Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[4bars]

I will get back to one of my original arguments. US is only using Ukraine to bleed out Russia without having to spend an american soul. I don´t think they are there to help

They are stretching the war as much as possible giving enough for Ukraine to survive without letting them lose or win enough

 

[atkar83]

I will get back to one of my original arguments. US is only using Ukraine to bleed out Russia without having to spend an american soul. I don´t think they are there to help

They are stretching the war as much as possible

How does providing this equipment not help. Without the US help so far (intel and equipment), Ukraine probably would have lost two years ago. Obviously its a big help to deplete the Russian army more, it helps with any future conflict scenario.

 

[Simbo]

I wanna take this video and ram it down the throats of every stupid fecking 'reporter' I've had to suffer through talking about negotiations, Ukraine going into Kursk 'to help negotiations' and all that crap. Give me a break.

Pretty much what I've been saying all along, its not that difficult. This war can only end through the defeat of the Russian army and Ukraine guaranteeing its own future security. Path to NATO sure, that's important, but its no guarantee while the threat of Trump/AfD/Le Pen/etc looms, as Poland have already concluded. Ukraine has to build its its own military deterrence so Russia can never threaten it again.

There is no other option, there is no feasible negotiation that can guarantee Ukraine's future security. Simple rationality, smothered by Russian bullshit in media circles around the world.

 

[DT12]

I will get back to one of my original arguments. US is only using Ukraine to bleed out Russia without having to spend an american soul. I don´t think they are there to help

They are stretching the war as much as possible giving enough for Ukraine to survive without letting them lose or win enough

I've been saying this for the last 2 and a half years and was denounced by the #SlavaUkraini brigade on here as peddling Russian propaganda. For posting the exact words of the US Secretary of Defence basically admitting that they had no strategy beyond "bleed Russia for as long as Ukraine can take it", that 'NATO' propagandist who's got so many of you believing his delusional bullshit demanded I be banned from the forum (while seemingly having no issue whatsoever with literal Ukrainian propaganda being spammed in here). Christ even Zelenskiy himself was clued up on the score once upon a time:

There are those in the West who don’t mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives" - Volodymyr Zelenskiy, March 27th 2022.

https://www.economist.com/europe/volodymyr-zelensky-on-why-ukraine-must-defeat-putin/21808448

Those of us with a scintilla of understanding of this conflict have been telling you for over a decade: Ukraine is going to be sacrificed. And while certain NATO 'analysts' spend day after day writing 75-paragraph posts about how "loool the Russian army is sooo hilariously incompetent!", his native Ukraine is being destroyed by that same "hilariously incompetent" Russian army while his beloved West looks on and lets it happen. A case in point: nobody from the West ever suggests the attacks on Israel by Iran represent an existential threat to freedom, democracy and the "rules-based international order", and yet they happily shoot down those rockets over Israeli airspace. Ukraine, on the other hand, we are told by these delusional morons is guarding global freedom itself. "If Ukraine loses, the entire international order will collapse and Putin will come for YOUR FREEDOM next!" This is the fatuous narrative they've been selling their populations to keep the tax dollars and euros flowing out the door for the last 30 months. And yet, as Zelensky has started asking on Twitter, "If so much hinges on our victory, why won't they do for us what they're prepared to do for Israel?" (will someone for the love of God answer the dumbass's question? He, Yermak and Podolyak have asked it about 10 times over the last 3 weeks).

The West has led Ukraine down the garden path. It was inevitable that they would do this. Ukraine could never defeat Russia without direct NATO involvement or without the quick collapse of the Russian economy, neither of which was ever going to happen. This was obvious back in 2022, but daring to suggest it brought upon you a yapping pack of rabid hyenas telling you that "you've never herd of Nevul Chaymberlin have you??? No negotiations!!!"

And now here we are, late 2024, with the West openly admitting that the best they can hope for now is to persuade Putin to negotiate with them. Countless dead and maimed Ukrainians (but who cares about that, eh Lindsey Graham? At least you killed a bunch of Russians too!), Ukraine has lost 12 trillion dollars of its assets and counting, the industrial base and natural resources that power its economy have been lost, millions of its people have left the country, "guardian of global democracy" Zelenskiy has purged the Rada and the Ukrainian media of any and all dissenting voices, his goons are hauling screaming young men out of Okean Elsi concerts and shooting dead men who try to flee across the border (while the military-aged sons of deputies post TikTok videos from Germany and the UK), they're saddled with literally unpayable debt for generations...great job, West. Another stellar bit of foreign policy ingenuity.

Finally, remember earlier this year when the EU denounced Victor Orban for daring to talk to Putin about ending the war ("NEVULL CHAYMBBEELINN!!!")? Well what do you know, for the 2nd time this month Olaf "No Negotiations!" Scholz has expressed a desire to call Putin to talk about ending the war.

https://kyivindependent.com/scholz-says-he-is-open-to-talk-to-putin-about-peace-in-ukraine/

Geniuses, all of them.

 

[Simbo]

A few here seem to think that conflict is won by call of duty style Kill/death ratios which is never how this works.

Just me I think? its one of the ways. This war is won when so much pressure is applied to Russia that something bursts. That thing might be their military, or it might be the economy, the oligarchs, the people, etc or Putin himself. But sustained killing of their troops with Ukraine protecting its own helps apply that pressure in all areas. This means retreating, not desperately trying to hold on to worthless territory, but GIVING IT UP if necessary. Using it as a resource to kill Russian troops in the most efficient manner possible. That's not me being uncaring for people's homes, that's how this ends, that's how innocent lives are saved.

I've not really been paying much attention of late, just hearing bits and pieces, so have been getting the impression Russia has made massive territorial gains recently, like everyone else I guess. I've just tallied up net territorial changes since the start of this year: 846km² for Russia. Which in a square would be 30km across, 18 miles. Adjust out Ukraine's Kursk gains and that makes 26 miles, across a 1,200km front line. For fecking hells sake, they've taken nothing.

 

[DT12]

This war can only end through the defeat of the Russian army

Off you go then, tough guy:

https://ildu.com.ua/

 

[TwoSheds]

I've been saying this for the last 2 and a half years and was denounced by the #SlavaUkraini brigade on here as peddling Russian propaganda. For posting the exact words of the US Secretary of Defence basically admitting that they had no strategy beyond "bleed Russia for as long as Ukraine can take it", that 'NATO' propagandist who's got so many of you believing his delusional bullshit demanded I be banned from the forum (while seemingly having no issue whatsoever with literal Ukrainian propaganda being spammed in here). Christ even Zelenskiy himself was clued up on the score once upon a time:

There are those in the West who don’t mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives" - Volodymyr Zelenskiy, March 27th 2022.

https://www.economist.com/europe/volodymyr-zelensky-on-why-ukraine-must-defeat-putin/21808448

Those of us with a scintilla of understanding of this conflict have been telling you for over a decade: Ukraine is going to be sacrificed. And while certain NATO 'analysts' spend day after day writing 75-paragraph posts about how "loool the Russian army is sooo hilariously incompetent!", his native Ukraine is being destroyed by that same "hilariously incompetent" Russian army whole his beloved West looks on and lets it happen. A case in point: nobody from the West ever suggests the attacks on Israel by Iran represent an existential threat to freedom, democracy and the "rules-based international order", and yet they happily shoot down those rockets over Israeli airspace. Ukraine, on the other hand, we are told by these delusional morons is guarding global freedom itself. "If Ukraine loses, the entire international order will collapse and Putin will come for YOUR FREEDOM next!" This is the fatuous narrative they've been selling their populations to keep the tax dollars and euros flowing out the door for the last 30 months. And yet, as Zelensky has started asking on Twitter, "If so much hinges on our victory, why won't they do for us what they're prepared to do for Israel?" (will someone for the love of God answer the dumbass's question? He, Yermak and Podolyak have asked it about 10 times over the last 3 weeks).

The West has led Ukraine down the garden path. It was inevitable that they would do this. Ukraine could never defeat Russia without direct NATO involvement or without the quick collapse of the Russian economy, neither of which was ever going to happen. This was obvious back in 2022, but daring to suggest it brought upon you a yapping pack of rabid hyenas telling you that "you've never herd of Nevul Chaymberlin have you??? No negotiations!!!"

And now here we are, late 2024, with the West openly admitting that the best they can hope for now is to persuade Putin to negotiate with them. Countless dead and maimed Ukrainians (but who cares about that, eh Lindsey Graham? At least you killed a bunch of Russians too!), Ukraine has lost 12 trillion dollars of its assets and counting, the industrial base and natural resources that power its economy have been lost, millions of its people have left the country, "guardian of global democracy" Zelenskiy has purged the Rada and the Ukrainian media of any and all dissenting voices, his goons are hauling screaming young men out of Okean Elsi concerts and shooting dead men who try to flee across the border (while the military-aged sons of deputies post TikTok videos from Germany and the UK), they're saddled with literally unpayable debt for generations...great job, West. Another stellar bit of foreign policy ingenuity.

Finally, remember earlier this year when the EU denounced Victor Orban for daring to talk to Putin about ending the war ("NEVULL CHAYMBBEELINN!!!")? Well what do you know, for the 2nd time this month Olaf "No Negotiations!" Scholz has expressed a desire to call Putin to talk about ending the war.

https://kyivindependent.com/scholz-says-he-is-open-to-talk-to-putin-about-peace-in-ukraine/

Geniuses, all of them.

It's good you're here to spread the gospel though.

 

[harms]

I've not really been paying much attention of late, just hearing bits and pieces, so have been getting the impression Russia has made large territorial gains lately, like everyone else I guess. I've just tallied up net territorial changes since the start of this year: 846km² for Russia. In a square that's 30km in a straight line, 18 miles. Adjust out Ukraine's Kursk gains and that makes 26 miles, across a 1,200km front line. For fecking hells sake... They've taken nothing.

That's an even worse way of estimating who's winning to be fair.

 

[DT12]

For fecking hells sake, they've taken nothing.

They are systematically stealing everything that powers Ukraine's entire economy.

https://www.reuters.com/markets/com...ans-advance-towards-key-coal-mine-2024-10-16/

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Simbo]

That's an even worse way of estimating who's winning to be fair.

Totally agree, everyone judging "who's winning" by these tiny territorial changes is the biggest annoyance I have with people reporting and commenting on this war, even more than the negotiation thing!

So its completely baffling when you look at how inconsequential the territorial changes actually are.

 

[foolsgold]

This war can only end through the defeat of the Russian army and Ukraine guaranteeing its own future security.

I totally agree with you on this point, I just don't see how Ukraine has the capacity to defeat the Russian army.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

I've been saying this for the last 2 and a half years and was denounced by the #SlavaUkraini brigade on here as peddling Russian propaganda. For posting the exact words of the US Secretary of Defence basically admitting that they had no strategy beyond "bleed Russia for as long as Ukraine can take it", that 'NATO' propagandist who's got so many of you believing his delusional bullshit demanded I be banned from the forum (while seemingly having no issue whatsoever with literal Ukrainian propaganda being spammed in here). Christ even Zelenskiy himself was clued up on the score once upon a time:

There are those in the West who don’t mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives" - Volodymyr Zelenskiy, March 27th 2022.

https://www.economist.com/europe/volodymyr-zelensky-on-why-ukraine-must-defeat-putin/21808448

Those of us with a scintilla of understanding of this conflict have been telling you for over a decade: Ukraine is going to be sacrificed. And while certain NATO 'analysts' spend day after day writing 75-paragraph posts about how "loool the Russian army is sooo hilariously incompetent!", his native Ukraine is being destroyed by that same "hilariously incompetent" Russian army whole his beloved West looks on and lets it happen. A case in point: nobody from the West ever suggests the attacks on Israel by Iran represent an existential threat to freedom, democracy and the "rules-based international order", and yet they happily shoot down those rockets over Israeli airspace. Ukraine, on the other hand, we are told by these delusional morons is guarding global freedom itself. "If Ukraine loses, the entire international order will collapse and Putin will come for YOUR FREEDOM next!" This is the fatuous narrative they've been selling their populations to keep the tax dollars and euros flowing out the door for the last 30 months. And yet, as Zelensky has started asking on Twitter, "If so much hinges on our victory, why won't they do for us what they're prepared to do for Israel?" (will someone for the love of God answer the dumbass's question? He, Yermak and Podolyak have asked it about 10 times over the last 3 weeks).

The West has led Ukraine down the garden path. It was inevitable that they would do this. Ukraine could never defeat Russia without direct NATO involvement or without the quick collapse of the Russian economy, neither of which was ever going to happen. This was obvious back in 2022, but daring to suggest it brought upon you a yapping pack of rabid hyenas telling you that "you've never herd of Nevul Chaymberlin have you??? No negotiations!!!"

And now here we are, late 2024, with the West openly admitting that the best they can hope for now is to persuade Putin to negotiate with them. Countless dead and maimed Ukrainians (but who cares about that, eh Lindsey Graham? At least you killed a bunch of Russians too!), Ukraine has lost 12 trillion dollars of its assets and counting, the industrial base and natural resources that power its economy have been lost, millions of its people have left the country, "guardian of global democracy" Zelenskiy has purged the Rada and the Ukrainian media of any and all dissenting voices, his goons are hauling screaming young men out of Okean Elsi concerts and shooting dead men who try to flee across the border (while the military-aged sons of deputies post TikTok videos from Germany and the UK), they're saddled with literally unpayable debt for generations...great job, West. Another stellar bit of foreign policy ingenuity.

Finally, remember earlier this year when the EU denounced Victor Orban for daring to talk to Putin about ending the war ("NEVULL CHAYMBBEELINN!!!")? Well what do you know, for the 2nd time this month Olaf "No Negotiations!" Scholz has expressed a desire to call Putin to talk about ending the war.

https://kyivindependent.com/scholz-says-he-is-open-to-talk-to-putin-about-peace-in-ukraine/

Geniuses, all of them.

Oh do feck off.

You don't give a single shit about the Ukrainian people, nor do you have any inclination of what people are going through.

You're just using this as a pretext to bash the West.

You act like Ukrainians have no agency, that we must abide by Russian's will and if we don't, we deserve to be crushed. That the only recourse out of this is we forever remain in a state of statis, that we must never progress as a nation. And if we, as a sovereign peoples, want to align with the West/EU? Then it's our fault and the West's fault for opening their arms to us, and that we as a people are not allowed to be free of the tyranny that Russia has imposed on us for centuries.

Who cares that Ukrainian civilians are being bombed by FPV's in all border towns and settlements. Who cares that Russia is ethnically cleansing Ukrainians in occupied territories. This is obviously all the fault of the West for opening their arms.

I've known US motivations for bringing Ukraine into their fold is not pure. And you know what? I, alongside most Ukrainians, do not give a feck. I do not give a feck why they help, how they help, what their motivations are for helping. The reality is, they are helping. Yes, they can do much more, and yes it's frustrating that they're politically unable to. But you know where we would be without the help? Buried.

Without Western influence in Ukraine we would have made no progress in the past decade and a half, still entirely run by pissant oligarchs (not that there still aren't loads of them flying around) with unstemmed corruption at every level, with no light at the end of the tunnel. We as a people want to be free of this shit, and the only way we can be free of this shit is to be free of Russia. Every single member of parliament voted for integration with the EU prior to Euromaidan. Every. Single. One. So no, it's not about the West, it's not about what their goals and intentions are for bringing us into the fold. We WANT to be in the fold.

Genuinely, I don't think I've ever wished ill will or genuine malice on anyone here, but sincerely feck you.

 

[VorZakone]

Oh do feck off.

You don't give a single shit about the Ukrainian people, nor do you have any inclination of what people are going through.

You're just using this as a pretext to bash the West.

You act like Ukrainians have no agency, that we must abide by Russian's will and if we don't, we deserve to be crushed. That the only recourse out of this is we forever remain in a state of statis, that we must never progress as a nation. And if we, as a sovereign peoples, want to align with the West/EU? Then it's our fault and the West's fault for opening their arms to us, and that we as a people are not allowed to be free of the tyranny that Russia has imposed on us for centuries.

Who cares that Ukrainian civilians are being bombed by FPV's in all border towns and settlements. Who cares that Russia is ethnically cleansing Ukrainians in occupied territories. This is obviously all the fault of the West for opening their arms.

I've known US motivations for bringing Ukraine into their fold is not pure. And you know what? I, alongside most Ukrainians, do not give a feck. I do not give a feck why they help, how they help, what their motivations are for helping. The reality is, they are helping. Yes, they can do much more, and yes it's frustrating that they're politically unable to. But you know where we would be without the help? Buried.

Without Western influence in Ukraine we would have made no progress in the past decade and a half, still entirely run by pissant oligarchs (not that there still aren't loads of them flying around) with unstemmed corruption at every level, with no light at the end of the tunnel. We as a people want to be free of this shit, and the only way we can be free of this shit is to be free of Russia. Every single member of parliament voted for integration with the EU prior to Euromaidan. Every. Single. One. So no, it's not about the West, it's not about what their goals and intentions are for bringing us into the fold. We WANT to be in the fold.

Genuinely, I don't think I've ever wished ill will or genuine malice on anyone here, but sincerely feck you.

I can't speak for him ofcourse but I assume that his point (and of others like him) is that the West should have refused to bring you into their fold. They should have said "no" to Ukraine's wishes to shift towards the West.

And that that would have been for your sake. It would have been the right thing to do to spare Ukraine a war.

They'll usually say you should have waited until Putin dies or something like that. But what's the guarantee that the next Russian leader doesn't make the same threats? "Be in my sphere of influence or else I'll wreck you". Where's the limit to that kind of reasoning? When is it enough? When is Ukraine "allowed" to join Western alliances and institutions?

 

[TwoSheds]

I can't speak for him ofcourse but I assume that his point (and of others like him) is that the West should have refused to bring you into their fold. They should have said "no" to Ukraine's wishes to shift towards the West.

And that that would have been for your sake. It would have been the right thing to do to spare Ukraine a war.

They'll usually say you should have waited until Putin dies or something like that. But what's the guarantee that the next Russian leader doesn't make the same threats? "Be in my sphere of influence or else I'll wreck you". Where's the limit to that kind of reasoning? When is it enough? When is Ukraine "allowed" to join Western alliances and institutions?

Tbf the error was made many years before Putin took power in not bringing Russia properly into the western fold themselves. Yeltsin was very pro-west and asked for a lot of economic help that didn't come even though he and Clinton were friends. Given that error of the 90s though, Russia still has no divine right to tell neighbouring countries what to do and its actions are utterly disgraceful and disgusting. If you think they're not the bad guy then you're either dimmer than a black hole or you're the bad guy yourself.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

I can't speak for him ofcourse but I assume that his point (and of others like him) is that the West should have refused to bring you into their fold. They should have said "no" to Ukraine's wishes to shift towards the West.

And that that would have been for your sake. It would have been the right thing to do to spare Ukraine a war.

They'll usually say you should have waited until Putin dies or something like that. But what's the guarantee that the next Russian leader doesn't make the same threats? "Be in my sphere of influence or else I'll wreck you". Where's the limit to that kind of reasoning? When is it enough? When is Ukraine "allowed" to join Western alliances and institutions?

Abhorrent point of view.

Basically condemning Ukraine to suffer either way.

 

[Simbo]

I totally agree with you on this point, I just don't see how Ukraine has the capacity to defeat the Russian army.

We're already seeing it. As sad and frustrating it is that they aren't getting more help to end this already, they are currently getting and producing enough of their own armaments to win. It just takes time unfortunately, and lives...

Ukraine isn't the side that has removed all aged restrictions from recruitment and mobilisation, emptied the prisons and now recruiting a foreign army/country to prop up its shortcomings. Not to mention the economic ticking clock, the billionaire "blood feuds" and all the rest of it.

Ukraine increased its "war tax" to 5% I heard today, up from 1.5%... The feck? Are they even trying yet?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Tbf the error was made many years before Putin took power in not bringing Russia properly into the western fold themselves. Yeltsin was very pro-west and asked for a lot of economic help that didn't come even though he and Clinton were friends. Given that error of the 90s though, Russia still has no divine right to tell neighbouring countries what to do and its actions are utterly disgraceful and disgusting. If you think they're not the bad guy then you're either dimmer than a black hole or you're the bad guy yourself.

The Americans tried, and provided a shit tonne of advisors to Yeltsin.

The problem was naivity and an underlying assumption that every nation was "ready" for a democratic institution and market liberalization.

Shock therapy was something that worked in the past, with South Korea, Taiwan, Chile etc.

They expected that with the cold war over, and a restructured democratic government, market liberalization would cause huge uptake in the economy.

What happened was the endemic corruption across all levels of Russian society, after centuries of this being "accepted practice", just meant the rise of the oligarchy and the looting of wealth from the people. The democratic governing structure was weak and had no experience in how to handle this. The institutions did not have the decades and decades of embedded culture that the Western countries did to put a stop to this. The rest, is history.

The reason why it worked in SK, Taiwan etc is that it was kind of forced upon them by the West. The US watched behind their shoulder and basically looked out for these issues and weeded them out relatively quickly. Even then, South Korea and Taiwan still has the corruption problem today as they did half a century ago, only it was far less damaging than it was to Russia. The West did not have oversight to Russia in the same way.

All this was also applicable to Ukraine, which basically followed the same pattern. It actually affected Ukraine worse than it did Russia.

EDIT -

Russia's response to this was "Bring back stability no matter what, we accept order and authoritarianism."

Ukraine's response was perseverance and a mindful population that the corruption problem was the blocker, not the system of governance and economic model.

 

[DT12]

Oh do feck off.

You don't give a single shit about the Ukrainian people, nor do you have any inclination of what people are going through.

You're just using this as a pretext to bash the West.

You act like Ukrainians have no agency, that we must abide by Russian's will and if we don't, we deserve to be crushed. That the only recourse out of this is we forever remain in a state of statis, that we must never progress as a nation. And if we, as a sovereign peoples, want to align with the West/EU? Then it's our fault and the West's fault for opening their arms to us, and that we as a people are not allowed to be free of the tyranny that Russia has imposed on us for centuries.

Who cares that Ukrainian civilians are being bombed by FPV's in all border towns and settlements. Who cares that Russia is ethnically cleansing Ukrainians in occupied territories. This is obviously all the fault of the West for opening their arms.

I've known US motivations for bringing Ukraine into their fold is not pure. And you know what? I, alongside most Ukrainians, do not give a feck. I do not give a feck why they help, how they help, what their motivations are for helping. The reality is, they are helping. Yes, they can do much more, and yes it's frustrating that they're politically unable to. But you know where we would be without the help? Buried.

Without Western influence in Ukraine we would have made no progress in the past decade and a half, still entirely run by pissant oligarchs (not that there still aren't loads of them flying around) with unstemmed corruption at every level, with no light at the end of the tunnel. We as a people want to be free of this shit, and the only way we can be free of this shit is to be free of Russia. Every single member of parliament voted for integration with the EU prior to Euromaidan. Every. Single. One. So no, it's not about the West, it's not about what their goals and intentions are for bringing us into the fold. We WANT to be in the fold.

Genuinely, I don't think I've ever wished ill will or genuine malice on anyone here, but sincerely feck you.

You can insult me all you like, I've noticed across multiple threads on here that that is your default setting when somebody disagrees with you (in no other personality on this entire forum is the gap between actual knowledge and arrogant condescension so pronounced as it is in you, and all your NATO gibberish doesn't change that), but it won't change the fact that the West is stringing you along. Everything you wrote is entirely irrelevant to that fact. They are stringing you along. I generally don't bother with you on here because you're a lost cause, your head is so full of NATO zeal and 6th-grade history it would take too much of my time and energy to deprogramme you, but you're absolutely delusional about the situation your country is in and WHY it is in it. You are about to become the latest victim of the West's intellectual bankruptcy when it comes to foreign policy.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

You can insult me all you like, I've noticed across multiple threads on here that that is your default setting when somebody disagrees with you (in no other personality on this entire forum is the gap between actual knowledge and arrogant condescension so pronounced as it is in you, and all your NATO gibberish doesn't change that), but it won't change the fact that the West is stringing you along. Everything you wrote is entirely irrelevant to that fact. They are stringing you along. I generally don't bother with you on here because you're a lost cause, your head is so full of NATO zeal and 6th-grade history it would take too much of my time and energy to deprogramme you, but you're absolutely delusional about the situation your country is in and WHY it is in it. You are about to become the latest victim of the West's intellectual bankruptcy when it comes to foreign policy.

Why do you post on here? You're not a Man Utd fan, you don't post about football or seem to care about it, and your entire presence on here is solely limited to blasting the West when it comes to Russia dicking on us...

I'm not even sure you're who you claim to be to be honest: Which Liverpudlian uses "6th grade" to describe schooling years?

 

[MoskvaRed]

Tbf the error was made many years before Putin took power in not bringing Russia properly into the western fold themselves. Yeltsin was very pro-west and asked for a lot of economic help that didn't come even though he and Clinton were friends. Given that error of the 90s though, Russia still has no divine right to tell neighbouring countries what to do and its actions are utterly disgraceful and disgusting. If you think they're not the bad guy then you're either dimmer than a black hole or you're the bad guy yourself.

I’ve no idea how we (the West) could have brought Russia into the fold. It wasn’t occupied territory like Germany and Japan in 1945, it didn’t (unlike Germany) undergo any process of coming to terms with the crimes of its past; most likely any additional aid we could have offered would have been stolen. The place is sui generis and the sooner we ignore the superficial trappings of European civilisation and acknowledge that fact, the better for us. We’re not necessarily doomed to eternal antagonism but we need to abandon illusions that Russia is a potential “normal European country” held back by circumstances or atrocious leadership. It’’s a Eurasian power with interests that may sometimes coincide and sometimes conflict with the West’s.

 

[nimic]

I will get back to one of my original arguments. US is only using Ukraine to bleed out Russia without having to spend an american soul. I don´t think they are there to help

They are stretching the war as much as possible giving enough for Ukraine to survive without letting them lose or win enough

It's not in the US interest to drag the war out, if an alternative is winning it. There are many considerations, and surely many of them are dumb, but I don't think that's one of them. If Russia was quickly defeated it would massively reduce the prestige of Russia's alternative world order, and boost the US and the West. This is not the Cold War, the US has no need to bleed Russia. The only reason to fear a Russian loss would be if you think the (nuclear) state is going to collapse.

 

[DT12]

Why do you post on here?

A) Because there is a chronic lack of sanity in this thread, and B) because this is a subject that I know about, and unlike you, I write only what I know. Hence you don't see me doing what you do, offering novel-length authoritative missives on everything from Israel to China to Iran to Palestine to Syria to why you can't be hit by lightning inside a football stadium (your finest hour by the way).

And I can return the question to you, making the colossal effort required to mask my grinding contempt for you NATO 'analysts': why are YOU posting on here from morning to night? You once sent me your resume (I still laugh about it) by way of illustrating your military expertise. Meanwhile you say your own family members are being shot dead by Ukrainian border guards, and terrified young men are being dragged kicking and screaming out of night clubs (you'll have seen the Okean Elsi clips from last weekend no doubt) by conscription officers. And here you are, mocking the Russian army as being "hilariously incompetent", posting thousands of words a day on every subject under the sun, you claim to have a military achievement record to rival Alexander the Great's..surely your country could use somebody with your fighting skills and experience, no? Instead of the middle-aged villagers Zelenskiy is reduced to calling up. Wouldn't that be a better use of your boundless knowledge of modern warcraft than spamming NATO infomercials in every thread on this forum all the livelong day?

Or is fighting the Russian army just a bit different to a coalition of advanced nations planning the carpet bombing of Iraqi farmers? Are you NATO boys not such tough guys then? (dammit, couldn't quite mask the contempt, but you did wish me ill. And listen Sunshine, you have no idea about my history so rein in your assumptions about my "anti-West" posts. There are actually people in this world who don't find the West as fabulously wonderful as you do and who shiver at the thought of there being no power or group of powers to hold it in check when it decides to go on another of its global "democracy" drives).

And spare me the bullshit about how "they won't let me have a Ukrainian passport", because you know damn well you don't need one to go and fight for Ukraine.

Answer if you want but don't feel obliged. Engaging with guys like you saddens me a little and I'm not planning to make a habit of it. It saddens me because you won't take any lessons from this war beyond yet another catalogue of utterly useless weapons statistics to be memorised.

I'm out for a while, it's late here.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

A) Because there is a chronic lack of sanity in this thread, and B) because this is a subject that I know about, and unlike you, I write only what I know. Hence you don't see me doing what you do, offering novel-length authoritative missives on everything from Israel to China to Iran to Palestine to Syria to why you can't be hit by lightning inside a football stadium (your finest hour by the way).

And I can return the question to you, making the colossal effort required to mask my grinding contempt for you NATO 'analysts': why are YOU posting on here from morning to night? You once sent me your resume (I still laugh about it) by way of illustrating your military expertise. Meanwhile you say your own family members are being shot dead by Ukrainian border guards, and terrified young men are being dragged kicking and screaming out of night clubs (you'll have seen the Okean Elsi clips from last weekend no doubt) by conscription officers. And here you are, mocking the Russian army as being "hilariously incompetent", posting thousands of words a day on every subject under the sun, you claim to have a military achievement record to rival Alexander the Great's..surely your country could use somebody with your fighting skills and experience, no? Instead of the middle-aged villagers Zelenskiy is reduced to calling up. Wouldn't that be a better use of your boundless knowledge of modern warcraft than spamming NATO infomercials in every thread on this forum all the livelong day?

Or is fighting the Russian army just a bit different to a coalition of nations planning the carpet bombing of Iraqi farmers? (dammit, couldn't quite mask the contempt, but you did wish me ill).

And spare me the bullshit about how "they won't let me have a Ukrainian passport", because you know damn well you don't need one to go and fight for Ukraine.

Answer if you want but don't feel obliged. Engaging with guys like you saddens me a little and I'm not planning to make a habit of it. It saddens me because you won't take any lessons from this war beyond yet another catalogue of utterly useless weapons statistics to be memorised.

I'm out for a while, it's late here.

Who says my job isn't directly related to the war?

Lessons? What Lessons? That the Russian state are a bunch of Imperialist pieces of shit who can't let go of the fact that one of their historical "partners" (I'm not even going to call it that properly because of the disdain Russia has always treated us) without going crazy and declaring war on them? (Sorry, not war, special operation.)

 

[nimic]

Who says my job isn't directly related to the war?

Lessons? What Lessons? That the Russian state are a bunch of Imperialist pieces of shit who can't let go of the fact that one of their historical "partners" (I'm not even going to call it that properly because of the disdain Russia has always treated us) without going crazy and declaring war on them? (Sorry, not war, special operation.)

Stop wasting your time. Use the ignore function like the rest of us.

 

[4bars]

How does providing this equipment not help. Without the US help so far (intel and equipment), Ukraine probably would have lost two years ago. Obviously its a big help to deplete the Russian army more, it helps with any future conflict scenario.

And that is why the US is not letting Ukraine lose but is flip flopping if it really wants Ukraine to war. It has definitely the means to tilt the scale in Ukraine

 

[AfonsoAlves]

And that is why the US is not letting Ukraine lose but is flip flopping if it really wants Ukraine to war. It has definitely the means to tilt the scale in Ukraine

The main blocker to this is politics.

Actually giving Ukraine the means will mean a huge investment that congress will need to approve.

It isn't just giving a brigades worth of Abrams + a brigades worth of M2A2's and 2 squadrons of F-16's.

It will mean a big increase in the US defense budget to actually backfill the equipment given and I don't think there's the political will for that.

 

[DT12]

Who says my job isn't directly related to the war?

I suppose that would explain the colossal shitshow it's become for Ukraine.

As for the rest, again, a facile 6th-grader's (forgive me, year 6 pupil's) understanding of the situation, and confirmation you're not going to take anything worth taking from this war beyond another catalogue of weapons porn to take into your next global fiasco.

Peace.

 

[4bars]

It's not in the US interest to drag the war out, if an alternative is winning it. There are many considerations, and surely many of them are dumb, but I don't think that's one of them. If Russia was quickly defeated it would massively reduce the prestige of Russia's alternative world order, and boost the US and the West. This is not the Cold War, the US has no need to bleed Russia. The only reason to fear a Russian loss would be if you think the (nuclear) state is going to collapse.

Not in the US interest in what sense? to the average Joe? I might agree but not for the military industry complex that they are having a field day selling to Israel and giving old stuff to Ukraine (surely new stuff) so the stocks can be renewed with new

Surely the post you quoted from me is too simplistic as it is the my paraph above but I think is a combination of factors like these 2, with also bleeding out the old enemy who lots of old politicians still have beef to and many

I can agree also that Russia being quickly defeated could be dangerous, but we are not there anymore. We are heading to 2 years and it doesn't seem that there is any plan to help in a more meaningful way, even if it is boots in the ground of some sorts. Not saying that it should be like this as I am no one to ask someone else to go die for a country, but half measures will not help Ukraine, though it is for Ukranians to decide. At the same time, I know the nuisances and the complexities that would mean "boots on the ground" but that is why I am posting in a football forum and I am not a military advisor

Ukraine is getting fecked and I don't trust the US for obvious historical reasons

 

[The Firestarter]

Peace

 

[4bars]

The main blocker to this is politics.

Actually giving Ukraine the means will mean a huge investment that congress will need to approve.

It isn't just giving a brigades worth of Abrams + a brigades worth of M2A2's and 2 squadrons of F-16's.

It will mean a big increase in the US defense budget to actually backfill the equipment given and I don't think there's the political will for that.

Yes, I developed a longer post regarding this, I don't pretend to know what it would entail and I know is not that simple. But certainly, so far is not enough and I don't think there is the will anywhere for being enough. And meanwhile, they enjoy seeing Russia struggling at expenses of Ukraine.

 

[harms]

I’ve no idea how we (the West) could have brought Russia into the fold. It wasn’t occupied territory like Germany and Japan in 1945, it didn’t (unlike Germany) undergo any process of coming to terms with the crimes of its past; most likely any additional aid we could have offered would have been stolen. The place is sui generis and the sooner we ignore the superficial trappings of European civilisation and acknowledge that fact, the better for us. We’re not necessarily doomed to eternal antagonism but we need to abandon illusions that Russia is a potential “normal European country” held back by circumstances or atrocious leadership. It’’s an Eurasian power with interests that may sometimes coincide and sometimes conflict with the West’s.

It’s very much imaginative history which is a complete pointless subject but people retroactively underestimate how close Russia was to becoming a long-term ally to the West — be it under Yeltsin or even under younger Putin (sounds so weird now but yes). Up until the 2006-2007, probably — the Munich speech is usually used as a point of no return. Medvedev’s time looked like a return to the same course with Obama, Jobs etc. meetings, but it was already very much artificial at that stage, I think.

That’s not to say that Putin was ever trying to build a democracy — he was very authoritarian from the start. But their interests (mostly fighting terrorism — that’s another controversial point given both U.S. & Russia’s responsibility for the rise of Al Quaeda & Chechen insurgence respectively) very much aligned… but Russia was still kept on a considerable distance by the West and at some point it decided to switch its path. Whenever that was always the intention by Putin remains to be a speculative point — perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn’t, but we’ll never know and now we’re at the point when all of that seems completely improbable.

As always, there is some truth to that propaganda narrative of the West refusing to accept us — not a lot, mind you, and the actual facts have been twisted to the point where they’re almost unrecognizable. But that’s how propaganda mostly works — take something real, however inconsequential, and create a Frankenstein monster out of it.

 

[MoskvaRed]

It’s very much imaginative history which is a complete pointless subject but people retroactively underestimate how close Russia was to becoming a long-term ally to the West — be it under Yeltsin or even under younger Putin (sounds so weird now but yes). Up until the 2006-2007, probably — the Munich speech is usually used as a point of no return. Medvedev’s time looked like a return to the same course with Obama, Jobs etc. meetings, but it was already very much artificial at that stage, I think.

That’s not to say that Putin was ever trying to build a democracy — he was very authoritarian from the start. But their interests (mostly fighting terrorism — that’s another controversial point given both U.S. & Russia’s responsibility for the rise of Al Quaeda & Chechen insurgence respectively) very much aligned… but Russia was still kept on a considerable distance by the West and at some point it decided to switch its path. Whenever that was always the intention by Putin remains to be a speculative point — perhaps it was, perhaps it wasn’t, but we’ll never know and now we’re at the point when all of that seems completely improbable.

As always, there is some truth to that propaganda narrative of the West refusing to accept us — not a lot, mind you, and the actual facts have been twisted to the point where they’re almost unrecognizable. But that’s how propaganda mostly works — take something real, however inconsequential, and create a Frankenstein monster out of it.

I agree that the Munich speech (and invasion of Georgia) was the explicit breaking off of rapprochement but I’m not sure an alliance could have been sustainable in any event. Whatever the points of common interest such as “the war against terror”, Russia’s great power/sphere of influence view of the world is not compatible with the European vision of a partnership of sovereign states across the continent. Such tensions were already evident in 2004 when Yushchenko was elected.

I’d love to be proved wrong on this issue by the way as, ultimately, it’s a lose lose scenario. Europe has a hostile neighbour and Russia falls ever more into reliance on China.

 

[Real Name]

Peace

He's precious, isnt he.

 

[harms]

I agree that the Munich speech (and invasion of Georgia) was the explicit breaking off of rapprochement but I’m not sure an alliance could have been sustainable in any event. Whatever the points of common interest such as “the war against terror”, Russia’s great power/sphere of influence view of the world is not compatible with the European vision of a partnership of sovereign states across the continent. Such tensions were already evident in 2004 when Yushchenko was elected.

I’d love to be proved wrong on this issue by the way as, ultimately, it’s a lose lose scenario. Europe has a hostile neighbour and Russia falls ever more into reliance on China.

You underestimate the enamourment by everything Western that happened in Russia in the 90's. Europe had integrated former empires into it, it integrated former Soviet countries into it... by the time that Putin became president it was probably a bit too late already but it's hard to judge that clearly since we retroactively know what happened to him* and the country itself. The first Maidan, as you've said, was the turning point and the Munich speech was the point of no-return.

* I'm not trying to say that Putin was good at any point of his political or spy career, mind you, I'm pretty sure that he was always an enormous c-t but he was quite pragmatic in the beginning before succumbing into the Ilyin-Gumilev inspired civilizational madness.

I don't think that Russia and Russians are intrinsically different from Europeans to a point where under the proper non-fascistic governance they wouldn't be able to get integrated into the European society. Look at Germany, Italy, Spain etc. — at some point those were also fascistic states with tons of historical ressentiment yet look at them now. It's all a bit futile now though since Putin isn't going nowhere, the Russian society is in a very bad place and the world-wide rise of right wing ideology doesn't fill me with hope either.

 

[VorZakone]

If confirmed, it would be North Korea’s first major participation in a foreign war. North Korea has 1.2 million troops, one of the largest militaries in the world, but it lacks actual combat experience.

 

[VorZakone]

The North Korean soldiers were issued Russian military uniforms and Russian-made weapons, and were also issued fake ID cards of residents of the Yakutia and Buryatia regions of Siberia (Appendix 5) who looked similar to North Koreans. It appears that they disguised themselves as Russian soldiers to hide the fact that they were deployed to the battlefield.

 

[4bars]

All this Iran and korean participation in Ukraine has to come with some benefits for them. It would be so easy for them to ask nuclear warheads and it would be on the benefit of Russia that they would have them as it would be a menace to its enemies

 

[nimic]

All this Iran and korean participation in Ukraine has to come with some benefits for them. It would be so easy for them to ask nuclear warheads and it would be on the benefit of Russia that they would have them as it would be a menace to its enemies

That'd pretty much guarantee full western involvement in Ukraine, and a swift defeat for Russia. I doubt they're crazy enough to do it.

 

[4bars]

That'd pretty much guarantee full western involvement in Ukraine, and a swift defeat for Russia. I doubt they're crazy enough to do it.

What do you mean? how US can avoid this transaction?

 

[nimic]

What do you mean? how US can avoid this transaction?

They can't avoid it, but it would cross a red line and be considered a hostile and aggressive enough act that I am sure the US would immediately go in with full force in Ukraine, if they discovered it.