Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

This will sound flippant but I'm being perfectly serious: today is the 2nd anniversary of the invasion. On this day many Western leaders (minus Biden) will do what they love to do more than anything else in the world - they will gather together in Kyiv, get their photo taken with Zelenskiy, and give the exact same speeches they've been giving for 2 years. They will talk about "Russia's brutal and unprovoked aggression". They will talk about "freedom and democracy themselves" being at stake. And, their beloved catchphrase: they will talk about standing with Ukraine "for as long as it takes".

My proposal is this: President Biden gives a live interview, this evening, to Ukraine's main news channel. During this interview he is asked the questions that no American network or newspaper will ever, ever ask him:

1. President Biden, your Administration has said that if Ukraine loses this war, Putin will go on to invade NATO countries such as the Baltics and/or Poland and American soldiers will have to fight Russia. Yes or no, do you seriously believe this?

2. Yes or no: is America's aim in this conflict for Ukraine to win the war and Russia to lose the war? If yes, clearly define "win" and "lose" in this context. If your definition is "That's for Ukraine to decide", then...

3. Any time you are asked what the ultimate aim is in this conflict, you always say: "That's for Ukraine to decide". But we've already decided: our aim is to reclaim all our territory according to 1991 borders. So, yes or no: is America's aim for Ukraine to reclaim all of its territory to 1991 borders?

4. You have said that the 61 billion dollars in aid being held up in Congress will lead to Ukrainian "success" - define "success" in this context. What will 61 billion dollars do this year that 113 billion dollars didn't do over the last 2 years?

5. You have said that Ukraine must secure "a just and lasting peace" - define "a just and lasting peace". If your answer is "That's for Ukraine to decide", please refer back to question #3.

6. Three different reporters asked John Kirby yesterday why your administration continues to say you "haven't taken the long-range ATACMs off the table". Ukraine continues to beg you for them. Why will you only commit to "not taking them off the table", and not simply send them to us now when we're asking for them? If you genuinely believe this is an existential fight for the West, why aren't you giving us everything we need to fight it for you now, when we need it?

Russia asks North Korea and Iran for weapons and they receive a million artillery shells literally the following weak. You mock Putin for this and tell us it is indicative of Russia's "weakness". Ukraine begs a coalition of the world's 54 wealthiest countries to supply us with anything you have, and we're told: "Maaaybe we can get you 300,000 shells by March". This, you tell us, is Ukraine's "strength". Russia's allies are giving Russia what it needs. Ukraine's allies are not giving Ukraine what it needs. So which alliance is "weak" here?

7. Yes or no: do you seriously believe Ukraine can win this war - as defined in question #3 - without any NATO boots on the ground AND without Ukraine striking anywhere on Russian territory?

8. Last and most important: you are on record as saying, approximately thirteen thousand times, "we will support Ukraine for as long as it takes". Clearly say now: for as long as it takes to do WHAT? What is the West's strategy here, beyond meaningless prattle about "as long as it takes for a just and lasting peace"?


If Biden does not clearly answer any of those questions, my proposal is that Ukraine unconditionally surrenders to Russia tomorrow morning. The rationale should be: you're asking us to "defend the entire Western world" from Russia but you're not providing us with the means to do it, even though you have these means. And so rather than asking us to fight Russia on your behalf, you can now fight Russia on ours, as you suggested you would in question #1. It makes more sense for us to do this rather than than be slowly murdered as a country in a war we literally cannot win due to your inaction and indecision. The Palestinians are already facing the propsect of Donald Trump being the one to negotiate their fate. We're not waiting to go down the same path.


I wrote earlier in this thread that Ukraine is going to lose this war, and the primary reason is that Russia is absolutely laser-focused on its goals, whereas the West has no idea what it wants out of this conflict. It cannot define "success" for Ukraine and it cannot define "victory" for Ukraine. The West's strategy can be summed up as: "Let's just keep Ukraine in the fight for as long as possible and kind of hope something miraculous happens in Russia to change the situation". That is why it's going to be nauseating today watching all those 'foreign leaders' in Ukraine droning on about how "we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes to achieve victory", and not one member of the carefully selected media will press them to define what any of it means.

:lol:

I get the situation is desperate but this is lunacy.

Biden isn't responsible for everything in the world. Right now unfortunately he can't even control what's happening in his own government, with the speaker of the house or whatever he's called seemingly bought and paid for by Putin.

That situation shouldn't determine whether Ukrainians keep fighting or not, they need to try to get the best possible terms from any deal, win or lose. It would be a complete disaster if they were to surrender unconditionally, I can't believe any rational person believes otherwise frankly.
 
I am not asking Biden to be responsible for everything in the world and I am not asking him to control what's happening in Congress. I am asking him to do what he is perfectly capable of doing: to define what his Administration's goals are in this Ukrainian conflict and to outline his strategy for achieving them. If he is unable to do even this then he needs to stop self-applying the "leader of the free world" epithet. You can't win a war when you don't even know what "win" means. Russia knows what "win" means which is why they're going to do it.
 
I am not asking Biden to be responsible for everything in the world and I am not asking him to control what's happening in Congress. I am asking him to do what he is perfectly capable of doing: to define what his Administration's goals are in this Ukrainian conflict and to outline his strategy for achieving them. If he is unable to do even this then he needs to stop self-applying the "leader of the free world" epithet. You can't win a war when you don't even know what "win" means. Russia knows what "win" means which is why they're going to do it.
Are you under the impression that by posting here you are negotiating with Biden or with anyone from his cabinet?
 
:lol:

I get the situation is desperate but this is lunacy.

Biden isn't responsible for everything in the world. Right now unfortunately he can't even control what's happening in his own government, with the speaker of the house or whatever he's called seemingly bought and paid for by Putin.

That situation shouldn't determine whether Ukrainians keep fighting or not, they need to try to get the best possible terms from any deal, win or lose. It would be a complete disaster if they were to surrender unconditionally, I can't believe any rational person believes otherwise frankly.

Deja vu, he sucks a few people in with some semi interesting and intelligent sounding posts, gets the "good to hear an opinion from the other side" comment, then gets carried away and posts some lunacy with heavy focus on the US, as Russian trolls always do.
 
I am not asking Biden to be responsible for everything in the world and I am not asking him to control what's happening in Congress. I am asking him to do what he is perfectly capable of doing: to define what his Administration's goals are in this Ukrainian conflict and to outline his strategy for achieving them. If he is unable to do even this then he needs to stop self-applying the "leader of the free world" epithet. You can't win a war when you don't even know what "win" means. Russia knows what "win" means which is why they're going to do it.

Russia know what win means? Their goals are just as nebulous as the Ukrainians'. Obviously they want to win completely and subjugate Ukraine but what they would actually accept will depend on the status of their armed forces and economy by the end of this war vis a vis Ukraine's. They are no different to the Ukrainians themselves who want complete expulsion of Russian forces but might eventually settle for some sort of compromise depending on the situation of the war. Your take is that of someone who requires an extra wit.
 
This will sound flippant but I'm being perfectly serious: today is the 2nd anniversary of the invasion. On this day many Western leaders (minus Biden) will do what they love to do more than anything else in the world - they will gather together in Kyiv, get their photo taken with Zelenskiy, and give the exact same speeches they've been giving for 2 years. They will talk about "Russia's brutal and unprovoked aggression". They will talk about "freedom and democracy themselves" being at stake. And, their beloved catchphrase: they will talk about standing with Ukraine "for as long as it takes".

My proposal is this: President Biden gives a live interview, this evening, to Ukraine's main news channel. During this interview he is asked the questions that no American network or newspaper will ever, ever ask him:

1. President Biden, your Administration has said that if Ukraine loses this war, Putin will go on to invade NATO countries such as the Baltics and/or Poland and American soldiers will have to fight Russia. Yes or no, do you seriously believe this?

2. Yes or no: is America's aim in this conflict for Ukraine to win the war and Russia to lose the war? If yes, clearly define "win" and "lose" in this context. If your definition is "That's for Ukraine to decide", then...

3. Any time you are asked what the ultimate aim is in this conflict, you always say: "That's for Ukraine to decide". But we've already decided: our aim is to reclaim all our territory according to 1991 borders. So, yes or no: is America's aim for Ukraine to reclaim all of its territory to 1991 borders?

4. You have said that the 61 billion dollars in aid being held up in Congress will lead to Ukrainian "success" - define "success" in this context. What will 61 billion dollars do this year that 113 billion dollars didn't do over the last 2 years?

5. You have said that Ukraine must secure "a just and lasting peace" - define "a just and lasting peace". If your answer is "That's for Ukraine to decide", please refer back to question #3.

6. Three different reporters asked John Kirby yesterday why your administration continues to say you "haven't taken the long-range ATACMs off the table". Ukraine continues to beg you for them. Why will you only commit to "not taking them off the table", and not simply send them to us now when we're asking for them? If you genuinely believe this is an existential fight for the West, why aren't you giving us everything we need to fight it for you now, when we need it?

Russia asks North Korea and Iran for weapons and they receive a million artillery shells literally the following weak. You mock Putin for this and tell us it is indicative of Russia's "weakness". Ukraine begs a coalition of the world's 54 wealthiest countries to supply us with anything you have, and we're told: "Maaaybe we can get you 300,000 shells by March". This, you tell us, is Ukraine's "strength". Russia's allies are giving Russia what it needs to win the war. Ukraine's allies are not giving Ukraine what it needs to win the war. So which alliance is "weak" here?

7. Yes or no: do you seriously believe Ukraine can win this war - as defined in question #3 - without any NATO boots on the ground AND without Ukraine striking anywhere on Russian territory?

8. Last and most important: you are on record as saying, approximately thirteen thousand times, "we will support Ukraine for as long as it takes". Clearly say now: for as long as it takes to do WHAT? What is the West's strategy here, beyond meaningless prattle about "as long as it takes for a just and lasting peace"?


If Biden does not clearly answer any of those questions, my proposal is that Ukraine unconditionally surrenders to Russia tomorrow morning. The rationale should be: you're asking us to "defend the entire Western world" from Russia but you're not providing us with the means to do it, even though you have these means. And so rather than asking us to fight Russia on your behalf, you can now fight Russia on ours, as you suggested you would in question #1. It makes more sense for us to do this rather than than be slowly murdered as a country in a war we literally cannot win due to your inaction and indecision. The Palestinians are already facing the propsect of Donald Trump being the one to negotiate their fate. We're not waiting to go down the same path.


I wrote earlier in this thread that Ukraine is going to lose this war, and the primary reason is that Russia is absolutely laser-focused on its goals, whereas the West has no idea what it wants out of this conflict. It cannot define "success" for Ukraine and it cannot define "victory" for Ukraine. The West's strategy can be summed up as: "Let's just keep Ukraine in the fight for as long as possible and kind of hope something miraculous happens in Russia to change the situation". That is why it's going to be nauseating today watching all those 'foreign leaders' in Ukraine droning on about how "we will stand with Ukraine for as long as it takes to achieve victory", and not one member of the carefully selected media will press them to define what any of it means.

Expressing your opinions in the voice of the Ukrainians in this way is bizarre. Absolutely bizarre.
 
Russia know what win means? Their goals are just as nebulous as the Ukrainians'.
The Ukrainians' goals are not nebulous. They are crystal clear: returning all their 1991 territory. They repeatedly and unwaveringly state this.

The Russians' goals are not nebulous. They are crystal clear: neutrality, demilitarisation, recognition of annexed territories and overthrow of Zelenskiy government. They repeatedly and unwaveringly state this.

Now can anyone tell me what the West's goals are? Beyond "supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes" while the country and its people get blown to pieces?
 
Are you under the impression that by posting here you are negotiating with Biden or with anyone from his cabinet?
No, I'm under the impression that this is a discussion forum where people share their opinions on the Russia-Ukraine war using the dying art of not-just-spamming-facile-tweets-everywhere.
 
The Ukrainians' goals are not nebulous. They are crystal clear: returning all their 1991 territory. They repeatedly and unwaveringly state this.

The Russians' goals are not nebulous. They are crystal clear: neutrality, demilitarisation, recognition of annexed territories and overthrow of Zelenskiy government. They repeatedly and unwaveringly state this.

Now can anyone tell me what the West's goals are? Beyond "supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes" while the country and its people get blown to pieces?
The west are not an active part in this conflict, they don't have any goals. Ukraine is a sovereign country, they and they alone decide what their goals are.
 
No, I'm under the impression that this is a discussion forum where people share their opinions on the Russia-Ukraine war using the dying art of not-just-spamming-facile-tweets-everywhere.
Cool, the second part is completely irrelevant to the question though.
Are you at least vaguely aware that in your amazing post you seriously asked Biden to conduct a live interview tonight to apparently prove your point? You do see that without the 'yes' answer to the first question it doesn't really work?
 
The west are not an active part in this conflict, they don't have any goals. Ukraine is a sovereign country, they and they alone decide what their goals are.
Re: your first sentence. So the outcome of this war is not an existential question for the West, correct? Western leaders are bullshitting about that?

Re: the 2nd. Ukraine have stated their goals, but they are literally unachievable. So what do you suggest should happen next?
 
Deja vu, he sucks a few people in with some semi interesting and intelligent sounding posts, gets the "good to hear an opinion from the other side" comment, then gets carried away and posts some lunacy with heavy focus on the US, as Russian trolls always do.
Don't worry, I'm off out soon and you can return to a thread full of laughing emojis, ad hominem insults, delusional tweets from Ben Hodges and Ilya Ponomorenko, and your bedrock conviction that anyone who deviates from the incoherent Western narrative about this war is a Russian bot or troll.

I'll leave you with one last link, from yesterday - the number of homeless Ukrainian refugees in the UK has now reached 15,000, after "the novelty of this war" (not my phrase) wore off for the #SlavaUkraini brigade.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ilies-homeless-relationships-british-sponsors

Peace.
 
Don't worry, I'm off out soon and you can return to a thread full of laughing emojis, ad hominem insults, delusional tweets from Ben Hodges and Ilya Ponomorenko, and your bedrock conviction that anyone who deviates from the incoherent Western narrative about this war is a Russian bot or troll.

I'll leave you with one last link, from yesterday - the number of homeless Ukrainian refugees in the UK has now reached 15,000, after "the novelty of this war" (not my phrase) wore off for the #SlavaUkraini brigade.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...ilies-homeless-relationships-british-sponsors

Peace.

What a beleaguered martyr you are, truly.
 
The Ukrainians' goals are not nebulous. They are crystal clear: returning all their 1991 territory. They repeatedly and unwaveringly state this.

The Russians' goals are not nebulous. They are crystal clear: neutrality, demilitarisation, recognition of annexed territories and overthrow of Zelenskiy government. They repeatedly and unwaveringly state this.

Now can anyone tell me what the West's goals are? Beyond "supporting Ukraine for as long as it takes" while the country and its people get blown to pieces?

Stated goals are not the same as goals. Obviously complete obliteration of the opposition would be lovely and all but what would they settle for? I'm sure Biden would love the Russian forces to be annihilated but it's not clear how that would happen is it? I'm sensing arguing with you on this is pointless though so I'll let you keep going.
 
Sorry folks, can we just go back to the sheer daftness that Ukraine would give up the war to prove a point?

Like, give up their sovereignty to the nation that has already committed mass murders and countless war crimes to prove a point. Roll over and get tortured. To prove a point.
 
The west are not an active part in this conflict, they don't have any goals. Ukraine is a sovereign country, they and they alone decide what their goals are.
Actually, sorry, one last point about this comment.

"Ukraine and Ukraine alone" get to decide what their goals are when it is "Ukraine and Ukraine alone" who are paying for the fight. When it's Western taxpayers paying for it, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to ask their leaders what the actual strategy and endgame is, especially when those same leaders have shifted the narrative from "the best outcome is for Ukraine to lose as quickly as possible" (Olaf Scholz back in February 2022) to a hysterical but suitably dissent-killing "the entirety of global freedom and democracy is at stake if we stop financing this war". If the stakes are as high as you claim, why do you have absolutely no coherent strategy for Ukrainian victory? That seems to me to be a reasonable question for Biden, Sunak, Macron and Scholz.
 
Sorry folks, can we just go back to the sheer daftness that Ukraine would give up the war to prove a point?

Like, give up their sovereignty to the nation that has already committed mass murders and countless war crimes to prove a point. Roll over and get tortured. To prove a point.
What's your solution? What should Ukraine do now?
 
Sorry folks, can we just go back to the sheer daftness that Ukraine would give up the war to prove a point?

Like, give up their sovereignty to the nation that has already committed mass murders and countless war crimes to prove a point. Roll over and get tortured. To prove a point.
Also, since this was your second post characterising my points this way and hence you're clearly committed to this stupidity, I'll put you on the spot: what "point" would Ukraine be making by surrendering under the circumstances I described?
 
Also, since this was your second post characterising my points this way and hence you're clearly committed to this stupidity, I'll put you on the spot: what "point" would Ukraine be making by surrendering under the circumstances I described?

That they're as thick as a guy on a football forum presumably.
 
Also, since this was your second post characterising my points this way and hence you're clearly committed to this stupidity, I'll put you on the spot: what "point" would Ukraine be making by surrendering under the circumstances I described?
The point that you described in your lengthy post, of course.
 
We're reaching the stalemate phase. Or at least that's probably the more "positive" look at it, as it's more viable Ukraine to lose more territories than to win it back.

Now when it comes to peace talks, I'm not sure we are there yet. Either way if it comes to negotiations, Ukraine (or what's left of it) should become a NATO member to have some future guarantees at least. No way around it.
 
Re: your first sentence. So the outcome of this war is not an existential question for the West, correct? Western leaders are bullshitting about that?
No this war is not an existential threat to any western nation besides Ukraine. But if Russia is allowed any sort of win in Ukraine they will move on to the next target like they always do.
Maybe Moldavia, Maybe some of the Baltic countries, or maybe one of the Nordic countries.

Re: the 2nd. Ukraine have stated their goals, but they are literally unachievable. So what do you suggest should happen next?
That's your opinion. I have a different one.
 
Actually, sorry, one last point about this comment.

"Ukraine and Ukraine alone" get to decide what their goals are when it is "Ukraine and Ukraine alone" who are paying for the fight. When it's Western taxpayers paying for it, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to ask their leaders what the actual strategy and endgame is, especially when those same leaders have shifted the narrative from "the best outcome is for Ukraine to lose as quickly as possible" (Olaf Scholz back in February 2022) to a hysterical but suitably dissent-killing "the entirety of global freedom and democracy is at stake if we stop financing this war". If the stakes are as high as you claim, why do you have absolutely no coherent strategy for Ukrainian victory? That seems to me to be a reasonable question for Biden, Sunak, Macron and Scholz.
As a Russian taxpayer maybe you should be more concerned where your money is going instead of mine, I'm perfectly fine with paying for Ukraines defence.
 
So all you have is more fatuous ad hominem. I'll leave you to it.

:lol: big words don't actually make you sound clever.

I should probably note that one down for an album title.
 
Comrade @DT12 reminds me of that Monchengladbach fan who posted exclusively about the Saudi League. Some years ago comrade @DT12 made some generic Everton posts and then turned into russian troll farm bot. Perhaps comrade @DT12 stop supporting them when Bilyaletdinov left Everton.
 
Comrade @DT12 reminds me of that Monchengladbach fan who posted exclusively about the Saudi League. Some years ago comrade @DT12 made some generic Everton posts and then turned into russian troll farm bot. Perhaps comrade @DT12 stop supporting them when Bilyaletdinov left Everton.
Both of them sounded like they really want to convince themselves of something instead of having an actual discussion. Troll farms work in a completely different way.
 
Both of them sounded like they really want to convince themselves of something instead of having an actual discussion. Troll farms work in a completely different way.
I think he's the FSB mastermind behind the Sims cards plot

FRPytH1WUAAhrb1.jpg:large
 
We're reaching the stalemate phase. Or at least that's probably the more "positive" look at it, as it's more viable Ukraine to lose more territories than to win it back.

Now when it comes to peace talks, I'm not sure we are there yet. Either way if it comes to negotiations, Ukraine (or what's left of it) should become a NATO member to have some future guarantees at least. No way around it.

I doubt a stalemate would work for either side at this point. Even though Putin appears desperate to stop the fighting so he can somehow spin his calamitous attempt at taking over all of Ukraine as some sort of win domestically, he hasn't really taken over much in the way of sizable Ukrainian cities throughout all of this spare perhaps Mariupol. The rest is largely a swath of agrarian land in the south. The Ukrainians on the other hand couldn't spin a ceasefire as a win either, as they've taken the position that they want to reclaim all their stolen land. Therefore, its highly likely the fighting will continue until one side run out of resources.
 
Don't worry, I'm off out soon and you can return to a thread full of laughing emojis, ad hominem insults, delusional tweets from Ben Hodges and Ilya Ponomorenko, and your bedrock conviction that anyone who deviates from the incoherent Western narrative about this war is a Russian bot or troll.

I’d like to see you stick around for what it’s worth. At the same time it would be nice to see you acknowledge some of the stuff you got badly wrong in your bullish posts from May and June 2022 before you pretty much disappeared from the thread for about a year, during which Ukraine did regain a significant amount of territory. Especially since you clearly delight in pointing out others’ wayward predictions.

I also think some of the grief you’re getting here is due to the feeling that you’re basically in support of Russia’s war aims, whatever the reality of the situation. Perhaps some clarification from you on that point would help move things forward.
 
All the real politic talk doesn't excuse Russia creating terror in a country and causing people to lose their homes and country. I don't care if its the us or Russia whoever, its wrong.
 
We're reaching the stalemate phase. Or at least that's probably the more "positive" look at it, as it's more viable Ukraine to lose more territories than to win it back.

Now when it comes to peace talks, I'm not sure we are there yet. Either way if it comes to negotiations, Ukraine (or what's left of it) should become a NATO member to have some future guarantees at least. No way around it.

The most likely near-term outcome I can see is a ceasefire and frozen conflict along the lines of those elsewhere in the post-Soviet region, with lines held not significantly different from where they currently stand and no mutual recognition or genuine peace process. In that event, both sides will be waiting to see how long-terms trends and shifts play into their goals, and wait for the right moment to strike, i.e. Azerbaijan last year. But we could be talking decades. Of course the obvious wildcard there is Trump, and I’d be unwilling to even speculate how things might go should he regain the Presidency.
 
Nobody should really be reminded of these things, but good when someone takes the time.

 
I doubt a stalemate would work for either side at this point. Even though Putin appears desperate to stop the fighting so he can somehow spin his calamitous attempt at taking over all of Ukraine as some sort of win domestically, he hasn't really taken over much in the way of sizable Ukrainian cities throughout all of this spare perhaps Mariupol. The rest is largely a swath of agrarian land in the south. The Ukrainians on the other hand couldn't spin a ceasefire as a win either, as they've taken the position that they want to reclaim all their stolen land. Therefore, its highly likely the fighting will continue until one side run out of resources.

Tbh I disagree on the part that Putin hasn’t taken much. Yes not many big cities but Donbas region along with Kherson, Zaporizhzhia and Luhansk have a lot of natural resources like coal gas and wheat (although safe to say that won’t grow much in foreseeable future) and that resources can be pumped back to the war machine in the future.
Key point is also keeping the access to the Dnpro river and supply of fresh water to Crimea, which is key for keeping control over Sea of Azov.

On the other hand naturally Ukraine doesn’t want to concede Crimea let alone some of their most important regions in terms of natural resources.

The stalemate needs to be resolved at some point, one way or another, as unless the support for Ukraine stops (unlikely) or the regime changes in Russia (unlikely) not much will change on the map.

Russian forces will continue to fortificate the gained territories, making it harder to Ukraine to win it back, especially with less resources, compared to last year.
In the same time considering some of the recent outcomes on the front, Putin is unlikely to gain large part of the map, apart from occasional village here and there.

Running out of resources of course depends on Ukraine to continue to receive support and to me it’s given one way or another.
Putin is unlikely to run out either so it will probably drag another couple of years.