Jamie Roberts should be nowhere near selection.
Rugby 2017 Discussion
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Warburton is captain.
Surprised there's a very good chance that Joseph is missing out, when Robers and te'o are in
Yeah looks like te'o is definitely in, a jersey arrived at a certain club this morning.
Lions Squad 2017- Backs
Backs: Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Jonathan Davies, Owen Farrell, Lee Halfpenny, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Jonathan Joseph, Conor Murray, George North, Jack Nowell, Jared Payne, Jonathan Sexton, Tommy Seymour, Ben T’eo, Anthony Watson, Rhys Webb, Liam Williams, Ben Youngs
Rumours wrong Joseph is in
Backs
Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Jonathan Davies, Owen Farrell, Lee Halfpenny, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Jonathan Joseph, Conor Murray, George North, Jack Nowell, Jared Payne, Jonathan Sexton, Tommy Seymour, Ben T’eo, Anthony Watson, Rhys Webb, Liam Williams, Ben Youngs
Forwards
Rory Best, Dan Cole, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Marler, Jack McGrath, Ross Moriarty, Sean O’Brien, Peter O’Mahony, Ken Owens, Kyle Sinckler, CJ Stander, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, Sam Warburton (captain).
Backs
Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Jonathan Davies, Owen Farrell, Lee Halfpenny, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Jonathan Joseph, Conor Murray, George North, Jack Nowell, Jared Payne, Jonathan Sexton, Tommy Seymour, Ben T’eo, Anthony Watson, Rhys Webb, Liam Williams, Ben Youngs
Forwards
Rory Best, Dan Cole, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Marler, Jack McGrath, Ross Moriarty, Sean O’Brien, Peter O’Mahony, Ken Owens, Kyle Sinckler, CJ Stander, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, Sam Warburton (captain).
Lions Squad 2017 - Forwards
And the forwards.
Rory Best, Dan Cole, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Marler, Jack McGrath, Ross Moriarty, Sean O’Brien, Peter O’Mahony, Ken Owens, Kyle Sinckler, CJ Stander, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, Sam Warburton (captain).
Rory Best, Dan Cole, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Marler, Jack McGrath, Ross Moriarty, Sean O’Brien, Peter O’Mahony, Ken Owens, Kyle Sinckler, CJ Stander, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Billy Vunipola, Sam Warburton (captain).
Good stuff. Those rumours about Roberts and Earls were scaring me.
Though Halfpenny shouldn't be there and Scotland will be disappointed with their representation.
Though Halfpenny shouldn't be there and Scotland will be disappointed with their representation.
16 English players, 12 from Wales, 11 Irish and 2 Scots
It's a disgrace only 2 Scottish players have made the squad this year. How on Earth there are 12 Welsh players selected is beyond me (I know the obvious connection to Gatland, but c'mon to feck)
Pretty close
Agreed. Very surprised not to see Hamish Watson and Jonny Gray included. 2 out of 41 is poor considering how good that team was against Ireland and Wales. For what it's worth I don't think many of those 12 Welsh lads will make the match day 23, maybe 3 at most.
Other then that I was definitely wrong on the squad. Out side of the lack of Scots, Launchbury not going nothing much I disagree with.
Also media trying to make a big deal about Hartley not being selected, don't think anyone is really that surprised. I say that as a fan of his captaincy.
No surprise 12 Welsh made the squad given who the coach is.Don't think Halfpenny or Davies deserve to be there.ben Te'o another surprise.
Scotland surely should have had more guys picked such as Watson, the Greys, etc etc.
Scotland surely should have had more guys picked such as Watson, the Greys, etc etc.
Launchbury will captain this lot in '21.
On the basis of the squad that was just picked, my first XV (What I would do, not what Gatland will do) would be:
That's a breakdown of England (10), Ireland (7), Wales (5) and Scotland (1).
Just a few thoughts on the official Lions squad:
- Mako Vunipola
- Jamie George
- Tadhg Furlong
- Maro Itoje
- Alun Wyn Jones
- CJ Stander
- Justin Tipuric
- Billy Vunipola
- Conor Murray
- Johnny Sexton
- Liam Williams
- Owen Farrell
- Robbie Henshaw
- Elliot Daly
- Stuart Hogg
- Rory Best
- Jack McGrath
- Kyle Sinckler
- George Kruis
- Taulupe Faletau
- Rhys Webb
- Jonathan Joseph
- Ben Te'o
That's a breakdown of England (10), Ireland (7), Wales (5) and Scotland (1).
Just a few thoughts on the official Lions squad:
- Scotland can feel hard done by. On a qualitative basis (not on a quantitative basis i.e. the Six Nations table), I'd say that they are the third best side in Europe (Although this may have more to do with systematic quality as opposed to individual quality). Players like Jonny Gray and Hamish Watson were both extremely unfortunate to miss out. Then you have the likes of Duncan Taylor who I think was injured for a large part of this season. Had he been fit for the Six Nations, he likely could have been on the plane to NZ. Mind you, this could be a source of motivation for the Scots under Gregor Townsend; Townsend should further improve a side which has improved quite significantly over the course of Vern Cotter's time in charge.
- 12 Welsh players is definitely too many. IMO, Leigh Halfpenny, George North and Jonathan Davies aren't going into this Tour in great form. Moreover, the first two tend to lack dynamism in attack, something which I think is of critical importance of the Lions have any aspirations of winning the Tour. In a vacuum, I have no major problems with Moriarty going; the problem I have is that 4 Welsh back-rows are going. 3 seemed fine, although it's not a huge problem by any means, especially with the wear-and-tear of having to play the NZ Super Rugby sides (Who will take those encounters very seriously). I'm not that big a fan of Dan Biggar although he likely won't be a part of the match-day 23 so once again it's not a big problem.
- Logically, you would confer that the merger of the Home Nations would give you a side which would be stronger than any of the individual Home Nations. Over such a short time-span however. I'm more inclined to argue the opposite. Trying to adopt a playing style which can be adopted quickly is one thing; trying to create a playing style which can defeat the All Blacks twice is a whole new ballgame. What's more, I think that the playing style which is easiest to adopt (Narrow, conservative and one-out phases) is the worst possible style to adopt versus New Zealand. And FWIW, I don't envisage Gatland coaxing his players to use the full width of the pitch.
I can't say I am relishing this tour. Away to the best team in the world with a scratch team under a limited coach whose record against SH opposition is atrocious.
We'll play 'Warrenball in the first test and get absolutely creamed.
Are some of you envisioning this being worse than the 2005 shit show?
Murray not looking good for the weekend according to gatlin, it seems it's more than just a stinger, talk of nerve damage, hopefully we get cj back for the match though.
Agree with all your points mate.
I honestly thought JG would have went, he has been immense for Scotland and the Warriors this season and deserved a shot. However, the competition for the second row positions was really fierce this year, and with him only being 23 he will get another opportunity. I think Watson has been given a raw deal too and Brown is another I thought would have been picked, all have been great for Scotland and the Warriors / Edinburgh this year.
Aye out of the 12 Welsh lads he's picked I can't see many making the test sides, unless one is a dead rubber. I find it baffling though, Halfpenny Davies and Biggar have been so poor this season and Gatland has bottled it and took the safe option and picked who he knows, such a shame. Thought he would have risen above that. Russell, for example, unlike Biggar is a maverick and would try different plays and be brave with the ball, might have been worth a pop. Injury to Laidlaw ended his chances too, he could have been a pick as he is terrific at game-management and seeing out games, like the 6 Nations game against Ireland. But enough about us Scots
Launchbury was a shock, knew it was rumored he would miss out but I think they will really regret that. He was fantastic for England in the Nations and has been for the last 18 months or so, big call not to take him.
Yeah I've been really impressed with Hartley and how he has sorted his discipline out and captained England really well. But I'm not surprised he hasn't made it, never really thought he would go. Rest of the squad I more or less agree with, England have been so powerful and quick since the last WC so it was obvious a lot of English would go, and Ireland have an impressive team too so think the majority of the squad was always going to be with them.
I hope not. I'd love to see the series go down to the wire, something we haven't seen since 2001. That said, I've seen teams go to New Zealand confident of victory and they end up swept aside in a ruthless, efficient manner.
Agree with all your points mate.
I honestly thought JG would have went, he has been immense for Scotland and the Warriors this season and deserved a shot. However, the competition for the second row positions was really fierce this year, and with him only being 23 he will get another opportunity. I think Watson has been given a raw deal too and Brown is another I thought would have been picked, all have been great for Scotland and the Warriors / Edinburgh this year.
Aye out of the 12 Welsh lads he's picked I can't see many making the test sides, unless one is a dead rubber. I find it baffling though, Halfpenny Davies and Biggar have been so poor this season and Gatland has bottled it and took the safe option and picked who he knows, such a shame. Thought he would have risen above that. Russell, for example, unlike Biggar is a maverick and would try different plays and be brave with the ball, might have been worth a pop. Injury to Laidlaw ended his chances too, he could have been a pick as he is terrific at game-management and seeing out games, like the 6 Nations game against Ireland. But enough about us Scots
Launchbury was a shock, knew it was rumored he would miss out but I think they will really regret that. He was fantastic for England in the Nations and has been for the last 18 months or so, big call not to take him.
Yeah I've been really impressed with Hartley and how he has sorted his discipline out and captained England really well. But I'm not surprised he hasn't made it, never really thought he would go. Rest of the squad I more or less agree with, England have been so powerful and quick since the last WC so it was obvious a lot of English would go, and Ireland have an impressive team too so think the majority of the squad was always going to be with them.
Before 6N if you'd asked me who was the best lock in Europe based on the Autumn internationals and European club form, Jonny Gray would have topped that list. Didn't he break some record for not missing a tackle in consecutive games? He was incredible for Glasgow. I'd add he wasn't even that bad in 6N yeah he was outplayed against England but that was one of those game. Like the Wales 30-3 years back for England, most of the players on that day had a bad game.
Yeah Halfpenny, Davies are interesting to me. Halfpenny has been poor and You have Hogg/Williams as the 15s with Nowell, Watson, Daly and Payne as back ups. Was there need for him? I guess his past experience, but it's been a good few years since he showed any good form. Davies was a shock I know a few Wales fans who seemed shocked at that one. Ringrose or Dunbar should have had his spot. Bigger has hasn't been great but he did show glimpses of his old form in 6N, I don't hate him being 3rd choice but I agree Russell or Ford should have gone. Both smaller 10s but as you said a little mavericks, a different option to the physical 10s. I would have gone taken Russell, Gray and Watson to add to the other 2 Scots. I would have taken Laidlaw and JP Nel too but being injured. Some will question Laidlaw but Lions need leaders and for me Ben Youngs is very lucky to be on tour, wouldn't have hurt for Laidlaw as 3rd choice 9. Problem is both Nel/Laidlaw will be back before June so why not risk them as he is taking Alun Wyn Jones, Kruis (he did return this week) both injured at the moment.
Launchbury is interesting for me. It was a shock as he was the best lock in 6N. I know this will be unpopular and I'm totally in the minority on this but I still go with Itoje/Kruis over him. Launch is a better player then Kruis I could name a few more for the Lions but the Itoje/Kruis partnership is world class best in Europe. It's dominated the club game and international game I think with an Irish front row with English 2nd row I think we have a real chance to win the series.
Agree on Hartley. He's proven to be a great leader but Jamie George should have taken his England spot a year ago. Hes quality for Sarries. Yeah I think more England should have gone based on last 18 months although as I said Youngs is lucky, Cole too if Nel was fit and Teo all lucky to go imo.
I don't think so. Even though I question some of Gatlands picks, however I still think this is up there with best ever Lion squads. If I did my starting 23 before the squad was announced and after it would be the same as all players were picked. Just the midweek squad that changed. With the 10 game schedule he needed a big squad this time. Plus in 2013 they had 8 injures after squad was announced so still time for it to change.
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Aye Gray did, he has been immense all year, tackling machine and seems to make the right decision all the time. Aye I think that game against England is what stopped him going but as you say all the players had a bad game that day. With a player being sin-binned and then Hogg injured in the first 10-15 mins it was only gonna end one way, as Scotland these days never just take what they have, they keep attacking and trying to force opportunities no matter the consequences. Funny you mention that 30-3 game, looking back now that's a bookmark that game and the WC later that year, England have been 10x better since and Wales have got worse.
That's my argument with Halfpenny, there actually wasn't a need for him. Sure the experience is welcome but there is so much experience elsewhere too that I really don't think he's essential. Aye Davies is a mental choice, was baffled at his inclusion. I agree on the other 3 Scots joining the 2 already selected and I think North should have been in with a shout too. Talking with my Dad and brother was surprised a bit about Zebo too, he seems to have developed his game the last few seasons and he could have brought something else to the table too. Nel being injured is a huge shame, I think he's a cracking player and would have been an automatic pick if fit. Aye Youngs is lucky for me too.
As I mentioned previously that competition for the second row this tour was intense, so many players available to choose from there was always gonna be a shock or a controversial player being omitted. Purely down to his form and what he offers, I'm amazed Launch wasn't a pick. That being said, you're right about the Kruis/Itoje partnership. It's been instrumental and I'd like to see them perform well v the All Blacks. I think the pack choices are so exciting and I think this tour will be won or lost for the Lions in the pack. If they get it right, there are some great combinations and could give them a really hard time. I honestly can't wait, surprised and shocked at the squad a bit but I'm so amped for the tour now.
George looks the real deal doesn't he. Every time I've seen him I've thought he looks class. Agree on the other English boys being lucky as you mentioned too.
The Sarries are quality though, so powerful and quick and were deserved champions last year in Europe. The game against the Warriors the other week was quality, seeing both teams going at and was a good acid test for the Warriors, as the Sarries standard is what they should be aiming for. I'm going to the European Final in Edinburgh next month and I'm so excited for it, hoping for Saracens v Clermont in the final, but the Irish teams have a real chance of getting there too (I have a red and black Adidas Canterbury Crusaders top so I will be wearing that if the Sarries get there
).Zebo's form was better in the first half of the season. He looked fatigued to me during the Six Nations, which is probably why his form was relatively ordinary. Mind you, he's a better player at FB than on the wing, although not quite to the extent that he should be starting ahead of Hogg for the Lions.
Most of us envisioned a 37/38 man squad so with 41, some of the names people are getting worked up about don't really matter. Moriarty and Halfpenny plus one of the extra centres aren't in at the expense of someone who should have been there.
My squad had Launchbury ahead of Lawes, J.Gray instead of Henderson, Laidlaw in for Youngs and Ringrose over Davies. When you consider Laidlaw missed most of the 6N to injury and Henderson covers 6 and lock, that's only really 2 bad decisions in a squad of 41. Not that bad at all.
My squad had Launchbury ahead of Lawes, J.Gray instead of Henderson, Laidlaw in for Youngs and Ringrose over Davies. When you consider Laidlaw missed most of the 6N to injury and Henderson covers 6 and lock, that's only really 2 bad decisions in a squad of 41. Not that bad at all.
Agree, in the first half of the season he looked a shoo-in for a place on the tour, and he probably was a bit jaded in the 6 Nations. Aye he does, like a few other's that have missed out he offers that maverick side too where he can be unpredictable which is exactly what you need against the All Blacks in their own back yard. Hogg is the best FB option for sure, my whole issue I suppose just lies with the fact Gatland has taken the easy and safe option with some players which is a shame, and a decision I think he will come to rue.
Oh I also would have brought Ford. With only Biggar as back up at 10, one of Sexton or Farrell is now going to bench the midweek games. That's not good.
As I mentioned previously that competition for the second row this tour was intense, so many players available to choose from there was always gonna be a shock or a controversial player being omitted. Purely down to his form and what he offers, I'm amazed Launch wasn't a pick. That being said, you're right about the Kruis/Itoje partnership. It's been instrumental and I'd like to see them perform well v the All Blacks. I think the pack choices are so exciting and I think this tour will be won or lost for the Lions in the pack. If they get it right, there are some great combinations and could give them a really hard time. I honestly can't wait, surprised and shocked at the squad a bit but I'm so amped for the tour now.
George looks the real deal doesn't he. Every time I've seen him I've thought he looks class. Agree on the other English boys being lucky as you mentioned too.
The Sarries are quality though, so powerful and quick and were deserved champions last year in Europe. The game against the Warriors the other week was quality, seeing both teams going at and was a good acid test for the Warriors, as the Sarries standard is what they should be aiming for. I'm going to the European Final in Edinburgh next month and I'm so excited for it, hoping for Saracens v Clermont in the final, but the Irish teams have a real chance of getting there too (I have a red and black Adidas Canterbury Crusaders top so I will be wearing that if the Sarries get there
Yeah I you look at Launchbury, Kruis, Itoje, Lawes, Ryan, Henderson, AWJ, Grays x2 you think the likes of Attwood or Charteris went even in the discussion. It's tough man I mean only 5 can go and as you said 2 or 3 world class players would have to miss out.
Look at the squad I think Gatland will go with partnerships. I can see an all Irish front row as they outplayed NZ front 3 in both games in the Autumn, an all English 2nd row (mentioned above), all Irish half backs, all English centres with a majority Scottish back 3 with Hogg/Seymour with Liam Williams (although if North can prove himself in build up he should start, I say this as I think he hasn't looked great or Saints). I think the back row will be the only part of the 15 that will have a different international in each position Stander, Warburton and Billy V. I also think Gatland will use Eddie Jones "finishers" tactic imagine after 60mins we bring on Mako, George, Sinkler, Henderson, Faletau, Webb and Daly. I agree with Gats gets it right I really do think the pack and bench can compete.
That Sarries Munster game should be a classic. Leinster Clermont isn't bad either. To think Sarries adding Liam Willaims next year isn't fair. I say that as a Quins fans. BTW Nick Evans Quins legend retired, amazing player for the club, going to be a huge loss.
Crusaders kit is a really nice one, Adidas do make some great rugby kits. I'm bias but the Harlequins jersey is the best in the English league.
Really looking forward to the Champions Cup semi finals this weekend. I fancy Leinster to beat Clermont. Munster vs Saracens is more difficult to call. Picking Saracens to edge but not if they as badly as they did vs Northampton in the Premiership last weekend. While acknowledging the sentiment for Munster, I hope Saracens win as I don't want an all Irish final*.
*Nothing against Ireland at all, i just don't like European finals in football and Rugby where two teams from the same country play in the final. It'd feel like an abroad Pro12 game if we see two Irish sides in the final.
*Nothing against Ireland at all, i just don't like European finals in football and Rugby where two teams from the same country play in the final. It'd feel like an abroad Pro12 game if we see two Irish sides in the final.
It'll feel like a "behind closed doors" game if Clermont and Sarries get through! Saracens only asked for 2500 semi final tickets and apparently they've sent half of those back.
If Leinster and Munster go through Edinburgh will be swarmed. We'll kill each other up and down the Royal Mile and over into the Grassmarket!
Agree about Edinburgh being swarmed by an all Irish final but It's always my preference though for a final in a competition like this to be between teams from different countries. It's the same with Super Rugby, same with the football Champions League.
You're right of course. I don't think I've even watched the last few European finals (rugby or football) which were all French or all Spanish affairs.
That said, I'm Irish so I'd hypocritically love such a scenario! Just as I did in 2008 when United beat Chelsea in Moscow!
It's hard to see beyond an All Blacks win this tour.
Two of the three games are being played at Eden Park.
The All Blacks have not lost there in 23 years.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11651829
Two of the three games are being played at Eden Park.
The All Blacks have not lost there in 23 years.
http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11651829
Their record in Wellington is very impressive too - they haven't lost there since 2003.
Think they've only lost twice at home since then. All these home records will be impressive.
I still think the Lions have a shot. I think Wales put a good showing in first 60 mins in all 3 games last year but fell away at the end when the benches started to clear. I can't see that happening this time round. I think if we look at the talent in the forwards I think the Lions can compete.
I'm with @diarm being selfish wanting both Irish teams through to the final to guarantee and Irish winner When you think of the situation last season, it's some turnaround.
When you think of the situation last season, it's some turnaround.I totally agree on the partnerships, I think that was definitely in his mind. In the pack, I think if he picks the 3 Irish boys, then English second row, then say Vunipola at 8, with Tipuric/Warburton and Stander as Flankers I think they have a big opportunity at overpowering the All Black scrum. That battle is there to be won, and if the Lions can dominate the scrum and set piece they have a great chance. The backs should see the two Scottish boys and Williams or North in the back line, Joseph and Farrell in the centre and I would go with the Irish half-backs to start too. That team, if they can get going, would cause a lot of problems for the All Blacks and should provide a stern defensive unit too. I think he will adopt the finisher tactic too. When Wales were in NZ last year the played well in every test for about an hour, but the All Black bench was so strong it turned the tide in all three tests. The bench is gonna be key with the pack, if Gatland can get that right and make the right changes at the right times there is a great opportunity for them.
I can't wait mate, gonna be a tremendous weekend of sport all round. United obviously, I like Rangers too so will be watching the Old Firm closely too and then the rugby. FA Cup too should throw up two good games.
Sarries look so strong it's ridiculous, adding Liam Williams makes them one of the favorites for next year already. Cracking squad they have, so so strong. You go to any of the Quins games? I love watching the Warriors so go see them when I can. Aye seen he was calling it a day, really good player always solid. Will be hard to find a replacement for him.
Aye it's cracking, I love the New Zealand teams in the Super Rugby, and the Crusaders Blues Highlanders and Chiefs have all been cracking this year. They all have mint tops too, except the Chiefs lol their's looks crazy. Aye the Quins jersey is mint, always thought it was really unique and stood out. Like the Wasps top too.
It would be great to see us both get through, i cant see us getting past sarries if both cj and Murray are out.I'm with @diarm being selfish wanting both Irish teams through to the final to guarantee and Irish winner
There are still tickets going for the final, so if Munster are doing well i might buy a few with the intention to go over but if i cant, sell them
Is anybody going to the European Cup Final? I'm going and I can't wait, curious to see if anyone else has bought tickets too.