Ruben Neves | Signed for Al Hilal (SA)

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bsCallout said:
Dante just posting distance covered, seems he does run.
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There's a difference between constantly moving around the pitch, and high energy sprints.

Fellaini used to be very high on distance covered in pretty much all his matches, but would you say he's a 'runner' also?

It all depends how you want to play, do you think Klopp would want somebody like Neves in his midfield? we've seen already how a similar player in Thiago upsets the balance completely. In todays pressing game total distance isn't so important, high energy sprints are more.
 
What type of DM we are after depends on who we plan to partner him with. Pogba or Fred? The funny thing is people will complain either way. It's either Pogba can't play with a DM in the double pivot. Or we can't pair Fred who can play there with a DM because he is not good enough to start. So in terms of having both balance and a top class midfield we could actually do with 2 new midfielders
 
Adam-Utd said:
There's a difference between constantly moving around the pitch, and high energy sprints.

Fellaini used to be very high on distance covered in pretty much all his matches, but would you say he's a 'runner' also?

It all depends how you want to play, do you think Klopp would want somebody like Neves in his midfield? we've seen already how a similar player in Thiago upsets the balance completely. In todays pressing game total distance isn't so important, high energy sprints are more.
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Why do you need high energy sprints? I don't imagine Rice or Carrick have high energy sprints, that's not their game. Their positioning is very good.

We have enough players that can do your high energy sprints.
 
bsCallout said:
Why do you need high energy sprints? I don't imagine Rice or Carrick have high energy sprints, that's not their game. Their positioning is very good.

We have enough players that can do your high energy sprints.
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High energy sprinting is what is vital to pressing. Jogging around the pitch doesn't do anything for pressing, you need to be sprinting full speed multiple times. Remember when Ole first joined and we had more muscle injuries? we were top for high level of sprints.

West Ham don't press, neither did United back when Carrick was playing.

Under Ole we press a lot more than any United side did before, football has evolved.

You're better comparing Fred to somebody like Wiljnaldum or Henderson than Rice.

Rice is similar to Neves in the sense they don't really defend passed the half way line, they keep shape in a tight knit unit and aim to counter attack.
 
Adam-Utd said:
High energy sprinting is what is vital to pressing. Jogging around the pitch doesn't do anything for pressing, you need to be sprinting full speed multiple times. Remember when Ole first joined and we had more muscle injuries? we were top for high level of sprints.

West Ham don't press, neither did United back when Carrick was playing.

Under Ole we press a lot more than any United side did before, football has evolved.

You're better comparing Fred to somebody like Wiljnaldum or Henderson than Rice.

Rice is similar to Neves in the sense they don't really defend passed the half way line, they keep shape in a tight knit unit and aim to counter attack.
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High energy sprinting isn't the only vital thing for pressing. Positional awareness is just as important.

We already have enough players that want to chase after the ball like a dog.

It's perhaps unfair to judge a player simply based on the way their teams play too and therefore what is required from them.

I didn't compare Fred to Rice.
 
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Adam-Utd said:
It's definitely valid hence why I said it.

If you're running full speed from a midfield position to close somebody down, if you miss the initial tackle/interception then they'll skip passed you. Fred being smaller in stature has to go all in to win it, if he misses it his size means they'll just power passed him and he can't stop them.

Mctominay being 6'4 obviously does this in a different way, he doesn't get anywhere near as close and instead challenges them to make it passed him. Being physically stronger and longer legs means he can win more standing tackles.

Fred is a lot more aggressive when pressing, so naturally the higher you are on the pitch means it's easier to run passed into space. Other midfielders who defend in front of their back line and don't have space behind won't get dribbled anywhere near as much.
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Only goes so far though. Kalvin Phillips f.e. has roughly the same number of presses/90 as Fred, but gets dribbled past much more rarely (1,2 pr.game).
 
A very underwhelming season IMHO. Things were bad to the point that Moutinho had to be used way more than himself expected at this stge of his career.
 
bsCallout said:
Why do you need high energy sprints? I don't imagine Rice or Carrick have high energy sprints, that's not their game. Their positioning is very good.

We have enough players that can do your high energy sprints.
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Especially in your 2 DMs that are supposed to hold the shape of the team together and be a barrier in front of the defence. You dont really want them sprinting out of position and then losing a 50/50. If we wanted someone to break from that and try to win the ball higher up the pitch with pressing we should have kept Ander because he was better at it.

More important as you say is positioning and knowing the right time to close down, cut passing lanes, try to win the ball and to mark runners from midfield that will overload the defenders. If you have a player just mad dogging it towards the ball and especially if they get beaten quite easily, then you're leaving all the above avenues towards goal open
 
Dont buy a player who's not having momentum imo.

We've seen it go wrong a couple of times before.
 
justsomebloke said:
Only goes so far though. Kalvin Phillips f.e. has roughly the same number of presses/90 as Fred, but gets dribbled past much more rarely (1,2 pr.game).
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Fred obviously isn't the best standing tackler due to his size, as I've said often if he misses the first tackle then they can get passed him fairly easily - but he doesn't give up and will continue chasing and often steal it back once slowed down by a defender.

I just don't think the stats meet the eye test at all. Ruben Neves is not somebody i'd say is a mobile tackling machine like those stats make out. Saying that though i'd rather spend 35m on him than Rice that's for sure.
 
Thinking about it I would not object to him coming here,
Maybe we can get a bit of cash for Pereira and Matic to make it about a 25mil outlay.
 
Absolutely do not want. Style but little substance. He's an upgrade on our current options in some respects but we should be aiming far higher. He's just a worse version of Tielemans in almost every way.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Fred obviously isn't the best standing tackler due to his size, as I've said often if he misses the first tackle then they can get passed him fairly easily - but he doesn't give up and will continue chasing and often steal it back once slowed down by a defender.

I just don't think the stats meet the eye test at all. Ruben Neves is not somebody i'd say is a mobile tackling machine like those stats make out. Saying that though i'd rather spend 35m on him than Rice that's for sure.
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He does have very good stats for recoveries. The best among those I've looked at, actually. Maybe we should be looking at the balance of dispossession, dribbled-past and recoveries.
 
...so I did. Loss of Possession/90 + Dribbled Past/game minus recoveries/90.

Declan Rice
1,4​
Yves Bissouma
2,3​
Franck Kessie
2,6​
Rodrigo Bentancur
3,9​
McTominay
4,3​
vd Beek (Man utd)
5,1​
Fred
5,2​
Eduardo Camavinga
5,4​
Boubakar Kamara
5,5​
Aurelien Tchouameni
6​
Kalvin Phillips
6,4​
Ruben Neves
6,8​
Marcos Llorente
7​
Marcelo Brozovic
7,1​
Manuel Locatelli
8,1​
Mikel Merino
8,9​
Mauro Arambarri
9​
 
Brwned said:
Absolutely do not want. Style but little substance. He's an upgrade on our current options in some respects but we should be aiming far higher. He's just a worse version of Tielemans in almost every way.
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He's a completely different player to Tielemans.
 
bsCallout said:
He's a completely different player to Tielemans.
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He’s a #6 who helps control the midfield and offer defensive protection, covering plenty of ground and connecting the play, without being able to carry out either role single-handedly. The biggest difference in their play currently is the style of the teams they play in. Neves is hardly playing in his ideal team currently. Maybe the next level of specificity matters more to you than others.
 
Brwned said:
He’s a #6 who helps control the midfield and offer defensive protection, covering plenty of ground and connecting the play, without being able to carry out either role single-handedly. Maybe the next level of specificity matters more to you than others.
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You're really trying to tell me they play the same role and are the same sort of player? Moutinho is the comparable one in that Wolves midfield.
 
Adam-Utd said:
It just shows how stats are overrated.

His tackles and interceptions are because he sits infront of a back 3 and mops up.

Do you really think he's not dribbled passed because he's a great standing defender, or the fact that there is literally no room to dribble passed him backed up by 3 centre backs?

It's the same situation for Rice. His stats are inflated as he's backed up by a meat wall behind him.

Compare that to how much higher Fred and Mctominay are playing, you just can't always rely on stats. Fred gets dribbled passed because he's on the front foot pressing and if you miss the initial tackle your momentum always means they will get passed you.
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The stats repeatedly say Fred has been one of the most effective and hardworking box to box midfielders around this season. People just hate on his game for whatever reason. It is what it is at this stage. If they can’t appreciate games when he’s assisted and enabled the victory they are almost certainly going to go crazy about a couple of missed passes, even though he scores high for pass completion he doesn’t just always take the easy option like most other oppo players fans are creaming themselves over. It’ll be McT replaced as a starter next year anyway if we bring anyone in. I’m looking forward to another year of Freds crazy energy behind Bruno. He’s been a good signing, our most important midfielder this season and was doing well before the break last season. I do agree he/we could do with a bit more help on the ball in deeper areas for sure.
 
bsCallout said:
You're really trying to tell me they play the same role and are the same sort of player? Moutinho is the comparable one in that Wolves midfield.
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Yes I agree Moutinho is like Tielemans. So is Neves. Neither of them are like Ndidi. They setup differently and no two players are perfectly alike so comparisons have flaws. They would play the same role here at United but bring different characteristics to it. Neither could play alongside Pogba - unlike e.g. Ndidi - and both would play alongside someone like McTominay or Fred. Hardly worth discussing.
 
Ali Dia said:
The stats repeatedly say Fred has been one of the most effective and hardworking box to box midfielders around this season. People just hate on his game for whatever reason. It is what it is at this stage. If they can’t appreciate games when he’s assisted and enabled the victory they are almost certainly going to go crazy about a couple of missed passes, even though he scores high for pass completion he doesn’t just always take the easy option like most other oppo players fans are creaming themselves over. It’ll be McT replaced as a starter next year anyway if we bring anyone in. I’m looking forward to another year of Freds crazy energy behind Bruno. He’s been a good signing, our most important midfielder this season and was doing well before the break last season. I do agree he/we could do with a bit more help on the ball in deeper areas for sure.
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Fred next to some as composed as Neves makes sense to me. A much better passer too.
 
Brwned said:
Absolutely do not want. Style but little substance. He's an upgrade on our current options in some respects but we should be aiming far higher. He's just a worse version of Tielemans in almost every way.
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Pretty much how I feel about this one.
 
justsomebloke said:
...so I did. Loss of Possession/90 + Dribbled Past/game minus recoveries/90.

Declan Rice
1,4​
Yves Bissouma
2,3​
Franck Kessie
2,6​
Rodrigo Bentancur
3,9​
McTominay
4,3​
vd Beek (Man utd)
5,1​
Fred
5,2​
Eduardo Camavinga
5,4​
Boubakar Kamara
5,5​
Aurelien Tchouameni
6​
Kalvin Phillips
6,4​
Ruben Neves
6,8​
Marcos Llorente
7​
Marcelo Brozovic
7,1​
Manuel Locatelli
8,1​
Mikel Merino
8,9​
Mauro Arambarri
9​
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You have centre back and midfielders (of different types too) in that graph. A midfielder, especially a more creative one, will take more risks with the ball and will naturally lose it more than they are likely to recover it. Naturally Bissouma the CB appears better than a playmaking CM like Locatelli for example.
 
Brwned said:
Yes I agree Moutinho is like Tielemans. So is Neves. Neither of them are like Ndidi. They setup differently and no two players are perfectly alike so comparisons have flaws. They would play the same role here at United but bring different characteristics to it. Neither could play alongside Pogba - unlike e.g. Ndidi - and both would play alongside someone like McTominay or Fred. Hardly worth discussing.
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Carrick was nothing like Tielemans, he was nothing like Ndidi too. Scholes was like none of them.

Neves as far as anything goes plays the role like Carrick or perhaps Rice but with better range and scoring ability than rice. Tielemans plays more like a Wijnaldum.

Just because they both play CM and aren't like Kante or Ndidi doesn't make them similar.

I wouldn't play Pogba in the two but that's a different debate.
 
bsCallout said:
Carrick was nothing like Tielemans, he was nothing like Ndidi too. Scholes was like none of them.

Neves as far as anything goes plays the role like Carrick or perhaps Rice but with better range and scoring ability than rice. Tielemans plays more like a Wijnaldum.

Just because they both play CM and aren't like Kanye or Ndidi doesn't make them similar.

I wouldn't play Pogba in the two but that's a different debate.
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My head hurts after reading this.

Why are you all comparing 50 different midfielders in this thread?
 
MadMike said:
You have centre back and midfielders (of different types too) in that graph. A midfielder, especially a more creative one, will take more risks with the ball and will naturally lose it more than they are likely to recover it. Naturally Bissouma the CB appears better than a playmaking CM like Locatelli for example.
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What? Bissouma is not a CB? Nor anyone else either in that selection, AFAIK?

All of these players, BTW, lose the ball more than they recover it.

You are of course right that these are merely one set of stats to consider among many, and subject to context.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
My head hurts after reading this.

Why are you all comparing 50 different midfielders in this thread?
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Clearly making the point that your can't compare Neves to Tielemans, they are clearly different style players even if they do play the same position.
 
Lash said:
Thanks for doing this.

For the price, I see him being a very good acquisition and will no doubt improve the squad as he has a different skillset to what any of our midfielders have. The price then allows us to focus on spending big on other areas which you need to spend the big bucks on - Sancho/Varane.
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Assumed price. There is one tweet saying it. I don’t believe it. Yet people want to buy him because it’s a good punt at 35m.

we should be buying people we’ve watched and happy that they fit into what we’re building not random players on a punt because they might be 35m
 
golden_blunder said:
Assumed price. There is one tweet saying it. I don’t believe it. Yet people want to buy him because it’s a good punt at 35m.

we should be buying people we’ve watched and happy that they fit into what we’re building not random players on a punt because they might be 35m
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Such an important point. That's why I'm happy for us to spend big on Sancho - I have full faith in his talent. Whether it's 20 million or 80 million, the player should be of the right quality and fit into the system. You don't buy a player because just because he costs a certain amount. Sometimes I feel like it's what we did with VDB. Player who had done well in the CL was available and we went for him, rather than for his ability and suitability to the team. Could be wrong but that's how that transfer came across.
 
golden_blunder said:
Assumed price. There is one tweet saying it. I don’t believe it. Yet people want to buy him because it’s a good punt at 35m.

we should be buying people we’ve watched and happy that they fit into what we’re building not random players on a punt because they might be 35m
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Yeah it depends on the price completely, similar to Rice. I am not overly convinced with him, but would be happy with it, provided the price was a lot less.

Neves has been discussed a lot previously as a matic replacement, I wasn't happy to spend big on him either back then, but people have suddenly decided he has no quality any more, despite purring over him when Wolves were playing well. Now the price is potentially very acceptable, I would be happy with what he could bring to our midfield - despite his flaws.
 
I suspect Liverpool will sign him. It seems the kind of signing they live on
 
Tallis said:
I suspect Liverpool will sign him. It seems the kind of signing they live on
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Was just on here to write the exact same thing. He fits their profile of a player they hope can take the next step at a bigger club.
 
A lot of people seem to be judging him based off one performance in a last dead rubber game of virtual back-to-back seasons where most of the players are desperate for a holiday.

Have any resident Wolves fans posted?
 
Freak said:
The fact that Wolves are ok to sell him tells you everything you need to know. They do not seem to be even making an attempt to try and keep him.
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Maybe he's told them he wants a new challenge and they're happy to grant him that and not stand in his way. Plus, probably needing the money from covid losses.

Think he'd be a shrewd signing. An upgrade on what we have and would provide the passing range from deep/through the lines that we've sorely missed... Especially for the rumoured price - would still allow us to go big on Sancho and a centre back.
 
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