Ruben Neves | Signed for Al Hilal (SA)

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OrcaFat said:
And I think his weaknesses have been a bit exaggerated and his strengths a little downplayed by a few posters in this discussion
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According to some, he should be claiming disability allowance... :rolleyes:

This was in today's MeN..
"Defensively, he is better than any United midfield player.
Neves won the fifth highest number of tackles and interceptions in the Premier League last season with 151. Aaron Wan-Bissaka is the only United player who achieved a higher success rate (153). Ultimately, this illustrates the type of midfielder he is and one that United are crying out for"

If Neves is genuinely in the top 5 in these categories, then he must be doing something right and can't be as snail slow as some would have you believe.
"Defensively, he is better than any United midfield player" which would include McFred, and he is twice as good as either of those two when it comes to ball distribution too..
 
Ikon said:
According to some, he should be claiming disability allowance... :rolleyes:

This was in today's MeN..
"Defensively, he is better than any United midfield player.
Neves won the fifth highest number of tackles and interceptions in the Premier League last season with 151. Aaron Wan-Bissaka is the only United player who achieved a higher success rate (153). Ultimately, this illustrates the type of midfielder he is and one that United are crying out for"

If Neves is genuinely in the top 5 in these categories, then he must be doing something right and can't be as snail slow as some would have you believe.
"Defensively, he is better than any United midfield player" which would include McFred, and he is twice as good as either of those two when it comes to ball distribution too..
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He's not "twice as good as them" in terms of ball distribution. Maybe he's the more incisive, certainly the better long passer but ours are steady passers too and the stats back this up since you're relying on them in your argument - there is little between them in many passing areas. In fact maybe you need to look at them carefully in these areas before making outlandish claims.This is just hyperbole on both ends with the way you're underrating our players and pumping up Neves, and therefore ending up with a distorted analysis.
 
theklr said:
Per 90 Fred is better though, he got 1.92 pr 90 while Neves got 1.42.
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Which to my mind, just shows that too much credibility is placed on these type of stats
 
devilish said:
Ah statistics.

Have you noticed that our defenders have better 'passing distance' then the rest? It goes like Defense (and Matic who sits deeper then all our midfielders) > Midfielders > Forwards. Could it be the case that the deeper a player plays the more opportunity he has to do progressive passing? I mean who on earth could the likes of Cavani, Mason and Rashy give long passes to?
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Ah immediately dismiss statistics because you don't know what they actually mean.

No, that couldn't be the case because it isn't just about the length but the frequency. You don't need to play long passes to play a progressive pass. As you can see below it goes Matic to Bruno/Pogba/Shaw.

Progressive passes are defined as: Completed passes that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 10 yards from its furthest point in the last six passes, or any completed pass into the penalty area. Excludes passes from the defending 40% of the pitch.

Progressive carries are defined as: Carries that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 5 yards, or any carry into the penalty area. Excludes carries from the defending 40% of the pitch

So, not long balls or because he is deeper but because he is simply a great progressor of the ball.

f4kx06g0pcf71.jpg


basically playing with 10 players as Matic would produce next to nothing in terms of creativity
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Thus, you're complete nonsense of playing a man down in possession is exactly that, nonsense. Not exactly surprising though, Matic never played in 90s Italian football so you've obviously never actually seen him play.
 
Ikon said:
According to some, he should be claiming disability allowance... :rolleyes:

This was in today's MeN..
"Defensively, he is better than any United midfield player.
Neves won the fifth highest number of tackles and interceptions in the Premier League last season with 151. Aaron Wan-Bissaka is the only United player who achieved a higher success rate (153). Ultimately, this illustrates the type of midfielder he is and one that United are crying out for"

If Neves is genuinely in the top 5 in these categories, then he must be doing something right and can't be as snail slow as some would have you believe.
"Defensively, he is better than any United midfield player" which would include McFred, and he is twice as good as either of those two when it comes to ball distribution too..
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According to Fbref - per 90 mins Fred is somewhat better in interceptions, tackles and dribbled past, and just behind in blocks . So think Fred is a better defender
 
limerickcitykid said:
Ah immediately dismiss statistics because you don't know what they actually mean.

No, that couldn't be the case because it isn't just about the length but the frequency. You don't need to play long passes to play a progressive pass. As you can see below it goes Matic to Bruno/Pogba/Shaw.

Progressive passes are defined as: Completed passes that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 10 yards from its furthest point in the last six passes, or any completed pass into the penalty area. Excludes passes from the defending 40% of the pitch.

Progressive carries are defined as: Carries that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 5 yards, or any carry into the penalty area. Excludes carries from the defending 40% of the pitch

So, not long balls or because he is deeper but because he is simply a great progressor of the ball.

f4kx06g0pcf71.jpg



Thus, you're complete nonsense of playing a man down in possession is exactly that, nonsense. Not exactly surprising though, Matic never played in 90s Italian football so you've obviously never actually seen him play.
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Anyone saying Matic is just a third CB isn't really paying attention to him and just being biased.
 
theklr said:
According to Fbref - per 90 mins Fred is somewhat better in interceptions, tackles and dribbled past, and just behind in blocks . So think Fred is a better defender
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As I said before, One source has Neves with highest number of interceptions another has Fred as highest number of interceptions, so you have to take these things with a pinch of salt I think.
 
Ikon said:
According to some, he should be claiming disability allowance... :rolleyes:

This was in today's MeN..
"Defensively, he is better than any United midfield player.
Neves won the fifth highest number of tackles and interceptions in the Premier League last season with 151. Aaron Wan-Bissaka is the only United player who achieved a higher success rate (153). Ultimately, this illustrates the type of midfielder he is and one that United are crying out for"

If Neves is genuinely in the top 5 in these categories, then he must be doing something right and can't be as snail slow as some would have you believe.
"Defensively, he is better than any United midfield player" which would include McFred, and he is twice as good as either of those two when it comes to ball distribution too..
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This was mentioned a few pages back (post). A lot of the players who rank with the most tackles/interceptions do so because they play for teams lower down the table who do a lot of defending. The big teams tend not to need to tackle so much since they have more possession, so their players show up less often in that list. So ranking players according to most tackles/interceptions doesn't really give you a list of the best DMs.

Fred actually leaps out as an exception to that rule, he's one of the few players from a big club to post a lot of tackles and interceptions. Still, it would be a stretch to call him the league's best DM, even if he is at a bigger club with good stats.
 
limerickcitykid said:
Ah immediately dismiss statistics because you don't know what they actually mean.

No, that couldn't be the case because it isn't just about the length but the frequency. You don't need to play long passes to play a progressive pass. As you can see below it goes Matic to Bruno/Pogba/Shaw.

Progressive passes are defined as: Completed passes that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 10 yards from its furthest point in the last six passes, or any completed pass into the penalty area. Excludes passes from the defending 40% of the pitch.

Progressive carries are defined as: Carries that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 5 yards, or any carry into the penalty area. Excludes carries from the defending 40% of the pitch

So, not long balls or because he is deeper but because he is simply a great progressor of the ball.

f4kx06g0pcf71.jpg



Thus, you're complete nonsense of playing a man down in possession is exactly that, nonsense. Not exactly surprising though, Matic never played in 90s Italian football so you've obviously never actually seen him play.
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I think passing distance is what says on the tin although its quite interesting to see rather contradictory data. For example Maguire and Lindelof were among the best in passing distance and carrying distance in your first statistic. Maguire has fallen at second tier on the second statistic though and Lindelof is third from last.

But please don't let me stop you from posting football manager like statistics.
 
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Ikon said:
As I said before, One source has Neves with highest number of interceptions another has Fred as highest number of interceptions, so you have to take these things with a pinch of salt I think.
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True that. Either way it shows Neves isnt that bad defensivly
 
Everytime I log on this thread is at the top of the boards. Getting mental now. Hasn't been a single concrete link or even a bullshit link in weeks :lol:
 
Offside said:
Everytime I log on this thread is at the top of the boards. Getting mental now. Hasn't been a single concrete link or even a bullshit link in weeks :lol:
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Not true. There have been at least two bullshit links over the last week.
 
limerickcitykid said:
Ah immediately dismiss statistics because you don't know what they actually mean.

No, that couldn't be the case because it isn't just about the length but the frequency. You don't need to play long passes to play a progressive pass. As you can see below it goes Matic to Bruno/Pogba/Shaw.

Progressive passes are defined as: Completed passes that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 10 yards from its furthest point in the last six passes, or any completed pass into the penalty area. Excludes passes from the defending 40% of the pitch.

Progressive carries are defined as: Carries that move the ball towards the opponent's goal at least 5 yards, or any carry into the penalty area. Excludes carries from the defending 40% of the pitch

So, not long balls or because he is deeper but because he is simply a great progressor of the ball.

f4kx06g0pcf71.jpg
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Devilish isn't really wrong with his comment, although he did go overboard with some of it. Matic clearly sits deeper than our other midfielders which makes it much easier for him to play the ball forward both in general and for longer distances. That's not to say he's not better than Fred and especially McTominay at it, but he has a massive advantage in those stats because of his own position on the field. Fred and Matic could pass the ball to the same exact player in the exact same position, but it would only count as a progressive pass for Matic as he's sitting 10 yards deeper than Fred would be.
 
theklr said:
According to Fbref - per 90 mins Fred is somewhat better in interceptions, tackles and dribbled past, and just behind in blocks . So think Fred is a better defender
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Forget the stats. My footballing eye test shows Matic as our best footballing CDM.

Pogba is our best CM.

What we need is a CDM better than Matic and a CM comparable to Pogba, and there aren't many comparable to Pogba.

The clear weaknesses in our squad have now been addressed and we're not in the shower of shite of a position we were a couple of years ago.

Our luxury problems are now finding a CDM better than Matic, a CM better/more committed than Pogba, a ST better/younger than Cavani and a LB in better physical shape than Luke Shaw.

We're finally in a good place and in my opinion one summer window and 3 signings away from being expected to win the league and compete for the Champions League. We're not there yet but we're close.
 
MrSingh2002 said:
Forget the stats. My footballing eye test shows Matic as our best footballing CDM.

Pogba is our best CM.

What we need is a CDM better than Matic and a CM comparable to Pogba, and there aren't many comparable to Pogba.

The clear weaknesses in our squad have now been addressed and we're not in the shower of shite of a position we were a couple of years ago.

Our luxury problems are now finding a CDM better than Matic, a CM better/more committed than Pogba, a ST better/younger than Cavani and a LB in better physical shape than Luke Shaw.

We're finally in a good place and in my opinion one summer window and 3 signings away from being expected to win the league and compete for the Champions League. We're not there yet but we're close.
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Funny guy you !
 
arthurka said:
Why are we discussing Neves? Are there any reliable links that we are in for him?
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Even if we were, it would only be in the event of us losing one of our current midfielders. It looks very very likely Pogba and Matic are staying so very much doubt we're signing a midfielder this summer.
 
Matic staying are we sure that will happen? Don't see what he will bring this team one more season.
 
I'm pretty sure we won't be buying a midfielder at this point unless Pogba leaves.
 
Neves is a good player I feel he fits the midfield perfectly on the basis of what the team lacks without Pogba. He and Tielemans offer what Mctomminay / Fred lack and that's creativity in distributing the ball from deep areas in the midfield.

The midfield of a team is a cog so it's not the relevance of how popular a players surname is that makes the difference it's their contribution to influence the team.

How many midfielders in the world today are truly even capable of doing it alone ? The only player I can think of is KDB. With even lowly promoted teams being coached to press effectively nowadays the most key function of the midfield is to be balanced. Neves balances the midfield being able to play as an 8 or in a double pivot as seen with Moutinho.

I'll reiterate one fact that I think most agree with and certainly what respectable pundits have stated United cannot go up a level with Fred / Mctomminay as first 11 members.

Hopefully Lingard / Pereira out and the new midfielder purchased.
 
Would love to see us bring him in. This one acquisition would bump us up to genuine title contenders imo, and he seems attainable.
 
The latest from in the club is that Traore and Neves will both stay barring a huge bid, good news for us, I’d be over the moon if we manage to keep him.
Bizarre reading some fans on here knocking his ball distribution, at times it’s sensational, like he reads the game in slow motion and is able to pick his pass, and don’t be fooled by him playing just in front of the defence, that’s was just Nuno being Nuno amd playing defensively, Lage has him much further upfield, and to good effect.
 
All I have read is that Neves is looking forward to the season with Wolves and working with the new coach.
Nothing to see here......Move on people.
 
Bondi77 said:
All I have read is that Neves is looking forward to the season with Wolves and working with the new coach.
Nothing to see here......Move on people.
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Because you read it, doesn’t mean it’s true. Eurosport said we have a deal quite far along for Neves, doesn’t mean that’s true either.

Whatever the truth it can change in a heartbeat.

All said and done there’s not much smoke so I doubt it will happen; I’ll give you that.
 
Statistics without context is meaningless and that's my problem with all these football stats. It is, how do I put more politely, a lazy way to draw a conclusion without having to watch and study how players X Y Z perform on the pitch in various contexts.

A context is something like 'when a team is high pressed how many times player X dribbled passed or how many times player Y successfully carried the ball forward for n yards?'. Or 'how many times player X lost the possession while defending a lead or against the onslaught?' Now something like that would provide meaningful insight about players capabilities, his strength or weaknesses under various contexts.
 
Bondi77 said:
All I have read is that Neves is looking forward to the season with Wolves and working with the new coach.
Nothing to see here......Move on people.
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In fairness, Neves nor any other footballer is ever going to say, "All the lads reckon this new coach is a dickhead, and we're going to have a shite season"
 
Ole wanting to play 4-3-3. We will need someone sitting who is like a Carrick type player.
Fred or McTominay can't pass 10yards
Matic is too slow
Not sure if VdB can play there or if Ole would trust him
So we definitely need a proper playmaker for this position, now that we have sorted our CB's
 
OrcaFat said:
Because you read it, doesn’t mean it’s true. Eurosport said we have a deal quite far along for Neves, doesn’t mean that’s true either.

Whatever the truth it can change in a heartbeat.

All said and done there’s not much smoke so I doubt it will happen; I’ll give you that.
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He has been quoted saying it.
 
Bestietom said:
Ole wanting to play 4-3-3. We will need someone sitting who is like a Carrick type player.
Fred or McTominay can't pass 10yards
Matic is too slow
Not sure if VdB can play there or if Ole would trust him
So we definitely need a proper playmaker for this position, now that we have sorted our CB's
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Longterm yes, but not this season.
 
With all due respect to Neves, he indeed has an experience in the prem BUT can he do it in a team that controls the ball and press the hell out of other teams when he's the only DM in 4-3-3 ?

It's very easy to look like a world class when you're in a team that play 5 in the back and additional midfielder(Moutinho) that help you with the defensive work, in a team that stands with 11 players behind the ball and just counter attack.
 
SAF is the GOAT said:
With all due respect to Neves, he indeed has an experience in the prem BUT can he do it in a team that controls the ball and press the hell out of other teams when he's the only DM in 4-3-3 ?

It's very easy to look like a world class when you're in a team that play 5 in the back and additional midfielder(Moutinho) that help you with the defensive work, in a team that stands with 11 players behind the ball and just counter attack.
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No he cant, but he wont be bought for it either, he’ll be bought for the double picot. But we arent going 4-3-3 this season, dont know why people are believing all the rumours.
 
Anyone who barks on about how Fred and McT are "steady and good passers" of the ball has no fecking clue about what a good passer is. It's not just about whether they complete a fecking pass, it's also how they do it, in which state is the receiver getting that pass, weight of the pass, vision and speed. Fred and McT are so fecking inconsistent sometimes it amazes me that they play at this level. Neves on the other hand, is a cultured midfielder who does passing with ease and is natural to ping a 30m pass.
 
SirAnderson said:
When was the latest tweet, sheesh, this is never going to happen, just people talking tactics and why he does or why he doesn't suit us. Would love him though.
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Isnt that what the transfer window is about though? :p
 
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