Ruben Dias thread

giorno said:
Thiago Silva was Nesta, but faster and better on the ball
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Better on the ball, yes, faster, or with that tier of opponent for the ages? 'And was Nesta'... do you believe his reading of the game is/was on par with Nesta's?

A large part of a legacy is who you do what against; Nesta vs pre-injury Ronaldo and peak Messi, being but two of his feats that are intrinsically linked with his name - what do you generally associate with Thiago Silva for this, or is yours an overall general level of brilliance?

I'm intrigued, given you're Italian and no dummy with this stuff, so you've obviously got your reasons!
 
Fortitude said:
Better on the ball, yes, faster, or with that tier of opponent for the ages? 'And was Nesta'... do you believe his reading of the game is/was on par with Nesta's?

A large part of a legacy is who you do what against; Nesta vs pre-injury Ronaldo and peak Messi, being but two of his feats that are intrinsically linked with his name - what do you generally associate with Thiago Silva for this, or is yours an overall general level of brilliance?

I'm intrigued, given you're Italian and no dummy with this stuff, so you've obviously got your reasons!
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First of all, Nesta had a torrid time against pre-injury Ronaldo, like everyone else

But yeah Thiago Silva's reading of the game was indeed on par with Nesta's and he was better in the air, better in 1vs1 duels and a superior player on the ball. He did learn a lot from Nesta, afterall
 
Son said:
The fact they have 2 players capable of reaching those levels shows either how good Guardiola is as a coach or how good they are at transfers. Whatever they are doing it’s been sure as hell better than our defensive recruitment.
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They’ve brought so many central defenders a few had to come good.
 
I'd say Vidić or thereabouts. Nesta, as @Fortitude has rightly noticed, is an almost unreachable goal and Rio isn't that much behind him. So far Dias had been nothing but brilliant and he is quite young as well, but I'm not getting a potential GOAT vibes from him.

Defenders are weird though. Varane looked like someone who could potentially reach that level when he was just starting out but eventually he turned out to be "just" world-class. Van Dijk had a huge leap in form to reach a historically great level in an individual season but he didn't look like a potential all-time great before that. So everything is possible.
 
Fortitude said:
A large part of a legacy is who you do what against; Nesta vs pre-injury Ronaldo and peak Messi, being but two of his feats that are intrinsically linked with his name - what do you generally associate with Thiago Silva for this, or is yours an overall general level of brilliance?
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I know that Nesta kept him quiet in the league before that but still the first thing that I can think about when I hear about Nesta vs Ronaldo is the latter wiping the floor with him in the UEFA Cup final. And I'm not trying to somehow underplay Nesta's greatness — that was exactly why Ronaldo was called O Fenômeno.
 
I think you only judge a player based on how they perform right now and not in some hypothetical scenario under a different manager. Every player has strengths and weaknesses and it is up to the manager to make best use of their players’ strengths and mitigate their weaknesses as part of the team. This is why good players can look average under a terrible manager, and “average” players look like world beaters for a different (elite) manager.

A good example is Pogba. He looks consistently world class for France but blows hot and cold for Man Utd.
 
giorno said:
Thiago Silva was Nesta, but faster and better on the ball

Top 10 mmmmm

Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa, Nesta, Scirea, Ramos, Stam, Krol, Thiago Silva, Rio ***

***Van Dijk's cracking that list in a few years
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You ruined this list by placing Ramos in it ahead of Stam and Rio.
 
No, but City dont need a Rio or Vidic in defence most of the time. In games where teams can actually put them under pressure a lot and they need the CBs to defend a lot Dias and Stones were still very good last season. But its rarely something asked of them.

He can be better on the ball than Rio and Vidic etc though, which is something that will be asked of him at City
 
giorno said:
Thiago Silva was Nesta, but faster and better on the ball

Top 10 mmmmm

Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa, Nesta, Scirea, Ramos, Stam, Krol, Thiago Silva, Rio ***

***Van Dijk's cracking that list in a few years
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Van Dijk's not half the player he was before his injury, if he hasn't already cracked the list then I can say with almost certainty he won't be cracking it now.
 
Bebestation said:
Whilst I don't doubt his potential -

I've personally made my mind that I kind of won't judge Players at City, Liverpool and Chelsea until they play for those clubs under a manager that is not in the top 1-4 managers bracket in the world.

Im sure playing with such exquisite tactics at their disposal makes their job easier than it does harder.

If someone like Ruben Dias is able to perform this way for City say if Mancini returns as manager - then I'd be able to make my mind up a bit more accurately.

Pep, Klopp and Tuchel have either talked about leaving or seen as short term managers- so I'm personally just waiting to see how they perform outside of that.
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This is absolutely an asinine way of evaluating players. Others may have pointed this out but that would mean we can't understand how good Cantona was for us, because he never played for a Pulis.

Leftback99 said:
He barely has to defend in that City team, when he does he doesn't look all that special.
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Wrong and wrong.

Maguire for example, on recent form, would be hilariously exposed in a high City back line.
 
adexkola said:
This is absolutely an asinine way of evaluating players. Others may have pointed this out but that would mean we can't understand how good Cantona was for us, because he never played for a Pulis.



Wrong and wrong.

Maguire for example, on recent form, would be hilariously exposed in a high City back line.
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He really wouldn't. There would probably be a similar thread about him instead.
 
adexkola said:
This is absolutely an asinine way of evaluating players. Others may have pointed this out but that would mean we can't understand how good Cantona was for us, because he never played for a Pulis.



Wrong and wrong.

Maguire for example, on recent form, would be hilariously exposed in a high City back line.
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Who was his manager at Leeds?
 
adexkola said:
This is absolutely an asinine way of evaluating players. Others may have pointed this out but that would mean we can't understand how good Cantona was for us, because he never played for a Pulis.
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Agreed, it's nonsense. Most of the best players in the history of football played under good managers. That's how they got attention, they won games. "That player's team is doing too well, so I can't judge them" is a new one to me.
 
Bebestation said:
Who was his manager at Leeds?
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Leeds that won a title? I dunno, probably some shit journeyman.

Leftback99 said:
He really wouldn't. There would probably be a similar thread about him instead.
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Maguire's lack of speed, inability to pass under pressure, dithering on the ball... All those would be ruthlessly punished if he was at City, over and over.

But you actually have to watch City games to see how crucial their defenders are. It's not a role you can be passive at. One mistake and you don't have anyone behind you covering. Stones is great at it now but his first season at City he got so much attention not because he was making more errors than the average defender, but because such errors lead to high quality shots at goal from the opposition usually leading to goals. Again, if you put Maguire and Lindelof in that back line it would be comedy central TV.
 
adexkola said:
Leeds that won a title? I dunno, probably some shit journeyman.



Maguire's lack of speed, inability to pass under pressure, dithering on the ball... All those would be ruthlessly punished if he was at City, over and over.

But you actually have to watch City games to see how crucial their defenders are. It's not a role you can be passive at. One mistake and you don't have anyone behind you covering. Stones is great at it now but his first season at City he got so much attention not because he was making more errors than the average defender, but because such errors lead to high quality shots at goal from the opposition usually leading to goals. Again, if you put Maguire and Lindelof in that back line it would be comedy central TV.
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I watch them all the time. You obviously don't watch Maguire if you think he's a 'passive' defender.
 
Leftback99 said:
I watch them all the time. You obviously don't watch Maguire if you think he's a 'passive' defender.
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I didn't say Maguire is a passive defender. I'm saying that based on his rotten form for United this season, he would actually do worse at City.

I also said the City defender role is not a role that any one can slot into. You saying that "[Dias] barely defends" is absolutely wrong. It takes a lot of concentration, intelligence, and perfection at the simple things, to do well at that role. If Maguire has not demonstrated those qualities at United, why would he slot in at City?
 
No , he isn’t suddenly going to be a better passer of the ball, or faster, what makes the two aforementioned so good was their vast natural attributes and Dias hasn’t shown to have these same attributes or be as gifted on the ball as either. He maybe might reach the level of Terry.
 
harms said:
I'd say Vidić or thereabouts. Nesta, as @Fortitude has rightly noticed, is an almost unreachable goal and Rio isn't that much behind him. So far Dias had been nothing but brilliant and he is quite young as well, but I'm not getting a potential GOAT vibes from him.

Defenders are weird though. Varane looked like someone who could potentially reach that level when he was just starting out but eventually he turned out to be "just" world-class. Van Dijk had a huge leap in form to reach a historically great level in an individual season but he didn't look like a potential all-time great before that. So everything is possible.
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You are right good post as always, but VVD was already the best defender in the league at Southampton hence his big fee, all the metrics pointed to this..
 
adexkola said:
I didn't say Maguire is a passive defender. I'm saying that based on his rotten form for United this season, he would actually do worse at City.

I also said the City defender role is not a role that any one can slot into. You saying that "[Dias] barely defends" is absolutely wrong. It takes a lot of concentration, intelligence, and perfection at the simple things, to do well at that role. If Maguire has not demonstrated those qualities at United, why would he slot in at City?
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He has, unless you are talking about his worst this season. I've seen Dias for Portugal and he looks far less of a player without the dominance of the City team around him, no surprise.
 
Righteous Steps said:
You are right good post as always, but VVD was already the best defender in the league at Southampton hence his big fee, all the metrics pointed to this..
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He was very good but nowhere near all-time greats (while at his very best his peak can be compared to those). His career trajectory was also not that of an enigmatic prodigy like Maldini (a successful example) or Varane/de Ligt (not that successful at the moment at least).
 
owlo said:
no.

He changed the title after my reply. Anybody thinking that Nesta and Rio were a similar level is bonkers.

@Fortitude R9 regularly roasted Nesta. Struggled more against the MBC partnership if I recall from very hazy memory. Baresi at CB with Maldini left was pretty much inpenetrable. Possibly why Baresi is rated a touch more highly. His partnership was better.
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Fair enough.

And I am 60/40 in agreement with you. Nesta was probably a tiny level above Rio, but I'm talking Rio 9.7 out of 10 and Nesta 9.8

Beckenbauer / Moore / Baresi above them but I'd happily someone say he's on the same level and I'd not argue too much
 
Righteous Steps said:
You are right good post as always, but VVD was already the best defender in the league at Southampton hence his big fee, all the metrics pointed to this..
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In Liverpool,Van Dijk has been developed a lot in term of tactical awareness,offside controlling and calmness.Compare his peak at southampton versus Liverpool and you will see a lot of differences.

VVD at Southampton didn’t have an awareness and excellent tactical mastermind like VVD at Liverpool.

I have time now,So I will reply comments in my thread.
 
giorno said:
First of all, Nesta had a torrid time against pre-injury Ronaldo, like everyone else
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No, not like anyone else! As he had some good games against Ronaldo, too. The major separation being Nesta was always the best hope - I would not contend any single defender was Ronaldo's match, as I don't believe that's possible, but Nesta is the one I'll take every time for the task.
giorno said:
But yeah Thiago Silva's reading of the game was indeed on par with Nesta's and he was better in the air, better in 1vs1 duels and a superior player on the ball. He did learn a lot from Nesta, afterall
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I'm not going to go back and forth on this one because I believe you've formulated your opinion over a concerted period of time, as have I. I am curious how many others have Thiago Silva in their top 10, however, as am I of people putting him above Nesta (of all people!).
 
harms said:
I know that Nesta kept him quiet in the league before that but still the first thing that I can think about when I hear about Nesta vs Ronaldo is the latter wiping the floor with him in the UEFA Cup final. And I'm not trying to somehow underplay Nesta's greatness — that was exactly why Ronaldo was called O Fenômeno.
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Oh no; I wholeheartedly agree with you, but conclude, as you do, that it's inevitable when it comes to that Ronaldo.
 
Fortitude said:
No, not like anyone else! As he had some good games against Ronaldo, too. The major separation being Nesta was always the best hope - I would not contend any single defender was Ronaldo's match, as I don't believe that's possible, but Nesta is the one I'll take every time for the task.

I'm not going to go back and forth on this one because I believe you've formulated your opinion over a concerted period of time, as have I. I am curious how many others have Thiago Silva in their top 10, however, as am I of people putting him above Nesta (of all people!).
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Thiago Silva is an excellent defender for sure.I admire him a lot and since I’m diehard Milan fan that have followed him for a long time,I wouldn’t put him as top10 center backs for sure.Kaiser,Baresi,Moore,Passarella,Scirea,Figueroa,Nesta,Krol(later career ),Kohler,Chumpitaz….and more than that are superior to him.

Nesta is superior defender to Mr.Silva for sure,I will give my reasons to him.
 
General_Elegancia said:
Thiago Silva is an excellent defender for sure.I admire him a lot and since I’m diehard Milan fan that have followed him for a long time,I wouldn’t put him as top10 center backs for sure.Kaiser,Baresi,Moore,Passarella,Scirea,Figueroa,Nesta,Krol(later career ),Kohler,Chumpitaz….and more than that are superior to him.

Nesta is superior defender to Mr.Silva for sure,I will give my reasons to him.
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This must be an interesting discussion from your perspective as a Milan supporter! With your history of great defenders, you could make a stellar top 10 just from your own club!
 
Good lord. I mean, I have some sympathy for Dias, even him coming from a rival club, but come on how can he be compared to those players, he isn’t better than Ricardo Carvalho with the same age.
 
Leftback99 said:
He has, unless you are talking about his worst this season. I've seen Dias for Portugal and he looks far less of a player without the dominance of the City team around him, no surprise.
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So does Bruno Fernandes, Diogo Jota, Cristiano Ronaldo. If that's how you rate players then it's no surprise you rate Maguire that highly, fair enough.
 
adexkola said:
So does Bruno Fernandes, Diogo Jota, Cristiano Ronaldo. If that's how you rate players then it's no surprise you rate Maguire that highly, fair enough.
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No one who plays for Portugal under Santos should be judged.
 
adexkola said:
So does Bruno Fernandes, Diogo Jota, Cristiano Ronaldo. If that's how you rate players then it's no surprise you rate Maguire that highly, fair enough.
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Thanks for enhancing my point, players can look better depending on the system and quality of team around them.
 
His level has dropped considerably since the Euros...people have kind of figured out his gimmick of throwing himself at the ground to block shots and are using feints against him. He's very good.
 
giorno said:
Thiago Silva was Nesta, but faster and better on the ball

Top 10 mmmmm

Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa, Nesta, Scirea, Ramos, Stam, Krol, Thiago Silva, Rio ***

***Van Dijk's cracking that list in a few years
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I would agree about better on the ball,Mr.Silva have seemed to be better on the ball in term of skills and long passing.
Nesta in his Lazio was one of the fastest defenders in the world,he was a freak of nature during that day.Thiago Silva in his stopper role during 2011-2013 was fast as hell too,I could even say his speed during 2011-2013 was on the same level as Lazio Nesta(maybe even little faster).

Silva during Milan days was a main stopper and his role was following the guideline of his mentor(Nesta).Nesta was a leader of Milan's backline during 2009-2011 and Thiago as a stopper had learned and followed his guideline.


Nesta speed


Thiago Silva is my heir-Nesta
 
giorno said:
Thiago Silva was Nesta, but faster and better on the ball

Top 10 mmmmm

Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa, Nesta, Scirea, Ramos, Stam, Krol, Thiago Silva, Rio ***

***Van Dijk's cracking that list in a few years
Click to expand...
I'm sorry to ask but have you ever watched some of those players? I'm I wrong that you have been reading about few of them on Internet but not actually watched them? Beause I'm just wondering how you can take out Scirea, Stam, Krol and Figueroa but are leaving out players like Cannavaro, Passarella, Hansen, Hierro, Desailly as some examples?
 
90 + 5min said:
I'm sorry to ask but have you ever watched some of those players? I'm I wrong that you have been reading about few of them on Internet but not actually watched them? Beause I'm just wondering how you can take out Scirea, Stam, Krol and Figueroa but are leaving out players like Cannavaro, Passarella, Hansen, Hierro, Desailly as some examples?
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Yes, i have seen all of those players, some obviously much more than others

I'll admit to know little of Hansen, but the others? Seen them, they don't make my top 10. Seem most of Hierro's and Desailly's careers and all of Cannavaro's. Passarella is the only one i had to think about
 
D
90 + 5min said:
I'm sorry to ask but have you ever watched some of those players? I'm I wrong that you have been reading about few of them on Internet but not actually watched them? Beause I'm just wondering how you can take out Scirea, Stam, Krol and Figueroa but are leaving out players like Cannavaro, Passarella, Hansen, Hierro, Desailly as some examples?
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Yep, Terry, Carvalho, Matthaus in his sweeper days, Nadal was quality too for a while and Roberto Ayala. I personally couldnt do a top 10 as there are so many who are too good to leave out
 
giorno said:
Yes, i have seen all of those players, some obviously much more than others

I'll admit to know little of Hansen, but the others? Seen them, they don't make my top 10. Seem most of Hierro's and Desailly's careers and all of Cannavaro's. Passarella is the only one i had to think about
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I ask your opinion Maldini cb version vs Nesta cb version,who you prefer?
I think your opinions are very interesting.
 
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