Ruben Dias thread

General_Elegancia

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He is a complete defender.He has it all characteristics that good defender should be like concentration,leadership,clearances,decision making and tackling abilities.The only ability that I think he‘s not on elite level is his heading abilities.He has one advantage to be on Guardiola’s very stacked team,so he can receive a lot of awards/trophies .The most important things,he is only 24 years old,so he can be developed by Guardiola/future coaches in some departments like ball playing skills,intelligence and heading abilities(honestly,he is not elite level in this department).

So,I ask your opinion about him.
 
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He’s very young for a central defender, but I’d guess not. My guess is his ceiling is around Rio level.
 
He’s very young for a central defender, but I’d guess not. My guess is his ceiling is around Rio level.
Laporte is closer to that level than he is
 
Laporte is closer to that level than he is

Laporte is a few years older if I recall. (And still nowhere near peak Rio) Regardless, it’s all hypothetical really at this stage.
 
The fact they have 2 players capable of reaching those levels shows either how good Guardiola is as a coach or how good they are at transfers. Whatever they are doing it’s been sure as hell better than our defensive recruitment.
 
The fact they have 2 players capable of reaching those levels shows either how good Guardiola is as a coach or how good they are at transfers. Whatever they are doing it’s been sure as hell better than our defensive recruitment.

they‘ve got a team of highly trained specialists throwing £50m a year at centre backs. it’s no surprise that some of them work out for them over the course of a decade. conversely, our scouts have been caught writing defender’s names on a paper aeroplanes and seeing which one flies the furthest before repeating the exercise with transfer values, to see how much we should pay.
 
Whilst I don't doubt his potential -

I've personally made my mind that I kind of won't judge Players at City, Liverpool and Chelsea until they play for those clubs under a manager that is not in the top 1-4 managers bracket in the world.

Im sure playing with such exquisite tactics at their disposal makes their job easier than it does harder.

If someone like Ruben Dias is able to perform this way for City say if Mancini returns as manager - then I'd be able to make my mind up a bit more accurately.

Pep, Klopp and Tuchel have either talked about leaving or seen as short term managers- so I'm personally just waiting to see how they perform outside of that.
 
Laporte is closer to that level than he is
No, he was great 2-3 years ago but always lacked leadership skills and personality. Then another bad injury happened and now he's worse than Stones.
 
Saying the next Nesta is asking if a young offensive player has the potential to be the next Pele/Maradona/Messi. Nesta is arguably the best defender of all-time, in the conversation with Baresi, Figueroa, Kohler and perhaps Maldini as a pure exasperating force against any (although this is where Baresi himself falls short, for me) kind of attack or attackers. One on one, or as an imperious force in a backline (although absolutely nobody can take that particular accolade from Baresi).

It's basically setting whoever you name up for a fall because the answer is always no, unless you're talking about 'the one' for whichever matrix build you think we're in.

Rio's best is still a massive ask; basically reserved for the Rolls Royce of each generation. Perhaps Dias can get there, but it's highly unlikely, but we can but wait and observe; it's not an absolute no like mentioning Nesta, at least, just highly improbable.
 
Saying the next Nesta is asking if a young offensive player has the potential to be the next Pele/Maradona/Messi. Nesta is arguably the best defender of all-time, in the conversation with Baresi, Figueroa, Kohler and perhaps Maldini as a pure exasperating force against any (although this is where Baresi himself falls short, for me) kind of attack or attackers. One on one, or as an imperious force in a backline (although absolutely nobody can take that particular accolade from Baresi).

It's basically setting whoever you name up for a fall because the answer is always no, unless you're talking about 'the one' for whichever matrix build you think we're in.

Rio's best is still a massive ask; basically reserved for the Rolls Royce of each generation. Perhaps Dias can get there, but it's highly unlikely, but we can but wait and observe; it's not an absolute no like mentioning Nesta, at least, just highly improbable.
Just out of curiosity, what made Nesta so much better than Rio? Not having a go because it does seem to be a widely held opinion on here. I remember Nesta being a top player, but didn't see anywhere near as much of him as Rio. Rio was an absolute class act, so Nesta must really have been something special.
 
It’s easier to defend when you play in a team that has the ball 80% of the time. He didn’t look one of the best ever for Portugal this summer. Quite far from it in fact.
 
He barely has to defend in that City team, when he does he doesn't look all that special.
 
I think it’s hard to judge defenders who play for City because of Pep’s unique style of play. They have so much of the ball and do so little defending at times. Most teams only leave 1 up against the City centre backs and put 10 behind the ball.

I know most of the top defenders will have faced defensive sides but as I said Pep is a unique case because his teams dominate games like no team I’ve ever seen.

If Dias can kick on even after Pep goes then we can have this conversation.
 
No idea. He's really quite good but getting ridiculously overrated because the majority of people who follow this sport are bad at telling correlation and causation apart

He's young, maybe he'll get to that level, sure. Why not

Btw: Thiago Silva > Nesta/Rio
 
I think it’s hard to judge defenders who play for City because of Pep’s unique style of play. They have so much of the ball and do so little defending at times. Most teams only leave 1 up against the City centre backs and put 10 behind the ball.

I know most of the top defenders will have faced defensive sides but as I said Pep is a unique case because his teams dominate games like no team I’ve ever seen.

If Dias can kick on even after Pep goes then we can have this conversation.

City always have the best defense in the league even before Pep. Sir Joseph Hart won 4 or 5 Golden Gloves. That's with defenders like Kolo Toure, Lescott, Demichelis, Richard, Clichy, Kolarov, Otamendi.
 
Whilst I don't doubt his potential -

I've personally made my mind that I kind of won't judge Players at City, Liverpool and Chelsea until they play for those clubs under a manager that is not in the top 1-4 managers bracket in the world.

Im sure playing with such exquisite tactics at their disposal makes their job easier than it does harder.

If someone like Ruben Dias is able to perform this way for City say if Mancini returns as manager - then I'd be able to make my mind up a bit more accurately.

Pep, Klopp and Tuchel have either talked about leaving or seen as short term managers- so I'm personally just waiting to see how they perform outside of that.
Weird take. Under that logic we can’t judge our players under Fergie because he was in that top bracket too?
 
they‘ve got a team of highly trained specialists throwing £50m a year at centre backs. it’s no surprise that some of them work out for them over the course of a decade. conversely, our scouts have been caught writing defender’s names on a paper aeroplanes and seeing which one flies the furthest before repeating the exercise with transfer values, to see how much we should pay.

Whats our excuse? We have bought as many CBs some for even more over the past 3/4 years
 
No idea. He's really quite good but getting ridiculously overrated because the majority of people who follow this sport are bad at telling correlation and causation apart

He's young, maybe he'll get to that level, sure. Why not

Btw: Thiago Silva > Nesta/Rio

He was fecking awesome for City last season. Genuine world class and there really aren't many of those around at CB in today's football. But one season doth not a Maldini make.

Maldini > Rio > Nesta > Thiago Silva > Dias. As yet.
 
Weird take. Under that logic we can’t judge our players under Fergie because he was in that top bracket too?

Yeah so be it - I didn't say what I did was right.

But look at Henderson & Milner, if Klopp managed him all of his career, would they be rated accurately as they are being now? They have played good for some average managers but looked another level under Klopp.

The Sterling that plays for Pep Guardiola and has turned in to a goalscoring/tap in machine is different to the one that played for Liverpool (Rodgers if I remember) or even England under Southgate.

Players like Kante have performed for Leicester City under Ranieri, other Chelsea managers, Tuchel and even France. I can judge him more accurately.

Then let's look at David Beckham- maybe it was the media, but people were talking about him as one of the best in his early prime at United under a manager like SAF. Moved to Real Madrid during the galactico period and I could judge him a bit more accurately.

Tevez under SAF was amazing, but for me not that level at his other clubs even though he was a good player.

Another Liverpool player I think about is Trent Alexander Arnold. He is a great young player who is very creating and on the other side of the pitch making the best amount of chances or something in the PL.

People talk about his lack of defensive ability which is true - but this hardly gets penetrated does it? Why? Because Liverpool are playing arguably as one of the 2 best pressing teams in the World due to their manager being Klopp.

If Klopp leaves Liverpool & their manager suddenly randomly turned out to be Jose Mourinho parking the bus; I'm sure TAA would have a worse time than he is having now. It would allow me to judge him as an individual player more accurately.
 
He’s very young for a central defender, but I’d guess not. My guess is his ceiling is around Rio level.
So the title of the thread is "Does Ruben Dias have a potential to be on Alessandro Nesta/Rio Ferdinand level?"

Your reply is you guess not. His ceiling is around Rio's level.... ;)

Personally, I have no idea as I don't want City matches or high lights
 
Nowhere near van Dijk and even statistically he wasnt that much ahead of Maguire in the PL if I recall.

Great defender, very reliable but massively overrated and protected under Pep.

Just like Stones who always looks inferior to Maguire for England.
 
Pep changed their structure to be more compact and defensive to accommodate him and Stones as a pair, I think he’d look a lot more normal (not saying he’s not a good player) without so much protection. I don’t think he’ll reach Kompany’s level let alone someone like Nesta.
 
Just out of curiosity, what made Nesta so much better than Rio? Not having a go because it does seem to be a widely held opinion on here. I remember Nesta being a top player, but didn't see anywhere near as much of him as Rio. Rio was an absolute class act, so Nesta must really have been something special.
He was the whole package, but his timing and spatial awareness in particular was impeccable, which coupled with a very clean tackling technique means he can shut out pretty much any world class forward. At 36 he put a prime Messi in his pocket, that’s how great of a player he was.

He was a bit better than Rio at the things the latter were good at, and have some extra skills on top.
 
This, always been overrated. Just look at his performances for the NT, looks a different player and not in a good way.

Bruno,Cancelo, and Jota have been shit for Portugal as well...which is why they might miss next WC.

Hard to judge a player based on NT performances, plus being coached by Fernando Santos doesn't help at all.
 
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He was the whole package, but his timing and spatial awareness in particular was impeccable, which coupled with a very clean tackling technique means he can shut out pretty much any world class forward. At 36 he put a prime Messi in his pocket, that’s how great of a player he was.

He was a bit better than Rio at the things the latter were good at, and have some extra skills on top.
Thank you for this. I knew that him and Cannavaro were top class at the time, but just assumed that they were all at a similar level. Might have to visit YouTube and check out a few Nesta videos.
 
The problem with evaluating players working for well oiled, perfectly drilled machines is you never know how much is the player, how much is the system. Dortmund and Atalanta, at lower level, are the same. Take many of their players out of the system and they are not wonder players any more.

Therefore, the stress test for them is games where plan A and plan B go awry (think of a red card, extreme weather, or just deciders and final games), and individuals have to step up big time to steady their ship and lead the team? In that sense, we still have much to see, also considering that CBs only enter their prime in their late 20s.

For the months being, still give me Thiago Silva and Van Dijk plus Chiellini or Bonucci as the most complete CBs around, possibly not the quickest anymore but surely the smartest, able to provide an extra touch when needed?
 
The fact they have 2 players capable of reaching those levels shows either how good Guardiola is as a coach or how good they are at transfers. Whatever they are doing it’s been sure as hell better than our defensive recruitment.

Throw enough shit at the wall and some of it is bound to stick.
 
City 20/21 xGA 31.4 PSxGA 32.3 GA 32
City 19/20 xGA 34.7 PSxGA 33.7 GA 35

20/21 xG 73.3
19/20 xG 93

Dias is really good and playing great for them. But correlation =/= causation
 
Just out of curiosity, what made Nesta so much better than Rio? Not having a go because it does seem to be a widely held opinion on here. I remember Nesta being a top player, but didn't see anywhere near as much of him as Rio. Rio was an absolute class act, so Nesta must really have been something special.
Alongside his physical attributes which meant he was one of few players in the literal history of the game who could go toe-to-toe with pre-injury Ronaldo, Nesta's reading of the game was impeccable no matter the system played, partners paired with or type of player he was up against. He had numerous injuries as he aged, so was stripped of the gifts that made him the physical match of any type of forward, and that's when he displayed his intuitive understanding of positioning, spatial principles and how an old wizard goes about modifying his game with a large amount of his pace and agility stripped. Him putting on a performance for the ages against peak Messi, at an age when he really should have been retired, cemented that part of his legacy, because that Messi vs that Nesta was supposed to be a showcase for the former and it ended up being the opposite.

For me, in a literal all-time xi vs Mars or what have you, he's my CB and the position next to him is up for grabs; there's no type of opponent I'd doubt him against, from the small, nimble types (who Rio did not do so/as well against, but we're talking criticism of the elite here, so amongst that non-elite tier, you'd not even put that out as a criticism, but in the all-time stakes, you micro analyse every aspect to separate these guys) to the large, physically intimidating opponents, who again, Rio was not at his very best against - which is where Vidic was invaluable - Nesta's enemy was his own body rather than any type of forward.

In terms of intuitive understanding of defensive play, I'd only have Baresi above Nesta, as, for me, he's the best of all-time in that regard, but if we're ranking each aspect of a defender out of a 100, I'm pretty certain Nesta trumps everyone in terms of being the complete defender. I've always put forward in discussions about this that you put a large, powerful, preferably pacey striker on Baresi and he'll automatically need help, same for Rio with certain types of player; it's the likes of Nesta, Figueroa, Kohler and I'd like to say prime Maldini (but he was full-back then, so not really in this discussion) who that's not the case for, which is why they're the ones jousting for best centre-back, for me.

By the way, this isn't a slight on Rio; he was a magnificent centreback at his best, it's just that we're talking about the best centrebacks to have ever played the game, which is just another kettle of fish - if someone said Rio was the best centreback of all time, they wouldn't be taken seriously, as opposed to Nesta, who is always in the conversation with the aforementioned in this post.
 
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No idea. He's really quite good but getting ridiculously overrated because the majority of people who follow this sport are bad at telling correlation and causation apart

He's young, maybe he'll get to that level, sure. Why not

Btw: Thiago Silva > Nesta/Rio
Blighted by career decisions and not having a resume of epic encounters compared to the other two - I'd like to hear your reasoning, though. In fact, I'd like to see your top 10 of all-time, if you've got that kind of curve ball up your sleeve!
 
Yeah so be it - I didn't say what I did was right.

But look at Henderson & Milner, if Klopp managed him all of his career, would they be rated accurately as they are being now? They have played good for some average managers but looked another level under Klopp.

The Sterling that plays for Pep Guardiola and has turned in to a goalscoring/tap in machine is different to the one that played for Liverpool (Rodgers if I remember) or even England under Southgate.

Players like Kante have performed for Leicester City under Ranieri, other Chelsea managers, Tuchel and even France. I can judge him more accurately.

Then let's look at David Beckham- maybe it was the media, but people were talking about him as one of the best in his early prime at United under a manager like SAF. Moved to Real Madrid during the galactico period and I could judge him a bit more accurately.

Tevez under SAF was amazing, but for me not that level at his other clubs even though he was a good player.

Another Liverpool player I think about is Trent Alexander Arnold. He is a great young player who is very creating and on the other side of the pitch making the best amount of chances or something in the PL.

People talk about his lack of defensive ability which is true - but this hardly gets penetrated does it? Why? Because Liverpool are playing arguably as one of the 2 best pressing teams in the World due to their manager being Klopp.

If Klopp leaves Liverpool & their manager suddenly randomly turned out to be Jose Mourinho parking the bus; I'm sure TAA would have a worse time than he is having now. It would allow me to judge him as an individual player more accurately.
Of all the things that make no sense, this is very near the top of the list.

As for Dias, he’s an excellent defender but they’ve also had great defensive seasons without him. Pep’s style with Rodri and previously Fernandinho in front and tactical fouling means they hardly ever get challenged. They have players with very good attributes, Walkers recovery pace especially is key.
 
So the title of the thread is "Does Ruben Dias have a potential to be on Alessandro Nesta/Rio Ferdinand level?"

Your reply is you guess not. His ceiling is around Rio's level.... ;)

Personally, I have no idea as I don't want City matches or high lights

no.

He changed the title after my reply. Anybody thinking that Nesta and Rio were a similar level is bonkers.

@Fortitude R9 regularly roasted Nesta. Struggled more against the MBC partnership if I recall from very hazy memory. Baresi at CB with Maldini left was pretty much inpenetrable. Possibly why Baresi is rated a touch more highly. His partnership was better.
 
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Just out of curiosity, what made Nesta so much better than Rio? Not having a go because it does seem to be a widely held opinion on here. I remember Nesta being a top player, but didn't see anywhere near as much of him as Rio. Rio was an absolute class act, so Nesta must really have been something special.
Alongside his physical attributes which meant he was one of few players in the literal history of the game who could go toe-to-toe with pre-injury Ronaldo, Nesta's reading of the game was impeccable no matter the system played, partners paired with or type of player he was up against. He had numerous injuries as he aged, so was stripped of the gifts that made him the physical match of any type of forward, and that's when he displayed his intuitive understanding of positioning, spatial principles and how an old wizard goes about modifying his game with a large amount of his pace and agility stripped. Him putting on a performance for the ages against peak Messi, at an age when he really should have been retired, cemented that part of his legacy, because that Messi vs that Nesta was supposed to be a showcase for the former and it ended up being the opposite.

For me, in a literal all-time xi vs Mars or what have you, he's my CB and the position next to him is up for grabs; there's no type of opponent I'd doubt him against, from the small, nimble types (who Rio did not do so/as well against, but we're talking criticism of the elite here, so amongst that non-elite tier, you'd not even put that out as a criticism, but in the all-time stakes, you micro analyse every aspect to separate these guys) to the large, physically intimidating opponents, who again, Rio was not at his very best against - which is where Vidic was invaluable - Nesta's enemy was his own body rather than any type of forward.

In terms of intuitive understanding of defensive play, I'd only have Baresi above Nesta, as, for me, he's the best of all-time in that regard, but if we're ranking each aspect of a defender out of a 100, I'm pretty certain Nesta trumps everyone in terms of being the complete defender. I've always put forward in discussions about this that you put a large, powerful, preferably pacey striker on Baresi and he'll automatically need help, same for Rio with certain types of player; it's the likes of Nesta, Figueroa, Kohler and I'd like to say prime Maldini (but he was full-back then, so not really in this discussion) who that's not the case for, which is why they're the ones jousting for best centre-back, for me.

By the way, this isn't a slight on Rio; he was a magnificent centreback at his best, it's just that we're talking about the best centrebacks to have ever played the game, which is just another kettle of fish - if someone said Rio was the best centreback of all time, they wouldn't be taken seriously, as opposed to Nesta, who is always in the conversation with the aforementioned in this post.

First,I want to answer in long paragraph too but when I see your comment,I would say this is excellent and clear about Nesta attributes.

Excellent job @Fortitude
 
He barely has to defend in that City team, when he does he doesn't look all that special.

Yeh. A 100 y.o. Pepe outperformed him in the least Euro. He looked big and slow at that tournament.
 
Blighted by career decisions and not having a resume of epic encounters compared to the other two - I'd like to hear your reasoning, though. In fact, I'd like to see your top 10 of all-time, if you've got that kind of curve ball up your sleeve!
Thiago Silva was Nesta, but faster and better on the ball

Top 10 mmmmm

Beckenbauer, Baresi, Figueroa, Nesta, Scirea, Ramos, Stam, Krol, Thiago Silva, Rio ***

***Van Dijk's cracking that list in a few years
 
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can remember being surprised it was Lazio that signed Stam considering Nesta was already there.