Having Amad and Garnacho on the wings running at any defence would cause problems, even Rasmus might start scoring with two wingers on either side.
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
Chido will be ready before Rasmus learn to score.
Garnacho basically plays as a winger anyway and he’s not been scoring.
He always speaks really well.
He's ironically saying several things here (I think sincerely) - I didn't think we would be this bad and that we can do better with the current players etc, that many people on here have been denying.
Something Ten Hag simply didn't understand.
That never happened. He wasn't even an employee when the decision was made.
This quote fills me with hope
Why? Pretty much every body knows this. Unless you are an incredible technical player like Modric or David Silva you won't make it in the Premier League.
Everyone except for everyone in charge of Utd’s transfer policy over the past however many years. Which is why the hope bit is relevant.
Your first sentence should read: "The games with Amorim in charge with the squad that he inherited, gives us a15th place with just 18 points, averaging 1.12 points per game.
As for: We picked the wrong guy. We can’t build the club around his system. Nothing suggests that he’s the right man for the job.
Well what he achieved at Sporting suggest that he is indeed the right man for the job. Actually, it is not even what he achieved there, it is more what he accomplished there. So many people point to the relative disparity in quality between the Portuguese league and the Premier League. But they (purposefully) ignore the fact, that everything is relative. For him at Sporting, to overthrow the dominance of Benfica and Porto is what suggests he is precisely the right man for what is needed here.
We have not had any discernible style of play since SAF. You might consider Ole's counter attacking a style of play – but back then fans were wishing we would be able to actually control possession in games and win them. So, for those who wish we could return to those days of winning games with fantastic counter-attacking goals, that is never a style that can get us back to where we want to be. Which is why we would look better against teams that we conceded possession to, but struggled to impose ourselves against anyone else.
Amorim has his system that he will not deviate from. Our troubles do not stem from the players being asked to play a new formation. They are born of the players themselves that we have in our squad – one that has been assembled at huge cost via multiple unsuccessful managers. In the interview with Rio he says this – it is a mentality issue. Maybe it is coaching they have had, maybe it is playing for the club, maybe it is because of results, but maybe it is because of the players. During the Chicago Bulls championship runs, if a player was not able to stand up to or compete with Jordan in practice (which is not the same as expecting them to have the same ability as him), then they were traded. Rashford has been one of our highest earners for years. We have seen him strolling through games. Every player at our club has seen the same thing. This in itself sets such a damaging precedent.
These are just some of the indicators of the level of change that Amorim is trying to accomplish.
I feel he is the right man for the job – yes, I know not every fan will feel that. I think he has an extremely tough job on his hands – But I think every fan will feel that.
So why are fans thinking he should be fired without even having a transfer window and preseason to properly implement and embed his system and ethos?
I didn't know anything about Dorgu until he took the field for us. My first thought when he did? THIS GUY IS AN ABSOLUTE UNIT!
It gives me hope that Amorim is recognizing this about the EPL. It's not just fast, it's physical. That's why Hojlund is struggling. He didn't understand how physical he needed to be, and once he did, he got lost in the physical fight rather than adjust to it. Zirkzee, on the other hand, seems to be adjusting to it and getting better. Garnacho is easily knocked out of the way. Amad tends to avoid it (a great skill of his) but when the physicality of a defender does come into play, he comes up second best.
But what I noticed about Dorgu initially: He didn't adjust to the speed of the EPL game (I mean, he was only two games in, this isn't blame) and that's why he got the red. In a slower league, he beats the other guy to the ball and, more than likely, he's the one that gets fouled. Not in the EPL. The other guy is just as fast, or faster, so Dorgu ends up committing the foul (and getting the red, here). I don't blame him much on this as he wasn't expecting such an outcome. The real question here is, what does he learn?
Most of our guys in midfield get bullied off the ball because they're not physical enough. But Ugarte isn't afraid of it! McFred weren't afraid of it either, and Matic was built for it. That, to me, is our biggest problem in midfield.
As for the formation... When our guys cannot be bothered to know where anyone else is, they hang on to the ball too long, and they cannot make consistently good passes... The formation or style doesn't matter. They were failing to do these basic things under Ole, Rangnick, and ten Hag. If a fullback cannot, at some reasonable level, make the transition to wing back, they I say they're lacking in their professional development to the point that they are overspecialized and not suited to this level of play. Outside of that, most of the positions just have a little bit of adjustment to make in their thinking. They've had more than three months now. It's them, not Amorim.
Seems to be a pretty decent communicator in his acquired tongue, wonder if he's substantially more articulate in his native tongue or not.
I wonder how long Carrick will stay top of such a list? Could be years.
At least he understands and hopefully we will see much better recruitment from now on.
I like how in Ipswich game he made an interesting structure change compared to the previous games.
During the build up play and on possession, he assigned Bruno as lone 6 and played a deep playmaker with freedom to form a diamond. Bruno as lone 6, Ugarte as the right sided, Garnacho as the left sided, while Zirkzee as the no 10.
I wonder if this is going to be something we will see much more regularly or something he only adopted just for the Ipswich game.
During the build up play and on possession, he assigned Bruno as lone 6 and played a deep playmaker with freedom to form a diamond. Bruno as lone 6, Ugarte as the right sided, Garnacho as the left sided, while Zirkzee as the no 10.
I wonder if this is going to be something we will see much more regularly or something he only adopted just for the Ipswich game.
"Amorim has his system that he will not deviate from. Our troubles do not stem from the players being asked to play a new formation."
What if this system doesn’t work in the most physical and competitive league in the world? What if it only works in the Portuguese league, where a team like Sporting faces weaker opponents almost every week? Sporting is comparable to Celtic—dominant in a lesser league.
Is that enough? Can you really implement the same tactics from a successful team in Portugal or Scotland and expect success in the Premier League?
Should we completely overhaul the entire squad to fit a formation that might not even work? It’s insane.
What position exactly would it be insanity to buy a good player in?
Who would it be 'insane' to sell because of the formation?
Garnacho has been playing on the wing really, Amorim has adjusted that role to suit him. The problem is Garnacho has just been poor/greedy/wasteful (take your pick of which on a weekly basis).
Amad has been fine and has played his best football for us in the 3421.
We have to. To me, the biggest reason why we struggle against most teams is because we lose the physical battle. Only when we step up our intensity to meet them in the fight do we look like competing. This team often looks like they believe they’re better players and therefore they don’t need to fight, but they actually need to fight harder because they are often physically outmatched.
Of course its obvious that fitness and physicality is sorely lacking in the side but its not just that. Its the combination of physicality, technique and footballing brain that separates the best from the rest. The best PL teams are physically dominant, play great football AND are smart. So we need to be looking for players who have those qualities in spades.
Very hard to really assess Amorim in turning things around. The interview with Rio he comes across well and is clearly able to liaise his points critically for all to interpret. The only negative from that interview is whenever Rio asked about the methodology behind turning things around, Ruben highlighted being out of ideas almost and having tried everything he knows which has yielded very little effect.
It's worrying but what it does signify is he will have to do things that he's not accustomed too. How that correlates to the pitch I don't know, but an Arsenal fan on one of the fan channels made a great point that Arteta had a similar (less severe) issue where he was constantly changing the shape of the team while still attempting to play out from the back. But something clicked clearly and incrementally they improved over time.
I think if Amorim wants to improve and potentially keep his job he'll have to make further adjustments to whatever his philosophy is or the way it's adopted in order to by his own words, get rid of the embarrassment of constantly losing. It's good to hear that this current standard is even worse than what he anticipated. If he demonstrates some capacity to learn and make adaptations more succinctly he'll give himself more of a chance of success at United.
It's worrying but what it does signify is he will have to do things that he's not accustomed too. How that correlates to the pitch I don't know, but an Arsenal fan on one of the fan channels made a great point that Arteta had a similar (less severe) issue where he was constantly changing the shape of the team while still attempting to play out from the back. But something clicked clearly and incrementally they improved over time.
I think if Amorim wants to improve and potentially keep his job he'll have to make further adjustments to whatever his philosophy is or the way it's adopted in order to by his own words, get rid of the embarrassment of constantly losing. It's good to hear that this current standard is even worse than what he anticipated. If he demonstrates some capacity to learn and make adaptations more succinctly he'll give himself more of a chance of success at United.
Good to see, the physicality and athleticism levels of this team need to be raised
The answer is new players, in both our and Arsenal’s case. He’s tried everything with these players, but that doesn’t mean a new 11 needed. If you don’t take this interview in isolation then it’s clear he’s not just out of ideas tactically, but maybe in trying to get this group to do what’s needed. He’s said himself be sees all the issues, he’s said the team come out and implement nothing they’ve worked on some games. I think it’s obvious what he’s really thinking.
This formation requires highly specialized players in every position.
- We need wing-backs instead of traditional full-backs.
- Our left and right center-backs must also be capable of playing as full-backs.
- Our central midfielders must be true box-to-box players with the stamina to handle being outnumbered against most opponents.
- Our attacking midfielders must function as wingers, number 10s, and even number 9s.
- Our striker must be quick and constantly make deep runs.
Maybe only:
These are the only players who fit the system and some of them aren't even god enough for Man Utd.
Dorgu (But is he good enough)
Bruno(Off mid)
Maguire(Central in a back 3)
Ugarte(CM)
Maybe Martinez (LCD)
Are we really prepared to give Amorim 4-6 transfer windows to overhaul the squad for a system that simply doesn’t work? And then, once he’s inevitably sacked, we’ll be left with a squad full of specialists for this rigid setup, forcing us to start from scratch again.
Have you seen any real evidence that we should commit to this system long-term? Amorim will eventually leave, and we'll be stuck with a squad built for a style that only works for a top team in the Portuguese league dominating lower-tier opposition.
We're constantly outnumbered in midfield. We have no width, and the only players who get one-on-one situations with the opposition full-backs are our wing-backs.
I absolutely hate this system. It would never work in a truly competitive league like the Premier League.
Good players on realistic contracts will be easily moved on whatever the formation.
A good wing back could easily transition to be a good attacking fullback or a useful winger, otherwise easily moved on.
We need better CMs with PL physicality regardless - not a formation issue.
We need faster CBs regardless - not a formation issue.
We certainly need a better striker(s) regardless - not a formation issue.
Nothing wrong with buying good, versatile AMs.
The players we have aren't good enough for a 4-3-3 either. The system isn't the issue, poor, overpaid players is.
All true, but I still can't understand why we should play 3421 when no other top club do it?
Exactly, surely we should be mimicking the clubs actually doing well in the PL, rather than spending millions building around something that may not work. Don't think people actually realize how risky this path is, especially in our current state, we simply cannot afford another season like this season.
----------------Onana
Dalot Maguire de ligt Shaw/Dorgu
----------Casemiro-Ugarte----------------
Amad---------Bruno----------Garnacho
------------------Rash---------------------
If we had played like this a whole season with ETH we wouldn't be 14th
Agreed.
We really need to have a:
striker!!!!!!!!
CM
CB
RB
Nice to have
RW
LW
GK
Have everyone forgot that we won the FA Cup last season!!!!!
Amorim is the worst manager post Sir Alex.
Positionally, he seems to be playing more narrow under Amorim. He also hasn't been given the same license to take players on under this dull system.
Trying to copy what others do but with worse players hasn't got us very far.
City just won the treble with what was mainly a 3-2-4-1 in possession.
Once we have some actual good players the formation argument might make more sense. At the moment it's just re-arranging deckchairs on the titanic.
On the flipside. Not being a physical monster hasn't affected Gundogan, B Silva, Jesus, Maddison, Sala, Jota. Nor did it stop D Silva, Mata, Pedro, Navas, the list goes on of slight in build midfielders/wingers who have thrived in the PL. City and Arsenal have had a bunch of these types of players under Pep and Wenger.
Hopefully we see a few youth players from now till May in the league, only pride to play for, let's see if they're any use, on todays game, think Rasmus will finally score
The issue with physicality is that fans want players who have great physical/athletic qualities, great technical qualities, are young enough to be 'hungry' but not young enough to be too raw, and they want the club to pay below-market rate wages and transfer fees for these players. That's not possible most of the time so you have to compromise. The risks are in where you compromise, what kind of balance you find, etc. It's not easy.
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Dreadful lineup.
Don't disagree at all with that logic, Antony not physically up to it but let's see if he applies that logic to Garnacho and Mainoo. The latter of which looks like he's playing football in a soiled nappy.
The direction we are building as a club with him.... I don't think I'm a fan and it's not the direction I want this club to go. Nothing against him personally and I'm sure he can be a very good manager. But yeah after half a season, even ignoring results and performances and purely looking at what sort of football he'll ideally want us playing and what players he'll go for, just not a fan of that.
Not sure why you included Salah. He's strong as feck and can hold off any big full back.
This seems so obvious but many on here are determined to deny it
I'm in agreement with this. He speaks well and I'm sure he'll be successful elsewhere but how he wants his teams to play isn't how I want United to play. Before we hired him, I almost forgot how much I hated a back 5. I also feel uncomfortable with the idea of selling Garnacho to fund the signing of one of his number 10 positions.
This isn't ideal but I'd rather we paid the money to sack him than change the squad in the summer to suit his formation.