LvG could actually win games though and did adapt when he wasn't
Ruben Amorim - Manchester United Head Coach
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
Yep LVG especially made a complete mess of the squad. Sold good/decent players for button and replaced them with expensive inferior players.
I guess we have to accept unless we have a super long term manager, maybe less power should be given on transfers. Then again, why hire a manager if you won't give him the players he wants for his style etc? It's a kind of catch 22 situation.
I wonder what can be done so the club / team finally changes attitude for good. Leaders in the dressing room might be a start
I don't disagree. They were past the peak of their powers.
With Ten Hag and Ruben, both were exciting managers to get in.
Who else was available to get in that's the problem. Using the approach of an exciting younger manager could be better long term. Obviously it needs to work out first.
There is no catch 22, head coaches are the norm and have been the norm for more than 50 years outside of the UK and it's now the norm in the UK. Clubs are the ones signing players, they are the ones stuck with the cost of these players that's why clubs hire head coaches, their job is to make the best out of whatever squad their club built. Now ideally, you can listen to suggestions and within reason accomodate a good head coach but at no point should any club give players unless these players are good assets in the absence of this head coach.
Perhaps that balance is missing. On one hand a club could sign a player and a manager might object to it. The club can sign anyway and the player won't play him or use him much. But there has got to be a structure in place that the sporting director and the manager agree that the player is right for the club..... whether the manager will be there or not because as you said, the club are the ones paying for him.
I do think there must be importance for the manager when signing players because it's the manager who controls the team and the style of play etc..
Our right side would get destroyed. Casemiro and Maguire don't have the legs, opposition would have a free run to our goal. All United fans moaned that Dorgu should be on LWB and you've got him as a right forward. Where are the goals coming from in that setup? It's no different tbh, we'd face the same issues.
Mid table level back 4
Bottom 3rd midfield
Bottom 3rd forward line (where's the goals?)
I've often wondered why he doesn't try playing 4231 like the majority of teams sitting above us rather than 352 which at least 3 of the teams below us have been trying all season.
I had seen that he did start vs Liverpool. Will you forgive me for not checking the starting line-up of a match that kicked-off 25 minutes before I made that post mate?
I take it you're not a Rashford fan then?
On the bench again today. So far he’s started 1 in 4 (subbed off after 67 minutes in that one)
It can't be fitness at this rate
It’s a bit off topic for this thread but this lad was supposed to be the jewel in our crown. The cream of the crop and paid accordingly. Says it all that when a different club/manager has him at their disposal he immediately becomes a squad player. Lucky for Emery he’s not generating pages of headlines for daring to drop the golden boy.
With the presser comments it just seems like Amorim hates his players.
What makes you say that?
If you don’t think Pep, Klopp, Ancelotti, Simone, Luis Enrique, Conte don’t have a say in first team transfers, you are crazy. All of them have a veto or at very least input on transfers.
People think that the sporting director / head of recruitment operate in a silo and get no pushback from the “head coach”, but that is bullshit. You can bet that the sporting director has bonuses tied to KPIs (academy players graduating to the first team, direct first team transfer appearances, etc.)
Reorganization doesn’t automatically bring about organizational competency, no more than changing back to a 4-2-3-1 would catapult us up to winning the league. We’re an incompetent club right now, and INEOS has yet to prove they are better stewards of Manchester United than the Glazers. That’s a fact if we are judging on results alone.
The greatest amount of stability we have had post SAF was with Ole, and that’s a fact. I’m not saying we sack Amorim, but these trendy managers have objectively failed so far. Formations are not the problem, nor are they the answer.
Other than Jose I haven't been excited for any managerial appointment post SAF. I think the club need to stop thinking in terms of hiring a man ''long term''. After a honeymoon period they should only remain in the job as long as they're progressing.
It should be Success>longevity not longevity>success.
We've arguably given every manager post SAF too much time.
Just like in Football Manager, a back four system will always be superior to a back three system in real life too.
Or hasn't started in 2 months or so so needs to build his fitness and the manager is using his speed when the game gets a bit tired
I think they were thinking long term definitely with Moyes, Ten Hag and Ruben.
With Jose, LVG I think was a medium term thing.
Ole, I'm not sure to be honest.
I agree with your formula. Sometimes success does come after periods of hardships. It's what happened with Matt and Fergie.
The one good thing I will say about United. Although there has been numerous of managers, aside from Moyes which was just a disaster, each manager has been given time. On the other hand, perhaps at times they were too late sacking the manager.
Our history tells us the right man will come along and grab their claws into the club. Whether it's Ruben or not, time will tell. When you think about it, United really have had just two long (very long) periods of success under Matt and Fergie. It accounts for 50 years of history. They won various cups in between but I mean proper dominant spells of success.... which is more than 99 percent of clubs. I'm just saying.
I didn't say that they don't have a say and I literally said that good coaches can be accomodated within reason. But the teams are built by the club for the club, they are not built by the head coach for the head coach and head coaches routinely have to deal with signing that aren't their choice Salah is an example. Neuer is an other example for Bayern and Van gaal though he got sacked before coaching him, for Van gaal there is an example of how it can go wrong with Riquelme.
Dalot and Dorgu would make a good right side.
Casemiro and Eriksen lack the legs but bring more creativity to the side compared to a 3rd CB. That's the point of playing them for 45 min each.
Bruno and Garnacho for the goals, just like today. Höjlund won't score anyway.
Not a great lineup, tbh, but I would try it. The current 3421 is not working.
I see we are back to forcing the coaching staff to be the public face of the owners' decisions.
The cnut Ratcliffe was happy to grant interviews left, right and centre when the fans were hanging new hopes on him. Now that the club's actions are widely considered disgraceful it's Amorim who has to field all the press questions on redundancies etc.
Where's Ratcliffe? Where's Berrada? Where's Brailsford?
As if there isn't enough pressure on Amorim as it is he has to be the de facto face of Ratcliffe's redundancies.
The cnut Ratcliffe was happy to grant interviews left, right and centre when the fans were hanging new hopes on him. Now that the club's actions are widely considered disgraceful it's Amorim who has to field all the press questions on redundancies etc.
Where's Ratcliffe? Where's Berrada? Where's Brailsford?
As if there isn't enough pressure on Amorim as it is he has to be the de facto face of Ratcliffe's redundancies.
When have the CEO or owners ever sat down to field questions with the press? I can’t think of a time that’s happened at any club apart from pre agreed meetings and forums. Nobody can control the questions being put to Amorim either, perhaps the press officer or Ruben himself needs to shut it down but personally I think he’s answered the questions fine.
Hopefully the media get bored but they love a bad news story because our fans (not the scousers, City fans or opposition fans) eat that shit up and start frothing from the mouth over it. It’s like a self fulfilling prophecy at the moment because our own fans make the place toxic.
Again, I agree.
I consider myself a patient person, also somebody who looks for the positives. And I'm struggling right now.
I like Amorim's honesty in interviews but I'd like a bit more fight from him. It's fine to acknowledge the difficulty of the task in front of him but give us some reassurance like "I will turn this around" or "I'm the right man for the job".
I have seen Aulas do it with Lyon, there also Diouf with Marseille years ago.
It’s hard, especially when you have a bunch of players so lacking in technical ability, physicality and general footballing IQ.
We know that Amorim has a system, if the players are still running around like headless chickens, why is it people refuse to blame… the headless chickens?
Amorim really should be batting away those questions with a simple statement about being sad about the job losses but focusing on improving results. It’s not the first time he’s been talking in a way that he doesn’t need to.
I’ve only looked at the headline quotes which is what a lot of football fans will do, but it seems he’s suggesting the players are at fault for the financial problems like job losses. Obviously it would be easier if we were in the champions league, but we were losing money even in the years we had champions league football. He’s coming across as protecting the Glazers, and that won’t do him any favours with the fans.
I’ve only looked at the headline quotes which is what a lot of football fans will do, but it seems he’s suggesting the players are at fault for the financial problems like job losses. Obviously it would be easier if we were in the champions league, but we were losing money even in the years we had champions league football. He’s coming across as protecting the Glazers, and that won’t do him any favours with the fans.
I didn't read anything close to that from that. More like making the players look deep into the mirror and see if they have performed up the standard the club bought them for or not.
I think we are dealing with a few things here. The Salah / Klopp thing has been greatly exaggerated because it’s a great story. How much of a fight Klopp put up for the Salah signing, well, we’ll never know. Paper tiger?
Also, when you’re going back to Neuer and Riquelme, you’re proving my point. These are exceptions to the rule. Mostly, there is discussion and probably consensus after discussion.
In regards to youth prospects, I am sure that there is some flexibility on the side of the sporting director. I agree that the players should be bought for the club, not the head coach. But there is just as much a chance that recruitment fails as the coach fails, or even the player fails. Humans are not perfect. You make it sound like the difference between the English structure and the continental structure is like cavemen finger-painting vs the splitting of the atom.
Frankly, it’s easier for clubs like Brighton to exist because they have a remit to buy and sell, make a profit, but not expected to win trophies.
My point is that there is nuance here, which doesn’t play well in a forum. Do I think in a healthy organization the manager / head coach should have input into who is bought and sold in the first team??? Absolutely. Do I think he should have the final word? No. It’s not his club, he’s an employee.
I do believe City would not be CITY without Pep. He had a huge influence over the club. Same with Klopp, Simeone, etc.
I don’t think Amorim should be sacked. I do think he needs much better players. I do think he has not performed to expectations. I do think that if he survives, he should have some say in in first team transfer dealings.
Things can be two things or even multiple things but the internet is great at building opposite opinion camps who deal in absolutes. But we all know that real life isn’t like that.
The club shouldn't wait for another Busby or Ferguson. We should be in the same position as our peers like Bayern, Barca and Real. Managerial changes should happen whenever needed without it affecting our overall chances of success.
Though that'll take a bit of work as we've spent (wasted) the last decade throwing all our eggs in one Managerial basket after another.
I don't mind him either but he's maybe a bit too honest for his own good.
He's a young manager and hopefully he'll learn how to handle the British media.
I do agree that his honesty/negativity is getting a bit down heartening. I get it that he says it like it is but he is radiating stress and worry. Very tough position to be in though.