Roy Keane

[Dirty Schwein]

Keane being a massive prick here. Cahill brought up some good points Keane just didn't want to hear it.

What Roy doesn't understand is that any team can lose, even when they're the better team. Arsenal last week for example lost to Leicester to a late goal. That happens.

United got manhandled by Spurs, were spineless against Chelsea, played like the away team at Old Trafford against Arsenal. Even against Brighton we were lucky to win.

That's 4 bad games already. Without even mentioning Palace. There's a problem. We look far worse than last year.

Arsenal are not setting the league alight but are at least showing improvement. They've got in a defender and a good dmf as their defence was so leaky. That's progress.

United had an awful transfer window and now it's showing on the pitch.

 

[SuperiorXI]

He is being a prick but Arsenal are getting much more praise than that performance deserved. United were fecking dreadful but Arsenal still needed a gift from Pogba to win the game.

If anyone wants to watch a well organised, hard-working team tear United a new one at Old Trafford then yesterday’s game was the least impressive of the season so far. Brighton and Palace (who are very average teams) caused us much more problems than Arsenal did and Keane is spot on to try and intervene in all the smoke being blown up Arteta’s arse.

Agreed 100%. I thought Arsenal were actually really poor, we made them look good if anything. They didn't threaten DDG much for all their possession.

 

[Old Ma Crow]

After thumping RBL at home did anyone expect a performance like that against Arsenal in a game that was settled by one mistake? I think Keane is just countering the pro Arteta and Arsenal hype.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Agreed 100%. I thought Arsenal were actually really poor, we made them look good if anything. They didn't threaten DDG much for all their possession.

After thumping RBL at home did anyone expect a performance like that against Arsenal in a game that was settled by one mistake? I think Keane is just countering the pro Arteta and Arsenal hype.

I didn't watch the full interview so I could be wrong but I don't think People are saying Arsenal looked like Bayern Munich yesterday... Well not my arsenal following mates anyway. What they are saying is that they're seeing progress.

Normally you press them, bully them up a bit, whisper the word "Deeney" into their ears and they usually fall apart (or Mustafi just turns around and gives the opposition a through ball).

Now they look a lot more solid. Even in their losses, the opponent has to work harder as opposed to shoulder barge their players a couple of times.

 

[horsechoker]

I'm not buying no leaders as much as I would've in the past. Rashford and Bruno are arguably our two biggest leaders but they didn't have the best game. Yet, two weeks ago, we watched them lead us to victory over one of the best teams in Europe.

Let's not forget that prime Ferguson teams lost with leaders like Scholes, Neville, Giggs and Keane.

 

[A-man]

Ageeed, but my point is that he has been consistent with this, he hasn't just started saying it with Ole, he said it under Jose as well so I don't get the "he's just defending his mate" stuff cos I don't think him and Jose are mates. I'm not disagreeing regarding Ole, that's another topic all together just that Keane clearly thinks the players are the issue and has said it for about 3-4 years now.

I haven't really followed what Keane ahs been complaining about. I just saw this in the paper yesterday and thought it was a not so bright analysis. But it is a little bit of a trend that old players are expert commentators and complain about todays players, and often praise themselves and their old team mates.

 

[SuperiorXI]

I didn't watch the full interview so I could be wrong but I don't think People are saying Arsenal looked like Bayern Munich yesterday... Well not my arsenal following mates anyway. What they are saying is that they're seeing progress.

Normally you press them, bully them up a bit, whisper the word "Deeney" into their ears and they usually fall apart (or Mustafi just turns around and gives the opposition a through ball).

Now they look a lot more solid. Even in their losses, the opponent has to work harder as opposed to shoulder barge their players a couple of times.

They're still Arsenal though, we should of done them 2 or 3 nil yesterday, they had a soft underbelly. We simply just didn't turn up, inconsistency FC.

 

[Lentwood]

Doesn’t fit my ignorance so let’s disregard it. They were successful playing a diamond.

“To your knowledge” seems fairly limited so that doesn’t hold much weight. Chelsea used it both under Mourinho and Ancelotti.

Educate yourself.

https://insidefutbol.com/2009/09/15/tactical-analysis-chelseas-diamond-formation/10179/
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2009/aug/19/deco-chelsea-diamond-formation


As @youngrell says, Madrid have also used it.

No. It’s been disregarded because Toronto isn’t elite level football.

The fact that you have had to go back to 2009 to find an article about Chelsea playing it for a bit and some other posting about Real playing it once or twice (when everybody knows they famously had the Ronaldo/Bale/Benzema forward three (or iterations of) for their recent period of success means you’re really just highlighting the rare exceptions that prove the rule. Teams haven’t played that way successfully for a long period. Certainly not in the PL

 

[Lentwood]

They weren't major aggressors and neither were Arsenal. To be that you have to get lots of shots on target, you have to do more than win the passing.

I get what you mean because I have rubbished the idea that Arsenal dominated yesterday (they were very average with the ball, poor even) however, my point is territory-wise, we struggled to impose ourselves in both matches. My theory is that we’re too narrow in a diamond and the forward passes are too obvious/predictable so its really easy for good pressing teams to box us in.

We can all be critical of some of our players on the ball but its hard for any midfielder to play in tight areas consistently at pace against good opponents

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

He is being a prick but Arsenal are getting much more praise than that performance deserved. United were fecking dreadful but Arsenal still needed a gift from Pogba to win the game.

If anyone wants to watch a well organised, hard-working team tear United a new one at Old Trafford then yesterday’s game was the least impressive of the season so far. Brighton and Palace (who are very average teams) caused us much more problems than Arsenal did and Keane is spot on to try and intervene in all the smoke being blown up Arteta’s arse.

Arteta's getting credit because he's got his side doing things Arsenal teams haven't done since Wenger; defend solidly as a team, win the midfield battle, hang tough in the kind of grim arm wrestle we both served up yesterday. That isn't smoke up his arse for me, that's acknowledging tangible improvements in certain areas of Arsenal's game. Keane comes across as petulant because he'd rather trot out the same line about United ('no leaders, bad group of characters' etc.) than even give Arteta a scintilla of credit for the decent repair job he's doing with a squad that as far as I can see is hardly bursting with quality, leadership and character.

 

[poleglass red]

I've no issues with what Keane said really, he's been consistent in his views that the teams lacks leaders, which it does. I think he didn't like Cahill's assertion that Arsenal are on the right track, they've lost 3 league games themselves already. They weren't good yesterday at all, it was 2 bad teams seperated by a needless penalty given away by us.You can tell he fears for Ole, who I'm sure is aware of the lack of leadership in his team. He's trying to address that with signings like Bruno and the experience of Cavani and Telles. The only worry is will what he has get him through until next transfer window.Re the lack of leadership, some of that has to be levelled at the management as well. We see the top mangers on the sidelines showing emotion, we've our 3 sitting watching on a ipad in the stand

 

[SuperiorXI]

I get what you mean because I have rubbished the idea that Arsenal dominated yesterday (they were very average with the ball, poor even) however, my point is territory-wise, we struggled to impose ourselves in both matches. My theory is that we’re too narrow in a diamond and the forward passes are too obvious/predictable so its really easy for good pressing teams to box us in.

We can all be critical of some of our players on the ball but its hard for any midfielder to play in tight areas consistently at pace against good opponents

Agree with this, we're also sloppy in those key areas and any team with an ounce of counter-attacking ability will be dangerous if they can get the ball in those positions.

One thing though, you don't always need to be imposing and have all the possession etc to win. Some of the greatest teams could win even when giving the appearance of losing the game. One of my favourite examples of this was our 1-0 win against Barcelona, Paul Scholes classic.

But what I will say is we should be more imposing in the PL against the likes of fecking Cardiff, Brighton and little Arsenal.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Funny ever since Bruno did that to Lindelof during the Sevilla game Lindelof been much better..

He needs to be given license to shake the team up. It’s a captains job. Keane and Robson would tell it like it is. Either that or lead by example. We seem to like Maguire as captain but he’d be better off concentrating on his own game

 

[Irwin99]

He is being a prick but Arsenal are getting much more praise than that performance deserved. United were fecking dreadful but Arsenal still needed a gift from Pogba to win the game.

If anyone wants to watch a well organised, hard-working team tear United a new one at Old Trafford then yesterday’s game was the least impressive of the season so far. Brighton and Palace (who are very average teams) caused us much more problems than Arsenal did and Keane is spot on to try and intervene in all the smoke being blown up Arteta’s arse.

I can see where you're coming from with your view on Arsenal because, like Chelsea the week before, they were quite clueless in attack for the most part. The big thing I notice though is that in terms of passing and movement them and Chelsea looked a lot more comfortable on the ball than we ever have under Ole. It's little things that you look at with some oppo teams and think that comes from training and good coaching and I just don't see that with United. Players like Maguire, Lindelof and Shaw are, in theory, good enough technically to pass their way out of a press and although Fred and Mctom aren't exactly Xavi and Iniesta I think they could be coached to be better on the ball and have better awareness. You never know with rumours how much of it is bs but I wouldn't be surprised if the ones saying that training under ole is very basic are indeed true.

Keane is my all time favourite player but I think he talks too much about 'hunger and desire' when I just don't see a lack of that from this United team. I see a basic counter attacking team that gets knackered during parts of the season when the players are run into the ground or is clueless when up against a team that doesn't leave space for a counter.

 

[Godfather]

He is being a prick but Arsenal are getting much more praise than that performance deserved. United were fecking dreadful but Arsenal still needed a gift from Pogba to win the game.

If anyone wants to watch a well organised, hard-working team tear United a new one at Old Trafford then yesterday’s game was the least impressive of the season so far. Brighton and Palace (who are very average teams) caused us much more problems than Arsenal did and Keane is spot on to try and intervene in all the smoke being blown up Arteta’s arse.

I agree. Although watching them in the first half preventing us from even crossing the half way line was depressing. They didn't do nearly enough for the control they had mind.

 

[Andersonson]

Keano is just an angry fan. He is the opposite of Ole, who comes across as just too damn nice. We need someone who is calm like Ole but who can also channel some anger when necessary.

Ask former players about Ole. Or even the players.

Ole is known to be very ruthless at times. He is generally a nice guy, but dont let that fool you.

 

[ghagua]

Arteta's getting credit because he's got his side doing things Arsenal teams haven't done since Wenger; defend solidly as a team, win the midfield battle, hang tough in the kind of grim arm wrestle we both served up yesterday. That isn't smoke up his arse for me, that's acknowledging tangible improvements in certain areas of Arsenal's game. Keane comes across as petulant because he'd rather trot out the same line about United ('no leaders, bad group of characters' etc.) than even give Arteta a scintilla of credit for the decent repair job he's doing with a squad that as far as I can see is hardly bursting with quality, leadership and character.

Exactly! Also playing some nice passing football does not hurt either. We could not string 2 passes together as our players simply were not moving to get free from their markers.

 

[Pav1878]

Keane is right. We lack leaders, we lack intensity. If things aren't going well, make that challenge, 'smash someone' as he put it, to at least put up a fight and maybe get some sort of foothold in the game.

It may seem old fashioned but there are times when you do need to puff out your chest and make sure you are competitive and first to the challenge and first to the second balls. It's amazing what that can do for a team's mindset and makes the opposition think.

Why we wait until going one nil down before start playing with tempo.

If we don't get a goal on the break and then draw out a team, we don't seem to do well in games. We are reactive and not proactive and that is something our manager is too. It feeds down to the players.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Exactly! Also playing some nice passing football does not hurt either. We could not string 2 passes together as our players simply were not moving to get free from their markers.

For me 'on the right road' is about right for Arteta at Arsenal. They're not brilliant and there's plenty of work to do but they seem to have the basics covered, particularly without the ball, and that's something you couldn't say from late-Wenger until recently so some credit is due. Anything other than 'good plan, executed well, good without the ball (Elneny in particular), tidy if uninspiring with it, United were crap though' I would say is probably going too far in praise of them from yesterday.

As for Keane he's not wrong about our lack of leadership, character and quality generally, and obviously when compared to PL teams Keane himself was involved in today's vintage are nowhere near. But he's so obviously loath to criticise Ole in any way, which doesn't help give a rounded picture of our woes in the PL this year.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I agree. Although watching them in the first half preventing us from even crossing the half way line was depressing. They didn't do nearly enough for the control they had mind.

It was depressing but that was all about our own incompetence rather than Arsenal doing anything special. Completely incapable of dribbling past a man or passing through the lines. Made a very average high press look like peak Barcelona.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It was depressing but that was all about our own incompetence rather than Arsenal doing anything special. Completely incapable of dribbling past a man or passing through the lines. Made a very average high press look like peak Barcelona.

Agreed... why it was so annoying really, because the tiniest bit of guile or a decent pass would have broken through it so easily.

The positions of players didn't help either, all so narrow it made it pretty easy to cut out passing lanes... that and our passing was just terrible.

 

[Oggmonster]

I haven't really followed what Keane ahs been complaining about. I just saw this in the paper yesterday and thought it was a not so bright analysis. But it is a little bit of a trend that old players are expert commentators and complain about todays players, and often praise themselves and their old team mates.

He was our captain for part of our most successful period ever in a team that dominated games and showed for more bollocks than this team ever will. It might be on trend or whatever but I think Roy Keane criticising this team has more right than most others considering how shit and underwhelming they are and how successful his team was.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Ask former players about Ole. Or even the players.

Ole is known to be very ruthless at times. He is generally a nice guy, but dont let that fool you.

 

[El Zoido]

Ask former players about Ole. Or even the players.

Ole is known to be very ruthless at times. He is generally a nice guy, but dont let that fool you.

He doesn’t scream in peoples faces, he said in a podcast that he deals with it by quietly cutting the player out of the team, which he’s done many times already in his tenure. Pogba is next.

 

[poleglass red]

one of his main gripes was Ole saying the team lacked motivation in the 1st half. Its Utd at home v Arsenal, one of the main challengers for us re top 4, lack of motivation shouldn't be a reason. Players should be self motivated. We've got big problems if players can't motivate themselves when playing Arsenal.

 

[Volumiza]

He was our captain for part of our most successful period ever in a team that dominated games and showed for more bollocks than this team ever will. It might be on trend or whatever but I think Roy Keane criticising this team has more right than most others considering how shit and underwhelming they are and how successful his team was.

And some captain at that. I don't always agree with everything he says but if any ex player has earned the right to rip into our team it is him. He was so uncompromising and gave everything each match.

one of his main gripes was Ole saying the team lacked motivation in the 1st half. Its Utd at home v Arsenal, one of the main challengers for us re top 4, lack of motivation shouldn't be a reason. Players should be self motivated. We've got big problems if players can't motivate themselves when playing Arsenal.

Exactly. The manager should almost not need to say anything to encourage any Utd team to want to go and steamroller Arsenal.

 

[Andersonson]

Great contribution. I take it that you're one of those guys who find your news on tiktok or something.

 

[Oggmonster]

And some captain at that. I don't always agree with everything he says but if any ex player has earned the right to rip into our team it is him. He was so uncompromising and gave everything each match.



Exactly. The manager should almost not need to say anything to encourage any Utd team to want to go and steamroller Arsenal.

Yep, it seems for all people who moan that our players get criticised they're quick to throw club legends under the bus for daring to ask for more off our under performing players. Neville, Scholes, Keane, Rio etc have been slated loads on here over the last few years for calling our players out. You'd think we were winning trophy after trophy and not massively underperforming for years.

 

[bsCallout]

I don't actually think Keane was wrong in playing down Cahills comments.

Arsenal weren't that good, and they needed a penalty, a penalty that was won when they weren't in a threatening position either.

Cahill also talks about an identity in how they want to play demonstrated by them wanting to, and sticking with, playing out from the back.

Guess what?

Ole has United playing out from the back all the time too. WHEN HE SHOULDNT.

An 'identity' isn't much use if it isn't working. Arsenal have lost 3 games like Roy says, so something isn't working, perhaps that has something to do with playing out from the back(for example), like it does with United.

Why do Liverpool have an identity? Because it's working. If it wasn't working, the fans wouldn't care about an 'identity'.

 

[A-man]

He was our captain for part of our most successful period ever in a team that dominated games and showed for more bollocks than this team ever will. It might be on trend or whatever but I think Roy Keane criticising this team has more right than most others considering how shit and underwhelming they are and how successful his team was.

I obviously know who Keane is. But I’m not following him on social media or all gossip about who he likes and dislikes and who he should like etc.

I can’t say if he is right or wrong in his critique, except what he said after the last match. And to me that was not a very bright analysis.

Also. How good a player was on the pitch some years ago doesn’t always translate to being good at analysing the game. And I don’t mean Keane in particular, but old players= now so called experts in general.

 

[Sandikan]

Having Keane on our games is pointless.
We all know his character, we all know how good our teams were back then.
We all know how poor this one is.

What's the point in constantly thrashing out how bad we are via the Keane channel?

What does it do except aggravate everyone?

 

[el3mel]

Having Keane on our games is pointless.
We all know his character, we all know how good our teams were back then.
We all know how poor this one is.

What's the point in constantly thrashing out how bad we are via the Keane channel?

What does it do except aggravate everyone?

Brings views ? It's always fun for many to watch Keane angry and slaughtering everyone. Many would turn on to listen to him doing that, so more viewers, more money.

 

[Oggmonster]

I obviously know who Keane is. But I’m not following him on social media or all gossip about who he likes and dislikes and who he should like etc.

I can’t say if he is right or wrong in his critique, except what he said after the last match. And to me that was not a very bright analysis.

Also. How good a player was on the pitch some years ago doesn’t always translate to being good at analysing the game. And I don’t mean Keane in particular, but old players= now so called experts in general.

I didn't say you don't know who Keane is? Bit of an odd statement. He definitely doesn't have social media either, he's vocal about this stuff on Sky Sports and has been for years. If you don't know his comments then fair enough but surely then you should be open to the fact if someone explains he's criticised this team for years and not be kind of passive agressive about the fact I was just explaining that? My whole point was Keane's comments about our team have been going on way before Ole was our manager so it's not just cos they're mates or whatever, he clearly does have an issue with this team and the points he makes are pretty valid.

Each to their own on his analysis that's opinions, I personally enjoy it. Keane isn't on the panel to analyse tactics etc, if you want that then your best place is Monday Night Football. Keane has never been anything different to what he was yesteray and that's pretty upfront about players/teams and what he thinks of them. If that analysis isn't for you then fair enough but I'd question why watch Roy Keane clips cos he's been pretty much the same for the 3 or 4 years he's been on Sky.

I agree re the last point, my point stands though...if Keane is praising ex team mates of his or praising himself (which he rarely does, he often downplays his ability) then surely it's fair enough to do so? They were a ridiculously successful team and it must be hugely frustrating for them to look at some of the players we have now and how much they consistently underperform and do look like they don't care.

Having Keane on our games is pointless.
We all know his character, we all know how good our teams were back then.
We all know how poor this one is.

What's the point in constantly thrashing out how bad we are via the Keane channel?

What does it do except aggravate everyone?

It's not that pointless. I enjoy listening to it and so do plenty of others do, his videos are some of the most watched on Sky sports youtube channel. Again if people don't like it just turn it off surely it's not hard? He wasn't a secret guest who appeared out of nowhere he was on the show all day.

 

[awop]

I don't actually think Keane was wrong in playing down Cahills comments.

Arsenal weren't that good, and they needed a penalty, a penalty that was won when they weren't in a threatening position either.

Cahill also talks about an identity in how they want to play demonstrated by them wanting to, and sticking with, playing out from the back.

Guess what?

Ole has United playing out from the back all the time too. WHEN HE SHOULDNT.

An 'identity' isn't much use if it isn't working. Arsenal have lost 3 games like Roy says, so something isn't working, perhaps that has something to do with playing out from the back(for example), like it does with United.

Why do Liverpool have an identity? Because it's working. If it wasn't working, the fans wouldn't care about an 'identity'.

We lost to City, Liverpool and to Leicester having a perfectly valid goal disallowed + Lacazette missing a sitter from 2 yards. That's not proof that anything isn't working.
What Cahill is saying is that Arsenal know more about why they lost than United when they got destroyed by Spurs.

We could have played the same game with no penalty and lose 1-0 while having Willian hit the crossbar and Auba missing his goal from Bellerin's cross and still find some positives out of the game. United would have the 3 points but the same exact problems that might plague your season. Your midfield is a work in progress when it should be ready to go when you read the names available. Either those players absolutely cannot play together or they're badly coached. You're not going to beat everyone 5-0 with a Rashford hat-trick...

 

[Oranges038]

Keane is right.

If you can't motivate yourself to play at this level for every game and give 100% then your in the wrong job. It's not up to the manager to get inside the players head and get them going before a game. You have to have the desire to play and the will to win.

If you look at him and this is not just yesterday or on Utd games, he is genuinely disgusted at some players in how they perform.

On the pitch. You look at these guys, it looks they are almost afraid to upset each other by having a go. They just accept poor play and mistakes, drop their heads and turn away.

Bruno is the only one I've seen having a proper go at Lindelof a while back. That needs to happen more often.

 

[pascell]

Our lot have no grit or aggression, we lost near enough every 50/50 vs Chelsea and the same yesterday, they don't fight for it.

No one wants to give out a bollocking if a simple pass is misplaced. We have no leader, no organiser at the back, no intelligence if something isn't working on the pitch then someone stands up and tries to put it right.

 

[bsCallout]

We lost to City, Liverpool and to Leicester having a perfectly valid goal disallowed + Lacazette missing a sitter from 2 yards. That's not proof that anything isn't working.
What Cahill is saying is that Arsenal know more about why they lost than United when they got destroyed by Spurs.

We could have played the same game with no penalty and lose 1-0 while having Willian hit the crossbar and Auba missing his goal from Bellerin's cross and still find some positives out of the game. United would have the 3 points but the same exact problems that might plague your season. Your midfield is a work in progress when it should be ready to go when you read the names available. Either those players absolutely cannot play together or they're badly coached. You're not going to beat everyone 5-0 with a Rashford hat-trick...

It doesn't matter who you lost to. The point is to win. You didn't manage to. Both Lpool and City have been relatively out of form. Lpool lost 7-2 to Villa a week later.

Willians pot shot and a cross that Auba was nowhere near isn't really showing much for a game where United were VERY bad.

You're setting up defensively to support your weak defence and hoping Auba will bail you out.

There is no evidence that Arteta has learned from those losses. Scraping a win against an awful United doesn't demonstrate you've learned anything.

Ole will be very well aware of what United aren't doing well. Whether he is capable of rectifying those issues is a different matter, a matter that applies to Arteta too. Neither manager is unaware of their weaknesses. Arteta has to prove he can do something better with the Arsenal squad just like Ole has to with United.

The idea that Ole doesn't know but Arteta does is nonsense.

Ole wouldn't have wanted his players to play with such a lack of intensity. He wouldn't have wanted us to sit off so much, or for Pogba to make a silly tackle or for every player to play at a snails pace.

 

[Green_Red]

I’m very much pro-Ole but he got it wrong yesterday. That ridiculous diamond idea is the kind of stuff kids do on Champ Manager to get all their favourite players into the team, I can’t think of one side who have had any success playing a diamond

Didn't AC Milan have a lot of success with it under Ancelloti back in the 00s?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/5wfootball.com/2019/04/22/diamonds-are-a-managers-best-friend/amp/

 

[Sandikan]

We lost to City, Liverpool and to Leicester having a perfectly valid goal disallowed + Lacazette missing a sitter from 2 yards. That's not proof that anything isn't working.
What Cahill is saying is that Arsenal know more about why they lost than United when they got destroyed by Spurs.

We could have played the same game with no penalty and lose 1-0 while having Willian hit the crossbar and Auba missing his goal from Bellerin's cross and still find some positives out of the game. United would have the 3 points but the same exact problems that might plague your season. Your midfield is a work in progress when it should be ready to go when you read the names available. Either those players absolutely cannot play together or they're badly coached. You're not going to beat everyone 5-0 with a Rashford hat-trick...

We had 10men for 65mins v Tottenham, and came in off no pre-season. Very similar to being turned over by Palace, who we made look like Olympic athletes.
We could write those off as freaks due to the weird setting of the season.

Losing to you lot didn't have either excuse.

 

[Gio]

I’m very much pro-Ole but he got it wrong yesterday. That ridiculous diamond idea is the kind of stuff kids do on Champ Manager to get all their favourite players into the team, I can’t think of one side who have had any success playing a diamond

Milan won 2 Champions Leagues playing variations of 4321 / 4312 / 41212. France won the 1998 World Cup with a 4312/4321 hybrid, while Lippi’s Juve played a 4312 after signing Zidane, winning Serie A and reaching CL finals.