Rooney vs. Van Gaal

[Treble]

That's just 9 goals, out of 27 he scored, a bit more than half (14) were scored in a second half of the season.

I wrote that he was scoring goals in the second half of the season as well, including a brace against Liverpool. The quality of his general play dropped though, he was very effective but not brilliant. In the previous season, he scored less goals in the second half but was rightly seen as performing at world class level - both in the league and in the CL.

I'll leave it at that. I wish him to prove his doubters wrong and flourish under LVG.

 

[NinjaZombie]

That's actually common, i don't where you work and what sort of job you do, but any skilled professional thinks about resigning, quitting if he feels underappreciated or if he thinks his job skills are not used properly.
Many fans are don't extrapolate real-life experience on football, and maybe there is a reason for that, i mean football is a hobby, so it's supposed to be as far away as possible from anything work-related, even in terms of logic. Yet, it's important to remember, that for players football is not a hobby, it's a work, career.

I appreciate your points, and can see why Rooney might want to play as striker. I quit my Sunday football team for another because I couldn't get games up front, funny enough. I think I shared his frustrations there.

But I think of the situation in terms of how it benefits Manchester United. We have Van Persie, who I personally feel is better than Rooney up front (debatable). Rooney has also always played as a withdrawn sort of striker since his younger days.

Taking into account his fitness issues, his low bottom level performances, his age, his ready replacements in Mata and Kagawa, I personally believe we should be selling him if he wants to leave because he wants to play striker and not centre midfield.

As Paul Scholes (in fact, Scholes hit the nail on the head with his recent blog post for paddypower) said, he's probably peaked and as someone who has watched players like Beckham and Van Nisterooy let go of for the the benefit of the team, it's not crazy that some fans, like me, think he should be sold, especially after considering all the factors I've mentioned above.

 

[Lane]

First off, assists are not the same as goals. If one goes by the assists stats from last season, Gerrard was the most creative player in the league, more creative than Silva and Suarez (according to http://www.myfootballfacts.com/Premier_League_Combined_2013-14.html). And if one judges the creativity of attacking palyers mainly by the number of their assists, then Iniesta is an average player creativity wise, much worse than Gerrard. Gerrard and Rooney got many assists because they take well set pieces. Other than that they are not particularly creative. To say that Rooney is a world class creator of goals would be laughable. Rickie fecking Lambert assisted as many goals as Rooney.

Second, Rooney has scored 35 goals over the last two seasons - as many as Toure and Vidal. That's not a world class return. Costa for instance has scored 56 and outscored Rooney in both seasons, not just the last one. There are many attacking players who have been better than Rooney over the last 2 seasons: Ronaldo, Messi, Zlatan, Costa, Falcao, Müller, Cavani, Lewandowski, Suarez, Aguero, Robben, Ribery, Neymar, Bale, Benzema, Van Persie. Most of those players comfortably outscored Rooney or were much more creative than him. One could make the case about other players who don't have the reputation of being world class, e.g. Sturridge or even Dzeko (41 goals from just 54 starts for City). I haven't mentioned a player from Seria A, say from Juve, because I don't watch it but there could be other forwards who have done at least as well as Rooney over the last 2 seasons, for instance Hazard - another player who would be a much more attractive signing than Rooney, or Mata. Or Higuain. Don't know. But to think that Rooney was one of the best 10 attacking players over the last 2 seasons would be pure fanboism.

The fanboys argument may come sometimes from fans of other players but also from fans who don't bye the hype.

Edit: Just checked Higuains stats: he contributed 62 goals over the last two seasons (goals + assists).

Benzema: 78 goals! (44 goals and 34 assists)

Mandzukic: 48 (only goals)

Lewandowski: 64 (only goals)

So, some details.
Your post is extremely inconsistent and lacks logic. You start of saying that assists should not(edited) be considered same as goals, yet after that you name Robben and Rivery who hardy outscored Rooney. And actually their scoring return is average at best. It's very odd and sort of defeats any purpose. It either one, or another. As for set piece i think it's very stupid not to count them or say they are in any way irrelevant. A lot of goals are score from set pieces, without players with great delivery skills like Gerrard and Rooney these goals would just not happen. It' extremely important to have players, that can take set pieces at top level. And both finalist of CL prove my point to a T. With all the attacking threat of Real it was their set pieces that made the key difference. With Munich and in the final.

Rooney did not score as many goals over the last two seasons as a WC striker should, that is true enough, but it's also true, that he has not played in his favorite position up front. So to compare his scoring stats with a player that played CF-only is wrong.
This season Costa has scored 36 goals in 49 games (i cut two games where he played 20 min with injury), when Rooney played a CF, in 11-12, he scored 34 in 43 which is a better return. So clearly Rooney if used properly has the ability to outperform Costa.
Neymar inclusion is just stupid, he has only one season in Europe, he has big potential, but this year he has not delivered, it's a good enough first season, but that's it. His 15 goals in 41 matches is hardly impressive.
With some players you clearly suffer an extreme case of tunnel vision. You completely wipe out their last season in order to focus on more successive current one. City have been pretty great this year, they scored a lot goals and so on. But as good as they were this year, last season they were nothing special. And that includes Aguero, who managed just 17 goals in 40 games last season, Rooney had 16 in 37. So considering a huge gap in assists 4 for Aguero and 13 for Rooney, you can easily say that Rooney was much better than Aguero last year, even though it has not been a particularly good season for him as well. So if you consider both season their number in terms of assists and goals are pretty much the same, that 62 in 76(15 subs) matches for Aguero and
65 in 77(9 subs). So clearly Rooney has not been as bad as you try to make out.
That brings me to a next point, you've said that it's nothing special to outperform the likes of Welbeck. That's true, but that also is part of Rooney's problem actually. He is not playing with a players who is up to the level. It's a two way street, so Rooney should take some responsibility about our bad attacking shape, but not all. It's tougher to perform, when your partners are not that good. Obviously if MU had a solid CM, Rooney would not be shifted to a deeper role as much and could concentrate of attack. Robben and Ribery are two examples of a players that can be hardly called exceptional in terms of their goal, assist return, but they are vital part of a very strong team. Rooney was in that position himself, in 07-08 our main star was Ronaldo, but Rooney was a main part of that winning team and contributed to the tune of what Ribery produces for Munich. And actually i don't if you watched Munich games this term, but Ribery was pretty much average most of the season.
There are also some players that are considerably younger and emerging like Bale, Hazard, but remains to bee seen whether they can produce such a consistent performances as Rooney had. For example this year i've read that Rooney became the first and only premiership player that managed to produce double figures in both goals and assists in five premiership season. Obviously someone like Suarez just did not have enough "time", but the thing is there were stars in early 2000s in the Premier League, and they could not do it. So it's still a very impressive achievement.

I don't think Rooney is as great as Ronaldo or Messi, but i do believe he is a very good player who contributed heavily to our success, i also think that this season showed that he is not washed out or anything and still a very much potent force in the attack. I would rather keep him (provided that manager wants him and he is playing in a suitable role) than have the likes of Falcao, Benzema, Mandzukic, Higuain, Dzeko, Costa etc.
And as for how creative Rooney is, well free kick or not, i think it's very stupid not give Rooney a credit for his creativity, in the last 10 years he has assisted a lot goals and create a lot chances.

 

[Lane]

I appreciate your points, and can see why Rooney might want to play as striker. I quit my Sunday football team for another because I couldn't get games up front, funny enough. I think I shared his frustrations there.

But I think of the situation in terms of how it benefits Manchester United. We have Van Persie, who I personally feel is better than Rooney up front (debatable). Rooney has also always played as a withdrawn sort of striker since his younger days.

Taking into account his fitness issues, his low bottom level performances, his age, his ready replacements in Mata and Kagawa, I personally believe we should be selling him if he wants to leave because he wants to play striker and not centre midfield.

As Paul Scholes (in fact, Scholes hit the nail on the head with his recent blog post for paddypower) said, he's probably peaked and as someone who has watched players like Beckham and Van Nisterooy let go of for the the benefit of the team, it's not crazy that some fans, like me, think he should be sold, especially after considering all the factors I've mentioned above.

It remains to be seen whether Scholes is right or not. Its not like all he talks is a gospel, i'd say his current season is definite improvement on the last one, so i don't see why Rooney can't further improve the next term, especially if the system is better. Even this year he was used out of position a lot. Nevertheless I am open to the idea of Rooney leaving in LVG don't want him. And i think we can replace him and our attack can be good without him as well, for example if we buy Reus or Griezmann (well if he will adapt and do well). But i think Rooney can contribute a lot. And i am not that sure RVP is better option up front given his form this year and his injury record. And one thing i am positive on, is that if Rooney goes, we need a very strong signing in the attack. Maybe not the same type of layer, as i 've said that is for manager to decide, but we need someone to provide goals.

And i am sorry but the notion of Kagawa being a Rooney's replacement is almost laughable, really. Whatever hardships have befallen him the guy is 25 and had zero goals (and a very limited number of assists) this season, even if you play on the left side, you should score. And his first season under Fergie was not exactly good either. So first and foremost Kagawa needs to prove he can play in Premier League and for United. Maybe he can do that, but he surely has not shown it yet.

 

[Treble]

So, some details.
Your post is extremely inconsistent and lacks logic. You start of saying that assists should be considered same as goals, yet after that you name Robben and Rivery who hardy outscored Rooney. And actually their scoring return is average at best. It's very odd and sort of defeats any purpose. It either one, or another. As for set piece i think it's very stupid not to count them or say they are in any way irrelevant. A lot of goals are score from set pieces, without players with great delivery skills like Gerrard and Rooney these goals would just not happen. It' extremely important to have players, that can take set pieces at top level. And both finalist of CL prove my point to a T. With all the attacking threat of Real it was their set pieces that made the key difference. With Munich and in the final.

Rooney did not score as many goals over the last two seasons as a WC striker should, that is true enough, but it's also true, that he has not played in his favorite position up front. So to compare his scoring stats with a player that played CF-only is wrong.
This season Costa has scored 36 goals in 49 games (i cut two games where he played 20 min with injury), when Rooney played a CF, in 11-12, he scored 34 in 43 which is a better return. So clearly Rooney if used properly has the ability to outperform Costa.
Neymar inclusion is just stupid, he has only one season in Europe, he has big potential, but this year he has not delivered, it's a good enough first season, but that's it. His 15 goals in 41 matches is hardly impressive.
With some players you clearly suffer an extreme case of tunnel vision. You completely wipe out their last season in order to focus on more successive current one. City have been pretty great this year, they scored a lot goals and so on. But as good as they were this year, last season they were nothing special. And that includes Aguero, who managed just 17 goals in 40 games last season, Rooney had 16 in 37. So considering a huge gap in assists 4 for Aguero and 13 for Rooney, you can easily say that Rooney was much better than Aguero last year, even though it has not been a particularly good season for him as well. So if you consider both season their number in terms of assists and goals are pretty much the same, that 62 in 76(15 subs) matches for Aguero and
65 in 77(9 subs). So clearly Rooney has not been as bad as you try to make out.
That brings me to a next point, you've said that it's nothing special to outperform the likes of Welbeck. That's true, but that also is part of Rooney's problem actually. He is not playing with a players who is up to the level. It's a two way street, so Rooney should take some responsibility about our bad attacking shape, but not all. It's tougher to perform, when your partners are not that good. Obviously if MU had a solid CM, Rooney would not be shifted to a deeper role as much and could concentrate of attack. Robben and Ribery are two examples of a players that can be hardly called exceptional in terms of their goal, assist return, but they are vital part of a very strong team. Rooney was in that position himself, in 07-08 our main star was Ronaldo, but Rooney was a main part of that winning team and contributed to the tune of what Ribery produces for Munich. And actually i don't if you watched Munich games this term, but Ribery was pretty much average most of the season.
There are also some players that are considerably younger and emerging like Bale, Hazard, but remains to bee seen whether they can produce such a consistent performances as Rooney had. For example this year i've read that Rooney became the first and only premiership player that managed to produce double figures in both goals and assists in five premiership season. Obviously someone like Suarez just did not have enough "time", but the thing is there were stars in early 2000s in the Premier League, and they could not do it. So it's still a very impressive achievement.

I don't think Rooney is as great as Ronaldo or Messi, but i do believe he is a very good player who contributed heavily to our success, i also think that this season showed that he is not washed out or anything and still a very much potent force in the attack. I would rather keep him (provided that manager wants him and he is playing in a suitable role) than have the likes of Falcao, Benzema, Mandzukic, Higuain, Dzeko, Costa etc.
And as for how creative Rooney is, well free kick or not, i think it's very stupid not give Rooney a credit for his creativity, in the last 10 years he has assisted a lot goals and create a lot chances.

You need to practice your reading and comprehension skills a bit more, Lane. Maybe you need to read my post once again? Already in the second sentence you ascribe to me exactly the opposite claim of the one I made. I didn't say that assists should be considered the same as goals. Further, I didn't say that goals from set pieces are not important at all. I talked about the relation between assists (from set pieces) and creativitiy which you obviously haven't grasped at all. Had you grasped the point, you wouldn't have mentioned Ribery and Robben. And Neymar as well.

That's enough for me. Don't want to lose my time debating with you. Of course, you are entitled of your opinion. Maybe you are right after all.

 

[Lane]

You need to practice your reading and comprehension skills a bit more, Lane. Maybe you need to read my post once again? Already in the second sentence you ascribe to me exactly the opposite claim of the one I made. I didn't say that assists should be considered the same as goals. Further, I didn't say that goals from set pieces are not important at all. I talked about the relation between assists (from set pieces) and creativitiy which you obviously haven't grasped at all. Had you grasped the point, you wouldn't have mentioned Ribery and Robben. And Neymar as well.

That's enough for me. Don't want to lose my time debating with you. Of course, you are entitled of your opinion. Maybe you are right after all.

First of all, i missed "not" in a "You start of saying that assists should not(edited) be considered same as goals". While being an unfortunate mistake, i think if you read the post and our "comprehension skills" are any good, you could have sorted that out. I mean it's obvious for anybody.

I understood what you've said. You said that assists from set pieces should be separated from open play assists. And by that you clearly indicate that you consider them somewhat less important in assessing player's skills. I think it nonsensical. But that is actually beside the point as you failed to provide any sort of prove, corroboration for this theory. Never mind, you failed to point out exactly how many assists Rooney had from open play and how many assists others have. I am sure, for example, that even if you consider only open play assists, Rooney over the last 4-5 years would be comfortably in the best creators bracket. As i remember only maybe about 5 of his 17 assists were from set pieces. And not many players you named made more open play assists.

 

[Treble]

First of all, i missed "not" in a "You start of saying that assists should not(edited) be considered same as goals". While being an unfortunate mistake, i think if you read the post and our "comprehension skills" are any good, you could have sorted that out. I mean it's obvious for anybody.

I understood what you've said. You said that assists from set pieces should be separated from open play assists. And by that you clearly indicate that you consider them somewhat less important in assessing player's skills. I think it nonsensical. But that is actually beside the point as you failed to provide any sort of prove, corroboration for this theory. Never mind, you failed to point out exactly how many assists Rooney had from open play and how many assists others have. I am sure, for example, that even if you consider only open play assists, Rooney over the last 4-5 years would be comfortably in the best creators bracket. As i remember only maybe about 5 of his 17 assists were from set pieces. And not many players you named made more open play assists.

Again, you didn't understand well what I said. I mentioned Iniesta on purpose. The correlation between assists and creativity isn't as straightforward as you and other Rooney fans seem to think. It's obvious that Ribery and Robben are on a different level to Rooney creativity wise, no matter whether they have more or less assists. As is perfectly obvious that Iniesta and Silva are far more creative than Rooney and Gerrard. Those who rely on stats like goals plus assists to prove how good Rooney is tend to neglect the difference between goals and assists and to relate assists and creativity too strongly. I'm reluctant to accept their view. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Gannicus]

My view on Rooney hasn't changed much in recent years. He is fixated far more on fame and fortune than he is on fitness and improving his technical skills.

If somehow we could do a mind meld on Rooney with Messi's humility and Ronaldo's commie my to his craft he truly would have been the white Pele.

Oh well.

 

[NinjaZombie]

It remains to be seen whether Scholes is right or not. Its not like all he talks is a gospel, i'd say his current season is definite improvement on the last one, so i don't see why Rooney can't further improve the next term, especially if the system is better. Even this year he was used out of position a lot. Nevertheless I am open to the idea of Rooney leaving in LVG don't want him. And i think we can replace him and our attack can be good without him as well, for example if we buy Reus or Griezmann (well if he will adapt and do well). But i think Rooney can contribute a lot. And i am not that sure RVP is better option up front given his form this year and his injury record. And one thing i am positive on, is that if Rooney goes, we need a very strong signing in the attack. Maybe not the same type of layer, as i 've said that is for manager to decide, but we need someone to provide goals.

And i am sorry but the notion of Kagawa being a Rooney's replacement is almost laughable, really. Whatever hardships have befallen him the guy is 25 and had zero goals (and a very limited number of assists) this season, even if you play on the left side, you should score. And his first season under Fergie was not exactly good either. So first and foremost Kagawa needs to prove he can play in Premier League and for United. Maybe he can do that, but he surely has not shown it yet.

You're saying things like "Rooney can improve next season if the system is right " etc while saying Kagawa and Van Persie might fall short based on different factors. In short, your what ifs for Rooney have a positive outlook while your what ifs on the other two are pessimistic.

Here's what I do know. Rvp is a very good striker. Mata was Chelsea's player of the season for a couple of years. Both of them play in positions Rooney could play in and arguably do it better.

We might or might not need another player to make up for his goals if Rooney leaves. An existing player we have could make up for it. (Januzaj? Welbeck? Or even *gasp* Kagawa!)

I think Van Gaal will keep Rooney on though. He is a good player after all. But I am sure he won't be as afraid of dropping him when his form drops as bloody Moyes was.

 

[Lane]

You're saying things like "Rooney can improve next season if the system is right " etc while saying Kagawa and Van Persie might fall short based on different factors. In short, your what ifs for Rooney have a positive outlook while your what ifs on the other two are pessimistic.

Here's what I do know. Rvp is a very good striker. Mata was Chelsea's player of the season for a couple of years. Both of them play in positions Rooney could play in and arguably do it better.

We might or might not need another player to make up for his goals if Rooney leaves. An existing player we have could make up for it. (Januzaj? Welbeck? Or even *gasp* Kagawa!)

I think Van Gaal will keep Rooney on though. He is a good player after all. But I am sure he won't be as afraid of dropping him when his form drops as bloody Moyes was.

No. With RVP it's a genuine concern about his injury record. It has not been good for years, and he is over 30. And i did not said Rooney is a better option as a CF. I've said i am not sure RVP is, given his regular problems. I think all-in-all these option are pretty evenly balanced actually, i do believe it's a genuine 50-50.
As for Kagawa, Rooney has proven he can succeed here. His play was not as good as in 11/12 granted, but still he did pretty good and contributed a lot. And he has "positive dynamic" so to speak. Kagawa has not even shown he can cut it in Premier League. For example, i don't dispute that Mata could be Rooney replacement. Because Mata showed he could play on in PL and is a proven top performer. But Kagawa...

 

[Lane]

Again, you didn't understand well what I said. I mentioned Iniesta on purpose. The correlation between assists and creativity isn't as straightforward as you and other Rooney fans seem to think. It's obvious that Ribery and Robben are on a different level to Rooney creativity wise, no matter whether they have more or less assists. As is perfectly obvious that Iniesta and Silva are far more creative than Rooney and Gerrard. Those who rely on stats like goals plus assists to prove how good Rooney is tend to neglect the difference between goals and assists and to relate assists and creativity too strongly. I'm reluctant to accept their view. I'll leave it at that.

Then define this "creativity" with the exact criteria.
Because i think correlation between creativity and assists is very strong, much stronger that someone's observations. The thing is, many people like some sort of football players, way of playing whatever and they discard anything else even if it produce the same results. So for me stats is one way of confirming and objectifying the issue. Because i don't believe in last 10 years Ribery was more creative than Rooney.
In terms of creativity there are more refined stats like clear-cut chances created or simple chance creation, but i think though they show "creativity" better, the difference is pretty minimal. Creative players tend to have much more assists than those who are not.

I also think that the actual results are far more important than so-called "creativity" you mention. I still don't see the relevance and point of excluding or in any way neglecting set-pieces assists. In football goals that are scored from set-pieces have absolutely the same importance and value as goals scored from open play, so it actually stands to reason that assists from dead ball situation would be treated the same as the ones from open play in any sort of skill assessing.

And once again, i think you simply mixed up your facts. The majority of Rooney's assists comes from open play, not set-pieces, so this point is sort of void anyway. In premier league Rooney has only 3 assists from set-pieces (from total 10), in CL only one (from 5), the Vidic one, as second goal against Bayer L away was credited as an OG.

 

[Treble]

Then define this "creativity" with the exact criteria.
Because i think correlation between creativity and assists is very strong, much stronger that someone's observations. The thing is, many people like some sort of football players, way of playing whatever and they discard anything else even if it produce the same results. So for me stats is one way of confirming and objectifying the issue. Because i don't believe in last 10 years Ribery was more creative than Rooney.
In terms of creativity there are more refined stats like clear-cut chances created or simple chance creation, but i think though they show "creativity" better, the difference is pretty minimal. Creative players tend to have much more assists than those who are not.

I also think that the actual results are far more important than so-called "creativity" you mention. I still don't see the relevance and point of excluding or in any way neglecting set-pieces assists. In football goals that are scored from set-pieces have absolutely the same importance and value as goals scored from open play, so it actually stands to reason that assists from dead ball situation would be treated the same as the ones from open play in any sort of skill assessing.

And once again, i think you simply mixed up your facts. The majority of Rooney's assists comes from open play, not set-pieces, so this point is sort of void anyway. In premier league Rooney has only 3 assists from set-pieces (from total 10), in CL only one (from 5), the Vidic one, as second goal against Bayer L away was credited as an OG.

Gerrard 13 assists
Rickie Lambert 10 assists
David Silva 9 assists
Iniesta 7 assists

(season 13/14, espn sources)

You think Gerrard was twice as creative as Iniesta? And that Rickie Lambert was more creative than David Silva? Good luck then.

The case with Iniesta should have given you a clue that there is much more to creativity than passing the ball before the goal: e.g. opening up spaces with clever passes, dribbling past players, retaining the ball in tight situations (in and around the penalty box) with a great first touch and close control, etc. Iniesta excels in all these aspects of creativity and is at least two levels above Rickie Lambert in terms of creativity, as is David Silva. In contrast to Iniesta, Silva, Ribery, Robben, Neymar, etc. Rooney isn't great at short passing, retaining the ball in tight spaces, dribbling past players and has an erratic first touch. It's a myth that he is a very creative player. And Gerrard isn't particularly creative either, at least in comparison with Iniesta and Silva.

 

[The Mitcher]

I think United fans are obsessed with being negative with Rooney, its not everyone, but jesus is it a huge number of people. I can't think of anyone in other teams that gets this. Just beause LVG does not take shit from players doesn't mean he is going to fall out with Rooney. Vice versa, and neither does that mean we should make assumptions on two people who I assume have never met before, so shut up, and wait and see.

 

[Lane]

Gerrard 13 assists
Rickie Lambert 10 assists
David Silva 9 assists
Iniesta 7 assists

(season 13/14, espn sources)

You think Gerrard was twice as creative as Iniesta? And that Rickie Lambert was more creative than David Silva? Good luck then.

I don't know if you actually watched any of Barcelona's games this year. But Iniesta was rather bad, he clearly struggled to adapt to Martino's style and looked out of place 80% of the time. So it's not a case of weak correlation, rather a bad season. Last year Iniesta had 18 assists and Lambert had only 5.
And again, some comparison are rather useless. Gerrard for example played in a deep holding role this year. So how is he suppose to assist a goal? Via long through pass? That's extremely hard and he probably have maybe like 1 or 2 assists that way. So it stands to reason that most of his assists are from his world class set-piece delivery. His job in open play is not to create goal, but rather opportunities. And he has done that pretty good. It's a bit the same for Iniesta as he is not always played in a advanced role like has done in 12-13.

Gerrard 13 assists
The case with Iniesta should have given you a clue that there is much more to creativity than passing the ball before the goal: e.g. opening up spaces with clever passes, dribbling past players, retaining the ball in tight situations (in and around the penalty box) with a great first touch and close control, etc. Iniesta excels in all these aspects of creativity and is at least two levels above Rickie Lambert in terms of creativity, as is David Silva. In contrast to Iniesta, Silva, Ribery, Robben, Neymar, etc. Rooney isn't great at short passing, retaining the ball in tight spaces, dribbling past players and has an erratic first touch. It's a myth that he is a very creative player. And Gerrard isn't particularly creative either, at least in comparison with Iniesta and Silva.

As i've said "many people like some sort of football players, way of playing whatever and they discard anything else even if it produce the same results".
I think it's very ignorant actually to say that creative can be only in the mold of Silva, Iniesta, with close control, dribbling, clever passes etc. Creative player does not need to be like that. Creative player needs to create goals, one way or another, and there are many ways to do that. The case in question is Mueller.
He is also very average at best in all these "aspects of creativity" you mentioned and two-three level below Iniesta, Silva and the likes. For example Goetze or Thiago even if we turn to Munich team for comparisons. He hardly dribbles, in comparison with Robben, Goetze. He has a very low number of passes per game and hi accuracy is below 80%. Yet he is one of Munich best creators. It's just his style is different, more "german". His is a "straight-forward" player, most of his assists are simple crosses, cut backs etc. His goals are sort of typical "fox in the box" goals, he has a lot of flick-ons, a lot headed goals, and headed assists, something players like Silva just can't do on WC level. But you need a players like Mueller, because it's often not only about a great through pass, releasing the player, it's also about a players' run, his positioning, and Mueller excels in that.
Rooney is also somewhat closer to this kind of player, he always was. Of course he would never have a first touch and close control like David Silva. But what he does have is a great vision and middle-range passing and crossing. That allowed him to produce the sort of assists he did against Bayer L (away), when Valencia scored or that famous pass to RVP against Villa. He can also release player with clever passing, he has done it many times this season. He can create goals for himself with outside of the area shooting, he is rather good in that. Again, something that Iniesta clearly lacks.
So it's not "myth" he is a very creative player, that is actually a fact. He just creates goals in a different fashion is all. And it could be well used for creating a good attacking play, as was demonstrated by our teams in the past with Rooney a vital part of them.

 

[Plugsy]

I think United fans are obsessed with being negative with Rooney, its not everyone, but jesus is it a huge number of people. I can't think of anyone in other teams that gets this. Just beause LVG does not take shit from players doesn't mean he is going to fall out with Rooney. Vice versa, and neither does that mean we should make assumptions on two people who I assume have never met before, so shut up, and wait and see.

I think it's just here to be honest. None of my mates share anywhere near close to this level of animosity towards Rooney and to be honest consensus on a couple of players here seems complete out of kilter with my experience too.

 

[Cassidy]

I don't know if you actually watched any of Barcelona's games this year. But Iniesta was rather bad, he clearly struggled to adapt to Martino's style and looked out of place 80% of the time. So it's not a case of weak correlation, rather a bad season. Last year Iniesta had 18 assists and Lambert had only 5.
And again, some comparison are rather useless. Gerrard for example played in a deep holding role this year. So how is he suppose to assist a goal? Via long through pass? That's extremely hard and he probably have maybe like 1 or 2 assists that way. So it stands to reason that most of his assists are from his world class set-piece delivery. His job in open play is not to create goal, but rather opportunities. And he has done that pretty good. It's a bit the same for Iniesta as he is not always played in a advanced role like has done in 12-13.
As i've said "many people like some sort of football players, way of playing whatever and they discard anything else even if it produce the same results".
I think it's very ignorant actually to say that creative can be only in the mold of Silva, Iniesta, with close control, dribbling, clever passes etc. Creative player does not need to be like that. Creative player needs to create goals, one way or another, and there are many ways to do that. The case in question is Mueller.
He is also very average at best in all these "aspects of creativity" you mentioned and two-three level below Iniesta, Silva and the likes. For example Goetze or Thiago even if we turn to Munich team for comparisons. He hardly dribbles, in comparison with Robben, Goetze. He has a very low number of passes per game and hi accuracy is below 80%. Yet he is one of Munich best creators. It's just his style is different, more "german". His is a "straight-forward" player, most of his assists are simple crosses, cut backs etc. His goals are sort of typical "fox in the box" goals, he has a lot of flick-ons, a lot headed goals, and headed assists, something players like Silva just can't do on WC level. But you need a players like Mueller, because it's often not only about a great through pass, releasing the player, it's also about a players' run, his positioning, and Mueller excels in that.
Rooney is also somewhat closer to this kind of player, he always was. Of course he would never have a first touch and close control like David Silva. But what he does have is a great vision and middle-range passing and crossing. That allowed him to produce the sort of assists he did against Bayer L (away), when Valencia scored or that famous pass to RVP against Villa. He can also release player with clever passing, he has done it many times this season. He can create goals for himself with outside of the area shooting, he is rather good in that. Again, something that Iniesta clearly lacks.
So it's not "myth" he is a very creative player, that is actually a fact. He just creates goals in a different fashion is all. And it could be well used for creating a good attacking play, as was demonstrated by our teams in the past with Rooney a vital part of them.

You make some good points, however you need to move away from looking at creativity in terms of assists. Creating goals doesn't necessarily mean you get an assist (that is just the person who passed the ball to the goalscorer, many times there is nothing creative in the pass at all). Scholes didn't get many assists, however he used to be the start of a high percentage of the goals we scored.

Things like headed flickons, cutbacks, crosses etc to me do not really make a player creative, those things are standard. Just my opinion though I guess.

 

[Lane]

You make some good points, however you need to move away from looking at creativity in terms of assists. Creating goals doesn't necessarily mean you get an assist (that is just the person who passed the ball to the goalscorer, many times there is nothing creative in the pass at all). Scholes didn't get many assists, however he used to be the start of a high percentage of the goals we scored.

Well i believe i actually covered this point when talking about the Gerrard's role in the first part of the message. Clearly assists can not be the only indicator of creativity and also they can not be indicator of all "types" of creativity. I think assists are a good indicator for players in advanced/attacking positions. Rooney being certainly one of them, so that's why i used them. Obviously if we talk about Xavi, "modern" Gerrard, Scholes, Pirlo or Modric, then it's a different set of indicators, and i agree it's hard for them to assist and create a chance, because their job is to create o goo opening for a player like Rooney or Mueller to create that chance. And i've mentioned all that, because Iniesta not always played in advanced role in the past.
But that just why you need to be aware about player's position and role in order to make a appropriate comparison. Obviously comparing D Silva and Pirlo is just wrong.

Things like headed flickons, cutbacks, crosses etc to me do not really make a player creative, those things are standard. Just my opinion though I guess.

Well it's not like i am talking about two-meter lay offs really. For example weren't Rooney's assists to a Valencia goal at Leverkusen or that RVP's goal against Villa a great pieces of skill?

 

[Treble]

I don't know if you actually watched any of Barcelona's games this year. But Iniesta was rather bad, he clearly struggled to adapt to Martino's style and looked out of place 80% of the time. So it's not a case of weak correlation, rather a bad season. Last year Iniesta had 18 assists and Lambert had only 5.

Iniesta wasn't bad at all last season, it is typical for him to have 7-8 assists in La Liga, the same holds for Zidane's assists stats in La Liga. Season 12/13 was an anomaly in that respect.

And again, some comparison are rather useless. Gerrard for example played in a deep holding role this year. So how is he suppose to assist a goal? Via long through pass? That's extremely hard and he probably have maybe like 1 or 2 assists that way. So it stands to reason that most of his assists are from his world class set-piece delivery. His job in open play is not to create goal, but rather opportunities. And he has done that pretty good. It's a bit the same for Iniesta as he is not always played in a advanced role like has done in 12-13.

You answer here another question, not the one I asked you in my post. You are saying it is quite natural that Gerrard's creativity is related to assists. But the question was whether there is a strong correlation between assists and creativity per se and I showed you that there is no such correlation, otherwise you should think something absurd, e.g. that Lambert was more creative than David Silva and that Gerrard was more creative than Suarez.

As i've said "many people like some sort of football players, way of playing whatever and they discard anything else even if it produce the same results".
I think it's very ignorant actually to say that creative can be only in the mold of Silva, Iniesta, with close control, dribbling, clever passes etc. Creative player does not need to be like that. Creative player needs to create goals, one way or another, and there are many ways to do that. The case in question is Mueller.
He is also very average at best in all these "aspects of creativity" you mentioned and two-three level below Iniesta, Silva and the likes. For example Goetze or Thiago even if we turn to Munich team for comparisons. He hardly dribbles, in comparison with Robben, Goetze. He has a very low number of passes per game and hi accuracy is below 80%. Yet he is one of Munich best creators. It's just his style is different, more "german". His is a "straight-forward" player, most of his assists are simple crosses, cut backs etc. His goals are sort of typical "fox in the box" goals, he has a lot of flick-ons, a lot headed goals, and headed assists, something players like Silva just can't do on WC level. But you need a players like Mueller, because it's often not only about a great through pass, releasing the player, it's also about a players' run, his positioning, and Mueller excels in that.
Rooney is also somewhat closer to this kind of player, he always was. Of course he would never have a first touch and close control like David Silva. But what he does have is a great vision and middle-range passing and crossing. That allowed him to produce the sort of assists he did against Bayer L (away), when Valencia scored or that famous pass to RVP against Villa. He can also release player with clever passing, he has done it many times this season. He can create goals for himself with outside of the area shooting, he is rather good in that. Again, something that Iniesta clearly lacks.
So it's not "myth" he is a very creative player, that is actually a fact. He just creates goals in a different fashion is all. And it could be well used for creating a good attacking play, as was demonstrated by our teams in the past with Rooney a vital part of them.

Basically, you are saying that Rickie Lambert was no less creative than Silva last season or than Zidane at Real Madrid who never got 10 assists in La Liga, Lambert just created in different ways to Silva and Zidane. Or, to change the example, you are saying that Lambert was nearly as creative as Suarez but just in different ways. Because the results were nearly the same. That's bollocks, Lane. Again. There is a huge difference between Lambert and Suarez creativity wise and it is closely related to the fact that Suarez is much better at dribbling past players, retaining the ball in tight spaces, short passing, close control, etc.

I very much doubt that even Müller fans would insist that he is as creative as Ribery, Silva, Iniesta, Suarez but just in a "more German" way. And I very much doubt that even Lamberts fans would go as far as to say that he was as creative as Silva last season but, say, in a British way. Alone Iniesta's stats and Lambert's stats from last season make mockery of the supposed strong correlation between creativity and assists. Hope you'll finally get that there is much more to creativity than directly assisting goals. I'll leave it at that.

 

[Lane]

Iniesta wasn't bad at all last season, it is typical for him to have 7-8 assists in La Liga, the same holds for Zidane's assists stats in La Liga. Season 12/13 was an anomaly in that respect.

Well, that just prove you did not actually watch Barcelona this year. He had a bad season, and his last years result was not due to a abnormality, but a positon change, as i explained in great detail.

You are saying it is quite natural that Gerrard's creativity is related to assists.

No, you misinterpreted my post again. You might want to read my answer to Cassidy just above.
It's natural for forwards, attacking players (Ribery, Silva, Mata) to have this correlation. Cause that's exactly their role. It's a different story if we talk about Gerrard, Pirlo. And it either should be called different type of creativity, or not "creativity" at all. I regard it as more of a "playmaking" skill. It does not create a chances to score, but it does create an opening for other players (exactly the Silva, Ribery ones) to create that chance.
Basically Gerrard in 13-14 is a person who assists an assist.

But the question was whether there is a strong correlation between assists and creativity per se and I showed you that there is no such correlation, otherwise you should think something absurd, e.g. that Lambert was more creative than David Silva and that Gerrard was more creative than Suarez.

Sorry, but you just showed a bad math. Silva has 9 assists in 27(1 sub) games, while Lambert has 10 in 37(6) apps. It's pretty obvious that assists number clearly shows Silva is more creative.
And as i'v said comparing Gerrard and Suarez in terms of creativity is nonsensical because of their respective positions and role on the pitch. You need to compare Suarez creativity and assists number with Silva or Aguero, or Rooney. And he was better than Rooney as stats show.

Basically, you are saying that Rickie Lambert was no less creative than Silva last season or than Zidane at Real Madrid who never got 10 assists in La Liga, Lambert just created in different ways to Silva and Zidane. Because the results were nearly the same. That's bollocks, Lane. Again.

Yes, and you can't see it, because you are very fixated on the idea that creativity can only come from a supreme technical skill. Basically you just confuse the meaning of the word "creativity", the orthodox one, with "flair". Lambert is not the flair player, but he is creative. Then again he is not as creative as his 10 assists this season, because he just had a good year, if you take his assists per game over the 3-4 seasons period, it's obvious that the likes of Silva will have better stats.

 

[NessunDorma]

Goals/assists per 90 in the league over the last 2 seasons - taken from Fantasy Premier League's numbers, which are based on Opta's. I've only included the various names that people have been throwing around in the recent debate.

Suarez

Minutes played - 5916
Goals - 53
Assists - 35
Minutes per goal/assist: 67

---

Sturridge

Minutes played - 3523
Goals - 33
Assists - 13
Minutes per goal/assist: 76

---

Aguero:

Minutes played - 3472
Goals - 29
Assists - 14
Minutes per goal/assist: 80

---

Van Persie:

Minutes played - 4703
Goals - 38
Assists - 18
Minutes per goal/assist: 83

---

Rooney:

Minutes played - 4459
Goals - 29
Assists - 22
Minutes per goal/assist: 87

---

Hazard:

Minutes played - 5516
Goals - 23
Assists - 26
Minutes per goal/assist: 112

---

Mata

Minutes played - 4782
Goals - 17
Assists - 25
Minutes per goal/assist: 113

---

Toure:

Minutes played - 5745
Goals - 26
Assists - 15
Minutes per goal/assist: 140

---

Ramsey:

Minutes played - 3857
Goals - 11
Assists - 14
Minutes per goal/assist: 154

---

So obviously Suarez has been head and shoulders above everyone else. And using this metric, Sturridge has also outperformed the likes of Aguero and Van Persie.

Rooney himself isn't that far behind Aguero and Van Persie, and using these numbers, you would expect him to get 39 goals/assists if he played 38 x 90 minutes over the course of the season. That compares to 42 for Aguero, and 41 for Van Persie.

That is to say, Rooney has been roughly as productive as both RvP and Aguero over the last 2 seasons. And yet he gets far more stick than both of them, not least from United fans.

And there is a very definite agenda against him coming from certain quarters, so that his performances are rarely if ever judged fairly. Every mistake magnified ten fold, his far more frequent positive contributions played down or ignored altogether.

 

[NessunDorma]

And over the last couple of seasons, Rooney has given us things like:

This:



This:



This:



This:



This:

 

[NessunDorma]

This:



This:



And a few sublime passes as well:

This:



This:

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Guy's a pro.

 

[markhrad]

I don't place too much stock in highlight reels. Look at Nani's.
Anyway I see some new WC poster's are out by a brazillian artist, one for each of the 32 competing countries. Rooney is on the England's poster roaring like a lion. Impressive.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to state this. Worth a look.

 

[JunesBoy]

The idea of Rooney and LvG not getting along should not be entertained... Tbh if he wants to keep his job, he better find a way to make him look good..

Rooney works very hard and he is actually the type managers would love to have in their team.. Reference to a statement Scholes made about Rooney and his running around, I think VG will try to iron that out of his game and us fans have to start getting use to him going missing in games if we ever wanna see him at his best.. It won't be the Rooney or RVP show we've got ourselves accustomed to but the Man Utd show.. Rooney is a smart fella, he will make sure he keeps doing his best for the team coz he stands to benefit the the most out of it anyway..

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The idea of Rooney and LvG not getting along should not be entertained... Tbh if he wants to keep his job, he better find a way to make him look good..

The other way round. If Rooney wants to keep his place like every other player, he has to impress Van Gaal. And for the latter to keep his job, he has to get the unit to look good, not one player.

I don't think they'll have issues. Rooney's a quality player and shouldn't find it hard fitting into whatever system LVG chooses.

 

[JunesBoy]

The other way round. If Rooney wants to keep his place like every other player, he has to impress Van Gaal. And for the latter to keep his job, he has to get the unit to look good, not one player.

I don't think they'll have issues. Rooney's a quality player and shouldn't find it hard fitting into whatever system LVG chooses.

You are right and its the way it should be BUT... If Rooney is struggling, the team has to be playing some brilliant stuff or else....
The manager is a football man and I believe the players will respect that....and we'll see them playing as a unit again.. At least thats what am hoping for...

 

[markhrad]

The idea of Rooney and LvG not getting along should not be entertained... Tbh if he wants to keep his job, he better find a way to make him look good..

Rooney works very hard and he is actually the type managers would love to have in their team.. Reference to a statement Scholes made about Rooney and his running around, I think VG will try to iron that out of his game and us fans have to start getting use to him going missing in games if we ever wanna see him at his best.. It won't be the Rooney or RVP show we've got ourselves accustomed to but the Man Utd show.. Rooney is a smart fella, he will make sure he keeps doing his best for the team coz he stands to benefit the the most out of it anyway..

I am not sure how you know he is smart. If LVG can get him to stay relatively in position and Rooney can accept not being the main focus of the team then I think I would not have a problem with him in the team. However, that is a big "IF'.

 

[Annahnomoss]

You are right and its the way it should be BUT... If Rooney is struggling, the team has to be playing some brilliant stuff or else....
The manager is a football man and I believe the players will respect that....and we'll see them playing as a unit again.. At least thats what am hoping for...

Why would that be the case? SAF dropped Rooney and we still played our zombie-style, even if it got results. If Rooney is dropped he is dropped because the team is better without him.

 

[markhrad]

Why would that be the case? SAF dropped Rooney and we still played our zombie-style, even if it got results. If Rooney is dropped he is dropped because the team is better without him.

If Rooney has a good world cup the media will put a lot of pressure on LVG if he drops him

 

[Annahnomoss]

If Rooney has a good world cup the media will put a lot of pressure on LVG if he drops him

Of course, but they will always find reasons to put pressure on the new manager. Causing drama is something they have studied and work for. LVG is as far as possible as you can come from a manager who lets media gets in to his head and makes him change his decisions and opinions.

If Rooney isn't considered suited for the tactic then he won't play.

 

[JunesBoy]

I am not sure how you know he is smart. If LVG can get him to stay relatively in position and Rooney can accept not being the main focus of the team then I think I would not have a problem with him in the team. However, that is a big "IF'.

From observation you can notice both him and his advisors have operated around his profile.. Don't think Rooney is gonna allow himself to backed into a corner, costing him some unwanted losses.. What ever the circumstances may be, he will make sure he maintain his dedication and effort..and let the media do his bidding..

 

[JunesBoy]

Why would that be the case? SAF dropped Rooney and we still played our zombie-style, even if it got results. If Rooney is dropped he is dropped because the team is better without him.

Football is not as black and white... We attract certain sponsors because of certain players and the manager also has to work around that as well..
A player like Rooney is not your average footballer as much as I hate to admit..
If he is gonna bench Rooney, it better be for a just reason or else he is a goner if results don't back up his decision...

This is not about hating or loving Rooney, its just the way football operates.. Even if he gets sold, another player will step into his shoes and give us the same headache.. Its just a matter of whether that individual is worth the hassle..

 

[NinjaZombie]

Rooney should take a back seat and sit on the bench for awhile. With any luck, a prolonged period of being benched and not being called up for England would allow him the freedom of holidaying with his family without the papparazzi following him around.

 

[MDFC Manager]

If Rooney has a good world cup the media will put a lot of pressure on LVG if he drops him

Rooney doing well the world cup be nice to see but i think that's far from being a certainty. Media being successful in putting pressure on LvG? Can't see that happening tbh. Rooney does go through patches of awful form and I think LvG will have the balls to drop him when that happens.

 

[markhrad]

From observation you can notice both him and his advisors have operated around his profile.. Don't think Rooney is gonna allow himself to backed into a corner, costing him some unwanted losses.. What ever the circumstances may be, he will make sure he maintain his dedication and effort..and let the media do his bidding..

The media is close to dropping him and moving on the next " Great Hope" if he fails in Brazil but if he plays well the hype will be so great I am not sure even LVG could survive it, if he chose to drop Rooney or not make him captain.

 

[markhrad]

Football is not as black and white... We attract certain sponsors because of certain players and the manager also has to work around that as well..
A player like Rooney is not your average footballer as much as I hate to admit..
If he is gonna bench Rooney, it better be for a just reason or else he is a goner if results don't back up his decision...

This is not about hating or loving Rooney, its just the way football operates.. Even if he gets sold, another player will step into his shoes and give us the same headache.. Its just a matter of whether that individual is worth the hassle..

Most astute. I guess it is how modern football works.

 

[markhrad]

Of course, but they will always find reasons to put pressure on the new manager. Causing drama is something they have studied and work for. LVG is as far as possible as you can come from a manager who lets media gets in to his head and makes him change his decisions and opinions.

If Rooney isn't considered suited for the tactic then he won't play.

I wish that were so but the media influences fans and if results do not go our way these fans look for scapegoats. The media provides them with one.

 

[Devil may care]

The media is close to dropping him and moving on the next " Great Hope" if he fails in Brazil but if he plays well the hype will be so great I am not sure even LVG could survive it, if he chose to drop Rooney or not make him captain.

LvG needn't worry about that in my view, England and Rooney doing anything of note at the World Cup is highly unlikely. I think LvG will initially try to convert him to a full on AM, how Rooney responds to this is anyone's guess.

 

[Keenst]

The good thing about this appointment is that the players will be judged purely on what's shown in training/pre season etc. - Van Gaal will be looking at the squad with an open mind and a different perspective.

Take Rooney for example - no matter how poorly he played under Moyes you always had the niggling feeling in the back of your mind that Moyes didn't have the wherewithal to drop him (well at least I did). Van Gaal has worked at some of the biggest clubs in the world and some of the best players over the years, hence I trust his judgement. When it came to Moyes you just felt that he might be looking at players, particularly Rooney, with a distorted view. He had no experience working with better players than Rooney and therefore couldn't see how he could be improved on; he probably thought it would be ludicrous to drop who, from his experience, was the best player he's ever managed.

​

Contrast this with Van Gaal who has managed many great players at many great clubs. He would have no qualms about dropping a player like Rooney if he felt he was not benefiting the team; but likewise I would be happy to see him start Rooney week in week out too as it would confirm to me that this is a player who does still deserve to be one of our star players.

​

The point is I trust Van Gaal and will be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.