Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

[RedRonaldo]

Very fair post with good points. The only thing I’d slightly disagree with is the idea that Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo’s careers are far above the other 3. More total games and goals yes. More total trophy wins yes. But only at club level. Luis Ronaldo is a World Cup winner, a two time Copa America winner, a World Cup golden ball and golden boot winner, and a Copa America ‘best player’ and ‘most goals scored’ achiever

I think if you went to Messi or Cristiano and asked them if they wanted to swap career trophies with Ronaldo or Zidane, they’d have to think long and hard about it. Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s just my guess

Collectively Messi and Ronaldo has both won over 30 major trophies over their career, thats at least 2-3 times more than the rest of them.

Individually they also had 5 and 6 Ballon D'ors, that's again at least 3 time more than the rest.

Not to mentioned their stats and records, which is at least 3 times better, again.

So, number wise, in terms of major trophies, individual stats and honours, which measures the players overall achievements, both Ronaldo and Messi have done at least 3 times better.

Thats huge.

You may argue the likes of L.Ronaldo/Zidane/Ronaldinho have all won a WC, the most prestigious trophy in football. But think about it, Pogba had also won a WC too didn't he? A lot of players did win it once too. Its only one-off WC, with 7 games to decide the winner, and they won it playing for probably the strongest team of the competition, I don't see it as particularly great achievement (of max 7 games) good enough to cancel out the other 20+ trophies they failed to win (over 700 games), which include multiple CL too. Otherwise do you think Pogba has a great career too, so great where Messi/Roanldo would dream to swap for? Despite winning feck all in England (for nearly 200 games), just because he had won a WC (in 7 games)?

And speaking of CL, Ronaldo won 5 CL, Messi also won 3 or 4 CL, but L.Ronaldo had won 0, whereas Zidane and Ronaldinho had only managed to win it once (they all played for the very best team in the world for years), you have to take account of all that too.

 

[Zehner]

Saying Messi’s dribbling isn’t on R9 level? Doesnt make you seem very subjective though. Messi at his best is regarded the best dribbler there ever was by most I would say.

R9 was a great dribbler, especially at open space, because of his incredible explosiveness that seemed to be endlessly. Thats why in open space R9 was perpaps better. Even though prime Messi had incredible speed himself.

But ultimately overall Messi blows him away. R9 his close control wasn’t as tight as that of a Messi, not close. Messi was/is obviously levels above him in tight spaces. R9 could occasionally dribble multiple people at his absolute best, but never as consistently as Messi in his prime. He just couldn’t. I’ve seen nobody who could. Messi was a threat to dribble the whole team at every possession every week.

I would go as far that you could make a dribbling compilation of one season of Messi (prime)and it would be more impressive than a compilation of R9’s dribbling over his whole career. Same with the passing of Messi and R9, one season of Messi’s passing is more impressive than R9 whole career. No strenght and speed makes up for that imo.

I love R9 but he's not a better dribbler than Messi. Find me 3 of Ronaldo's best ever games and I'll find you 15 from Messi where he exhibits better dribbling ability. R9 was fearless and capable of some amazing stuff but Messi was taking out 4 or 5 players regularly, even if you only compare them as teenagers.

I'd call it just being wrong, but each to their own I guess.

Messi was a far better dribbler and finisher than R9 ever was.

As for these supposedly steamrolling the "best defenders" in the game, how come all that brought him very few trophies? Let's not forget Barca won La Liga the season after he left, so try to pretend he played in some weak side that didn't stand a chance.

Defenders in the 90s being better than defenders in the 00/10s, that's a debate for another time.

Personal preference? He had a unique flair, but so does Messi and CR7, they just all shine in their own ways.

Yet the numbers don’t reflect this. If he steamrolled teams so much more than CR7, wouldn’t there be some metric of his productivity to demonstrate this? Instead, he was outscored by Bhieroff in one season at Inter.

I rate R9 very highly but I just can't see what made his peak so much better than CR7's or even better at all.

Huh? We talking about the same guy who destroyed the best standard of football ever played. Champions league.

Messi's dribbling was/is better for the exact reason he doesn't need power and pace. Dribbling is surely about how successful it is and I can't imagine R9 had anywhere near the success that Messi did. Hell there is compilations of Messi's goals where he beats multiple defenders that is 5-7 minutes long. They are just the goals.

I see my post was pretty controversial as it seems

Regarding Messi's dribbling ability vs. R9's:

Of course Messi is among the bet dribblers the game has ever seen and I can totally understand if one sees him as the best there has ever been. However, I think R9's agility and close control is fairly underrated in this discussion. The footage of him during his early career is absolutely outrageous. During his time at Barca and Inter he produced some incredible solo goals which stand their own against Messi's if you ask me, only that he did that in the span of only three years. Besides his incredible close control, acceleration and anticipation, one reason Messi's dribbling was above anyone else in his generation (Robben, Neymar, Hazard, etc.) was that he not only had this insane agility but also immense upper body strength which allowed him to dribble in the tightest of spaces and in close proximity to defenders. Occasions in which many others would have been outmuscled quite easily. R9 was even better in that aspect and if he beat a player, he was gone for good because while Messi would lose running duels against fast defenders, R9 outpaced everyone else. The things Ronaldo showed in those three years are absolutely insane even if you don't factor in that it happened in such a short time span and 2/3s of it in a very, very defensive minded league. But if you do factor that in, it's absolutely insane. The guy would just regularly take on the whole opposition team.

Regarding stats:

Well, I'm not a fan of analyzing goal stats out of context. I think it's insane that a player of Messi's playmaking quality has such an incredible goal record but it's also true that his and CR7's numbers were hugely inflated due to them playing for the far and away best teams in the league, arguably even the world, during their peaks. They were the centers of systems build to bring them into goal scoring opportunities. That wasn't the case for R9. Even when he played for Barca, the goal recors of the top teams in La Liga was at around 60% of it was today. And when he played for Inter, the best Serie A teams would regularly finish a season with less than 50 goals. You can't compare that. Drop R9 in his prime in a team like Messi's Barca or Cristiano's Madrid and I say he'll score similar amounts.

But that's fiction. We'll never know and the only thing certain is that you can't compare the stats, so we have to go with what our eyes tell us. And IMO, Ronaldo really earned his reputation as the phenomenon during those times. Incredible player.

 

[Gehrman]

I see my post was pretty controversial as it seems

Regarding Messi's dribbling ability vs. R9's:

Of course Messi is among the bet dribblers the game has ever seen and I can totally understand if one sees him as the best there has ever been. However, I think R9's agility and close control is fairly underrated in this discussion. The footage of him during his early career is absolutely outrageous. During his time at Barca and Inter he produced some incredible solo goals which stand their own against Messi's if you ask me, only that he did that in the span of only three years. Besides his incredible close control, acceleration and anticipation, one reason Messi's dribbling was above anyone else in his generation (Robben, Neymar, Hazard, etc.) was that he not only had this insane agility but also immense upper body strength which allowed him to dribble in the tightest of spaces and in close proximity to defenders. Occasions in which many others would have been outmuscled quite easily. R9 was even better in that aspect and if he beat a player, he was gone for good because while Messi would lose running duels against fast defenders, R9 outpaced everyone else. The things Ronaldo showed in those three years are absolutely insane even if you don't factor in that it happened in such a short time span and 2/3s of it in a very, very defensive minded league. But if you do factor that in, it's absolutely insane. The guy would just regularly take on the whole opposition team.

Regarding stats:

Well, I'm not a fan of analyzing goal stats out of context. I think it's insane that a player of Messi's playmaking quality has such an incredible goal record but it's also true that his and CR7's numbers were hugely inflated due to them playing for the far and away best teams in the league, arguably even the world, during their peaks. They were the centers of systems build to bring them into goal scoring opportunities. That wasn't the case for R9. Even when he played for Barca, the goal recors of the top teams in La Liga was at around 60% of it was today. And when he played for Inter, the best Serie A teams would regularly finish a season with less than 50 goals. You can't compare that. Drop R9 in his prime in a team like Messi's Barca or Cristiano's Madrid and I say he'll score similar amounts.

But that's fiction. We'll never know and the only thing certain is that you can't compare the stats, so we have to go with what our eyes tell us. And IMO, Ronaldo really earned his reputation as the phenomenon during those times. Incredible player.

Well I'd agree that if R9 had not suffered serious injuries he suffered, he might have been more often right up there in the conversation as the best ever and that before then he was El Fenomemo. Still it's a case of what might have been rather than what happened. And yes he was a force of nature untill he suffered those injuries. He was a player without any weakness at all and there is a good reason why Messi considered him his idol.

 

[ryadmahrez]

I see my post was pretty controversial as it seems

Regarding Messi's dribbling ability vs. R9's:

Of course Messi is among the bet dribblers the game has ever seen and I can totally understand if one sees him as the best there has ever been. However, I think R9's agility and close control is fairly underrated in this discussion. The footage of him during his early career is absolutely outrageous. During his time at Barca and Inter he produced some incredible solo goals which stand their own against Messi's if you ask me, only that he did that in the span of only three years. Besides his incredible close control, acceleration and anticipation, one reason Messi's dribbling was above anyone else in his generation (Robben, Neymar, Hazard, etc.) was that he not only had this insane agility but also immense upper body strength which allowed him to dribble in the tightest of spaces and in close proximity to defenders. Occasions in which many others would have been outmuscled quite easily. R9 was even better in that aspect and if he beat a player, he was gone for good because while Messi would lose running duels against fast defenders, R9 outpaced everyone else. The things Ronaldo showed in those three years are absolutely insane even if you don't factor in that it happened in such a short time span and 2/3s of it in a very, very defensive minded league. But if you do factor that in, it's absolutely insane. The guy would just regularly take on the whole opposition team.

Regarding stats:

Well, I'm not a fan of analyzing goal stats out of context. I think it's insane that a player of Messi's playmaking quality has such an incredible goal record but it's also true that his and CR7's numbers were hugely inflated due to them playing for the far and away best teams in the league, arguably even the world, during their peaks. They were the centers of systems build to bring them into goal scoring opportunities. That wasn't the case for R9. Even when he played for Barca, the goal recors of the top teams in La Liga was at around 60% of it was today. And when he played for Inter, the best Serie A teams would regularly finish a season with less than 50 goals. You can't compare that. Drop R9 in his prime in a team like Messi's Barca or Cristiano's Madrid and I say he'll score similar amounts.

But that's fiction. We'll never know and the only thing certain is that you can't compare the stats, so we have to go with what our eyes tell us. And IMO, Ronaldo really earned his reputation as the phenomenon during those times. Incredible player.

Respectfully you are just wrong. You could make a dribbling compilation of the best dribbles of those 3 top years of R9 and it would still wouldn’t hold w candle to one Messi(early 20’s) season.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I see my post was pretty controversial as it seems

Regarding Messi's dribbling ability vs. R9's:

Of course Messi is among the bet dribblers the game has ever seen and I can totally understand if one sees him as the best there has ever been. However, I think R9's agility and close control is fairly underrated in this discussion. The footage of him during his early career is absolutely outrageous. During his time at Barca and Inter he produced some incredible solo goals which stand their own against Messi's if you ask me, only that he did that in the span of only three years. Besides his incredible close control, acceleration and anticipation, one reason Messi's dribbling was above anyone else in his generation (Robben, Neymar, Hazard, etc.) was that he not only had this insane agility but also immense upper body strength which allowed him to dribble in the tightest of spaces and in close proximity to defenders. Occasions in which many others would have been outmuscled quite easily. R9 was even better in that aspect and if he beat a player, he was gone for good because while Messi would lose running duels against fast defenders, R9 outpaced everyone else. The things Ronaldo showed in those three years are absolutely insane even if you don't factor in that it happened in such a short time span and 2/3s of it in a very, very defensive minded league. But if you do factor that in, it's absolutely insane. The guy would just regularly take on the whole opposition team.

Regarding stats:

Well, I'm not a fan of analyzing goal stats out of context. I think it's insane that a player of Messi's playmaking quality has such an incredible goal record but it's also true that his and CR7's numbers were hugely inflated due to them playing for the far and away best teams in the league, arguably even the world, during their peaks. They were the centers of systems build to bring them into goal scoring opportunities. That wasn't the case for R9. Even when he played for Barca, the goal recors of the top teams in La Liga was at around 60% of it was today. And when he played for Inter, the best Serie A teams would regularly finish a season with less than 50 goals. You can't compare that. Drop R9 in his prime in a team like Messi's Barca or Cristiano's Madrid and I say he'll score similar amounts.

But that's fiction. We'll never know and the only thing certain is that you can't compare the stats, so we have to go with what our eyes tell us. And IMO, Ronaldo really earned his reputation as the phenomenon during those times. Incredible player.

Surely Ronaldo 102 international goals, was hugely inflated due to him playing for far and away best international team in Europe then. Whereas L.Ronaldo 62 international goal is limited by the fact that he didn't have good enough teammates and national team to back him up, should he played for Portugal he would have similar numbers.

Ok forget about stats, and lets continue to talk about 2 years peak performance only, and forget about the rest too, as thats everything which matters in football.

 

[mancan92]

Very fair post with good points. The only thing I’d slightly disagree with is the idea that Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo’s careers are far above the other 3. More total games and goals yes. More total trophy wins yes. But only at club level. Luis Ronaldo is a World Cup winner, a two time Copa America winner, a World Cup golden ball and golden boot winner, and a Copa America ‘best player’ and ‘most goals scored’ achiever

I think if you went to Messi or Cristiano and asked them if they wanted to swap career trophies with Ronaldo or Zidane, they’d have to think long and hard about it. Maybe I’m wrong, but it’s just my guess

Neither Messi or c Ronaldo played in internacional teams anywhere near the standard that Zidane's France and Lronaldo brazil its not even a comparison

 

[Zehner]

Respectfully you are just wrong. You could make a dribbling compilation of the best dribbles of those 3 top years of R9 and it would still wouldn’t hold w candle to one Messi(early 20’s) season.

I'm disagreeing with that. You can already find 30 minute dribbling compilations of R9 on YouTube and given those scenes were caught on camera before YouTube and co., this is even more impressive. Currently on the phone but when I've got time I'll sharr the clips I'm referring to.

Surely Ronaldo 102 international goals, was hugely inflated due to him playing for far and away best international team in Europe then. Whereas L.Ronaldo 62 international goal is limited by the fact that he didn't have good enough teammates and national team to back him up, should he played for Portugal he would have similar numbers.

Ok forget about stats, and lets continue to talk about 2 years peak performance only, and forget about the rest too, as thats everything which matters in football.

Man, I'm merely stating facts, don't shoot the messenger. I'm a huge admirer of Messi as you know but the goal inflation I'm talking about is real, sarcasm won't change that.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Collectively Messi and Ronaldo has both won over 30 major trophies over their career, thats at least 2-3 times more than the rest of them.

Individually they also had 5 and 6 Ballon D'ors, that's again at least 3 time more than the rest.

Not to mentioned their stats and records, which is at least 3 times better, again.

Johann Cruyff won 2-3 times the trophies that Maradona did and probably scored more goals. Still didn’t necessarily have a better career. It’s not quite that simple.

My point was this. Would you swap 15-18 major trophies and a World Cup (plus WC golden balls, golden boots etc) with 30+ trophies and no World Cup? I’d argue that this would be pretty tempting for Messi and CR. If you disagree, that’s fine.

So, number wise, in terms of major trophies, individual stats and honours, which measures the players overall achievements, both Ronaldo and Messi have done at least 3 times better.

Thats huge.

See above. It’s not just about raw numbers, especially in the case of Zidane, who is not a goalscorer. Again, my point was not that Messi and C. Ronaldo haven’t arguably had better overall careers, I was just questioning whether the gap is as big as you make out, given the disparity in international tournament performances and achievement.

You may argue the likes of L.Ronaldo/Zidane/Ronaldinho have all won a WC, the most prestigious trophy in football. But think about it, Pogba had also won a WC too didn't he? A lot of players did win it once too. Its only one-off WC, with 7 games to decide the winner, and they won it playing for probably the strongest team of the competition, I don't see it as particularly great achievement (of max 7 games) good enough to cancel out the other 30+ trophies they failed to win (over 700 games), which include multiple CL too. Otherwise do you think Pogba has a great career too, despite winning feck all in England (for nearly 200 games), just because he had won a WC (in 7 games)?

Pogba has had a very successful career, he’s won trophies at international level, in Italy and in England (not sure why the Europa league equates to ‘feck all’ in your estimation, unless you meant domestic trophies, in which case you’d still be off the mark because he’s won the league cup).

But we’re not talking about him and that’s not the point. It’s not about being just a member of a World Cup winning squad, though that’s nice. it’s about winning and/or starring at a World Cup which is what you’re supposed to do if you’re the best player in the world or one of the greatest players of all time.

I made reference to the fact that Ronaldo and Zidane (not so much Dinho) were the best players at international tournaments and extremely decisive when winning trophies. That’s important. I go back to the oft quoted stat that neither Messi not C. Ronaldo have scored a goal in the knockout rounds of the World Cup. CR has not even managed an assist. That’s pretty damning when you consider the fact that both have at least reached the semi-final.

Then you can factor in Zidane’s Euros win and ‘POTT‘ (he absolutely bossed that tournament) and Ronaldo’s double Copa America win and POTT and golden boot.
So the point I’m making is that Zidane and Ronaldo had much more successful international careers than Messi and CR. And if you’re like Pele and Maradona, you’re
even a further step up internationally, because you’re scoring some of the greatest goals that have ever been seen on the world’s biggest stage.

If you don’t think the World Cup is the still the game’s biggest stage, go look at the viewing figures for the WC final v the CL final. The World Cup final is the most watched sporting event in the world, bigger that the Super Bowl, twice as big as the CL final, bigger than everything.

And speaking of CL, Ronaldo won 5 CL, Messi also won 3 or 4 CL, but L.Ronaldo had won 0, whereas Zidane and Ronaldinho had only managed to win it once (they all played for the very best team in the world for years), you have to take account of all that too.

Watch the Asif Kapadia Maradona documentary, specifically the footage when Maradona returned home after the 86 World Cup holding the golden trophy.
There’s nothing else like it in football, even to this day when the CL has massively increased in importance (I accept that). That’s true glory. CR definitely got a taste of it with the Euros win, but the World Cup is 10 times bigger (and I wouldn’t say his performances in 2016 were legendary like Van Basten’s or Platini’s Euro showings for example: no golden boot, no POTT etc).

And Messi sadly hasn’t had a taste of it at all, the closest he got was when the fans turned out to welcome them home in 2014, in appreciation of a great effort that fell just short. Maybe he’ll win the Copa this year, which would be good for him

 

[NasirTimothy]

Neither Messi or c Ronaldo played in internacional teams anywhere near the standard that Zidane's France and Lronaldo brazil its not even a comparison

Is this the reason why Messi has not scored a single goal in the knockout rounds of the World Cup? And CR has not registered a single goal or assist? Or can we perhaps finally accept that neither have been quite as good in major international tournaments as for their superclubs?

 

[FattyFooty]

This peak nonsense has to stop. A good football player is measured in stability. Everyone can have killer games.

Are Fellaini "peak" better than Gullit? We all remember that performance vs us.

Are Arshavin the best player ever? That Liverpool game was sure one of the best "peak" i ever seen.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Regarding Messi's dribbling ability vs. R9's:

Of course Messi is among the bet dribblers the game has ever seen and I can totally understand if one sees him as the best there has ever been. However, I think R9's agility and close control is fairly underrated in this discussion. The footage of him during his early career is absolutely outrageous. During his time at Barca and Inter he produced some incredible solo goals which stand their own against Messi's if you ask me, only that he did that in the span of only three years. Besides his incredible close control, acceleration and anticipation, one reason Messi's dribbling was above anyone else in his generation (Robben, Neymar, Hazard, etc.) was that he not only had this insane agility but also immense upper body strength which allowed him to dribble in the tightest of spaces and in close proximity to defenders. Occasions in which many others would have been outmuscled quite easily. R9 was even better in that aspect and if he beat a player, he was gone for good because while Messi would lose running duels against fast defenders, R9 outpaced everyone else. The things Ronaldo showed in those three years are absolutely insane even if you don't factor in that it happened in such a short time span and 2/3s of it in a very, very defensive minded league. But if you do factor that in, it's absolutely insane. The guy would just regularly take on the whole opposition team.

R9 suffered his knee injury at the age of 23 years old.

Here's a selection of Messi games before that age;








Find me 6 games of Ronaldo dribbling players like Messi is here and I'll find you another 10 of Messi.

 

[mancan92]

Is this the reason why Messi has not scored a single goal in the knockout rounds of the World Cup? And CR has not registered a single goal or assist? Or can we perhaps finally accept that neither have been quite as good in major international tournaments as for their superclubs?

We can agree that neither of them play for teams anywhere as good as the ones you mentioned which is the truth. Both have done their fair share of carrying their international teams at various points. Which again is something neither R9 or Zidane had to do at any point. Anyway CR7 has won the euros with an OK at best Portugal team which is as good as winning the world Cup with stacked Brazilian and French teams.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Johann Cruyff won 2-3 times the trophies that Maradona did and probably scored more goals. Still didn’t necessarily have a better career. It’s not quite that simple.

My point was this. Would you swap 15-18 major trophies and a World Cup (plus WC golden balls, golden boots etc) with 30+ trophies and no World Cup? I’d argue that this would be pretty tempting for Messi and CR. If you disagree, that’s fine.



See above. It’s not just about raw numbers, especially in the case of Zidane, who is not a goalscorer. Again, my point was not that Messi and C. Ronaldo haven’t arguably had better overall careers, I was just questioning whether the gap is as big as you make out, given the disparity in international tournament performances and achievement.



Pogba has had a very successful career, he’s won trophies at international level, in Italy and in England (not sure why the Europa league equates to ‘feck all’ in your estimation, unless you meant domestic trophies, in which case you’d still be off the mark because he’s won the league cup).

But we’re not talking about him and that’s not the point. It’s not about being just a member of a World Cup winning squad, though that’s nice. it’s about winning and/or starring at a World Cup which is what you’re supposed to do if you’re the best player in the world or one of the greatest players of all time.

I made reference to the fact that Ronaldo and Zidane (not so much Dinho) were the best players at international tournaments and extremely decisive when winning trophies. That’s important. I go back to the oft quoted stat that neither Messi not C. Ronaldo have scored a goal in the knockout rounds of the World Cup. CR has not even managed an assist. That’s pretty damning when you consider the fact that both have at least reached the semi-final.

Then you can factor in Zidane’s Euros win and ‘POTT‘ (he absolutely bossed that tournament) and Ronaldo’s double Copa America win and POTT and golden boot.
So the point I’m making is that Zidane and Ronaldo had much more successful international careers than Messi and CR. And if you’re like Pele and Maradona, you’re
even a further step up internationally, because you’re scoring some of the greatest goals that have ever been seen on the world’s biggest stage.

If you don’t think the World Cup is the still the game’s biggest stage, go look at the viewing figures for the WC final v the CL final. The World Cup final is the most watched sporting event in the world, bigger that the Super Bowl, twice as big as the CL final, bigger than everything.




Watch the Asif Kapadia Maradona documentary, specifically the footage when Maradona returned home after the 86 World Cup holding the golden trophy.
There’s nothing else like it in football, even to this day when the CL has massively increased in importance (I accept that). That’s true glory. CR definitely got a taste of it with the Euros win, but the World Cup is 10 times bigger (and I wouldn’t say his performances in 2016 were legendary like Van Basten’s or Platini’s Euro showings for example: no golden boot, no POTT etc).

And Messi sadly hasn’t had a taste of it at all, the closest he got was when the fans turned out to welcome them home in 2014, in appreciation of a great effort that fell just short. Maybe he’ll win the Copa this year, which would be good for him

I do think, career wise, the gap is huge.

For you may 1 WC is more important than anything else, I can't stop you or some bloke name Kleberson thinking this way.

But on grand scheme of things, I do think Messi/Ronaldo career is at least 2-3 times better than Ronaldo/Zidane/Ronaldhino, and its not even close enough for a comparison.

For Maradona case, I think we must look into the context too, leading Argentian to WC (with 5 goals, 5 assists, avg 8-10 successful dribble per game) isn't same as leading France in their golden era, or Brazil in their 3R golden era to WC, and leading Napoli to 2 Serie A titles during 80s isn't same as leading Real Madrid Galaticos or Barcelona all conquering team to a 1 or 2 league titles.

But lets only talk about major achievements which worth talk about in GOAT sense then:


Major Trophies:

WC:
L.Ronaldo x 1
Zidane x 1
Ronaldinho x 1
Messi x 0
Ronaldo x 0

(Pogba, Kleberson, and many hundreds of others, has 1 WC too)

Euro/Copa:
L.Ronaldo x 2
Ronadinho x 1
Zidane x 1
Ronaldo x 1
Messi x 0

(Sanchez has 2 Copa too)

CL:
Ronaldo x 5
Messi x 3 or 4
Zidane x 1
Ronaldinho x 1
L.Ronaldo x 0

(no one in modern era has more than 4 or 5 CL, except Ronaldo/Messi)

Major Individual honours

Ballon D'or:
Messi x 6
Ronaldo x 5
L.Ronaldo x 2
Zidane x 1
Ronaldinho x1

(no one in football history has more than 5 or 6 Ballon D'or, except Ronaldo/Messi)

Individual stats:

Career stats:
Ronaldo x 767 goals, 223 assists = 990 goals + assists
Messi x 729 goals, 307 assists = 1036 goals + assists
L.Ronaldo x 414 goals, 77 assists = 491 goals + assists
Ronaldinho x 299 goals, 163 assists = 462 goals + assists
Zidane x 156 goals, 119 assists = 275 goals + assists

(very very few in football history has more than 700+ official goals in top level. I am not sure if there is any player who has around 1000 goals+assists? Maybe only Ronaldo and Messi)

The career gap shown above isn't even close, its huge. To be honest its much closer comparing CV of some other all time greats to some average bloke in football, rather than these 2 players to the rest.

Now would you honestly prefer to have Messi/Ronaldo career, or L.Ronaldo/Zidane/Ronaldinho instead?

 

[SirMonteyne]

De Lima was exceptional for some time, I remember some of his best games, and also some of his bad games like losing a goal-scoring chance by overdribbling, losing easy headers, overcharging toward goalkeepers, and making wrong wide runs, etc. (excluding his injuries, those are the reason of why his stat doesn't live up to his talent)
I am just saying he was also a human. He is definitely on Zidane, Ronaldinho, Xavi's tier.

However, the other two guys are having a miraculous career, most importantly consistency and longevity. Even if De Lima never had any injuries, I don't believe he would have similar stats as those two guys. Some people may say stats are just stats, but it's not a case for those two. Many magical moments have happened behind those stats. Maybe you forgot those moments.

I precious my time of being a football fan, watching those amazing games played by players like Scholes, De Lima, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Beckham, Henry, Xavi, Pirlo, Ronaldo, Messi, etc is a great memory. But fooling myself by ignoring Messi, CR's greatness is just arrogance.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Man, I'm merely stating facts, don't shoot the messenger. I'm a huge admirer of Messi as you know but the goal inflation I'm talking about is real, sarcasm won't change that.

Sure I do agree the stats of Messi/Ronaldo could be somewhat inflated, but not by that much. Otherwise everyone else playing under same team should have inflated stats too, but it didn't seem to be the case. But I do think you have tried to understate Mess/Ronaldo numbers abit in order to prove your point on L.Ronaldo. In general, I agree L.Ronaldo was one of best football talent ever though, I think talent-wise he is not less than Messi, and more than Cristiano, just that his 2 years peak has been overstated abit too much here.

 

[Cal?]

I see my post was pretty controversial as it seems

Regarding Messi's dribbling ability vs. R9's:

Of course Messi is among the bet dribblers the game has ever seen and I can totally understand if one sees him as the best there has ever been. However, I think R9's agility and close control is fairly underrated in this discussion. The footage of him during his early career is absolutely outrageous. During his time at Barca and Inter he produced some incredible solo goals which stand their own against Messi's if you ask me, only that he did that in the span of only three years. Besides his incredible close control, acceleration and anticipation, one reason Messi's dribbling was above anyone else in his generation (Robben, Neymar, Hazard, etc.) was that he not only had this insane agility but also immense upper body strength which allowed him to dribble in the tightest of spaces and in close proximity to defenders. Occasions in which many others would have been outmuscled quite easily. R9 was even better in that aspect and if he beat a player, he was gone for good because while Messi would lose running duels against fast defenders, R9 outpaced everyone else. The things Ronaldo showed in those three years are absolutely insane even if you don't factor in that it happened in such a short time span and 2/3s of it in a very, very defensive minded league. But if you do factor that in, it's absolutely insane. The guy would just regularly take on the whole opposition team.

Regarding stats:

Well, I'm not a fan of analyzing goal stats out of context. I think it's insane that a player of Messi's playmaking quality has such an incredible goal record but it's also true that his and CR7's numbers were hugely inflated due to them playing for the far and away best teams in the league, arguably even the world, during their peaks. They were the centers of systems build to bring them into goal scoring opportunities. That wasn't the case for R9. Even when he played for Barca, the goal recors of the top teams in La Liga was at around 60% of it was today. And when he played for Inter, the best Serie A teams would regularly finish a season with less than 50 goals. You can't compare that. Drop R9 in his prime in a team like Messi's Barca or Cristiano's Madrid and I say he'll score similar amounts.

But that's fiction. We'll never know and the only thing certain is that you can't compare the stats, so we have to go with what our eyes tell us. And IMO, Ronaldo really earned his reputation as the phenomenon during those times. Incredible player.

What is the world coming to? Me arguing the case for one Lionel Messi.

The fact is L Ronaldo didn't play for weak teams in Barca, Inter or Real, he's won very little. For someone who's supposed to be one of the best ever, he should have won more.

So he won "2" WCs by not playing a single minute in 1, that's contributing even less than Messi's 2006 CL win.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I do think, career wise, the gap is huge.

For you may 1 WC is more important than anything else, I can't stop you or some bloke name Kleberson thinking this way.

I’ve already explained to you that there’s a difference between being an iconic/talismanic World Cup player and a member of a World Cup winning squad. You seem to have ignored this point and come up with an even worse straw man than your previous selection of Pogba. Not sure why you don’t get this point.

But on grand scheme of things, I do think Messi/Ronaldo career is at least 2-3 times better than Ronaldo/Zidane/Ronaldhino, and its not even close enough for a comparison.

I don’t. It might be better, but it’s not 2 or 3 times better, that’s ridiculous. How many times better do you think Messi and Ronaldo’s careers are than Gerd Muller’s?

For Maradona case, I think we must look into the context too, leading Argentian to WC (with 5 goals, 5 assists, avg 8-10 successful dribble per game) isn't same as leading France in their golden era, or Brazil in their 3R golden era to WC, and leading Napoli to 2 Serie A titles during 80s isn't same as leading Real Madrid Galaticos or Barcelona all conquering team to a 1 or 2 league titles.

You are thinking in retrospect. Before France won the World Cup (for the first time in their history, the hardest thing to do in football), who had them as favourites or thought they were some great team? Try and explain how that France period was a golden age and the Platini/Giresse/Tigana period wasn’t? What’s the difference?

Same with Brazil in 2002. It’s the winning that makes you great and gets you ‘great team’ status if you have a few good players. In 1998, Brazil and Germany were favoured over France pre-tournament. In 2002 Argentina, France and Italy were favoured over Brazil. How do you explain this if those teams were so obviously great?

Brazil qualified 3rd in SA (13 points behind Argentina) Ronaldinho was only 22 and a PSG playboy, Ronaldo was just coming back from almost 3 years out of the game; people thought he would never play again. They were by no means expected to do what they did. Go back and look at the write ups before those competitions.

If Argentina had won the World Cup in 2014 and a couple of those Copa Americas finals in the last 10 years then this period with Messi, Higuain, Aguero, DiMaria, Dybala etc would have been viewed as a golden age. But they didn’t, so it isn’t.

Similarly if Portugal had won the World Cup with C. Ronaldo, Figo, Carvalho, Deco, Postiga, Ferreira etc then that would have been deemed an all time great team. But they only got to the semis, and lost in the Euros final at home 2 years before that.

But lets only talk about major achievements which worth talk about in GOAT sense then:


Major Trophies:

WC:
L.Ronaldo x 1
Zidane x 1
Ronaldinho x 1
Messi x 0
Ronaldo x 0

(Pogba, Kleberson, and many hundreds of others, has 1 WC too)

Again, you make ridiculous references to Pogba and Kleberson. How many World Cup golden balls do they have? Or golden boots? Please try and understand the difference, it’s not complicated

Euro/Copa:
L.Ronaldo x 2
Ronadinho x 1
Zidane x 1
Ronaldo x 1
Messi x 0

(Sanchez has 2 Copa too)

CL:
Ronaldo x 5
Messi x 3 or 4
Zidane x 1
Ronaldinho x 1
L.Ronaldo x 0

(no one in modern era has more than 4 or 5 CL, except Ronaldo/Messi)

You’re just listing accolades here so there’s no debate. But why do you keep saying ‘Messi 3 or 4’ in relation to CL wins? It’s really weird. He has four CL winners medals

Major Individual honours

Ballon D'or:
Messi x 6
Ronaldo x 5
L.Ronaldo x 2
Zidane x 1
Ronaldinho x1

(no one in football history has more than 5 or 6 Ballon D'or, except Ronaldo/Messi)

This is where you start going wrong. Zidane and Ronaldo are both 3 time FIFA world player of the year recipients prior to the merging of the BDO and FIFA WPOTY. Ronaldo was not even eligible for the Ballon D’Or for a few years at the start of his career. So it’s not a proper comparison, though CR and Messi obviously still have more.

Individual stats:

Career stats:
Ronaldo x 767 goals, 223 assists = 990 goals + assists
Messi x 729 goals, 307 assists = 1036 goals + assists
L.Ronaldo x 414 goals, 77 assists = 491 goals + assists
Ronaldinho x 299 goals, 163 assists = 462 goals + assists
Zidane x 156 goals, 119 assists = 275 goals + assists

(very very few in football history has more than 700+ official goals in top level. I am not sure if there is any player who has around 1000 goals+assists? Maybe only Ronaldo and Messi)

The career gap shown above isn't even close, its huge. To be honest its much closer comparing CV of some other all time greats to some average bloke in football, rather than these 2 players to the rest.

Quite a few players have 1000+ goal contributions: Pele, Müller, Puskas, Romario etc.

However, you’ll know that just adding up goals and assists isn’t the way it works in comparing players who play totally different positions. Not only are statistics generally imperfect outside of context, but you’re ignoring hundreds of other stats: dribbles, key passes, chances created etc etc etc.

Your name is ‘Red Ronaldo’, which means you’re probably a Cristiano fan. By your own numbers, Messi has 46 more G/A in 150 less games. Therefore by your own measure, Messi has had a better career than C. Ronaldo, case closed. No context allowed.

Now would you honestly prefer to have Messi/Ronaldo career, or L.Ronaldo/Zidane/Ronaldinho instead?

The latter, for the reasons I outlined. Obviously I wouldn’t want Ronaldo’s injuries, but one World Cup is worth any number of CLs with financially doped up superclubs IMO

However the career I’d really want is Pele’s. Better volume stats than Messi and C. Ronaldo, more iconic and better performances on the biggest stage in football

 

[Bogdannn]

If you can give ‘countless lists’ then post them. Who made these lists, fans with erratic impulses like you or people with actual knowledge of the game? Cos if it’s the latter, there’s no way Zidane is not top 20, and in most cases top 10 as I demonstrated.

I am a newbie and do not have the privilege to post video links yet. As for who made them, similar people to the ones who made the lists you posted.

Your post makes no sense at all and speaks to your own definitions of ‘best’ and ‘greatest’ rather that the actual definitions. ‘best’ and ‘greatest’ both mean ‘of the highest quality‘.

No, they don't. BOAT is all about peak form, GOAT is all about achievements.

Re the players that you’ve named here, I’d say only Pele, Maradona, Messi, DiSefano, and Cruyff were clearly better players. All the others are debatable or wrong.

All the ones I mentioned are better than Zidane. Being elegant is not the same as being effective and useful to a team.

Ronaldo played in the same team as Zidane and by that stage Zidane was better, though obviously prime Ronaldo would have possibly been viewed as the superior player.

Prime Ronaldo was far superior, it ain't even close. Even Juventus fans laughed at the idea Zidane was comparable to R9, when both were in Serie A. They all considered Del Piero as the only player from their team that could challenge R9.
And when R9 and ZZ both played at Real, from around 2002 to around 2004, R9 was clearly better, even though he was no longer the same beast due to knee injuries.

Beckenbauer is a debate: he changed the game re the libero innovation.

And that's why he is greater than Zidane.

CR7 has the weight of his incredible goalscoring so you could make an argument for him, but he has been relatively poor in major international competitions, especially the World Cup.

He won a Euro Cup. Given that he plays for Portugal, that's good enough. He too could have won the WC with the team France had in 98.
And his club career is lightyears better than that of ZZ.

The ones that are clearly wrong: Zidane has consistently been voted above Platini as France’s greatest ever player (and indeed above Thierry Henry, whom you also hilariously tried to claim was better than Zidane, when they played together for France and Thierry himself would tell you who the better player was).

Most people that voted haven't even seen Platini play. Being voted is one thing, actually being superior is another.
Platini was the better player by far. He was a far superior scorer and free kick taker. He was a better passer. The only thing ZZ has got going for himself is dribbling ability and skills, Platini beats him in all other departments.

Romario is very underrated and a favourite of mine, but you can’t put a pure finisher (for all his skill and subtlety) above an orchestrator like Zidane.

Yes you can put a pure finisher above an orchestrator when the first one brings more to a team in terms of effectiveness and end product. That's why I also put Henry over Zidane.

Xavi and Iniesta are both great players and I’m a fan of their games. But they played most of their careers as a tandem and also with a player that was considered to be much better than them and the talisman of their team. That never happened to Zidane. He was the best player and talisman for every team he played for, France, Real Madrid and Juventus. He also stood out a bit more at international level than those two as the fulcrum of his team as opposed to a cog in the machine (and that’s taking nothing away from what Xavi and Iniesta achieved; we’re talking fine margins here)

No, ZZ was not the best player for every team he played for. Before his injury, Del Piero was by far the best player at Juventus. ZZ did not manage to win any leagues with Juve in his last 3 seasons there. After he replaced ZZ, Nedved brought more to Juve than ZZ ever did.
R9 was better in the first 2 years they both played at Real.
And in 98, the likes of Thuram, Vieira and Blanc were far more important for France than ZZ was.
Xavi and Iniesta have been far more consistent and useful for their teams than ZZ was for his. And ZZ would have also been considered inferior had he played with Messi in his team, they ain't even close ability wise.

 

[Bogdannn]

32 pages ?, people debating who's better between Cristiano and fat Ronaldo. You lot just say you prefer fatty because 1. You're a messi fanboy, 2. You hate Cristiano. 3.Cristiano fecked your team so much . 4. Your team has never produced a better player, 5. You're jealous. 6.All of the above.

Only kids call R9 "fat Ronaldo".
Prime vs prime, he was superior to CR7. R9 was a far better dribbler and more skilled with the ball, and he had incredible physical traits to go along with that.

 

[padr81]

R9 is probably my fave player of all time and all these what ifs.. etc.. matter not a shite, CR7 had a higher peak, has a longer and more consistent career more trophies and is a better footballer. R9 was amazing but was never even at his best near CR7 numbers.

 

[Bogdannn]

Saying Messi’s dribbling isn’t on R9 level? Doesnt make you seem very subjective though. Messi at his best is regarded the best dribbler there ever was by most I would say.

R9 was a great dribbler, especially at open space, because of his incredible explosiveness that seemed to be endlessly. Thats why in open space R9 was perpaps better. Even though prime Messi had incredible speed himself.

But ultimately overall Messi blows him away. R9 his close control wasn’t as tight as that of a Messi, not close. Messi was/is obviously levels above him in tight spaces. R9 could occasionally dribble multiple people at his absolute best, but never as consistently as Messi in his prime. He just couldn’t. I’ve seen nobody who could. Messi was a threat to dribble the whole team at every possession every week.

I would go as far that you could make a dribbling compilation of one season of Messi (prime)and it would be more impressive than a compilation of R9’s dribbling over his whole career. Same with the passing of Messi and R9, one season of Messi’s passing is more impressive than R9 whole career. No strenght and speed makes up for that imo.

Messi is not the best dribbler of all time, not by any means. It's way easier to dribble now when defenders can't break your legs. Put Messi in 80s and 90s Serie A and he'd do well to get past 2 or 3 successful dribbles the whole match. And he'd only pass 1 or 2 defenders at most. After the first successful dribble, he'd be hunted down by the opposing team, being fouled constantly. And then every time he would get the ball, he would try to get rid of it as soon as possible, by passing it to a teammate, out of fear he might get hit again.

 

[Bogdannn]

I love R9 but he's not a better dribbler than Messi. Find me 3 of Ronaldo's best ever games and I'll find you 15 from Messi where he exhibits better dribbling ability. R9 was fearless and capable of some amazing stuff but Messi was taking out 4 or 5 players regularly, even if you only compare them as teenagers.

Messi was taking on 4-5 players cause it's easier in this era, defenders can't break your legs anymore.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

R9 is probably my fave player of all time and all these what ifs.. etc.. matter not a shite, CR7 had a higher peak, has a longer and more consistent career more trophies and is a better footballer. R9 was amazing but was never even at his best near CR7 numbers.

agree with all of this. Like you R9 was a favourite player of mine, first saw him when he played against England, and he was wearing braces.

breathtaking.

but as you say, CR7 was a better player, no matter how you judge it. Doesn’t diminish R9, as he’s one of the best players to have played the game, and none more explosive in those first couple of years.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

Messi was taking on 4-5 players cause it's easier in this era, defenders can't break your legs anymore.

Right, because every player who dribbled suffered broken legs back in the late 90s? No they didn't, in the same way you don't see any other players in the modern era take on 4-5 players like Messi did in his prime.

You're the same guy who said Messi isn't as talented as Ronaldinho because you've never seen him do an elastico then claimed you used to a professional footballer. Forgive me if I struggle to take you seriously.

 

[Morty_]

Messi was taking on 4-5 players cause it's easier in this era, defenders can't break your legs anymore.

Yes, thats why everybody does it, oh wait....

 

[NasirTimothy]

I am a newbie and do not have the privilege to post video links yet. As for who made them, similar people to the ones who made the lists you posted.

Convenient. I didn’t actually ask for video links by the way

No, they don't. BOAT is all about peak form, GOAT is all about achievements.

According to who? Certainly not the dictionary

All the ones I mentioned are better than Zidane. Being elegant is not the same as being effective and useful to a team.

if you think Zidane wasn’t effective to a team, you don’t understand football, I’m very sorry to say

Prime Ronaldo was far superior, it ain't even close. Even Juventus fans laughed at the idea Zidane was comparable to R9, when both were in Serie A. They all considered Del Piero as the only player from their team that could challenge R9.
And when R9 and ZZ both played at Real, from around 2002 to around 2004, R9 was clearly better, even though he was no longer the same beast due to knee injuries.

Which Juventus fans? Where’s your evidence? This is a bit of a problem for you, substituting your own opinion for fact.

And that's why he is greater than Zidane.

Debatable as they played completely different positions.

He won a Euro Cup. Given that he plays for Portugal, that's good enough. He too could have won the WC with the team France had in 98.
And his club career is lightyears better than that of ZZ.

Why is it good enough? He got to a WC semi final with a very good Portugal team and lost narrowly to....a France team led by the best player of that tournament, a certain Zinedine Zidane. And if you think a 21 year old Ronaldo was too young to have an impact on a World Cup, let me tell you a story about a 17 year old kid called Edson Arantes do Nascimento.....

Most people that voted haven't even seen Platini play. Being voted is one thing, actually being superior is another.
Platini was the better player by far. He was a far superior scorer and free kick taker. He was a better passer. The only thing ZZ has got going for himself is dribbling ability and skills, Platini beats him in all other departments.

Nonsense, Platini played in the 80s, not 1910. Many people who voted in those polls would have seen him play. He scored more goals, that’s it. He was not a better passer or playmaker than Zidane IMO

Yes you can put a pure finisher above an orchestrator when the first one brings more to a team in terms of effectiveness and end product. That's why I also put Henry over Zidane.

Well then you need to educate yourself on the subtleties of football. Putting Henry over Zidane is a ridiculous opinion in the light of Henry himself stating that ZZ was France’s best player when they operated together

No, ZZ was not the best player for every team he played for. Before his injury, Del Piero was by far the best player at Juventus. ZZ did not manage to win any leagues with Juve in his last 3 seasons there. After he replaced ZZ, Nedved brought more to Juve than ZZ ever did.
R9 was better in the first 2 years they both played at Real.
And in 98, the likes of Thuram, Vieira and Blanc were far more important for France than ZZ was.
Xavi and Iniesta have been far more consistent and useful for their teams than ZZ was for his. And ZZ would have also been considered inferior had he played with Messi in his team, they ain't even close ability wise.

Zidane was 2 times world player of the year (and finished 3rd once) when he played for Juventus and now Del Piero, who finished sixth once and was never again in the top 10, was better. Hilarious. I won’t even bother addressing your nonsense about French defenders being more important to the national team than Zidane, and I’ve already spoken about Xavi and Iniesta. It’s obvious you have some kind of agenda, I’m not sure what it is. Maybe you don’t like French Algerians, I don’t know, haha

What is definitely clear is that you make arguments without any evidence and state your own opinions as if they are fact. They’re not

 

[padr81]

agree with all of this. Like you R9 was a favourite player of mine, first saw him when he played against England, and he was wearing braces.

breathtaking.

but as you say, CR7 was a better player, no matter how you judge it. Doesn’t diminish R9, as he’s one of the best players to have played the game, and none more explosive in those first couple of years.

Exactly dude, people act like just because you say "Hey your fave player, player x wasn't as good as the two best footballers of all time" its some kind of slander. R9 is still and always will be a legend, he'll just never be a Messi, Pele, CR7 level legend.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I’ve already explained to you that there’s a difference between being an iconic/talismanic World Cup player and a member of a World Cup winning squad. You seem to have ignored this point and come up with an even worse straw man than your previous selection of Pogba. Not sure why you don’t get this point.



I don’t. It might be better, but it’s not 2 or 3 times better, that’s ridiculous. How many times better do you think Messi and Ronaldo’s careers are than Gerd Muller’s?



You are thinking in retrospect. Before France won the World Cup (for the first time in their history, the hardest thing to do in football), who had them as favourites or thought they were some great team? Try and explain how that France period was a golden age and the Platini/Giresse/Tigana period wasn’t? What’s the difference?

Same with Brazil in 2002. It’s the winning that makes you great and gets you ‘great team’ status if you have a few good players. In 1998, Brazil and Germany were favoured over France pre-tournament. In 2002 Argentina, France and Italy were favoured over Brazil. How do you explain this if those teams were so obviously great?

Brazil qualified 3rd in SA (13 points behind Argentina) Ronaldinho was only 22 and a PSG playboy, Ronaldo was just coming back from almost 3 years out of the game; people thought he would never play again. They were by no means expected to do what they did. Go back and look at the write ups before those competitions.

If Argentina had won the World Cup in 2014 and a couple of those Copa Americas finals in the last 10 years then this period with Messi, Higuain, Aguero, DiMaria, Dybala etc would have been viewed as a golden age. But they didn’t, so it isn’t.

Similarly if Portugal had won the World Cup with C. Ronaldo, Figo, Carvalho, Deco, Postiga, Ferreira etc then that would have been deemed an all time great team. But they only got to the semis, and lost in the Euros final at home 2 years before that.



Again, you make ridiculous references to Pogba and Kleberson. How many World Cup golden balls do they have? Or golden boots? Please try and understand the difference, it’s not complicated




You’re just listing accolades here so there’s no debate. But why do you keep saying ‘Messi 3 or 4’ in relation to CL wins? It’s really weird. He has four CL winners medals



This is where you start going wrong. Zidane and Ronaldo are both 3 time FIFA world player of the year recipients prior to the merging of the BDO and FIFA WPOTY. Ronaldo was not even eligible for the Ballon D’Or for a few years at the start of his career. So it’s not a proper comparison, though CR and Messi obviously still have more.



Quite a few players have 1000+ goal contributions: Pele, Müller, Puskas, Romario etc.

However, you’ll know that just adding up goals and assists isn’t the way it works in comparing players who play totally different positions. Not only are statistics generally imperfect outside of context, but you’re ignoring hundreds of other stats: dribbles, key passes, chances created etc etc etc.

Your name is ‘Red Ronaldo’, which means you’re probably a Cristiano fan. By your own numbers, Messi has 46 more G/A in 150 less games. Therefore by your own measure, Messi has had a better career than C. Ronaldo, case closed. No context allowed.




The latter, for the reasons I outlined. Obviously I wouldn’t want Ronaldo’s injuries, but one World Cup is worth any number of CLs with financially doped up superclubs IMO

However the career I’d really want is Pele’s. Better volume stats than Messi and C. Ronaldo, more iconic and better performances on the biggest stage in football

It’s very long response from you, I am not going to quote it back point by point as it’s too troublesome, but I’ll just break it down into points:

1. Pogba is definitely a talisman in France WC winning squad, so the comparison is perfectly valid.

2. If you want to compare Muller with Messi/Ronaldo, then yes, Messi/Ronaldo is still easily better, in terms of number of Ballon D’or. Messi has 6, Ronaldo has 5, Muller only has 1. In terms of major trophies (WC, Euro, CL), Muller is similar to Ronaldo, and better than Messi. In terms of total no. of trophies, Muller has 16, which is only half as good. In terms of stats, they are all similar.

3. Messi has 4 CL medals, but the first one was basically won by Ronaldinho. Messi was just a kid back then and has only played a bit part role for the team. He didn’t feature at last 16, last 8, semi final and final of CL that year. It like saying Jordi Cruyff has won us treble in 1999, when in fact he was only bit part player spending most of time on bench. So I couldn’t count him fully on that.

4. Well you need to get your facts right first before posting. Ballon D’or has include players from all origins from 1995 onwards. Ronaldo was runners up in 1996, and won it on 1997. 1995 was won by Weah, who is African. Are you suggesting he should also win it in 1994 or before, when he was only a 16-17 unknown kid playing in Brazil league or youth team? Also, FIFA award has officially ended in 2009, so it’s hard to compare. Ballon D’or is by far most prestigious individual awards in football, with longest and most complete history, so it’s best to just compare with this.

5. The only reason I include assist numbers, is because Zidane and Ronaldinho is attacking midfielder and more as a creator of goals, so it’s unfair to compare goals only to them. I don’t know why you are so against it, as it’s actually helps them looks better.

6. Stats is not the only metric I use here to compare players career. I don’t know why you draw that conclusion so prematurely (regarding Messi vs Ronaldo). Basically I gave indepth comparison of the following matrix to give a holistic view of players career, namely: Major trophies (WC, Euro/Copa, CL), Individual awards/honors (Ballon D’or), total no. of trophies, individual stats/records (goals/assist). This is as complete as you can get when accessing a players career.

7. Sure, I wouldn’t stop you if all you want is 1 WC+1 Ballon D’or+15 trophies+300-400 career goals+assist, over 5 CL+5 Ballon D’or+35 trophies+1000 career goals+assists. Stranger things happened, as some people may prefer to be poorer than richer too.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Messi is not the best dribbler of all time, not by any means. It's way easier to dribble now when defenders can't break your legs. Put Messi in 80s and 90s Serie A and he'd do well to get past 2 or 3 successful dribbles the whole match. And he'd only pass 1 or 2 defenders at most. After the first successful dribble, he'd be hunted down by the opposing team, being fouled constantly. And then every time he would get the ball, he would try to get rid of it as soon as possible, by passing it to a teammate, out of fear he might get hit again.

You are just making up a hypothetical scenario in your mind which doesn’t exist. There’s no way anyone could tell how well he could dribble in 80s or 90s. But he was definitely by far the best and most consistent dribbler in the world from late 2000s to present, basically throughout his career.

 

[NasirTimothy]

It’s very long response from you, I am not going to quote it back point by point as it’s too troublesome, but I’ll just break it down into points:

Ironic, as your response was also pretty long

1. Pogba is definitely a talisman in France WC winning squad, so the comparison is perfectly valid.

No it wasn’t. I watched a programme not too long ago which was called the 50 greatest moments in World Cup history (up to 2018). Zidane and Luis Ronaldo both featured, Messi and C. Ronaldo were conspicuous by their absence. Of course the top moments were occupied by the usual suspects, Maradona and Pele. I didn’t see any mention of Paul Pogba or Kleberson. I know you totally understand the point I am making but are being wilfully obtuse about it.

2. If you want to compare Muller with Messi/Ronaldo, then yes, Messi/Ronaldo is still easily better, in terms of number of Ballon D’or. Messi has 6, Ronaldo has 5, Muller only has 1. In terms of major trophies (WC, Euro, CL), Muller is similar to Ronaldo, and better than Messi. In terms of total no. of trophies, Muller has 16, which is only half as good. In terms of stats, they are all similar.

I think you seriously need to look into the history of the Ballon D’Or and how the awarding of it has changed, if that’s all you’re hanging your argument on. You always seem to ignore historical differences and judge everything by modern day standards (a common fallacy with people who think that Messi and Ronaldo are unique in football history).

Muller’s Bayern won 3 straight ECs, at a time when you had to be the champion of your country (or of the EC) to compete. If those were the rules now, I think CR would have maybe 1 or 2 CLs. Also, it goes without saying that Muller won both the WC and the EC, claiming the golden boot in both (Muller broke the WC all time goals record and it stood for almost 40 years until Luis Ronaldo passed him). Muller also scored in 2 EC finals, the Euros final and the winning goal in the World Cup final. In terms of goals per game, he is still the most prolific goalscorer in EC/CL history. At international level he has a far superior goal ratio to both Messi and and CR.

Re the total trophies, you have to understand that Muller didn’t play for financially doped up superclubs. Messi and Ronaldo are much less successful when they are not playing with some of the most expensively assembled squads in history, or the products of multi-million euro (€) academies that steal players from all around the world. Bayern were not a majorly successful club in the days before the Muller/Beckenbauer era (as an astute poster on this board pointed out to me). Obviously I’m not saying Muller was a better all round player, but it’s hilarious that you can just dismiss his successful career based on nothing more than recency bias.

3. Messi has 4 CL medals, but the first one was basically won by Ronaldinho. Messi was just a kid back then and has only played a bit part role for the team. He didn’t feature at last 16, last 8, semi final and final of CL that year. It like saying Jordi Cruyff has won us treble in 1999, when in fact he was only bit part player spending most of time on bench. So I couldn’t count him fully on that.

Well you’d be wrong. Trophies are won by teams. If you participated properly and you get a medal, then it counts. I’d understand this argument for Luis Ronaldo in WC 1994 or Kaká in 2002, but Messi put in some excellent performances that year (I’m pretty sure that was the year he ran Chelsea ragged)

4. Well you need to get your facts right first before posting. Ballon D’or has include players from all origins from 1995 onwards. Ronaldo was runners up in 1996, and won it on 1997. 1995 was won by Weah, who is African. Are you suggesting he should also win it in 1994 or before, when he was only a 16-17 unknown kid playing in Brazil league or youth team? Also, FIFA award has officially ended in 2009, so it’s hard to compare. Ballon D’or is by far most prestigious individual awards in football, with longest and most complete history, so it’s best to just compare with this.

My facts are right, what is not right is your understanding of history or context. Ronaldo began playing at a senior professional level in 1993, and it was not until 3 years later that he went to what we would term a big club in Barcelona. If he was playing today, there is no way his first landing spot in Europe would have been PSV. Indeed he may have been signed by a European superclub as a child.

Ronaldo had a goal a game record at PSV, and if he was getting those numbers at a bigger club, he would have been in contention for the BDO in 94 and 95 (had he been eligible in 94, which he wasn’t).

The Ballon D’Or has a long history but it is a European award and its increasing importance in the world game is symbolic of the centring of the world club game in a few European superclubs in recent years.

5. The only reason I include assist numbers, is because Zidane and Ronaldinho is attacking midfielder and more as a creator of goals, so it’s unfair to compare goals only to them. I don’t know why you are so against it, as it’s actually helps them looks better.

Obviously you are correct in saying that is is silly to compare the goal records of eg C. Ronaldo and Zidane. But if you understand football, you’ll know that assists alone are a very poor measure of creativity. Luis Suarez has more career assists than Andres Iniesta, who is the more creative player?

6. Stats is not the only metric I use here to compare players career. I don’t know why you draw that conclusion so prematurely (regarding Messi vs Ronaldo). Basically I gave indepth comparison of the following matrix to give a holistic view of players career, namely: Major trophies (WC, Euro/Copa, CL), Individual awards/honors (Ballon D’or), total no. of trophies, individual stats/records (goals/assist). This is as complete as you can get when accessing a players career.

It’s not an in depth comparison at all. I’d respectfully submit that it is quite a shallow comparison based on 3 things that are not fixed entities. I brought up Maradona previously and then all of a sudden you started adding context to the debate that was totally absent from your arguments previously. But the point remains. Diego Maradona has 8 major trophies and 300 odd career goals. Why is he still considered by many knowledgeable people to be the greatest player of all time?

7. Sure, I wouldn’t stop you if all you want is 1 WC+1 Ballon D’or+15 trophies+300-400 career goals+assist, over 5 CL+5 Ballon D’or+35 trophies+1000 career goals+assists. Stranger things happened, as some people may prefer to be poorer than richer too.

If we’re using dodgy metaphors, I guess I’ll have to play along and explain that possessing something of true value (i.e. gold), can in certain circumstances make you richer than obtaining the transitory value of paper money or money with no physical manifestation at all......

 

[Lay]

@NasirTimothy needs a promotion

 

[NasirTimothy]

@NasirTimothy needs a promotion

Thanks @Lay

 

[Bogdannn]

Respectfully you are just wrong. You could make a dribbling compilation of the best dribbles of those 3 top years of R9 and it would still wouldn’t hold w candle to one Messi(early 20’s) season.

It would more than hold a candle, especially since it was harder to dribble back then due to: facing far better defenders, playing with rules that favored rough tackles, and with worse equipment (boots, balls, pitch)

 

[Morty_]

Never made much sense to me to compare players from different positions.
Who is better, brazilian Ronaldo or Zidane? Well, if i could take one of the two on my team im thinking Ronaldo, but they are different players, different roles in the teams.

Comparing Zidane, to say, Xavi or Iniesta makes much more sense, Iniesta in particular is a comparison i really like.

Now, someone mentioned Zidane being better than both at the NT level, well, probably, but both Xavi and Iniesta put in lots of great performances during their winning runs, Iniesta being match winner in 2 out of 3 finals, if i recall, incredible big-game player(much like Zidane).

 

[Bogdannn]

Surely Ronaldo 102 international goals, was hugely inflated due to him playing for far and away best international team in Europe then. Whereas L.Ronaldo 62 international goal is limited by the fact that he didn't have good enough teammates and national team to back him up, should he played for Portugal he would have similar numbers.
Ok forget about stats, and lets continue to talk about 2 years peak performance only, and forget about the rest too, as thats everything which matters in football.

As Nasir already said, sarcasm doesn't mean you are right.
More than half of CR7 and Messi's goals came in friendlies. And even from those scored in official matches, a significant number is against weak teams. CR7 scored many goals against the likes of Luxembourg, Andorra and Faroe Islands.
Plus, overall, Messi and CR7 have played far more games than R9 and ZZ.

We can agree that neither of them play for teams anywhere as good as the ones you mentioned which is the truth. Both have done their fair share of carrying their international teams at various points. Which again is something neither R9 or Zidane had to do at any point. Anyway CR7 has won the euros with an OK at best Portugal team which is as good as winning the world Cup with stacked Brazilian and French teams.

Are you for real or are you just trolling ?!? Saying that R9 never carried Brazil ?!?? Go watch his games in the Copa America 97 and 99 and in the 98 and 02 World Cup. R9 had way more big moments than Messi and CR7 combined, neither of which has even managed to score a goal in the KO stage of the World Cup.
When they ain't playing for stacked superclubs, their stats dip bigtime.

Neither Messi or c Ronaldo played in internacional teams anywhere near the standard that Zidane's France and Lronaldo brazil its not even a comparison

From 2010 to around 2016, Messi had a brilliant Argentina squad at his disposal, just as good as the Brazil squad prime R9 had and almost as good as ZZ's France.
Overall, the edge that R9 and ZZ's national teams had over Messi and CR7's is way smaller than the edge Messi and CR7's club teams had over R9 and ZZ's club teams.

Sure I do agree the stats of Messi/Ronaldo could be somewhat inflated, but not by that much

Wrong, they are inflated by a huge margin, they'd have half the stats had they played for an average team. Put them in the Napoli and Inter teams Maradona and R9 transferred too, and they'd score 20 goals a season at best.

Otherwise everyone else playing under same team should have inflated stats too, but it didn't seem to be the case.

Were are comparing them against other ATGs here, not against their teammates. Put R9, Maradona, Pele, Van Basten, Baggio etc in the superclubs Messi and CR7 have played for, and they'd match or even exceed their stats.

R9 is probably my fave player of all time and all these what ifs.. etc.. matter not a shite, CR7 had a higher peak, has a longer and more consistent career more trophies and is a better footballer. R9 was amazing but was never even at his best near CR7 numbers.

CR7 has indeed had a better career, but his peak is not higher than that or R9. And CR7 only has those numbers cause he has played in a weaker era for a superclub. R9 could easily match his stats if they were to swap eras.

......but as you say, CR7 was a better player, no matter how you judge it. Doesn’t diminish R9, as he’s one of the best players to have played the game, and none more explosive in those first couple of years.

No, CR7 is not a better player, not by any means.

Exactly dude, people act like just because you say "Hey your fave player, player x wasn't as good as the two best footballers of all time" its some kind of slander. R9 is still and always will be a legend, he'll just never be a Messi, Pele, CR7 level legend.

R9 has more goals at a WC than Messi and CR7 combined, he already is just as big a legend. Their inflated stats won't change that.

Right, because every player who dribbled suffered broken legs back in the late 90s? No they didn't, in the same way you don't see any other players in the modern era take on 4-5 players like Messi did in his prime.

Many ATGs had horrible injuries.
- Maradona had his anckle broken aged 23 when he was at Barcelona. He was getting constant injections to bumb the pain so he could play when he was at Napoli. His ankle was swollen and twice as huge in the 90 WC.
- Baggio suffered his first knee injury aged 18. In his first two seasons at Fiorentina he managed only five Serie A appearances.
In total, he had six operations on his knees, four on the right and two on the left. After one injury, they had to drill a hole in his tibia to anchor the tendon, which had been lacerated. He couldn’t take anti-inflammatories because he was allergic. In total, they used 220 internal stitches to re-attach the ligaments in his right knee.
He was not fully fit for more than three or four games a season. Just like Maradona, he had to take painkillers constantly so he could be able to play.
- I''m not gonna go into much details about R9's knee injuries, cause most already know about that. But there's no denying that he was never the same after that. At his peak, he was able to run the 100 metres in 10.2/ 10.3 seconds.
- Del Piero was also never the same after his injuries. He ruptured the anterior and posterior ligaments in his left knee in 98 and he was out for the remainder of the season. He flew to the US for surgery and faced nine months of rehab.

You're the same guy who said Messi isn't as talented as Ronaldinho because you've never seen him do an elastico then claimed you used to a professional footballer. Forgive me if I struggle to take you seriously.

I was a pro footballer, just not in a top league like Premier League, Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga etc. I simply didn't give my entire name here cause I want to retain a bit of privacy.
And I said that for me the main criteria for judging talent is ball ability, hence why I see R10 as being more talented. I just gave the elastico as an example of a ball skill that Messi can't do.

 

[Krakenzero]

Interesting read, in my opinion R9 > CR7. My case in a nutshell here:

1. The most important achievement in world football is the World Cup. Not the UCL. Posters that demerit the WC in favor of the UCL contradict themselves when they compare players to the all-time greats like Pelé and Maradona (both WC winners with no UCL), not Di Stefano or Gento (both very respected but usually out of the GOAT debate). They also say that winning a 7 match tournament is easier, therefore ignoring that the current greatests of this time have failed to do so 4 times in a row.

2. Amounts of trophies are not a good tie breaker since only a handful of club and NT international tournaments are actually relevant and could ve considered (WC, UCL, Euro or Copa América are, PL or Brasileirao aren't). Without R9's WC, this would be the deciding factor, and is probably the best argument for CR7.

3. Individual trophies mean very little in team sports, as much as team competitions don't matter much in individual sports like tennis for example.

4. Stats are fantastic for comparing players of similar eras, but it gets difficult and subjective to compare between eras. That said, their stats are pretty similar (0,6-0,7 in clubs and NT).

 

[Zehner]

R9 suffered his knee injury at the age of 23 years old.

Here's a selection of Messi games before that age;








Find me 6 games of Ronaldo dribbling players like Messi is here and I'll find you another 10 of Messi.

That's very hard primarily because those were different times in terms of football coverage. You'll find a compilation of Messi's highlights for pretty much every game he played, the same isn't true for R9. I posted you two parts of one 30 minute video below which is my favourite one of R9. I'm not really arguing against Messi by any means, he's maybe the best there's ever been and my favorite player to watch since his break through. I've watched countless videos of his and if I miss a game I usually watch his individual highlights. But R9 showed some of the most impressive pieces of footwork I've seen and his shoulder drops, step overs and nutmegs are the stuff of legend. And he combined this with explosiveness, strength and top speed clearly superior to Messi's. You can "catch" Messi once he beat you, you can't catch R9. It's like trying to catch someone on a motor bike. I'm honestly interested if your opinion changes at least a bit after watching the videos below. Some of this footage looks like highlights of Pele, only that Ronaldo doesn't play against at least partly semi professionals in the early days of football but during the 90s, probably the most defensive minded period of football ever.

Sure I do agree the stats of Messi/Ronaldo could be somewhat inflated, but not by that much. Otherwise everyone else playing under same team should have inflated stats too, but it didn't seem to be the case. But I do think you have tried to understate Mess/Ronaldo numbers abit in order to prove your point on L.Ronaldo. In general, I agree L.Ronaldo was one of best football talent ever though, I think talent-wise he is not less than Messi, and more than Cristiano, just that his 2 years peak has been overstated abit too much here.

I mean, the stats for their national teams are the best example for what I mean, especially in Cristiano's case. They don't look as good as their club records and not better than R9's although the average quality of the teams they played, at least regarding Portugal, is far worse than those in the league and international competitions.

See, that's the issue with goal stats, they always let you done at some point because there are far too many extern influences. That's why I think you should judge a player based on what you see, not on what you read. Saying that their numbers are inflated doesn't take anything away from Messi and CR7 for me. They're great players regardless of their goal records - the latter are the side products of great players, not vice versa.

 

[Bogdannn]

Convenient. I didn’t actually ask for video links by the way

youtube.com/watch?v=vlHoR2O3bJg&t=1765s
youtube.com/watch?v=PDqqIUOYRV4&t=35s

According to who? Certainly not the dictionary

No dictionary defines what being the best and being the greatest means.

if you think Zidane wasn’t effective to a team, you don’t understand football, I’m very sorry to say

Nobody said he wasn't effective al all, my point is there are many others more effective. ZZ played his whole career as a true no. 10, but he has a pitiable goal+assist+chances created / game ratio that doesn't compare his contemporaries, who all put up far superior contributions to their teams in all of goals, assists, actual playmaking, be it from the center or from the wing.
And bare in mind that, just like you, when assessing stats, I take context into consideration (era in which a player evolved, team he played for, quality of teammates and opposition, rules he played by, equipment quality, etc).
To put numbers to a single example, which I selected because of the similar amount of games:

Zidane
played 231 times in 5 seasons for Real Madrid, always as an AM
scored 49 goals, including 9 in the CL/Supercup
made 51 assists, including 10 in the CL/Supercup
played 108 times for France though his career, with 31 goals (including penalties) and 29 assists

Rivaldo
played 235 times in 5 seasons for Barcelona, as an LW (which he disliked) and as an AM
scored 130 goals, including 31 in the CL/Supercup
made 50 assists, including 6 in the CL/Supercup
played 79 times for Brazil, with 37 goals and 18 assists, not a penalty-taker

Yet somehow, highlights-based revisionism twists ZZ into somehow a better, more productive, more efficient, more legendary player than Rivaldo - a player with 80 more goals than ZZ in a similar time-frame, playing in the same position.

Which Juventus fans? Where’s your evidence? This is a bit of a problem for you, substituting your own opinion for fact.

I'm not substituting my opinion for anything. Before his injury in 98, the vast majority of Juve fans saw Del Piero as the far superior player. I actually went to some of those matches and saw them both play live. Plus I spoke to many die hard Juve fans, I'm not making this stuff up.

Why is it good enough? He got to a WC semi final with a very good Portugal team and lost narrowly to....a France team led by the best player of that tournament, a certain Zinedine Zidane. And if you think a 21 year old Ronaldo was too young to have an impact on a World Cup, let me tell you a story about a 17 year old kid called Edson Arantes do Nascimento.....

It is good enough cause "the difference by which CR7's club career is better than that of ZZ" is way bigger than "the difference by which ZZ's international career is better than CR7's international career.", if that makes sense.
And ZZ was not the best player of the 2006 WC, one game against Brazil does no change that. He simply won that award as a consolation prize, similar to Messi in 2014.

Nonsense, Platini played in the 80s, not 1910. Many people who voted in those polls would have seen him play. He scored more goals, that’s it. He was not a better passer or playmaker than Zidane IMO

He was a far better passer than ZZ, and his stats attest to that. He also created far more chances and was a way better goalscorer.

Zidane was 2 times world player of the year (and finished 3rd once) when he played for Juventus and now Del Piero, who finished sixth once and was never again in the top 10, was better. Hilarious.

I was talking prime vs prime, before Del Piero's injury. It's only logical he never got to that level again.

I won’t even bother addressing your nonsense about French defenders being more important to the national team than Zidane..

France conceded only 2 goals in the 1998 WC, and they conceded only 3 goals in 2006. In both events, ZZ had only one great game, against Brazil.
In 98, he was red carded after stamping on a player from Saudi Arabia.
France played two games without ZZ, one was against Paraguay and the other was against Denmark. France won both of those games.
Basically France with or without Zidane achieved virtually identical results: 3 goals scored and 1 goal conceded in the 2 games that Zidane did not play; 2 goals scored and 1 goal conceded in the 2 games that Zidane did play.
France also won against Italy and against Croatia, ZZ did nothing in those games either. Apart from the final, he had no great games in 98.

It’s obvious you have some kind of agenda, I’m not sure what it is. Maybe you don’t like French Algerians, I don’t know, haha

I don't have any agenda, I'm just pointing out how overrated he is.
ZZ is between top 20 and top 30 all time, no better than that.
And btw, I agree with many of the points you make, just not about ZZ.

Pogba is definitely a talisman in France WC winning squad, so the comparison is perfectly valid.

Pogba is simply a member of a winning squad, so no, the comparison is not valid. He did not carry France or produce an incredible event the way Pele, Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, R11, Baggio, R9 - have done.

Stats is not the only metric I use here to compare players career. I don’t know why you draw that conclusion so prematurely (regarding Messi vs Ronaldo). Basically I gave indepth comparison of the following matrix to give a holistic view of players career, namely: Major trophies (WC, Euro/Copa, CL), Individual awards/honors (Ballon D’or), total no. of trophies, individual stats/records (goals/assist). This is as complete as you can get when accessing a players career.

Stats is a stupid metric to compare players from different eras that have played with different teams in terms of quality, different opposition, pitches, equipment and at times, even rules.
By this stupid metric, Lukaku is better than Van Basten, which anyone with a brain can tell you it's not true.

Re the total trophies, you have to understand that Muller didn’t play for financially doped up superclubs. Messi and Ronaldo are much less successful when they are not playing with some of the most expensively assembled squads in history, or the products of multi-million euro (€) academies that steal players from all around the world. Bayern were not a majorly successful club in the days before the Muller/Beckenbauer era (as an astute poster on this board pointed out to me). Obviously I’m not saying Muller was a better all round player, but it’s hilarious that you can just dismiss his successful career based on nothing more than recency bias.

This I completely agree with.

 

[MalcolmTucker]

That's very hard primarily because those were different times in terms of football coverage. You'll find a compilation of Messi's highlights for pretty much every game he played, the same isn't true for R9. I posted you two parts of one 30 minute video below which is my favourite one of R9. I'm not really arguing against Messi by any means, he's maybe the best there's ever been and my favorite player to watch since his break through. I've watched countless videos of his and if I miss a game I usually watch his individual highlights. But R9 showed some of the most impressive pieces of footwork I've seen and his shoulder drops, step overs and nutmegs are the stuff of legend. And he combined this with explosiveness, strength and top speed clearly superior to Messi's. You can "catch" Messi once he beat you, you can't catch R9. It's like trying to catch someone on a motor bike. I'm honestly interested if your opinion changes at least a bit after watching the videos below. Some of this footage looks like highlights of Pele, only that Ronaldo doesn't play against at least partly semi professionals in the early days of football but during the 90s, probably the most defensive minded period of football ever.

I've watched those videos and many like it. Hell, when I was a kid I used to edit football compilations of Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and CR7 as a hobby

R9 is one of my favourite footballers and his highlights are unreal, but with the proliferation of match highlights on youtube, I've revisited some of his most iconic games; the final against Lazio, the insane game against Valencia and lots his time in Barcelona and Inter. The reason I said I want you to find 5 videos of Ronaldo having analogous matches showcasing his dribbling is because I could only find a couple myself. There are many many match highlights of R9's early career, literally hundreds on this channel alone, so it won't be too difficult if what you say is true. Fact is, I've looked back at his games and it's not the case - looking at a compilation isn't the same.

I was a pro footballer, just not in a top league like Premier League, Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga etc. I simply didn't give my entire name here cause I want to retain a bit of privacy.
And I said that for me the main criteria for judging talent is ball ability, hence why I see R10 as being more talented. I just gave the elastico as an example of a ball skill that Messi can't do.

So obviously a lie, there's no way someone who played professional football can think the elastico is actually difficult to do. Any professional footballer can do it - you can go down to a 5-a-side league on any given weekday and see overweight show-offs and weed smoking kids pulling off perfect elasticos yet you really think Messi, arguably the best footballer of all time can't? I'd be surprised if you've ever kicked a ball in your life tbh

Anyway he does one here - not that it proves anything

 

[Bogdannn]

So obviously a lie, there's no way someone who played professional football can think the elastico is actually difficult to do. Any professional footballer can do it - you can go down to a 5-a-side league on any given weekday and see overweight show-offs and weed smoking kids pulling off perfect elasticos yet you really think Messi, arguably the best footballer of all time can't? I'd be surprised if you've ever kicked a ball in your life tbh

First of all, Messi is not the best footballer of all times. At least not until he proves himself at international level, which he has failed to do over the past 15 years.
Second of all, whether the elastico is easy to do or not , Messi hasn't done it.

Anyway he does one here - not that it proves anything.........

That's not an elastico.