Ronaldo vs Ronaldo

Pocho said:
Someone up here mentioned that Messi had a brilliant NT between 2010 and 2016. I laughed my fking lungs out
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You laughing won't change that fact.
Messi had great teammates/team in that time span. Argentina was stacked with world class players, certainly better than what Maradona had in 86, yet he couldn't deliver.

Shamana said:
I'd take Messi's 91 goal season over anyones. Still doesn't mean I don't consider R9 in his prime up there with the very best.
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Messi wouldn't have gotten 91 goals in the 90s Serie A.
He wouldn't have a star packed team at his disposal, he'd be facing better defenders, on worse pitches, equipment, with worse nutrition, worse medical facilities, and just as important, without protection from the rules/referees.
Put R9 in the 2010-2012 Barca team and he'd score over 100 goals.

giorno said:
2014 word cup final, 2015 copa america final, 2016 copa america final

That wasn't a brilliant team???? In what world???

And Messi did have an absolutely stacked NT talent-wise throughout his career. Bad choices of managers, injuries and a lack of strong mentality were their downfall, but it's not like Messi wasn't guilty of poor performances either
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Well said.
 
Bogdannn said:
You laughing won't change that fact.
Messi had great teammates/team in that time span. Argentina was stacked with world class players, certainly better than what Maradona had in 86, yet he couldn't deliver.


Messi wouldn't have gotten 91 goals in the 90s Serie A.
He wouldn't have a star packed team at his disposal, he'd be facing better defenders, on worse pitches, equipment, with worse nutrition, worse medical facilities, and just as important, without protection from the rules/referees.
Put R9 in the 2010-2012 Barca team and he'd score over 100 goals.


Well said.
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All speculation. I don't doubt that R9 had the natural talent that was as good as the best ever, but we never saw the entire fulfillment of his potential. And in Messi's 91 goal season, he didn't just score goals, he was still the worlds best dribbler, had outstanding vision and 10/10 passing and I think 25 assists. But no, I don't think he would have got 91 goals playing for Inter in the 90's Seria A. No one would. Messi still managed to bag 51 goals and 20 assists the last time he won the Ballon D'or without having his much famed supporting cast.
 
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giorno said:
2014 word cup final, 2015 copa america final, 2016 copa america final

That wasn't a brilliant team???? In what world???

And Messi did have an absolutely stacked NT talent-wise throughout his career. Bad choices of managers, injuries and a lack of strong mentality were their downfall, but it's not like Messi wasn't guilty of poor performances either
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Romero
Zabaleta, Demichelis, Garay, Rojo
Biglia-- Mascherano, Perez
Messi---Higuain--- Lavezzi

That´s against Germany 2014

Argentina: Sergio Romero; Pablo Zabaleta, Ezequiel Garay, Nicolás Otamendi, Marcos Rojo; Lucas Biglia, Javir Mascherano, Lionel Messi, Javier Pastore; Sergio Agüero, Ángel Di María. DT: Gerardo Martino

That´s against Chile 2015 where Argentina lost in the penalty shootout

Those were great teams? aha
 
Pocho said:
Romero
Zabaleta, Demichelis, Garay, Rojo
Biglia-- Mascherano, Perez
Messi---Higuain--- Lavezzi

That´s against Germany 2014

Argentina: Sergio Romero; Pablo Zabaleta, Ezequiel Garay, Nicolás Otamendi, Marcos Rojo; Lucas Biglia, Javir Mascherano, Lionel Messi, Javier Pastore; Sergio Agüero, Ángel Di María. DT: Gerardo Martino

That´s against Chile 2015 where Argentina lost in the penalty shootout

Those were great teams? aha
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They made the final. How were they not great sides? Di Maria and Aguero were injured in 2014 too

They absolutely pissed the Copa in both '15 and '16 until the final as well
 
giorno said:
They made the final. How were they not great sides? Di Maria and Aguero were injured in 2014 too

They absolutely pissed the Copa in both '15 and '16 until the final as well
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nobody who knows something about this game would claim that those teams were brilliant, I tend to say that without Messi they wouldn´t even get pas qualifiyng
 
there was another thread about the best players of all time or was it about the most talented, I can't remember atm, in any case it was frequently mentioned how both Messi and Cristiano benefit from playing in modern era for various reasons but what is never mentioned is how much they actually take from each other. as this is a thread about R9 vs Cristiano, I'll just add that he lost 5 La Liga titles directly to Barca/Messi as well as 3 or 4 pichichi trophies. he would also likely have 9 or 10 Ballon d'Or awards by now if it wasn't for Messi.

the simple fact is, Cristiano shared the stage with even more naturally talented player. which means, whatever he does, there's another one doing the same so his numbers won't be something unheard of even in his own time, let alone when we take the whole football history into account. it would be interesting to see the responses in this thread if Messi was born 20 years later, or even better; if R9 was the one who shared the stage with Messi and was left completely in his shadow, while Cristiano was the one to come later, when there wasn't Messi to be compared with. let's not forget that Messi's last season, the season when he was on top of goals/assist table in La Liga was actually considered underwhelming compared to his peak and a sign of decline. R9 never had to compete with player comparable even to "declined" Messi, let alone peak Messi. just to put things into perspective.
 
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Pop into the Ronaldo v Ronaldo thread, and it's the usuals all going on about Messi.
 
Pocho said:
nobody who knows something about this game would claim that those teams were brilliant, I tend to say that without Messi they wouldn´t even get pas qualifiyng
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They.made.the.world.cup.final. They were literally the second best NT in the world. They were just one huge chance missed by Higuain from winning the world cup
 
giorno said:
They.made.the.world.cup.final. They were literally the second best NT in the world. They were just one huge chance missed by Higuain from winning the world cup
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that´s because they had Messi, not because of Biglias, Garays, Lavezzis, Zabbs, Rojos, etc etc
 
Pocho said:
that´s because they had Messi, not because of Biglias, Garays, Lavezzis, Zabbs, Rojos, etc etc
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It's because they were a great side. Messi did feck all from the QF on in the WC. And in both copas he was Pele in '70, until the final. Where Chile shut them down, even down a man in '16
 
giorno said:
It's because they were a great side. Messi did feck all from the QF on in the WC. And in both copas he was Pele in '70, until the final. Where Chile shut them down, even down a man in '16
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Messi is not Ronaldo, he doesn´t need to score to be the best man on the pitch, but this is a thread about Ronaldo, I just pointed out that it was bollocks that Messi had a brilliant team and Maradona had a poor side around him.
 
Shamana said:
All speculation. I don't doubt that R9 had the natural talent that was as good as the best ever, but we never saw the entire fulfillment of his potential. And in Messi's 91 goal season, he didn't just score goals, he was still the worlds best dribbler, had outstanding vision and 10/10 passing and I think 25 assists. But no, I don't think he would have got 91 goals playing for Inter in the 90's Seria A. No one would. Messi still managed to bag 51 goals and 20 assists the last time he won the Ballon D'or without having his much famed supporting cast.
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Good point, but it's worth mentioning that even though Barcelona is no longer as strong as it used to be, it' still way stronger than the average La Liga squad, a league that is not exactly famous for it's defending.

Bole Top said:
the simple fact is, Cristiano shared the stage with even more naturally talented player. ......
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That's highly debatable. For me, R9, R10, Pele and Maradona are more talented than Messi.

Bole Top said:
........it would be interesting to see the responses in this thread if Messi was born 20 years later, or even better; if R9 was the one who shared the stage with Messi and was left completely in his shadow........
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You're assuming Messi would be in R9's shadow, IMO if R9 played in this era, it would be Messi who would be in his shadow.

Bole Top said:
......R9 never had to compete with player comparable even to "declined" Messi, let alone peak Messi. just to put things into perspective......
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You keep mentioning stats as if they are the "end all, be all". Most ATGs from the past would get similar stats with Messi and CR7 if they were to play in this era for the superclubs Messi and CR7 have played for, it's way easier to score nowadays.
As for competition, R9 had to compete with Baggio, Del Piero, Rivaldo, Figo, Zidane, Bergkamp, Batistuta etc. So it's not like he lacked top opposition.

Pocho said:
Messi is not Ronaldo, he doesn´t need to score to be the best man on the pitch, but this is a thread about Ronaldo, I just pointed out that it was bollocks that Messi had a brilliant team and Maradona had a poor side around him.
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That's fact, not bollocks. Messi's Argentina had great players, stop making excuses for his failures.
 
Bogdannn said:
Good point, but it's worth mentioning that even though Barcelona is no longer as strong as it used to be, it' still way stronger than the average La Liga squad, a league that is not exactly famous for it's defending.


That's highly debatable. For me, R9, R10, Pele and Maradona are more talented than Messi.




You're assuming Messi would be in R9's shadow, IMO if R9 played in this era, it would be Messi who would be in his shadow.


You keep mentioning stats as if they are the "end all, be all". Most ATGs from the past would get similar stats with Messi and CR7 if they were to play in this era for the superclubs Messi and CR7 have played for, it's way easier to score nowadays.
As for competition, R9 had to compete with Baggio, Del Piero, Rivaldo, Figo, Zidane, Bergkamp, Batistuta etc. So it's not like he lacked top opposition.


That's fact, not bollocks. Messi's Argentina had great players, stop making excuses for his failures.
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So Maradona failed in 82, 90, 94 and all the Copas América, and in Barcelona, etc etc
 
Pocho said:
So Maradona failed in 82, 90, 94 and all the Copas América, and in Barcelona, etc etc
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Regarding Maradona's play with Argentina, one doesn't need to win every event he plays in. I also never said Messi should have won every single Copa America and World Cup he played in, I said he should have won it at least once given how many chances he had and given that he had a good team.
Maradona did that with a brilliant performance in 86, and he also helped his team get to the final in 90, despite playing with a injured swollen ankle the entire event.
And he cannot be faulted for his time at Barcelona, cause he never got to play an entire season due to a bout of hepatitis and his ankle being broken by a Bilbao player with a brutal tackle.
 
Pocho said:
nobody who knows something about this game would claim that those teams were brilliant, I tend to say that without Messi they wouldn´t even get pas qualifiyng
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Yeah I don't think they were brilliant either. I think Messi helped drag them to multiple finals and the entire Argentina team (including him) underperformed/had some back luck which resulted in them failing at the final stage.

But those Argentina teams weren't brilliant. Could they have won? Yes. Could Messi have had an otherworldly performance in some of those finals to win those finals? Perhaps. But they weren't prohibitive favourites for any of the tournaments in which they reached the finals.
 
Bogdannn said:
Regarding Maradona's play with Argentina, one doesn't need to win every event he plays in. I also never said Messi should have won every single Copa America and World Cup he played in, I said he should have won it at least once given how many chances he had and given that he had a good team.
Maradona did that with a brilliant performance in 86, and he also helped his team get to the final in 90, despite playing with a injured swollen ankle the entire event.
And he cannot be faulted for his time at Barcelona, cause he never got to play an entire season due to a bout of hepatitis and his ankle being broken by a Bilbao player with a brutal tackle.
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The margins are thin, though. If Higuain doesn't miss 2 sitters in back to back years, then Messi has a world cup and a Copa. On the other hand, Burrocaga came up big in the 86 final and scored the winning goal.

It isn't fair to penalize players for their teammates profligacy.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Yeah I don't think they were brilliant either. I think Messi helped drag them to multiple finals and the entire Argentina team (including him) underperformed/had some back luck which resulted in them failing at the final stage.

But those Argentina teams weren't brilliant. Could they have won? Yes. Could Messi have had an otherworldly performance in some of those finals to win those finals? Perhaps. But they weren't prohibitive favourites for any of the tournaments in which they reached the finals.
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That would be the World Cup where he didn't score a single knockout stage goal and Argentina basically defended their way to the final?

or the Copa where they trashed Chile in the group stage WITHOUT Messi yet lost in the final with him sulking around and quiting the national team afterwards?
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
The margins are thin, though. If Higuain doesn't miss 2 sitters in back to back years, then Messi has a world cup and a Copa. On the other hand, Burrocaga came up big in the 86 final and scored the winning goal.

It isn't fair to penalize players for their teammates profligacy.
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If Ovebro wasn't a blind man pretending to be a referee during the Scandal of Stamford Bridge, they don't even make the 2009 CL final.
 
Cal? said:
That would be the World Cup where he didn't score a single knockout stage goal and Argentina basically defended their way to the final?

or the Copa where they trashed Chile in the group stage WITHOUT Messi yet lost in the final with him sulking around and quiting the national team afterwards?
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That would be the world cup in which he was player of the tournament and dragged his team to the final and lost when his striker missed a sitter.

Meanwhile, your hero never could manage to perform semi decently in any of his 4 world cups.
 
Cal? said:
If Ovebro wasn't a blind man pretending to be a referee during the Scandal of Stamford Bridge, they don't even make the 2009 CL final.
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And if Madrid weren't gifted offside goals, Madrid don't win the 2018 UCL. What does that have to do with my post?
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
That would be the world cup in which he was player of the tournament and dragged his team to the final and lost when his striker missed a sitter.

Meanwhile, your hero never could manage to perform semi decently in any of his 4 world cups.
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Did you forget Portugal making it to the SF in 2006? Much bigger achievement than Argentina making a final.

Player of the tournmanet? :lol: He dragged his team to the final? The Argentina side who didn't concede a single goal and only scored 2 goals (neither by him) in the knockout stage until extra time in the final?

He must be the best defender in history.
 
Cal? said:
Did you forget Portugal making it to the SF in 2006? Much bigger achievement than Argentina making a final.

Player of the tournmanet? :lol: He dragged his team to the final? The Argentina side who didn't concede a single goal in the knockout stage until extra time in the final?

He must be the best defender in history.
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Sure thing pal. Making the semi finals when you're not the best performer in that team is better than winning player of the tournament while dragging a weaker team than the 2006 Portugal team, to the final.

Talk about delusion.
 
Wow the debate of who was more shite at World Cups
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
Sure thing pal. Making the semi finals when you're not the best performer in that team is better than winning player of the tournament while dragging a weaker team than the 2006 Portugal team, to the final.

Talk about delusion.
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Player of the tournament? Even Messi himself was embarassed :lol:

Do explain to us how Messi was responsible for Argentina not conceeding a single goal till ET in the final.
 
Cal? said:
Player of the tournament? Even Messi himself was embarassed :lol:

Do explain to us how Messi was responsible for Argentina not conceeding a single goal till ET in the final.
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Melting down about it doesn't change the fact that he was player of the tournament and that he performed better there than Ronaldo did in any world cup.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
The margins are thin, though. If Higuain doesn't miss 2 sitters in back to back years, then Messi has a world cup and a Copa. On the other hand, Burrocaga came up big in the 86 final and scored the winning goal.

It isn't fair to penalize players for their teammates profligacy.
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I'm not penalizing Messi for Higuain missing a chance in the 2014 final, I'm penalizing him for doing absolutely nothing after the group stage, apart from an assist against Switzerland. He was close to invisible in the KO stage and has never even managed to score a single goal in his entire career at the KO stage in 4 World Cups. That definitely says something.


Cal? said:
Player of the tournament? Even Messi himself was embarassed :lol:

Do explain to us how Messi was responsible for Argentina not conceeding a single goal till ET in the final.
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I agree
 
Bogdannn said:
I'm not penalizing Messi for Higuain missing a chance in the 2014 final, I'm penalizing him for doing absolutely nothing after the group stage, apart from an assist against Switzerland. He was close to invisible in the KO stage and has never even managed to score a single goal in his entire career at the KO stage in 4 World Cups. That definitely says something.
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He isn't as good as Maradona on the international stage.
 
Bogdannn said:
I'm not penalizing Messi for Higuain missing a chance in the 2014 final, I'm penalizing him for doing absolutely nothing after the group stage, apart from an assist against Switzerland. He was close to invisible in the KO stage and has never even managed to score a single goal in his entire career at the KO stage in 4 World Cups. That definitely says something.



I agree
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Thank you.

Very difficult to reason with the Messi brigade, who like to hijack every thread and make it about him. :rolleyes:
 
Bogdannn said:
I'm not penalizing Messi for Higuain missing a chance in the 2014 final, I'm penalizing him for doing absolutely nothing after the group stage, apart from an assist against Switzerland. He was close to invisible in the KO stage and has never even managed to score a single goal in his entire career at the KO stage in 4 World Cups. That definitely says something.



I agree
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unlike Ronaldo he doesn´t need to score to be the better player in the pitch
 
Pocho said:
unlike Ronaldo he doesn´t need to score to be the better player in the pitch
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He's a much better player than Ronaldo so that's a given. But bogdann is comparing him with Maradona and is pointing out that his 2014 doesn't compare with Maradona's 86. To be fair, when we are discussing what was arguably the greatest world cup performance ever, nothing is going to live up to it. I'm not falling short of that standard deserves criticism.
 
Ladron de redcafe said:
He's a much better player than Ronaldo so that's a given. But bogdann is comparing him with Maradona and is pointing out that his 2014 doesn't compare with Maradona's 86. To be fair, when we are discussing what was arguably the greatest world cup performance ever, nothing is going to live up to it. I'm not falling short of that standard deserves criticism.
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Maradona was a beast in that WC, but when he needed his mates they were there for him, like Pasculli against Uruguay and Burruchaga, Valdano and Brown vs Germany.
 
Pocho said:
Maradona was a beast in that WC, but when he needed his mates they were there for him, like Pasculli against Uruguay and Burruchaga, Valdano and Brown vs Germany.
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And I made the same point about Burruchaga and Higuain being the difference between the world up and nothing. And that's why the "Messi didn't win the world cup" argument is risible, in my opinion.

Having said that, we could still compare their overall performances at those tournaments and even had Higuain not blown his sitter, Maradona still had the better tournament overall. But I agree with you. Their respective teammates were the difference in team success.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Zidane has won

-the World Cup
-The Champions League
-The Ballon D’Or

there are only 8 men in history who have won those 3 three things, and a couple of those won the WC or CL basically as squad players

In addition to that, he has:

-A World Cup Golden Ball
-Has scored 3 goals in two WC finals (a record matched only by Pele; Hurst also scored 3 but in one game)
-Has scored in the champions league final (very few players have scored in both the WC final and the CL final. 5, to be exact)

Yet people on here are calling him a bum. The mind boggles.....
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It’s normal - time passes and people forget. People forget he did it in different leagues, the scored big goals and generally also played in a position where you get less plaudits.

For me he pretty much had everything. Fast, strong, technical, combative, dribbling, both footed, passing range was excellent, scored goals and gave assists. AND was fecking entertaining to watch - a proper flair player but who didn’t play as an out and out attacker.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Number of assists does not measure level of creativity or playmaking ability, I’ve addressed this point before.
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It depends on your role in team. The closer you play to the goal, the easier it is the pass to another for a tap in.
 
Bogdannn said:
Nobody said he didn't deserve any award he ever got. But he certainly didn't deserve the 1998 Ballon D'or and the 2006 Fifa Golden Ball.
Not to mention that he failed to win the league in his last 3 seasons with Juventus. Or that he only managed to win the league once with Real Madrid.

Zidane was a great player, for sure, but to put him in top 5s or top 10s in the history of football just reeks of revisionism based on idolized yet sparse highlights. Implying a player as inconsistent, ineffective, with relatively low end product and devoid of tactical finesse as Zidane is anywhere close to being a Top 10 player of all time is a crime to the history of football. In reality, he's barely top 20, if that.
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:lol:so clueless
 
Lord SInister said:
tbf Zidane is not in my top all time 10 either.
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No problems with that, there's been a lot of amazing footballers over the years. Although truth be told alot people who don't have him in their top 10 haven't seen the much of the players they have in there. All a bit strange. I'll put it like this, if you were to watch Euro 2000 and compare it with the tournaments the other all time greats had, he'd stack up well against most if not all of them.

My issue with the poster is that his takes are comical. He goes on to say Zidane was devoid of tactical finesse and was ineffective, and his historical ranking is based on sparse but idolized highlights. All ludicrous imo. Btw the same poster claims him to be inferior to Del Piero, Henry and Nedved.
 
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