I think he would be an entrance against city if we were behind in the 80th min for Herrera, Rooney dropping to midfield.
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What's wrong with his short passing game?
Those are completely different kind of players, much more alike RVP than Rooney.
Is it really that strange? I thought Ferguson bought RVP to play in front of Rooney.
We're only 8 months into an ambitious 3 year rebuild, the team is finally doing well now, especially considering the fact that a lot of the fit and in form players are not particularly suited to the style of play. That's gonna change the upcoming transfer windows I presume and the starting line up in would be much closer to ideal and quite different from the current one.
It's not very good, certainly not for the way LvG likes the midfield to play.
No they aren't, RvP has nowhere near the physical attributes or work ethic of Rooney, Benzema and Costa, he's a luxury striker.
Yes it is strange, Fergie had it in for Rooney after the first contract stand-off, he bought RvP and prioritized him as the #9 and started a second rift with Rooney. It's also strange because Rooney is not a CM and RvP will be 32 at the start of next season and is past his best by some way. Doing what you're suggesting would take us backwards not forwards. The only thing we should be doing regarding RvP is seeing which of the Italian and Turkish clubs are going to offer the most for him in the summer.
He hasn't shifted his arse for the right pass all season long.
What's he done to you?His finishing has also been rather suspect at times this season. The amount of times Di Maria played those dinked through balls for him at the start of the year for him to ruin was rather jarring. It's not simply a case of, 'put him in, he'll do damage'.
I would only be happy to see RVP in a Falcao type role, ie. bring him on, when you dont need to score.
We need to win games, so keep playing Rooney up front, as the lone striker.
The main issue is that RVP is slow - his technique is exquisite though.
I think he needs to be sold in the Summer, though.
We need to win games, so keep playing Rooney up front, as the lone striker.
The main issue is that RVP is slow - his technique is exquisite though.
I think he needs to be sold in the Summer, though.
Then he is in trouble because his requirements for the short passing game aren't much different for a centre forward of his kind.
I agree his skills and technique are more refined than Rooney's, Benzema's and Costa's.
That must have been a very long term rift then, because he hardly ever played Rooney up top in all those years.
If RvP is past it another centre forward should be bought. If he's not good enough anymore that doesn't mean Rooney is good enough for that position in a United that is challenging for title's and cups. In 4-4-2 Rooney is the natural second striker, not the most forward one, in 4-3-3 that equals to CM.
Few rumours of him in talks with Fenerbache to link up with national teammates Sneijder and Kuyt.
Sneijder is at Galatassaray
And Kuyt retired from International football, so they are not technically teammates anymore. Also, he's rumoured to go back to Feyenoord at the end of the season.
Well at least we have finally hit the crux of all this, I thought you were just a big RvP fan but now it's clear you just don't want Rooney as the #9, yet the season after Ronnie left he played as the #9 and bagged one of the best totals in PL history, he's exactly where he should be right now, not taking up a spot in midfield.
Keep him as a rotational option. Wilson, RvP and Rooney is enough competition for the lone striker position. I don't think he's finished, his touch has still been great this season, given a rest in the summer and less of a starting role next season and I think he'll regain a lot of sharpness too.
I think RVP is a very good player who has been slightly better than Rooney has ever been, but if he keeps going from injury tot injury, with inconsistent performances inbetween, the end is near. I get the feeling you don't like RvP very much and don't want to give the tiniest bit of credit.
But that's personal, I certainly do like Rooney. But I don't need him to be topscorer to know he's good. I get the feeling most people who prefer Rooney up top see the nr 9 as better than the nr 10 position, like it's a demotion to be moved to midfield. I don't agree at all, I think in general the nr 10 is the more important position and the more influential player in attacking possession based 4-3-3 and I'm sure Van Gaal does to. It's Rooney's best position, what he lacks in refinement he compensates with energy, versatility and vision.
I echoed this again recently in another thread and just had a look at his most recent games and it really does back it up.
Against Burnley he played 3 forward passes in the final third (0 into the area), the rest of his 25 successful passes were either backwards or square and wide. He didn't recieve a single pass within 30 yards of goal.
Against West Ham he played 1 forward pass into the area, the rest of his 20 passes were miles from the box, he received 3 passes in the area.
I really think that a large part of our success recently has been having a striker who doesn't just constantly drop into no mans land to recieve the ball. Rooney gets in behind and gets into dangerous areas in a way that Van Persie just doesn't have the mobility to any more.
I feel that RvP is now a pure poacher. He doesn't really build up unless it's laying it off to the flanks while he joins the attack. Which is why he is so ineffective if he doesn't get the ball in the box at all. Which was the main problem with this team in the middle third of this season. Lack of penetration means RvP hardly touched the ball in the box. He was starved of service. IINM, I remember reading stats that we hardly got the ball into danger areas at that time, despite all our possession.
It would truly be interesting to see with the amount of penetration we are getting now, whether RvP would thrive. He would surely get much more service than he did before. Having said that, I would still prefer LvG to maintain the same first 11, at least until a need for changes arises. We can't afford mistakes at this critical juncture.
It would truly be interesting to see with the amount of penetration we are getting now, whether RvP would thrive. He would surely get much more service than he did before. Having said that, I would still prefer LvG to maintain the same first 11, at least until a need for changes arises. We can't afford mistakes at this critical juncture.
If Messi ever played in a 442 he too woudl be the second striker but in a 433, as we all know, he's best upfront (false 9) if not out wide, but definitely not as CM.
I'm sorry but the second striker and CM skillset is vastly different. Rooney isn't even a #10 like Zidane or Silva who play it short, build up moves and then go for the killer pass or dribble. Rooney's party piece is the long diagonal, the run into the box, and the explosive shot. His control is average and he gets caught in possession, he isn't the most reliable short passer either. At 28ish I don't think he has yet mastered the decision-making in picking the correct pass at the correct time. Also, he can mark one particular player but I haven't seen him do well at collectively pressing or collectively dropping back or defending as part of a unit- all of which CMs need.
If LVG shoehorns him straight back into the starting 11 I'll be very disappointed in him, considering how far we've come. Obviously RVP isn't Andy Carroll, but I think Rooney should be staying up front.
We have people here saying he hasn't moved for passes this season and others saying he's missed countless sitters. It can't be both so which is it?
@Dr. Funkenstein i agree with a lot of what you are saying.
It's worth noting that Rooney's goal against Villa came after he was pushed back into the 'Fellaini role' - which matches with your claim that he scores goals from midfielder positions. Prior to that he was arguably our worst player on the pitch for the second game running.
I believe, along with you, that our improvement had been largely down to LVG's training, and not simply shifting Rooney up top or having RVP nowhere near the team. I have seen nothing from Rooney the last few weeks that makes me believe RVP couldn't do a better job up top.
It's worth noting that Rooney's goal against Villa came after he was pushed back into the 'Fellaini role' - which matches with your claim that he scores goals from midfielder positions. Prior to that he was arguably our worst player on the pitch for the second game running.
I believe, along with you, that our improvement had been largely down to LVG's training, and not simply shifting Rooney up top or having RVP nowhere near the team. I have seen nothing from Rooney the last few weeks that makes me believe RVP couldn't do a better job up top.
It is possible to do both, you know. It's not like the two are mutually exclusive. Even the most lethargic of strikers get chances.
Ocassionally. To read on here you'd think he'd been sat on his arse in front of goal all season missing countless chances per game. As it is he's got 10 goals in 25 games. Not what you expect from Robin Van Persie but in a team playing as poorly as we were it doesn't make him fit for the Travellers yard just yet either.
Come on, be fair. He wasn't the only one passing backward. Have you forgotten how sh*t we were just a few weeks ago; we only just learnt to pass forward against Spurs.
Skip to 5.50 in that video, and look at what Rooney does.
Those stats don't mean much seeing as most of those passes would have been with his back to goal and holding the ball up. That one forward pass against WHU was a delightful through ball to Falcao (And he predictably fecked it up). RVP ran in behind the defense on plenty of occasions at the start of the season, probably even more than Rooney. It was his finishing that let him down rather than his movement, which is generally excellent.
I tend to agree with @Dr. Funkenstein . Rooney is at his best when he's slightly withdrawn. It gets the best out of him and the team while still allowing him to use his creativity and goal scoring instincts. I don't see how Rooney dropping deeper into the Fellaini role and RVP up top is a bad thing.
I don't agree. If you play 4-3-3 with the midfield pointing forward, CM is the position closest to the false nine. Actually, both the man up front and the CM are a bit false in different ways. Ideally the 9 in a strong and static way, and the 10 in a dynamic agile way. Messi would be at his best with a strong centre forward, tall and therefore a big reach, who does a lot of one touch lay offs, and who can turn towards goal with a defender on his back, a bridgehead at the edge of the box. That must be why Guardiola got Ibrahimovic, but overlooked the two weak points of Ibrahimovic: with the ball kept on the grass, his first touch isn't solid nor very precise, and by personality he's not servient. I get the feeling Messi is played as a striker because of his personal goal scoring statistics, which are not only good for his ego, but also very important for his marketing and therefore the money. But he does all right as a striker
When playing CM, his long diagonal could be very useful on the break, and for the run into the box he needs be outside the box first.
I think there's an important role for Van Gaal there, especially the timing, getting in sync collectively. I think it's quite an intelligent player, but I agree he's not the ideal 10. But I do think that most people here don't realize how close a CM in Van Gaal's possesson based attacking 4-3-3 can be to a second striker. Bergkamp has played CM, Litmanen did, Kluivert did (occasionally).
Not only when he's playing from midfield, also the kind of the goals he scored as the striker were from positions a CM could or should get into. The man up front often ends up at near or far post, or close to the goalkeeper, has to move away to the side of the box, ends up with tight angles, has little space to run and often has to pass his man from a standing start, not really situations Rooney is very good at.
Yes, but RVP has also had a few games this season where he didn't do much at all, while Rooney always makes something happen in one way or another, even if he's very poor. So it depends on RVP's form more than Rooney's, but I don't doubt that in a few weeks he will get as much in sync as Rooney.
I have nothing against RvP, I just think he's shot physically and I want a quick, strong and hard working #9, not a luxury player who has the odd silky moment but slows down the team in general and has no pace.
Again not the case, I love a good #10, I just don't think Rooney is a good #10. Could he play as a CM who scores goals like Lampard? Yeah probably, but I'd rather have a CM in there that has a great range of passing and skill and leave Rooney up top to harrass CB's and get goals, the things he is best at.
Rather have him off the bench than Falcao.
Obviously we shouldn't change a winning formula with this current starting eleven.
Obviously we shouldn't change a winning formula with this current starting eleven.
So now he's out?
I think RVP is going to surprise a few people when he gets back.
I would start him on the bench obviously but if he takes his chance I could see him playing himself back into the team.
I have voiced my concern about this before though. I like Rooney up front and I like one up front. So if Rooney is undroppable, we have very little flexibility.
Id like to see Rooney and RVP slug it out for that position. But I guess, if RVP plays well enough to deserve a start, Ill have to content myself with Rooney dropping back into Fellaini's position. Which I am not that keen on.
But as I said, in terms of RVP's form alone and putting the headache it will cause to one side, I think he still has plenty to offer. I cant believe people are writing him off already. A year ago I thought everyone was OTT thinking he was so far ahead of Rooney and we would never have won the league the year before without him. Now its swung too far the other way.
I would start him on the bench obviously but if he takes his chance I could see him playing himself back into the team.
I have voiced my concern about this before though. I like Rooney up front and I like one up front. So if Rooney is undroppable, we have very little flexibility.
Id like to see Rooney and RVP slug it out for that position. But I guess, if RVP plays well enough to deserve a start, Ill have to content myself with Rooney dropping back into Fellaini's position. Which I am not that keen on.
But as I said, in terms of RVP's form alone and putting the headache it will cause to one side, I think he still has plenty to offer. I cant believe people are writing him off already. A year ago I thought everyone was OTT thinking he was so far ahead of Rooney and we would never have won the league the year before without him. Now its swung too far the other way.
I am not sure if this has been posted already. It's a very interesting GIF by the guys from Statsbomb comparing the stats from RvP at Arsenal through his career with us. It gives a nice insight how he has changed (less passing but better percentage etc)
This thread kind of shows how most posters on here don't really think critically when it comes to football. Opinion comes purely from confirmation bias and coincidences. Posters attribute Utds rise in form to Van Persies absence and Rooney's inclusion in the no.9 position yet how does that explain Utds improved midfield performances, passing, team cohesion, defending? How come the team put in one of its best performances this season against Liverpool away when Rooney put in one of his worse displays ever for the club as a striker? Rooney hasn't been particularly great. He's scoring some great goals but he is not putting in amazing performances. Its pretty obvious that Van Gaal has finally gotten the team playing the way he wants them to play and thats a result of hours and hours of hardwork and repetition of his methods on the training field not because Van Persie simply picked up an injury. Thats basically a huge slap on the face to Van Gaal. People also think that Van Gaal would sacrifice his teams performances simply because he's "mates" with Van Persie. Do you really know who Van Gaal is?
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It's easy to explain how the injury to RvP helped us.
Firstly it created space for Rooney upfront. His midfield performances were poor and he is far more useful to us as a forward. His pace and energy were sorely lacking from RvP and Falcao. He is making more and better runs giving our creative players good passing options and creating space for other attackers. A fair number of our recent goals are ones we simply wouldn't have scored without him upfront, neither of RvP or Falcao can run out defenders like he did against Tottenham or press them as against Newcastle and Villa. He brings these qualities in every game, regardless of how good his touch is or if he is shooting well.
In turn this allowed Herrera to get in the team. For my money he's our best midfielder but he wasn't even getting a chance with Rooney having 'privileges' and starting every game in midfield. His energy is excellent and, as with Rooney moving upfront, is another reason for our much improved pressing. His link-up play is also great, especially with Mata and of course he scores goals.
There are other benefits too. The change in formation to 4-3-3 has been huge for us and there was no indication of that happening until after RvP got injured. It was a big blunder of Van Gaal to spend so much of the season insisting on two immobile forwards but not playing wingers to supply them with chances. Now we've got a more mobile player upfront and threats from wide areas too. Mata's performance at Anfield was maybe the best any of our attackers have put in all season and he was playing in a position which we have spent most of the season trying to avoid using.
Firstly it created space for Rooney upfront. His midfield performances were poor and he is far more useful to us as a forward. His pace and energy were sorely lacking from RvP and Falcao. He is making more and better runs giving our creative players good passing options and creating space for other attackers. A fair number of our recent goals are ones we simply wouldn't have scored without him upfront, neither of RvP or Falcao can run out defenders like he did against Tottenham or press them as against Newcastle and Villa. He brings these qualities in every game, regardless of how good his touch is or if he is shooting well.
In turn this allowed Herrera to get in the team. For my money he's our best midfielder but he wasn't even getting a chance with Rooney having 'privileges' and starting every game in midfield. His energy is excellent and, as with Rooney moving upfront, is another reason for our much improved pressing. His link-up play is also great, especially with Mata and of course he scores goals.
There are other benefits too. The change in formation to 4-3-3 has been huge for us and there was no indication of that happening until after RvP got injured. It was a big blunder of Van Gaal to spend so much of the season insisting on two immobile forwards but not playing wingers to supply them with chances. Now we've got a more mobile player upfront and threats from wide areas too. Mata's performance at Anfield was maybe the best any of our attackers have put in all season and he was playing in a position which we have spent most of the season trying to avoid using.
The above post has covered it well, but put bluntly, we don't have to shove square pegs in round holes with no RvP in the side. Adding him has a chain reaction on many other positions. To our detriment at that.
The reason we have played better in midfield is because we are playing midfielders in midfield rather than playing strikers there.
Because we have an extra midfielder in midfield (who isn't Rooney).
Because we're pressing hard from the front via Rooney - who did a great job of doing that at Liverpool and closed them down from the front every chance he got. Something RvP just can't do.
Yeah, he is. Take Rooney out of that false 9 slot and the pressure on the midfield will increase, and in turn the pressure on the defence will increase.[/QUOTE]
True. However, it's also true that it took RvP being injured, Di Maria being suspended, Falcao being dropped - Rooney moved from CM to CF and Ander Herrera and Juan Mata being moved from the bench to the starting line up for it to work...
Daily Mail for the past week or so keeps reporting he's out this summer. Even going as far to predict that we will pay him to leave so he can be offered to Serie A at a cut price (right up Juventus' ally).
I think it's inevitable we are bringing in another striker and I think it will be Cavani. That rumor hasn't gone away for about a year now.
I think it's inevitable we are bringing in another striker and I think it will be Cavani. That rumor hasn't gone away for about a year now.
I really hope not.
And next season will become this season part 2 - how to fit in your striker captain and your big name, unproven PL striker...
Cavani can play on the wings too. Maybe Van Gaal is looking to kill two birds with one stone.
Rooney up top, Cavani on the wings. Rooney in the 10, Cavani up top.
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