I was going to say the exact same thing, the man has no acceleration left in him. We can see that in the training video.
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I was going to say the exact same thing, the man has no acceleration left in him. We can see that in the training video.
At the end of the day, that's all speculation. We won the title with RVP in the side, so he was worth it. Hernandez was a regular in his first season with us, and was doing well, but then started regressing. I don't think that was because of RVP. He just started losing form, and also defences started figuring him out. Welbeck - well, we'll see. I don't see it, and I think Saturday's game said it all about him. He's had plenty of chances up front at this stage, and we'll see how he does long term with Arsenal. All I know is, when we were under the cosh the other day, I repeatedly felt myself thinking "Thank God it's Welbeck up top who their chances are likely to fall to". No matter how poor a run of form RVP is in, I doubt Arsenal fans were thinking that.
As for Kagawa .. I'm not even going to bother discussing him with you, I think even non English speaking rural Thai grandmother's know about your man love for him. ;-)
Hopefully van Gaal realises that. Rest the man and he might be some use near the end of the season. His time is running out I fear.
I blame Moyes and his bleeding double running sessions 
those alone aged our Robin by 5 seasons or more.
fecking moyes!
joking
those alone aged our Robin by 5 seasons or more.fecking moyes!
joking
Of course, but it's all valid speculation.
Because of RVP, Kagawa had to play on the wing. It didn't suit him, and stagnated his development. Welbeck could hardly play a minute in the striker position, and was basically second string to Kagawa on the left wing. Hernandez barely featured at all. And then we have Rooney, who had his worst season for a long time. He just doesn't suit RVP.
If we didn't sign RVP, then Kagawa would have played in his favored position. Welbeck and Hernandez would have gotten a ton of playtime, both in their favored position and on the wing(in Welbeck's case). You are free to believe that this wouldn't have been better for the team in that particular season. But you can't deny that these 3 players would have had a much better time and developed much more.
That is why I will always view this transfer as a mistake. We threw 3 very promising players under the bus for 1, who probably only lasted for one season. A season that we most likely would have won anyways. I'm not gonna deny that he had an excellent season. But that season alone is not worth it for me.
But what's done is done. We have to move forward. Luckily, we have many new gems now(Di Maria, Herrera and Blind).
So ... essentially, you're blaming one world class talent (when we signed him, and in his great first year for us) for the fact that 3 other players could not adapt? I have a differing opinion to you. Kagawa - he just wasn't suited to English football, nor to playing for a club of the size of Manchester United. He'll be fine now that he's back where he feels comfortable, but he just didn't have the balls to step up at one of the world's biggest clubs.
Welbeck - he's a decent footballer, and he did fine in his time with us. But he's reached his peak. He thinks he's a far better striker than he actually is, and his time at Arsenal will prove that (course I could be wrong on that one, just my opinion).
Rooney did have a bad season. But that was mostly down to falling out with Fergie and wanting to move on at that time. He's now playing well again in my opinion (albeit I personally prefer him up front) and RvP is still there. So I don't buy into it regarding him either.
I don't think Hernandez is good enough anymore to be starting for United. I don't think that had anything to do with RVP. He simply tailed off.
I can deny that they wouldn't have developed much more to be honest. It's up to players to prove they are good enough to oust other players. Those players could not do it. The better player started, I don't feel signing RVP was remotely a mistake. Neither was signing Hernandez, as he did a great job in his first year. We developed Welbeck as far as we could, selling him wasn't a mistake.
Signing Kagawa was a mistake.
Just browsing our stats page at WhoScored, and was surprised to see that Van Persie has played more minutes in the league this season than any other of our outfield players. Not necessarily because I don't think he should've, but because he missed the first games, and seems to get substituted a lot. And yet there it is: more minutes on the pitch than anyone else barring De Gea.
Have to agree with Mad Winger here.
I agree with you that you can't blame van Persie for the other guys' failings, but when you state the signing of Kagawa was a mistake, I simply have to disagree.
For me, Kagawa fitted in perfectly to what we had going for us with Welbeck and Rooney; van Persie didn't.
I think Kagawa would have complemented Welbeck and Rooney in an attack given time to gel, whereas I always thought van Persie wouldn't. I've never seen him as someone who plays well with others close by him - "In his areas"
Signing both in the same window was silly, in my opinion, and it just demonstrated a desire to regain the title from City that year, even if it would set us back after and leave a few problems. To win at all costs. "As long as we won" I think Evans said.
We actually didn't need him. The problem wasn't actually there to be solved. And I think there were other motives behind signing him beyond improving our team, personally.
It worked, for that season.. But I think we could have won without him, and would be in better shape now without doubt.
I'd definitely go back and stop us signing van Persie, and spend that money on a midfielder, if I could go back. Even with the knowledge that he'd play a big part in number 20.
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His contract ends in the summer doesn't it?
If Falcao doesn't proove his worth, next summer is going to be mouthwatering for us transfer muppets. We're going to be in for a superstar striker or two
If Falcao doesn't proove his worth, next summer is going to be mouthwatering for us transfer muppets. We're going to be in for a superstar striker or two
His contract ends in the summer doesn't it?
If Falcao doesn't proove his worth, next summer is going to be mouthwatering for us transfer muppets. We're going to be in for a superstar striker or two
2016. 4 year deal.
Ah right I thought we signed him on a short 3 year deal with a 1 year option.
I still think we will be in for another striker in the summer.
He does look quite a bit slower, overall. He doesn't have the energy that made him the dynamic, dangerous striker that he was before Sir Alex retired. His movement has also worsened to the point where he's almost always stagnant. The thing that really gets to me is that his technique is still top notch, and he's a very intelligent footballer who's great at reading the game. It's just sad to see that he can't apply himself like he used to in the past.
He's become more static off the ball and slower on the ball. He's become too easy to dispossess, and he struggles to get involved in the game. The movement that he demonstrated in his first season with us is pretty much absent nowadays. He really is in poor form right now and looks like he needs to not play for a few games to get back to his best.
However, one thing that makes van Persie struggle is the fact that he's so isolated. Every time he has a bad match, he's quite often isolated and lacks support. Two things are causing this:
He's become more static off the ball and slower on the ball. He's become too easy to dispossess, and he struggles to get involved in the game. The movement that he demonstrated in his first season with us is pretty much absent nowadays. He really is in poor form right now and looks like he needs to not play for a few games to get back to his best.
However, one thing that makes van Persie struggle is the fact that he's so isolated. Every time he has a bad match, he's quite often isolated and lacks support. Two things are causing this:
- He's getting a lack of attacking support
- His lack of energy and dynamism makes it difficult for him to shake off the opposition.
Ah yeah, look that's fair enough. That's your opinion.
I just simply didn't see enough from Kagawa in his time with us to show me that he was the answer for anything. I don't think he was the type of player who would grab big games for us, and I felt he wilted under the microscope of playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world, outside his own little system.
Whereas Van Persie has thrived with a few clubs now, and under various international managers.
Just my own feeling, but there's no way to prove it either way.
I was thinking is that possible to transform him into a sort of Totti, who is also speedless ?
Its nowt to do with age, more about him being a steaming shit right now.
@dirkey
Well, I'm gonna have to disagree. Without RVP, Kagawa and Welbeck would have played more than twice as much in their favored position. Hernandez would probably have doubled his overall playtime. Needless to say that this would have done them a world of good. Especially Kagawa.
There's no way of proving that either of these three would have turned out good without RVP. But there's a fair chance at least one of them would. And that would totally have been worth it, if we ended up winning the season after all.
I agree with Speak. If I could go back in time and not sign RVP, then I most definitely would.
Well, I'm gonna have to disagree. Without RVP, Kagawa and Welbeck would have played more than twice as much in their favored position. Hernandez would probably have doubled his overall playtime. Needless to say that this would have done them a world of good. Especially Kagawa.
There's no way of proving that either of these three would have turned out good without RVP. But there's a fair chance at least one of them would. And that would totally have been worth it, if we ended up winning the season after all.
I agree with Speak. If I could go back in time and not sign RVP, then I most definitely would.
I would never revisit that decision. He won us the league in 2012 and he got us to the Champions league ties against Bayern last season. He has been a great acquisition but he's been useless this year.
I think we would have won regardless. I don't deny that he was great that year, though.
Under Moyes he spent half the time injured and was only a shadow of himself. He had a decent goals/assist ratio, which is the only thing that "saved" his season for me. Not overly impressed.
And now he's shit. I have a bad feeling he'll never even reach 80% of what he was in 2012-2013 again. And if that was to happen, I'll even go as far as to say that it was a horrible signing. Definitely not worth throwing 3 promising players under the bus for.
But it's obvious that people will have different opinions here. If you think that we wouldn't have won that season without RVP and that Kagawa, Welbeck and Hernandez never had a shot anyways, then of course this signature is gonna be considered good. But for the rest of us, it's not.
Aside from scoring a last gasp equaliser vs Chelsea. He should be dropped, but 'useless' is a bit harsh.
Should be giving a long rest to accommodate Falcao and if he doesn't recover his form to some degree or he should be shipped off. Legend and reason for our 20th title but legend of not we shouldn't be keeping players around for the sake of it, especially when they're on 200k a week.
I don't think Kagawa, Welbeck and Hernandez leaving was necessarily down to signing van Persie, I think it was more down to Ferguson leaving. We'll never know, but I think Ferguson would have sold Rooney if he was still in charge and Kagawa would have been given a chance to make it as a 10. Moyes keeping him and then getting him to sign a fat new contract is what did for Shinji ultimately- Mata in January sealed the deal. If Rooney had gone, maybe Welbeck and Hernandez (who I think had a very impressive 12/13 season) would have been given more chances to play as a CF and would still be here.
RvP has not been a runner for the last few years. He's at his best in and around the box, but given the crap we have played in the attacking third of the pitch, it's no wonder he has been struggling. If LvG wants to continue to play this current formation, then he may as well start with Wilson, who will run all day and may get on the end of a fast break.
I don't think SAF would have ever sold Rooney, whatever the magnitude of their falling out. It would have been sorted IMO, as Fergie knew better than anyone how important he is to us. Kagawa would have also been an awful replacement for Rooney in the number 10 position. I'm not sure how anybody would think otherwise unless they're a blatant Kagawa fanboy like Mad Winger.
Van Persie needs resting, playing him into form is looking a failed exercise, Wilson should start against Hull and we should introduce Falcao at the first opportunity. He's far from gone as a player though, that's some knee jerk bullshit right there, never been reliant on pace or his running but were never going to see the best of him playing from the right in a countering formation, the Arsenal game was a right off for VP.
You could be right, I just remember at the time when he was dropped for the Madrid game it felt very much as though van Persie was the star and the signs weren't good for him. The reaction to him receiving the medal was another clue. Maybe Ferguson would have ditched Kagawa anyway or continued to play him out of position, he certainly didn't seem as ruthless in his later years as before when players could all of sudden find themselves gone like the season when Ince, Highes and Kanchelskis all went. Not sure people such as Anderson, Young, Nani and Valencia would have lasted as long as they have were they in the 90's era after they declined.
You have to admire mad wingers ability to bring Kagawa into every single thread 
What makes me worried about the consistent fielding of Van Persie is not only about results,but also about ramifications in the dressing room. Regardless of LVG being an experienced manager who knows how to manage a team, one constant variable remains in all of professional team sports: if the coach/manager keeps on fielding players who are a hindrance, many others will grow frustrated and angry towards the coach/manager. Now people can call me alarmist for raising the issue up, but I can assure you that it is not something to take lightly as far as the reality of professional sports goes. It is a very dangerous game.
Until now, LVG can breathe a little with the current position at 4th. Hence this is why I believe he has to take Van Persie out of the starting lineup now when not many people are frustrated in that dressing room. Better do it now than later. We don't know how long Falcao will take before being deemed fit for first team action, but Wilson has shown he's more than capable of taking his share of workload even if it doesn't mean playing full matches (giving him 65-70 minutes is fine by me). Either way, I don,t think many people in the dressing room would feel surprised if LVG sends Van Persie to the bench from now on.
We are in need of speed and energy, so then field players who have speed and energy.
Until now, LVG can breathe a little with the current position at 4th. Hence this is why I believe he has to take Van Persie out of the starting lineup now when not many people are frustrated in that dressing room. Better do it now than later. We don't know how long Falcao will take before being deemed fit for first team action, but Wilson has shown he's more than capable of taking his share of workload even if it doesn't mean playing full matches (giving him 65-70 minutes is fine by me). Either way, I don,t think many people in the dressing room would feel surprised if LVG sends Van Persie to the bench from now on.
We are in need of speed and energy, so then field players who have speed and energy.
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So he's back to taking the corners from the right, instead of Di Maria. What's all that about?
His user name is very apt, the bloody loony.You have to admire mad wingers ability to bring Kagawa into every single thread
Di Maria was awful at them. RvP was quite good a few seasons ago I think so I don't have a problem with it.
Apart from Rooney I don't think we have much option, Falco need to fully fit and that will also takes time. Wilson still need to learn lot.
Now as confidence, some time its takes little more time to regroup and get back confidence.
The way we play our last 2 -3 games should not bring any conclusion. With all injury situation we have to adjust our play which really not working for him.
Let give him game against Hull and Stoke, if he still not able to do anything good then we need to worry.
We all know how class player he is, we need to give him time to settle.
Its because we have awful lot of injuries,
You can't get any consistency when there are too much change going on.
That's the thing. Who would you play? Mata or Persie? If anything, Mata is more in need of starting/playing the next 2 matches than Persie.
I fear the way we are playing dropping off then trying to counter is never going to suit RVP. Would have suited Welbecks style more. If we start dominating games more and playing in oppositions half the RVP will shine again as in and around the box there are few that's better. But putting balls into the channels for him just doesn't suit.
I think the only reason Mata not playing is we need player in that position who can drop back to help defense.
I don't know what LVG thinking but right now, he is preferring players in midfield who can help defense.
Contrary to popular belief, Mata can drop back and help the defense.
We can blame van Persie all we want, but just take a look at the amount of touches he's had. He never gets the ball at all. We never play through the middle and our crossing has stopped all of a sudden. He cannot do anything without the ball.
Though it can also be read as he doesn't get into any good positions as well. But according to me, I think it's the former. Midfield with Fellaini means RvP is completely isolated upfront. Our midfield needs to provide him with good service. Rooney drops too deep to get the ball but never tries to find van Persie. He always tries to play a short pass to a different midfielder or a cross field pass to the wings. RvP doesn't work hard enough like Welbeck or Wilson to get the ball back. But why should he? We need to be much better as a team to create more chances per game and it's largely the midfield's fault. We have too many players who take the safe route back and have very less creativity. It will increase our possession but it's of no fecking use when all we do is just randomly pass the ball amongst ourselves and pose no danger to the opponent. Valencia and Fellaini are the biggest culprits. Herrera offers so much more that's why I like him.
van Persie isn't a goal poacher. He needs to have more than a few touches of the ball and he's more than capable of scoring screamers from outside the box. He likes the ball to be played at his feet. He doesn't rely on speed so age is not a factor in his deterioration. It's the midfield. We need to learn to play narrow and be more creative with the ball. Get RvP involved more. He's still in the top bracket of strikers and we are wasting him.
Though it can also be read as he doesn't get into any good positions as well. But according to me, I think it's the former. Midfield with Fellaini means RvP is completely isolated upfront. Our midfield needs to provide him with good service. Rooney drops too deep to get the ball but never tries to find van Persie. He always tries to play a short pass to a different midfielder or a cross field pass to the wings. RvP doesn't work hard enough like Welbeck or Wilson to get the ball back. But why should he? We need to be much better as a team to create more chances per game and it's largely the midfield's fault. We have too many players who take the safe route back and have very less creativity. It will increase our possession but it's of no fecking use when all we do is just randomly pass the ball amongst ourselves and pose no danger to the opponent. Valencia and Fellaini are the biggest culprits. Herrera offers so much more that's why I like him.
van Persie isn't a goal poacher. He needs to have more than a few touches of the ball and he's more than capable of scoring screamers from outside the box. He likes the ball to be played at his feet. He doesn't rely on speed so age is not a factor in his deterioration. It's the midfield. We need to learn to play narrow and be more creative with the ball. Get RvP involved more. He's still in the top bracket of strikers and we are wasting him.
I can't believe how some peoples views on RvP have changed. Yes, he's not been great this season, but he won us the league by being unbelievable. We never had the midfield with passing and movement behind Kagawa to make it work, and Welbeck wouldn't of been a reliable enough source of goals. Even a poor RvP this season is outscoring Welbeck.
You are very patient if you want to give him 2 more games. He is the player who played most minutes for us this season mind you. I do not see a point in playing him right now. There are two aspects of this case:
Firstly, he has been in poor form from the start of the season. He scored a couple of goals but overall his performances have been underwhelming. Not something I’m worried about though, as we have a lot of options up top.
Secondly, we are playing pretty shite football. We just don’t create scoring chances, and unless we start doing it, I don’t see a point in playing RvP from the start. Combining those two issues, he is useless for us right now. Once we settle down a little bit, sort out the defence and find some balance in attack, I’m sure he will score a lot for us. Just right now we should be looking for another options.
It’s not his form that’s worrying right now. It’s the decision to play him every single week from the start that’s bothering me.
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