[Speak]

It's not that Falcao's 'better' necessarily. But his style of player is better suited for the way we should be playing. At least in my opinion.

van Persie has the best control and technique of the set of strikers we have - that's in no doubt, but it's the speed he plays at and the lack of movement. He doesn't release the ball quick enough, he can't stretch teams, which makes him less suited to the lone role. He holds up the ball accurately, but again it slows down the move. Something like what Lukaku did against Arsenal is pretty much out of the question for van Persie.

Falcao is capable of that sort of aggressive, positive hold up play, and he trumps van Persie in all the other areas above, and is one of the few strikers who is just as capable of scoring from nothing and scoring acrobatic goals as van Persie.
Other than set pieces and control (with isn't the be-all and end-all) I don't see why van Persie should start over him.
It would just lead to more disjointed, slow football.

And I don't see van persie as one to really partner anyone. He just doesn't play like a partner. He's not like Berkgamp, with out of this world vision and passing and intelligence in the final third. And he's not the player he was years ago when he played wide for Arsenal, so wide in a 4-3-3 is out of the question.

 

[shaggy]

Do you mean "is better" or "will be better"?

Will be better.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Quite a different opinion to me there Speak. Interesting.

I'd say he comes across as a forward who would operate better when he is tasked to occupy the lone striker role....but in a completely different way to Falcao. Even though he's done it for the majority of time he's been with us, he seems a lot more uncomfortable with someone playing off him or next to him. I think the way van Gaal used Robben and van Persie at the WC is the only way you can have RVP in some sort of partnership. In fact he'd probably have been the one banging in the majority ofgoals if Robben was one of those players who didn't shoot everytime he can (which isn't a bad thing, fair play to him for taking his chances!).

In a 4-3-3 with no Mata or Rooney with a 3 man midfield of Carrick/Blind, Herrera and Di Maria would suit his strengths best, though we would be lacking Di Maria's guile and pace on the wing.

What we have is three very different forwards. I think Rooney is the most all-round effective player. No matter how bad he plays he guarantees 30 goals and assists a season. Falcao is a predator, his mindset is purely on getting into the best position to score a goal whether it comes from carrying the ball himself and using the runners as decoys, or a classic forward finding pockets of space in the 6 yard box. van Persie is a very quick thinker, one thing he relies on is speed of thought and when he gets that right he is absolutely devastating - but it relies on the passer also seeing that perfect ball. He's never running in behind when it takes 25 passes before someone considers passing forwards.

The big task for LVG is does he use 1, 2 or 3 of the 3, or which of the 3 does he use to ensure the other 9 or 10 players in the team are performing effectively. I think Rooney is a constant culprit of slowing down play and that naturally makes certain players look poor, particularly midfielders. At the same time, his diagonal pass to Valencia has most pundits in the world brainwashed into thinking Valencia is still great. van Persie can play within himself, and whilst he has excellent technique, his work really should be limited to within 25 yards of goal, because that is where he is best placed. Falcao will contribute even less to the build up play than van Persie, but if it stops Wayne Rooney from slowing down play then I'm all for it.

It's quite intriguing to see what we do with the 3 forwards. Question marks over all 3 for completely different reasons, yet on their day they are all absolutely class acts.

 

[markhrad]

I suspect for the next 2-3 matches, once Falcao is match-fit, RVP will start on the bench.

 

[Magnus]

There is no better strikers than van persie when in form. However he didn´t show anything last year and this year he has been shite. Would rather have kept Welbeck and gotten rid of RVP.

 

[Speak]

Quite a different opinion to me there Speak. Interesting.

I'd say he comes across as a forward who would operate better when he is tasked to occupy the lone striker role....but in a completely different way to Falcao. Even though he's done it for the majority of time he's been with us, he seems a lot more uncomfortable with someone playing off him or next to him. I think the way van Gaal used Robben and van Persie at the WC is the only way you can have RVP in some sort of partnership. In fact he'd probably have been the one banging in the majority ofgoals if Robben was one of those players who didn't shoot everytime he can (which isn't a bad thing, fair play to him for taking his chances!).

In a 4-3-3 with no Mata or Rooney with a 3 man midfield of Carrick/Blind, Herrera and Di Maria would suit his strengths best, though we would be lacking Di Maria's guile and pace on the wing.

What we have is three very different forwards. I think Rooney is the most all-round effective player. No matter how bad he plays he guarantees 30 goals and assists a season. Falcao is a predator, his mindset is purely on getting into the best position to score a goal whether it comes from carrying the ball himself and using the runners as decoys, or a classic forward finding pockets of space in the 6 yard box. van Persie is a very quick thinker, one thing he relies on is speed of thought and when he gets that right he is absolutely devastating - but it relies on the passer also seeing that perfect ball. He's never running in behind when it takes 25 passes before someone considers passing forwards.

The big task for LVG is does he use 1, 2 or 3 of the 3, or which of the 3 does he use to ensure the other 9 or 10 players in the team are performing effectively. I think Rooney is a constant culprit of slowing down play and that naturally makes certain players look poor, particularly midfielders. At the same time, his diagonal pass to Valencia has most pundits in the world brainwashed into thinking Valencia is still great. van Persie can play within himself, and whilst he has excellent technique, his work really should be limited to within 25 yards of goal, because that is where he is best placed. Falcao will contribute even less to the build up play than van Persie, but if it stops Wayne Rooney from slowing down play then I'm all for it.

It's quite intriguing to see what we do with the 3 forwards. Question marks over all 3 for completely different reasons, yet on their day they are all absolutely class acts.

I agree with this bit in bold actually. He's a lone striker. And I didn't think Robben and him worked that well as a partnership. They'd have been better off with someone with a bit more movement and pace, to bounce of Robben, to come short and interchange at times, and to create space for him at other times.

He's a lone striker which is fine. But it's the type of lone striker that creates the problems. Unless you have speed merchants on either side, van Persie is likely to slow things down to much for my liking. And the lack of energy and movement jsut makes us predictable and slow. It makes it harder to create good angles and open teams up.

You mention it taking 25 passes to get to him, but I actually think he contributes to that. He's very much become a player who only wants it into feet, which alters how the team can play and where the passes can go.
It's not as bad when he's up top on his own and has a bit more space, but Falcao has the ability to turn and run with the ball on the break, as well as good snappy hold up play.

I actually think Rooney is very energetic, quick and snappy on the ball, when given a similar partner (Kagawa, Welbeck, first season Hernandez) and someone like Falcao - who moves the ball on quickly and gets moving - will potentially be a great partner for him, and see him raise his game and stop trying to be too precise and measured.

Like you said, at least we have options, and it'll be interesting to see what happens. But I think putting van Persie in a partnership with Falcao or Rooney will be no good.

 

[united_99]

I heard they were playing with 10 men which is always difficult. On top form RvP is our best striker and that includes Falcao. How both of them and Rooney will do this season noone knows. RvP hasn't had a pre season, Falcao has come back from an injury. It's Rooney who doesn't have any excuse but is playing like he hasn't had any football for 6 months (well can't really blame him much as we indeed hardly played any football under Moyes).

But once RvP gets his fitness back he will be on a great run again, no doubt. It's only a matter of time (unless he indeed needs a surgery).

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Like you said, at least we have options, and it'll be interesting to see what happens. But I think putting van Persie in a partnership with Falcao or Rooney will be no good.

It's a problem throughout the squad...there aren't many players who seem to complement one another. I've never seen two players who complemented each other more than Ferdinand and Vidic so it's finding the balance in the whole team as well as finding a balance between the proven class players in the forward roles. Get it right at the back and midfield and I think things become a whole lot easier further up. It's fair to say the forwards possibly contribute to some of the uncertainty we see at the back but for me you build your team from the back and the confidence works it's way forward.

So far this season we've seen our defence as a very unbalanced unit and my own opinion on the effects of that is it's prompted more talented players such as Mata and Rooney to be a bit too safe when they get it. Hopefully Rojo, Shaw and Rafael returning can add some balance to the back and steady things up for us and get players like Mata, Rooney and RVP feeling a bit more relaxed.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Watched him closeley tonight, and he was able to go full throttle for the full 90 minutes. Good to see, because in Brasil he seemed exhausted after 70 minutes in most matches.

Really don't see why people are writing him off except for the fact that they are a bit thick. The way he looked tonight, he will be up and running for us in no time. Unless someone kicks him and he gets injured again.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Watched him closeley tonight, and he was able to go full throttle for the full 90 minutes. Good to see, because in Brasil he seemed exhausted after 70 minutes in most matches.

Really don't see why people are writing him off except for the fact that they are a bit thick. The way he looked tonight, he will be up and running for us in no time. Unless someone kicks him and he gets injured again.

Dafuq, the only thing he did is drop back and bring the ball backwards, just terrible. He lost almost all his duels.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Dafuq, the only thing he did is drop back and bring the ball backwards, just terrible. He lost almost all his duels.

No he didn't. And no he didn't. 6/10 or 6.5/10 if you want my match rating, 5 would be unfair and a 7 would be too much. Only made comments about his fitness levels by the way, and I'll bet my life on it he will be up and running for us in no time, but I already said that.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I'm a little unsure. Think of that van Persie in the final year for Arsenal and the van Persie in the first year for United. Comparable to any great striker of any generation. Truly devastating. That van Persie seems a million miles away and I'm not expecting him back.

I hope I'm wrong. But I think he's on the decline.

 

[Sammyjunn]

No he didn't. And no he didn't. 6/10 or 6.5/10 if you want my match rating, 5 would be unfair and a 7 would be too much. Only made comments about his fitness levels by the way, and I'll bet my life on it he will be up and running for us in no time, but I already said that.

Up and running, he should be fit long time by now, he hasnt been injured and is training for like a month, that's not the problem, the problem is his play which is dogshite. He didn't add some individual quality to the team once again, just like vs Italy.

 

[Hed Zitin]

Ever since after that first game in the WC he's had almost the same type of performances over and over again.

He's not getting on the ball enough. He stands in the box and is easy to mark because he hardly moves. His hold up play is frankly shocking right now. He looks weaker.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Up and running, he should be fit long time by now, he hasnt been injured and is training for like a month, that's not the problem, the problem is his play which is dogshite. He didn't add some individual quality to the team once again, just like vs Italy.

That's what I mean. You really understand feck all about football if you honestly believe a 31 year old player who played a World Cup while not being fully fit (scored 4, more than Robben by the way) and had no pre-season 'should be fit long time by now' after four or five weeks of training.

Based on tonights game there was nothing that would suggest he's lost his magic touch and I don't really see how he looked 'weak', since he was never Drogba or anything.

 

[Speak]

A lack of energy, movement and speed.
Nothing new.

 

[Sammyjunn]

That's what I mean. You really understand feck all about football if you honestly believe a 31 year old player who played a World Cup while not being fully fit (scored 4, more than Robben by the way) and had no pre-season 'should be fit long time by now' after four or five weeks of training.

Based on tonights game there was nothing that would suggest he's lost his magic touch and I don't really see how he looked 'weak', since he was never Drogba or anything.

WTF, you think it costs players 2 months to get fit? Or even more? And I'm saying fit, not in form, after a holiday, you train 5 weeks, already have played matches, his 4th now, still cant expect he is fit? Footballers are spoiled nowadays then...

 

[Henrik Larsson]

A lack of energy, movement and speed.
Nothing new.

Dude...

I'm outta here before I really get annoyed.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

Just taking a while getting going, he now has genuine competition for his place at United now, so he either ups his game, or warms the bench, all nice and healthy for us.

Personally reckon he'll be banging them in again soon enough, and be our top scorer this season.

 

[Firstouch20]

Lol at people writing off van Persie. He will be our best striker this season and best player along with di maria. Falcao and Rooney will be cleaning his boots

 

[Kag]

Shouldn't be near the first team in this form.

 

[Sixpence]

A lack of energy, movement and speed.
Nothing new.

He will not age well from here on in.

 

[Firstouch20]

He will not age well from here on in.

He will. He never relied on pace and power. All he needs is fitness and sharpness. He will adapt better than most.

 

[Antisocial]

Interesting watching United In Press discussing him talking about playing until he's 40, and aiming to be involved in Russia 2018 - tbh the look of him recently you could be surprised at that since he's not exactly looked amazing for a while now.

 

[Speak]

He will. He never relied on pace and power. All he needs is fitness and sharpness. He will adapt better than most.

Ageing well is one thing; ageing so well that he's still one to build the team around is another.
He's not like Bergkamp - he doesn't have the vision, pass or link-up ability on that level. It's just not his game at all.

He doesn't rely on pace and power, but that doesn't mean that losing pace and power wont still have an effect on his game.

 

[Sixpence]

He will. He never relied on pace and power. All he needs is fitness and sharpness. He will adapt better than most.

Fitness is not something you keep forever either you know. These days he looks fecked after 60 mins of a match, and he hardly runs much anyway. He is class and I expect him to recover but we may have seen the best of him.

 

[markhrad]

RVP's problem has always been that he is injury prone. No one before has ever questioned his skill level, as recent as 2012/13 he was one of he best strikers in the world, I for sure am not giving up on him.
Getting Falcao and Rooney being captain makes me think that RVP will start on the bench for the next few games but I don't think it will take long for him to be a consistent starter.

 

[RDCR07]

Ageing well is one thing; ageing so well that he's still one to build the team around is another.
He's not like Bergkamp - he doesn't have the vision, pass or link-up ability on that level. It's just not his game at all.

I think you need to watch RVP more closely.

 

[vibe]

He is class and I expect him to recover but we may have seen the best of him.

True this. He peaked. And boy, did he peak hard. He pretty much singlehandedly won us the title, I don't think we'd have gotten anywhere near top 4 that season without van Persie on our side. I don't think you can expect much more of a player. His performances paid off for his transfer fee. And then some. But we have to come to terms that the RvP during 2012/13 is long gone. He's old, he's lost his touch and he shouldn't start ahead of Falcao in any game that matters.

I'm sentimental saying it too. I want to keep singing that Oh Robin van Persie chant forever. Even if he spent all that time in Arsenal, he's as United as they come. A born winner who dominates the opposition. I was in love the second I saw him in a United shirt. But age gets to us all. We owe him a few appearances off the bench, he's done enough for us to deserve that, but he's just too slow, off the pace and not clinical enough anymore to be our first choice striker, especially with Falcao on board.

 

[RDCR07]

True this. He peaked. And boy, did he peak hard.

Well of course he peaked. He is fecking 31.

 

[herokiller84]

Directness has gone.

Languishes with his back to goal when he should be trying to make goalkeepers work.

Form is temp though,,,hopefully.

 

[Speak]

I think you need to watch RVP more closely.

He's not even on Berbatov's level in that regard, let alone Bergkamp's. Great technical ability, but I don't see vision, close link-up or final third passing of that level. Berbatov trumps him on final pass and deft through balls and general link-up. Bergkamp had a better brain for the role.

Some say that van Persie doesn't rely on pace and will turn into a Bergkamp-esque 'walking' second striker, but, despite his technical ability, I just don't see that in him at all.

He'd be capable of producing moments of magic, but doing the overall role properly? Na.

 

[DWelbz19]

His movement is far too predictable these days. The amount of nothing goals he bagged for us and Arsenal through positioning was brilliant, he doesn't seem to have that at the moment. I also agree he has lost a lot of his build up play, just two/three seasons ago he was almost as lethal with his back toward the defender as he was facing them. These are traits that do go with age, and are exmplified through injuries. I hope he pulls through it but I do feel he's on the decline rather fast.

 

[Gerald G]

His movement is far too predictable these days. The amount of nothing goals he bagged for us and Arsenal through positioning was brilliant, he doesn't seem to have that at the moment. I also agree he has lost a lot of his build up play, just two/three seasons ago he was almost as lethal with his back toward the defender as he was facing them. These are traits that do go with age, and are exmplified through injuries. I hope he pulls through it but I do feel he's on the decline rather fast.

I agree with the majority of this. I remember away to Madrid in the 12/13 season he was brilliant with his hold up play and his back to goal. Now he doesn't seem to do it well and loses the ball or gets bullied off it. I hope he's just in bad form and not actually declining badly. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[SonnyTheHaloPro]

Well of course he peaked. He is fecking 31.

Zlatan says hi!

 

[RDCR07]

He's not even on Berbatov's level in that regard, let alone Bergkamp's. Great technical ability, but I don't see vision, close link-up or final third passing of that level. Berbatov trumps him on final pass and deft through balls and general link-up. Bergkamp had a better brain for the role.

Some say that van Persie doesn't rely on pace and will turn into a Bergkamp-esque 'walking' second striker, but, despite his technical ability, I just don't see that in him at all.

He'd be capable of producing moments of magic, but doing the overall role properly? Na.

Christ! If you think Robin fecking Van Persie doesn't have the vision or the link up play then you haven't watched him enough. If you think he is not an intelligent player, then you have gone mad. Here is a video that shows a snippet of what he is. He is so much more than just a #9, than just a goal scorer. He gets involved in the build up and often drops deep to help the team out. In fact he performs that role much better than Falcao does. I posted a video a in RVP's other thread (maybe last years?) while back that showed just what he does for the team. I can't find it. Maybe @Damien can help me find it.

 

[RDCR07]

Zlatan says hi!

Whats so funny?

 

[Speak]

Christ! If you think Robin fecking Van Persie doesn't have the vision or the link up play then you haven't watched him enough. If you think he is not an intelligent player, then you have gone mad. Here is a video that shows a snippet of what he is. He is so much more than just a #9, than just a goal scorer. He gets involved in the build up and often drops deep to help the team out. In fact he performs that role much better than Falcao does. I posted a video a in RVP's other thread (maybe last years?) while back that showed just what he does for the team. I can't find it. Maybe @Damien can help me find it.

I'm not saying he's not intelligent or doesn't have vision - Of course he does.

But I don't believe that it's so so good that when he's slower and even less robust and that needs to become the main part of his game, that he'll play that sort of role that well.
Again, he has great technique and he can pick a nice pass, but even now, when he's looking a bit in decline, his movement is poor, he's barely looking for the short link-up, he's making his own runs, he's not releasing quickly enough. And he's only going to be less mobile in a few years.

There are some players who I could see threading passes, bouncing off others, and dinking through balls with one touch even if they decided to walk all game, and he's just not one of those, for me. I don't even think he looks to link up in that sort of way.
It's usually apparent when a player is like that, and bounces well off others. But he doesn't seem to enjoy/do that well playing with a partner.
He'd need to change his game up quite a bit.

It was always clear that Bergkamp could work well with others; Same for Berbatov (who I bring up, because he often slowed the play down at United and lacked movement too, but had a superior short link-up game and generally had the ability to bounce off people better)
Not so much with van Persie, and I think he may struggle when he no longer has the legs to be scoring the goals himself.

I also think both Berbatov and Bergkamp had a spring to their step that van Persie doesn't - which helps.

We'll have to see, I guess.

 

[Firstouch20]

He's not even on Berbatov's level in that regard, let alone Bergkamp's. Great technical ability, but I don't see vision, close link-up or final third passing of that level. Berbatov trumps him on final pass and deft through balls and general link-up. Bergkamp had a better brain for the role.

Some say that van Persie doesn't rely on pace and will turn into a Bergkamp-esque 'walking' second striker, but, despite his technical ability, I just don't see that in him at all.

He'd be capable of producing moments of magic, but doing the overall role properly? Na.

Lmfao. When RvP is on form there isn't a CF in world football who can match his link up and hold up play in the final third. He has the best touch and control of any striker in Europe

 

[Speak]

Lmfao. When RvP is on form there isn't a CF in world football who can match his link up and hold up play in the final third. He has the best touch and control of any striker in Europe

I don't deny he has a great touch and control. But having the best touch and control doesn't make you the most suited to a second striker role. There's more to it than that. van Persie's link-up is very good, but it's not of the short and snappy kind that'll make him a Berkgamp-type player as he ages.
I don't think his vision/eye for the final ball is so good that a team could go through him, and I'd also disagree about his link-up being the best in the world.

Again, I've yet to see him strike a great partnership with anyone other the years. He doesn't strike me as a provider or someone who likes getting close up to team-mates and bouncing off them.

I'm not saying that he wont still control the ball better than anyone else, and that he wont contribute anything as he ages, but I don't see him being this crafty link-up guy who demands a key role as he ages.