There’s life in the old TikToker yet
Robert Lewandowski | Barcelona
- Thread starter RDCR07
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Great player and number 9
The decline in defenders in recent years can’t be overstated in this debate imo.The likes of Ruud, Shevchenko, Raul, Eto'o all hover around the 400 career goals mark
Benzema 495 Suarez 580
Lewandowski is approaching 700 with seemingly a lot more left in the tank. Crazy numbers
Those guys had to contend with Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Stam, Rio, Vidic, Terry, Lucio, Desailly, Puyol, Hierro etc.
Nowadays Van Dijk is considered the best around, and every team tries to play out from the back.
Na I watched him at his prime but he still lacks that ‘extra’ bit individual brilliance the likes of Suarez and R9 had. I agree that I probably oversimplified his game but he’s still not as magical as the aforementioned in his prime for me. Suarez in particular was an incredible playmaker & passer at his best.
I know what you mean. He’s a really lethal striker who if you feed him will score goals, but doesn’t have the ability to run at players like Suarez or Aguero. That doesn’t mean he’s only useful inside the box though, or that he isn’t technically gifted. But I get what you mean about lacking that directness and pace.
I hate this whole narrative that defenders have declined. Defenders haven't declined, social media was born, tactics are more aggressive than before and very importantly refereeing is much more stricter with smaller mistakes leading to penalties. Individual mistakes are replayed more and hyper analyzed to make any defender look horrible. The fact that you list Lucio, who was Upamecano like for Bayern, is indicative of that. It wasn't until he went to Inter that he actually looked like a world class defender because Jose stopped him from going forward so much.
For the strikers discussion, I've always said all these statistics of goals scored etc need to be taken into context with how much other strikers scored. 20 goals in 2000 is not the same as 20 goals now, most teams play with one striker, rather than two as was the norm before, so attacks are much more focused on the one striker and they will inevitably score more.
I always go by eras when judging players because of how much football changes from one to the next, though some players in every era cross that barrier (Messi, both Ronaldos). In this era I would have Lewandowski as the best striker slightly ahead of Benzema and Kane, people really sleep on his overall ability to bring others into play as that's one of his biggest strengths. His hold-up ability is fantastic and is so helpful to teams that want to transition quickly using both short passes and long balls.
He might not have the silky through passes or dribbling of Suarez but ask Suarez to control a long punt from the keeper when up against a massive defender and then pass to a teammate, because Lewa can do that consistently.
That's because Lewy was never a technical South American wunderkind, he was an unfancied Polish kid who almost joined Blackburn in 2010 if not for Icelandic volcanoes disrupting European air travel. He didn't score much in his 1st season at Dortmund until he learned how to play back to goal under Klopp, it's why his goals per game is significantly higher at Bayern and Barca. At Dortmund he worked incredibly hard in the gym to build up his upper body for Klopp's Gegenpressing, he got great at outmuscling defenders 1v1 and was outstanding holding up the ball under pressure, his teammates called him The Body. At Bayern and Barcelona he's had to reinvent himself to play against 10 men defences where he needs to score in tight spaces and he's constantly improved to meet higher expectations.
At Dortmund Lewy rarely ever got injured, never looked fatigued, and was always reliable to be fit for 90 minutes the entire season despite Klopp's intense style, we all loved his indestructibility. Everyone got injured except him, he's the last to ever get injured or feel unwell and that's a superb trait. He's able to outscore flashier strikers like Suarez because he misses less games due to injury, plays more, and scores more. His wife was a karate champion and he's as disciplined with fitness as Djokovic. Thus it's no surprise he's playing great at 36, he's one of those body-is-a-temple health food munchers who sleeps early and doesn't eat junk. He's even telling Yamal that longevity matters in the long run. You'll rarely find such discipline in Conmebol players
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His longevity is amazing.
He was robbed of the Ballon D'or in 2020 when they cancelled it(they could have held it virtually).
He was robbed of the Ballon D'or in 2020 when they cancelled it(they could have held it virtually).
This is outrageous. At first I was like "wtf is he doing ? "
2 very good finishes. First one felt like a crazy attempt at the moment of the shot but it was flawless placement.
The header was beautiful
The header was beautiful
It was a robbery that it was cancelled, and he should be awarded it still if they were to do the right thing.
There were rumors he was gonna get it years later but it was denied.
We can do with someone like him up front...
Not with all the rest besides and behind him.
Someone like him is Chris Wood, I'm sure the Utd board would sign off on giving Forest Anthony in a swap deal
There wasn't problem with the ceremony ifself, if I remember correctly, but because the 19/20 season was skipped in some countries and some league played, some didn't.
Still, terrible reason not to give the award, though.
It was purely political. France football was hoping for Mbappe to win it but since Ligue 1 got stopped and they lost the CL, they used the excuse of some leagues not being completely finished to not award it .
Had Mbappe won the CL vs Bayern, I have no doubt they would have crowned him
By the way, Lewandowski's got 14 league goals and we're still in October (he scored his 14th in late April), while overall he scored 19 league goals last season.
It's extraordinary what Flick does to him.
And Barcelona are 37-10 after 11 games... it's like watching different sport when we watch United, 7-9 after 8 games.
It's extraordinary what Flick does to him.
And Barcelona are 37-10 after 11 games... it's like watching different sport when we watch United, 7-9 after 8 games.
Insane when I saw this live I couldn’t believe it
I can't believe he is 36. Jesus, he has taken care of his body so well like Novak Djokovic. That pass by him to Yamal was so beautiful. Would have been one of the best team goals for the season if Yamal scored that. Has to be hands down Poland's greatest footballer.
I agree 100%
I genuinely thought he was washed up, quite a turn around.
Another 2 CL goals yesterday - he’s on 99, just one more and he’ll join only Messi and Cristiano in the triple digits club
Respect.
Imagine the hype he would have gotten if he wasn’t Polish and had a little more charisma.
A truly wonderful player.
A truly wonderful player.
Imagine the fanbase he’d have developed if it didn’t cost that much money to have his name printed on your shirts?
Are you saying his tiktok videos didn't show that he had charisma!?
No idea what he is doing on there, to be honest.
I think the reality is much more nuanced than either side of the argument cares to admit. I've bullet pointed a few thoughts below, because I can't be bothered with a long winded reply today:
- Attackers have more protection today. This is unequivocal. Penalties are infinitely softer. Physical contact is extremely limited. Tough tackling of the past, is now a booking or a red card. This all makes the strikers job easier and the defenders job harder. Hence, you'd expect more goals.
- The offside rule has changed over time, in favour of forwards. Used to be two men behind the ball. Then one. Then just level with the last man. Again, this all made breaching defences easier than in past eras. Hence more goals.
- The elimination of the back pass rule. Used to be able to just pass it back to your keeper and he'd pick it up. That was eliminated a long time ago. Again, in the favour of strikers, hence more goals.
- Pitches are so much better now than they were even twenty years ago, that it's laughable. Go back 30, 40, 50 years, and for half the season, pitches looked like farmland. Dribbling on such surfaces required a level of skill and balance that was just incredible. Today, most pitches are like bowling greens. This only helps the creative players and forwards. Hence more goals.
- Sanctions are much heavier now. I touched on the physical contact issue, but the punishment for fouls now is so much higher. I remember watching Maradona get fouled out of games, once famously 26 times in one game. The opposing player got booked early, produced easily another 5 or 6 bookable challenges on him, and never received a second booking. The life of forwards nowadays, are charmed by comparison.
- The nature of defending has changed. Anyone who grew up in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and early 2000s will tell you have different defending was across those eras compared to where it is now. Some of the names mentioned by the poster you responded to, well, they simply don't have peers in the modern game. There's a reason people went absolutely mental rating Van Dijk, because he brought so much of what a modern defender is asked to do - build up play, pass well out from the back, have an accurate long cross field pass - with a mastery of what the fundamentals of defending used to be. Defending. It is not an exaggeration to say that defenders like Maldini, Baresi, Stam, Ferdinand, Nesta, Cannavaro etc., are miles ahead of anyone playing that position today. Being old enough to have watched all these players across the eras, and there are some things that remain universal. All of those players were the best in their positions then, and they would be by far the best in their positions today.
- Football in every sense is cyclical. Tactics cycle, approaches cycle, coaches respond and player development cycles. Previous eras were the golden age of the number 5 (CB), the number 10, and the number 9 (out and out strikers). But as the tactical cycle has changed, so has player development responded. We are now in the golden age of versatile forwards and inside forwards. The languid number 10 is almost a dead art, and while the 10 role is making something of a comeback, it is in a different, harder working form. Just like how strikers have been largely replaced with roving false nines.
For all of these reasons, I agree that it is very hard to judge players across eras. Because every era was so different. However, it is definitely the case that it is a lot easier to score goals now than it was 30 years ago. While some might attribute this to the quality of defenders, I attribute this to changes in tactical approaches, and the myriad of rule changes that have influenced how the game is played and refereed. As a completely separate issue, I will say that the general standard of defending is fairly similar in this era, as it has been in previous eras. And in many respects it is more sophisticated now, than ever. Certainly on a team unit level. But what is also true is that the top, elite level of individual defending, is on the whole much lower in this era than in the last. There are not the standout, GOAT level defensive talents out there that there were in decades past. I think that is very, very evident. When one player does rise to anything close to that level (Van Dijk) people go crazy, like they have never seen the likes of him before. Yet people who were adults through the eras of Ferdinand, Stam, Vidic, Terry etc., in just the PL alone, will tell you that they've seen that - and better - many times before.
I am not sure what I attribute this to. Maybe it's just not fashionable or sexy to be a defender anymore. Maybe so much time is spent working on what to do with the ball, that less time is spent during player development, on how to defend without the ball. Whatever it is, if you look worldwide now, there are hardly any, if any, standout world class CBs. There are plenty of very good ones, but the lack of elite CB talent compared to previous eras is notable.
Tbf he's a good looking guy but the media just likes to hype up players from the big Football powerhouse nations. Most top Footballers have zero charisma and can't speak their mind in the media. It's just their hyperactive PR teams doing their thing.
East European Footballers in general are very underrated. If Lewy was Brazilian or English, he'd get insane hype.
It’s rubbish though, people just fall to nostalgia, the reason the likes of VVD is so rated is the same reason Ferdinand was rated in his era. An all round defender who had little to no weaknesses, Terry and Vidic as good as they are never played in lines high as the current defenders do, defending if anything has become harder to master in the modern era. A lot of CBs of yesteryear wouldn’t be held in such high acclaim as they were because they simply don’t have the physical and athletic attributes and also the ability on the ball.
Rudiger VVD Saliba Gvardiol Konate Gabriel who have played in the PL in the last few years are top class defenders in any era and could easily be compared to the cbs you named. Only difference is you’re not going to see them play in uber defensive sides like the ones Mourinho managed with deep lines and two DMs in front of 3 CBs who never moved an inch.
Done an interview with Rio where he says he said yes to joining United in 2012 but Dortmund said no.
Brilliant interview. Great work by Rio.
RVP has become some sort of a cult hero around here and for good reason but hard to argue we wouldn't have been better off had we gotten the alternative.
That's assuming he would keep the same trajectory as he did in the real world that is.
That's assuming he would keep the same trajectory as he did in the real world that is.
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There’s an alternate universe where David Moyes manages a United team with Kroos-Fabregas-Thiago in midfield, and Bale, Lewandowski, Rooney up top.
Even he wouldnt have fecked that up.
How would you rate Lewandowski against Harry Kane (If both in their prime)?