Rising anti-semitism across the world

[AfonsoAlves]

Yes, it is a scapegoat when you are building your political narrative around the Great Replacement theory.

Okay, but that's a very fringe viewpoint and it's not exactly the viewpoint of most actual governments and political parties.
You can't state that the West is scapegoating Islam when really it's a select fringe % of the population.

 

[harms]

A common form of Holocaust denial is that the [exaggerated number of] Jewish deaths very mainly accidents and a result of disease. Also, that the gas chambers either weren't real or were used for other purposes than killing (often also that it would be impossible for the claims to be true). The sequence of questions and answers is supposed to support this narrative.

Oh, right! That makes sense now. Well, it doesn't, not really, but your explanation does.

 

[Frosty]

I’ve gone back and forth with myself on here over the years as to whether to ignore this stuff or if it’s worth engaging with to some degree. I’m still not really sure, although in other contexts beyond the Cafe, i.e. in a classroom setting, it obviously needs to be addressed.

Ultimately it’s a cultural/societal issue akin to other forms of racism, but also distinct in some ways (as are those other forms in their own ways). So i find it hard to single out random individuals or a place like the Cafe as long as the problem remains an inherent element of the Western (and increasingly global) cultural heritage that continues to shape our societies.

I like the following from an interview with David Feldman of Birkbeck University:

Antisemitism “can be likened to a reservoir of water, accumulating over time, with some elements diminishing while new ones are added…​

​

…When I refer to the ‘reservoir’, I’m speaking about a cultural phenomenon that transcends geographical boundaries. Antisemitism, I believe, has been present in Christian culture for roughly two millennia. Today it’s not solely a Western, European, or North American issue; it’s part of a global common culture. This ‘reservoir’ idea conceives of culture as a resource. This perspective, I believe, is crucial for understanding antisemitism. Often, we perceive antisemitism as an issue affecting someone else, never ourselves. However, it’s a resource that a very wide range of individuals, groups and institutions have tapped into overtime…​

​

……a crucial aspect of addressing antisemitism involves recognising that we are confronting not only ideological Jew-haters, the overt antisemites, but also the more pervasive cultural phenomenon of antisemitism. This is a significant distinction: while we often think of antisemites as ‘the other guys’, antisemitism is, in fact, woven into our common culture.”​

It is an excellent quote.

If we accept that structural racism exists (and plenty of people argue for it and provide evidence for it) then the reservoir idea is very useful to showing how such forms of discrimination are woven into the world.

 

[JPRouve]

Have a look at my third post:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rising-anti-semitism-across-the-world.486145/#post-32754811

'Currently' is the key term here.
The scapegoat (and there can be multiple scapegoats) has not been removed and has continued to remain, especially with the far-right.
I would also argue you are ignoring the huge noise on social media platforms, minimising it in your earlier post.
Talk about the 'Zionists control the media' (which is remarkably similar to the 'Jews control the media' narrative I've heard my whole life) really shows that Jews are being scapegoated, does it not?

You asked why the West hasn't found an other scapegoat. Currently the main scapegoat is Islam, it's at the center of nearly all national political campaigns. Now if you can't accept that it's an other scapegoat that we found; that's your problem.

 

[VorZakone]

That's going to bother me now. I'll have to do some research into it's authorship.

To clarify, my post was based on this paragraph from Wiki:

Evidence presented at the trial, which strongly influenced later accounts up to the present, was that the Protocols were originally written in French by agents of the Tzarist secret police (the Okhrana).[41] However, this version has been questioned by several modern scholars.[41] Michael Hagemeister discovered that the primary witness Alexandre du Chayla had previously written in support of the blood libel, had received four thousand Swiss francs for his testimony, and was secretly doubted even by the plaintiffs.[40] Charles Ruud and Sergei Stepanov concluded that there is no substantial evidence of Okhrana involvement and strong circumstantial evidence against it.[73]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

 

[johnnyteutonic]

You asked why the West hasn't found an other scapegoat. Currently the main scapegoat is Islam, it's at the center of nearly all national political campaigns. Now if you can't accept that it's an other scapegoat that we found; that's your problem.

If you can't accept that there can be multiple scapegoats simultaneously, and aren't able to address my point on the discource on social media, I'd argue that's your problem.
I have to log off now for a while as it's 9:30 a.m. here and I have a few social engagements but that's really my last point on this topic.
Will check later though.

 

[JPRouve]

Okay, but that's a very fringe viewpoint and it's not exactly the viewpoint of most actual governments and political parties.
You can't state that the West is scapegoating Islam when really it's a select fringe % of the population.

It's not fringe at all. It's the base of nearly all the current far right movements in Europe and has extended to a number traditional conservative movements. It's in the fabric of modern nationalism.

 

[JPRouve]

If you can't accept that there can be multiple scapegoats simultaneously, and aren't able to address my point on the discource on social media, I'd argue that's your problem.
I have to log off now for a while as it's 9:30 a.m. here and I have a few social engagements but that's really my last point on this topic.
Will check later though.

I can accept it which is why I used the term main, you are the one that somehow rejected it.

 

[berbatrick]

I genuinely don't understand what this screenshot is about (and what does it suppose to illustrate). I suppose some sort of logical fallacy by ChatGPT... is it as simple as if the jews were killed in gas chambers they didn't die from typhus that was prevalent in concentration camps? I just don't get the logic of that sequence of questions. Not that I should, probably.

I'm not 100% sure, but the argument is that Zyklon B was widely (?) used as a pesticide before its use in the gas chambers. So, these Nazis argue that it was used in the camps only as a disinfectant against germs and lice, and that those who died, actually died from disease despite the best efforts of the humanitarian(?) Germans.

I think in the death camps, those arriving were told they had to strip and enter a delousing chamber (where they were gassed, which many of them figured out before hand), and it's maybe where this form of Holocaust denial comes from.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Would be interesting to see some figures on who is committing these antisemitic hate crimes.

 

[TheRedHearted]

I was assuming it was something to do with Israel’s actions in the Middle East. Then I watched the video and was like, nope, just dickheads

Israel’s crimes are done by the Israeli government. When america or England or Germany did war crimes it wasn’t about “Christian’s”

 

[harms]

Israel’s crimes are done by the Israeli government. When america or England or Germany did war crimes it wasn’t about “Christian’s”

I doubt that they were talking strictly about followers of Judaism. When U.S. or Germany did war crimes people often substituted those countries with its citizens in everyday rhetoric even if it wasn't the right thing to do.

It's an odd point to get touchy about when discussing literal racists though. They don't usually have a good grasp on semiotics nor do they have complex reasons that explain their bigotry.

 

[That_Bloke]

You are using whataboutisms once again in most of this post. This thread is about anti-semitism and the rise especially related to the new right, and you are choosing to de-rail it to talk about Israel and I have explained that these are not mutually exclusive conversations where one has to deflect to talking about Israel rather than talking about anti-semitism as an issue.
I have acknowledged that it is difficult to de-couple the spikes in anti-semitism from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the human rights violations that are occurring there.

I do have to question whether you do care about anti-semitism it all.
Using the rise of anti-semitism in quotes is itself quite derisory.
The bias I am talking about is not to do with genocide - it's the fact you are talking about Israel and have no interest in talking about anti-semitism which is the bias, whether you are conscious of it or not.
In contrast, note that the second or third post I made in this thread talks about islamophobia as well.

I also asked you why you think that the west will find another scapegoat when it hasn't for multiple millennia?
No answer there....

I'll happily concede that I went off on a rant that can be seen as an attempt to derail the thread. For this I sincerely apologize because it wasn't my intention and I fully understand where you're coming from. I also won't deny the recent spike in antisemitic acts.

I honestly think that antisemitism will never go away, racist assholes being racist assholes, just waiting for the slightest opportunity to vent out. I believe that antisemitism has been so deeply woven in the Christian culture throughout the millenias ("tHeY killeD JEsuS", "theY cOntrOl oUR woRLd") that it will never really go away.

However after WWII and especially after 9/11, Islam and Muslims have overtaken the 5th column/external threat trope, by a few light-years. That's where the new far-right has been thriving and betting on. Hatred directed at Muslims/Blacks/Browns. That's where the 21st century western nationalism is being built, that's what currently sells and brings in votes. Not Jew hatred.

The day (I wish it never comes) Jews are actively discriminated when it comes to job and housing opportunities, shot in the streets like dogs and/or bombed to oblivion without anyone batting an eyelid, will be the day where I'll take your thread seriously.

What you currently have is an epidermic reaction to a rogue country behaving... well like a rogue country, and braindead feckers conflating Jews with Israel.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

I'll happily concede that I went off on a rant that can be seen as an attempt to derail the thread. For this I sincerely apologize because it wasn't my intention and I fully understand where you're coming from. I also won't deny the recent spike in antisemitic acts.

I honestly think that antisemitism will never go away, racist assholes being racist assholes, just waiting for the slightest opportunity to vent out. I believe that antisemitism has been so deeply woven in the Christian culture throughout the millenias ("tHeY killeD JEsuS", "theY cOntrOl oUR woRLd") that it will never really go away.

However after WWII and especially after 9/11, Islam and Muslims have overtaken the 5th column/external threat trope, by a few light-years. That's where the new far-right has been thriving and betting on. Hatred directed at Muslims/Blacks/Browns. That's where the 21st century western nationalism is being built, that's what currently sells and brings in votes. Not Jew hatred.

The day (I wish it never comes) Jews are actively discriminated when it comes to job and housing opportunities, shot in the streets like dogs and/or bombed to oblivion without anyone batting an eyelid, will be the day where I'll take your thread seriously.

What you currently have is an epidermic reaction to a rogue country behaving... well like a rogue country, and braindead feckers conflating Jews with Israel.

Thanks for saying what you've said. I don't often see people changing their minds on the internet or acknowledging perhaps they were a bit hasty in their response.

I will also happily concede that perhaps I'm a bit naive in regards to Islamophobia and that you and @JPRouve might well be right regarding who is the primary scapegoat.

All I can say is that I see a lot of this from my perspective - what we learnt growing up, what we see and hear online, and the old trope about about us controlling the media that turned into Zionists controlling the media, and the persistent hatred of us that just has never really gone away.

These are different kinds of hate.

As an example, in 2003, Mahathir Mohamed, Malaysian PM said this:

We (Muslims) are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Europeans killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them.

And also has said:

In The Malay Dilemma, he wrote that "Jews are not merely hook-nosed, but understand money instinctively"
In August 1983, Mahathir claimed in a speech that Jews control the international media.[128] In March 1994, he banned the screening of Schindler's List on the grounds that he viewed it as anti-German, pro-Jewish propaganda.[128] During the collapse of the ringgit and the economic crisis in 1997, he made a series of remarks blaming Jews, in particular George Soros, a Jewish "agenda", and "an international Jewish conspiracy" attempting to destroy the economies of Muslim countries.

That kind of thing is what we hear a lot online and has become a lot more mainstream, I believe.

However, in terms of real world impact, your final point regarding active job discrimination and being shot in the streets, well that in particular, that's the one that got to me - I can't really argue against it and how horrible that must be for Muslims.

 

[caid]

I think theres an element of a lot of generic conspiracy theories being historically associated with jews that probably feels like a dog whistle even when its not explicitly linked to them and i would completely overlook and be oblivious of.
Theres a few half truth's like jewish control of international media which is bullshit but they probably have some level of influence at least individually. Or that their agenda is pretty in line with american media who do have a pretty significant level of control. It kind of makes flat dismissal not particularly convincing and its harder to sell a complicated, elaborate system than a boogey man pulling the strings.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

I think theres an element of a lot of generic conspiracy theories being historically associated with jews that probably feels like a dog whistle even when its not explicitly linked to them and i would completely overlook and be oblivious of.
Theres a few half truth's like jewish control of international media which is bullshit but they probably have some level of influence at least individually. Or that their agenda is pretty in line with american media who do have a pretty significant level of control. It kind of makes flat dismissal not particularly convincing and its harder to sell a complicated, elaborate system than a boogey man pulling the strings.

Yep, that dog whistle part is 100% what I mean.

And you're right - it's not like I can deny that we are over-represented in certain spheres - Media, politics and finance, for obvious reasons get a lot of attention, generally for negative reasons as you know,
but no one talks about our over-representation in academic fields.

For example, circa 30% of nobel laureates in the sciences + economics are of Jewish descent (with at least one parent being Jewish) - that is out of physics, an area that we have always have an outsized influence, and in Medicine, Chemistry and Economics.

And for the Turing award (nobel prize equivalent for computer science), it's around 40%.

 

[caid]

Yep, that dog whistle part is 100% what I mean.

And you're right - it's not like I can deny that we are over-represented in certain spheres - Media, politics and finance, for obvious reasons get a lot of attention, generally for negative reasons as you know,
but no one talks about our over-representation in academic fields.

For example, circa 30% of nobel laureates in the sciences + economics are of Jewish descent (with at least one parent being Jewish) - that is out of physics, an area that we have always have an outsized influence, and in Medicine, Chemistry and Economics.

And for the Turing award (nobel prize equivalent for computer science), it's around 40%.

Yeah, its an odd one. I feel like Ireland is over represented in a lot of the same media circles to a lesser extent without the same suspicions and accusations.