Rising anti-semitism across the world

[JPRouve]

I think it's unlikely hate crimes have doubled and the number of bigots haven't, even if only by a bit.
Unchecked hate propaganda online and leaders channelling it, like you say.

Think about it this way. Let's say that there is 6m of bigots in the UK or France. Do you think that a jump from 600 incidents to 2000 incidents is based on a minority of the 6m that decided to act or that the demographic jumped to 12m?

 

[Jippy]

Think about it this way. Let's say that there is 6m of bigots in the UK or France. Do you think that a jump from 600 incidents to 2000 incidents is based on a minority of the 6m that decided to act or that the demographic jumped to 12m?

It's nigh on impossible to know exactly, but seems likely that the number of hardcore bigots willing to carry out hate crimes has increased. With the bile on twitter and messaging from increasingly mainstream political parties who've moved in from the fringes, seems likely the number of more passive bigots has increased too.

 

[HTG]

It's nigh on impossible to know exactly, but seems likely that the number of hardcore bigots willing to carry out hate crimes has increased. With the bile on twitter and messaging from increasingly mainstream political parties who've moved in from the fringes, seems likely the number of more passive bigots has increased too.

There's also an element of apathy that is caused by this. The more present antisemitism or anti Muslim sentiment becomes on social media, the less outrage is caused by it. It just becomes normal at some point and apathy sets in.

 

[JPRouve]

It's nigh on impossible to know exactly, but seems likely that the number of hardcore bigots willing to carry out hate crimes has increased. With the bile on twitter and messaging from increasingly mainstream political parties who've moved in from the fringes, seems likely the number of more passive bigots has increased too.

I can agree with the first assertion but I would suggests that it's an evolution within the subset of the millions of genuinely racist people or a small increase to it. As for twitter, a large amount are bots and their human equivalents. I mentioned it a few months ago but in the last 24-36 months there has been an increase in the amount of dubious tweets and articles which are linked to obscure far right blogs and small publications. I also noticed that on Youtube I periodically get anti-China channels for reasons that can't be explained.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Think about it this way. Let's say that there is 6m of bigots in the UK or France. Do you think that a jump from 600 incidents to 2000 incidents is based on a minority of the 6m that decided to act or that the demographic jumped to 12m?

In the absence of any compelling theory about why bigotry has suddenly become twice as likely than it ever was before to manifest in crimes, we’d have to assume the latter.

Do you have a theory?

 

[JPRouve]

In the absence of any compelling theory about why bigotry has suddenly become twice as likely than it ever was before to manifest in crimes, we’d have to assume the latter.

Do you have a theory?

For 2023, it's pretty easy. The Gaza War was a good excuse for a a few hundred or thousands of people to act. For the stats in question it is reported that the figures were 964 incidents during the fist half of the year and 1978 during the second part of the year. It should also be mentioned that nothing suggests that we are talking about incidents with different perpetrators or incidents that are isolated.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

I can't speak for the first two links you've posted but, given that the ADL's definition of anti-semitism includes anti-zionism, it's not really a surprise they're reporting more anti-semitic incidents.

Which is exactly why I posted the first 2 links. Because of how sceptical certain people would be if I posted certain sources that would be from...you guessed it, Jewish sources that are responsible for tabulating such incidents.
The ADL reported not that long ago a rise of 400% of anti-semitism. If you think all of that rise is attributable to anti-Israel sentiment, I think you are putting your head in the sand, if that is what you are driving at.
Here is another source, which looks pretty independent to me: european union agency for fundamental rights.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

Neo Nazism definitely feels like it’s become more mainstream recently. They’re being empowered by latching onto the general anti-Israeli sentiment.

Agreed, this is exactly why I posted this thread.

 

[That_Bloke]

I would argue that insisting on the rise of antisemitism to be organised for it to „count“ is nitpicking. Because in the end, to those who are affected by it, there’s no comfort in the idea that those acting antisemitic were lone psychos.

I am not nitpicking and take hate crimes very seriously. Just saying that this idea of a global rise of anti-semitism, 30's style, is absolutely hilarious.

And I don’t think we are in a position to say anything like this yet, really. It will be years until we can actually say what the outcomes of this war have been, what organisations might have radicalised or founded because of it and what the consequences were.

The outcome is pretty clear. If History is anything to go by and without a miracle, Palestine is about to be erased with the full blessings and support of the West, especially Germany. This is the most appalling chapter in Western history since WWII.

The West is literally abeiting and unabashedly supporting a genocide. You can dress it any way you like, but that's what we're at, and of course there will be consequences.

And another point I think is important is, that modern terrorism for example relies less and less on organisational structures and is becoming more and more decentralised. Therefore even loners can become part of a global terrorist movement, without ever having been part of an actual group. We see this with ISIS all the time. Their terrorists often never came close to meeting anyone belonging to the group in person. They were just ideologically aligned, influenced by propaganda and carried out their work for them, willing to leave it to ISIS to claim whatever attacks for themselves.

Very true but that's a model that's been running for more than a few decades. That's why I'll always laugh at the notion of Hamas or Hezbollah being "decapitated", although these two have nothing in common with ISIS.

ISIS will never be a significant danger to the Western civilization. Ever. A nuisance, yes. Sometimes with the occasional deaths. But a real threat? Yeah, no.

For such a group to thrive it must have a massive support from the local population, which it does not have and rightfully never will.

I think if we take this development seriously, your argument of a lack of organisation matters less and less.

My argument takes more and more significance once you depart from the idea that Jews are under a continuous, existential threat.

But what irritated me most about your posts is the confidence you seem to have in your own prognosis. No idea where you take that from. The situation right now is so fecked up with so many people paying attention, while so many paths for radicalisation exist now, that didn’t exist a few years ago, that I just don’t see how anyone could confidently say that what’s transpiring right now is something that will go away over time. It could.

I take my prognosis from how international forces are shaped as of now, how the western societies are geared, and how much of a real danger ISIS and its offspring are.

What irritates me the most is how much you focus on threats that will never come to fruit (thank the gods) whilst a people is currently facing the most documented risk of disappearance, with the West fully behind it. I mean this is the third genocide in a row Germany's either enacting or fully complicit with. It just doesn't learn, does it?

It will go away because Europe and the West found a better scapegoat than the Jews. Israel and the West are now allied for a very, very long time and there's no power in this current world able or inclined to make anti-semitism as its main drive. It's absurd and suicidal.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

Is there actually a rise of anti-semitism. People mention it but it's the usual crowd a large bunch of far-right/neo nazis and a smaller bunch of far left anti-capitalists. As far as I can remember if you interact with either groups it will take minutes before they have something to say about jews and money.

Now there is a clear increase of anti-Israel/Israeli sentiment but that's a bit different.

I've quoted some sources throughout this thread. The short answer is yes. You are looking at it anecdotally it seems, but the statistics at large do show there is an alarming increase in anti-semitism.

There is some controversy regarding some Jewish organisations using the IHRA definition of anti-semitism, but the reality is that even if a lot of it is sparked from anti-Israel sentiment, when you see a lot more incidents regarding bombings of synagogues, defacing of Jewish memorials, etc, then it's difficult really to argue against it (I think).

 

[Mogget]

Which is exactly why I posted the first 2 links. Because of how sceptical certain people would be if I posted certain sources that would be from...you guessed it, Jewish sources that are responsible for tabulating such incidents.
The ADL reported not that long ago a rise of 400% of anti-semitism. If you think all of that rise is attributable to anti-Israel sentiment, I think you are putting your head in the sand, if that is what you are driving at.
Here is another source, which looks pretty independent to me: european union agency for fundamental rights.

Just wanted to point out the ADL is probably not a good source to use on this topic in recent times.

Some of it is definitely attributable to anti-Israel sentiment due to their actions but it's obviously quite hard to work out exactly how much.

 

[JPRouve]

I've quoted some sources throughout this thread. The short answer is yes. You are looking at it anecdotally it seems, but the statistics at large do show there is an alarming increase in anti-semitism.

There is some controversy regarding some Jewish organisations using the IHRA definition of anti-semitism, but the reality is that even if a lot of it is sparked from anti-Israel sentiment, when you see a lot more incidents regarding bombings of synagogues, defacing of Jewish memorials, etc, then it's difficult really to argue against it (I think).

As I said earlier, if you assume that there is a healthy percentage of antisemites, let's say 10% of the population. In a country like the UK it would lead to roughly 6m people, a jump from 6 hundred incidents to 2000 isn't actually an indication that anti-semitism is rising, a more likely scenario is that 500 to 1500 out of the 6m found the motivation to be a bit more active than usual. And in this case the increase follows the Gaza War. The alternative being that you don't believe that 1 or 2 percent of antisemites decided to act and that instead the amount of antisemite has more than doubled.

I used the UK has an example but it's the same thing everywhere.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

As you should be. Ireland belongs to the few countries in Europe that stand on the right of History alongside Spain, Norway, Sweden and Portugal.

There's been a deliberate conflation between criticism of Israel and its Nazi-like policies toward the Palestinians, and the abject, undying anti-semitism that has been prevalent in Europe and the US throughout the centuries, albeit in an infinitesimal measure nowadays.

Given the state of mind of the world and particularly Europe and the West, I'm having a hard time giving any credit to this "rise of anti-semitism". If any, Jews are safer in any part of the West and the rest of the world, to an extent, than Israel. Any wrong word about Israel in the West could effectively mean the end of anyone's career, especially when they're high profile.

The US and Germany to their eternal shame have already passed laws that basically forbid any kind of criticism of Israel, and the mainstream western coverage of what's happening in Gaza would make Goebbels proud. The US and the West are pretty much enabling and supporting whatever Israel does without any limits, including genocide. There's been uneasy collusions and alliances, Ribbentrop-Molotov style between the certified anti-semitic European far-right and Israel under the motto "The enemy of my enemy is friend".

Aside from isolated acts from lunatics, in reaction to the Gaza genocide (or not), who have no firm ground to stand on nor any kind of widespread support among the populations, this so-called rise of anti-semitism is a myth and a scarecrow.

You're having a hard time giving any credit to the 'rise of anti-semitism' because of some biases.
Using Nazism-related terms to talk about some Zionist conspiracy (hint - we used to hear the 'Jewish conspiracy' a lot more), even if there *is* some truth in that does not do you any favours when you are talking about hate speech and hate crimes which is what has motivated this thread, which was created by a Jewish person who doesn't identify as a Zionist.

Here are some independent links for you: gov.uk, fra

 

[johnnyteutonic]

Yes I have, the odd time before October last year and a bit more since. Mostly of the “Jews basically own/run America” type variety, encountered most recently in the classroom (I’ve been teaching the history of the Israeli-Palestinian problem). And once or twice a bit more sinister.

That said, whatever issues Ireland might have with antisemitism are nothing compared to a good few other states I can think of, many of which are on far better terms with Israel these days. And when it comes to targets of Irish racism, Jews probably rank well below many other groups.

I've been hearing the 'Jews control the media narrative' since I started using the internet.
Now it's transmogrified into the 'Zionists control the media' narrative.
Is there some truth in that Zionists have a disproportionate weight in the media? I would definitely say yes.
The conflation of anti-semitism and anti-Zionism and the weaponisation by *both sides* just adds more fuel to the fire and detracts from the overall message, which I hope shouldn't need to be spelled out to others in this thread (not you).

 

[johnnyteutonic]

Just wanted to point out the ADL is probably not a good source to use on this topic in recent times.

Some of it is definitely attributable to anti-Israel sentiment due to their actions but it's obviously quite hard to work out exactly how much.

I have used some other sources throughout this thread for that very reason.
The thing is, is that it's difficult to find reportage on this topic from sources that are not Jewish-affiliated because unsurprisingly, Jewish-affiliated organisations are responsible for a lot of that reportage.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

As I said earlier, if you assume that there is a healthy percentage of antisemites, let's say 10% of the population. In a country like the UK it would lead to roughly 6m people, a jump from 6 hundred incidents to 2000 isn't actually an indication that anti-semitism is rising, a more likely scenario is that 500 to 1500 out of the 6m found the motivation to be a bit more active than usual. And in this case the increase follows the Gaza War. The alternative being that you don't believe that 1 or 2 percent of antisemites decided to act and that instead the amount of antisemite has more than doubled.

I used the UK has an example but it's the same thing everywhere.

And I'll refer you to what Jippy said in response to that point (i did not see that post).
It's difficult for me to respond as so many people are here that seem to be sceptical about this, which makes me wonder why they are sceptical in the first place.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

I take my prognosis from how international forces are shaped as of now, how the western societies are geared, and how much of a real danger ISIS and its offspring are.

What irritates me the most is how much you focus on threats that will never come to fruit (thank the gods) whilst a people is currently facing the most documented risk of disappearance, with the West is fully behind it. I mean this is the third genocide in a row Germany's either enacting or fully complicit with. It just doesn't learn, does it?

It will go away because Europe and the West found a better scapegoat than the Jews. Israel and the West are now allied for a very, very long time and there's no power in this current world able or inclined to make anti-semitism as its main drive. It's absurd and suicidal.

The scapegoat hasn't gone away for multiple millennia, what makes you think it will go away any time soon?

As for getting irritated talking about anti-semitism, whataboutism and deflecting it to that issue is not what this thread is about. Can't it be possible to talk about this issue without using derision and Nazi associated symbolism? because it comes across as quite inflammatory to me.

 

[JPRouve]

And I'll refer you to what Jippy said in response to that point (i did not see that post).
It's difficult for me to respond as so many people are here that seem to be sceptical about this, which makes me wonder why they are sceptical in the first place.

I already addressed it. The stats that you shared are only a count of antisemitic and antizionist incidents, they say nothing else. Now I have no issue assuming and speculating based on these numbers but I will ask you to actually engage and not just repeat figures that you are using out of context.

Logically, we are talking about a couple of thousands of incidents in countries where dozens to hundred of thousands of people are directly affiliated to Neo Nazi and very far right groups that's ignoring the mainstream nationalists, then you easily have millions of people with antisemite sentiments that are spread across the political spectrum. In reality you only need 1 or 2 percent of the existing demographic to act after a particular current event to see incidents skyrocket.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if overall there are more antisemites but it would be nowhere near an increase of 100%.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

I already addressed it. The stats that you shared are only a count of antisemitic and antizionist incidents, they say nothing else. Now I have no issue assuming and speculating based on these numbers but I will ask you to actually engage and not just repeat figures that you are using out of context.

Logically, we are talking about a couple of thousands of incidents in countries where dozens to hundred of thousands of people are directly affiliated to Neo Nazi and very far right groups that's ignoring the mainstream nationalists, then you easily have millions of people with antisemite sentiments that are spread across the political spectrum. In reality you only need 1 or 2 percent of the existing demographic to act after a particular current event to see incidents skyrocket.

Now I wouldn't be surprised if overall there are more antisemites but it would be nowhere near an increase of 100%.

Obviously de-noising the trend from the overall anti-semitic sentiment is difficult and yes of course a significant proportion of that is attributable to following a 'shock event' (as we call it in statistics).
I wouldn't be surprised as well if the figures are definitely disproportionate to reality, but generally, we take a small sample size, and we use the law of large numbers law of large numbers to extrapolate.

I should point out that the ADL reports 400% increase in these incidents. The conversation then becomes how much of that is to do with the IHRA definition of anti-semitism being adopted.
I am also pointing out here in other posts I've just made that both sides weaponise anti-semitism.

 

[2cents]

I've been hearing the 'Jews control the media narrative' since I started using the internet

Yes, you will encounter this even here on the Cafe often enough. But generally the internet is a cesspool of hate. It bothers me far more to come across this stuff in person.

 

[Frosty]

I've been hearing the 'Jews control the media narrative' since I started using the internet.
Now it's transmogrified into the 'Zionists control the media' narrative.
Is there some truth in that Zionists have a disproportionate weight in the media? I would definitely say yes.
The conflation of anti-semitism and anti-Zionism and the weaponisation by *both sides* just adds more fuel to the fire and detracts from the overall message, which I hope shouldn't need to be spelled out to others in this thread (not you).

The Czar's secret police have been more influential then they could ever have imagined.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

Yes, you will encounter this even here on the Cafe often enough. But generally the internet is a cesspool of hate. It bothers me far more to come across this stuff in person.

Yes, fair point regarding it happening in person.
I don't really leave the house that much these days as my job is effectively remote.
But thank you for acknowleding the 'jews control the media' narrative is quite present on this forum as well, because I have seen it quite a bit myself.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

The Czar's secret police have been more influential then they could ever have imagined.

Yep 100%, that damned Elders of the Protocol of Zionism.

 

[Frosty]

Yep 100%, that damned Elders of the Protocol of Zionism.

To respond to your main point - Jew hatred has never really gone away in Western Europe. We have had this for centuries. The security measures some Jewish cultural centres, synagogues and schools have to undertake is staggering.

Plenty of racists live quietly. Then an event emboldens them and they all make their racism public. It isn't just anti Semitism. Last summer's riots in the UK are another example of long held beliefs springing forth due to a news event and outcry.

 

[VorZakone]

The Czar's secret police have been more influential then they could ever have imagined.

I'm not sure it was ever really proven that Tsarist secret police were really behind it.

 

[JPRouve]

Obviously de-noising the trend from the overall anti-semitic sentiment is difficult and yes of course a significant proportion of that is attributable to following a 'shock event' (as we call it in statistics).
I wouldn't be surprised as well if the figures are definitely disproportionate to reality, but generally, we take a small sample size, and we use the law of large numbers law of large numbers to extrapolate.

I should point out that the ADL reports 400% increase in these incidents. The conversation then becomes how much of that is to do with the IHRA definition of anti-semitism being adopted.
I am also pointing out here in other posts I've just made that both sides weaponise anti-semitism.

The issue is that you are not sampling and you are using raw statistics out of context.

To respond to your main point - Jew hatred has never really gone away in Western Europe. We have had this for centuries. The security measures some Jewish cultural centres, synagogues and schools have to undertake is staggering.

Plenty of racists live quietly. Then an event emboldens them and they all make their racism public. It isn't just anti Semitism. Last summer's riots in the UK are another example of long held beliefs springing forth due to a news event and outcry.

That was my point. And you only need a very small portion of the habitual racists to see statistics skyrocket.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

The issue is that you are not sampling and you are using raw statistics out of context.


That was my point. And you only need a very small portion of the habitual racists to see statistics skyrocket.

I have given much context to the stats in this thread. There have also been many surveys that are used regarding anti-semitic trends - not just raw statistics. One can extrapolate from those surveys.
If you are talking specifically about hate crime posts in the U.K. - that is not the only source that is available.
And I think you might want to read through the rest of my post as I've given context regarding the IHRA definition of anti-semitism.
The issue is that if I post sources from Jewish-affiliated organisations, they are met with derision, which is why I do acknowledge this point.
Nevertheless, there is a rising trend, and a significant part of that comes from the shock event We are talking about.
Doesn't mean that shouldn't be taken seriously. Hence, why I made the thread.

 

[That_Bloke]

You're having a hard time giving any credit to the 'rise of anti-semitism' because of some biases.
Using Nazism-related terms to talk about some Zionist conspiracy (hint - we used to hear the 'Jewish conspiracy' a lot more), even if there *is* some truth in that does not do you any favours when you are talking about hate speech and hate crimes which is what has motivated this thread, which was created by a Jewish person who doesn't identify as a Zionist.

Here are some independent links for you: gov.uk, fra

There's no bias when it comes to genocide and I've closely followed this conflict for more than 25 years, thank you very much.

I do not believe in any international conspiracy, be it Zionist, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Alien or whatever.

I do however firmly believe that Israel and its society are anachronistic, colonial in their very essence and by definition utterly racist, taking Apartheid to a whole other level.

You just can't have a democracy if its premise is based on the pre-eminence of an ethnic/religious group. The indoctrination and selective History teaching beginning from Kindergarten and continuous glorification of the military, the overwhelmingly accepted, casual racism and normalized lack of acknowledgment of any value to Palestinian lives enhance this very fact.

I firmly believe that Israel in its current iteration is an expansionist, ethno-fascist state with certifiable Nazi tendencies. If it didn't dawn on some who weren't up to date, the last 15 months should have made it crystal clear.

I firmly believe that we are witnessing one of the most shameful episodes of History, which sees the former victims of the Holocaust turn into modern day übermenschlich executioners, with the full support of the countries which saved them and pledged on a "Never Again".

I firmly believe that the path Israel has chosen to walk since 1967 is a dead-end that might lead to its own self-destruction.

I firmly believe that any other country behaving like Israel would've been bombed to oblivion, a long, long time ago, by the very same countries that currently support it.

I firmly believe that the West has forsaken its last bit of credibility by defending the indefensible, and it will bite them in the rear end at some point.

And I firmly believe in the fact that this "rise of anti-semitism" is strictly bound to the Gaza genocide and how Israel is currently behaving.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

To respond to your main point - Jew hatred has never really gone away in Western Europe. We have had this for centuries. The security measures some Jewish cultural centres, synagogues and schools have to undertake is staggering.

Plenty of racists live quietly. Then an event emboldens them and they all make their racism public. It isn't just anti Semitism. Last summer's riots in the UK are another example of long held beliefs springing forth due to a news event and outcry.

Yes the Jewish school I went to had security guards in front of the school. This was from '99-'05.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

There's no bias when it comes to genocide and I've closely followed this conflict for more than 25 years, thank you very much.

I do not believe in any international conspiracy, be it Zionist, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Alien or whatever.

I do however firmly believe that Israel and its society are anachronistic, colonial in their very essence and by definition utterly racist, taking Apartheid to a whole other level.

You just can't have a democracy if its premise is based on the pre-eminence of an ethnic/religious group. The indoctrination and selective History teaching beginning from Kindergarten and continuous glorification of the military, the overwhelmingly accepted, casual racism and normalized lack of acknowledgment of any value to Palestinian lives enhance this very fact.

I firmly believe that Israel in its current state is an expansionist, ethno-fascist state with certifiable Nazi tendencies. If it didn't dawn on some who weren't up to date, the last 15 months should have made it crystal clear.

I firmly believe that we are witnessing one of the most shameful episodes of History, which sees the former victims of the Holocaust turn into modern day übermenschlich executioners, with the full support of the countries which saved them and pledged on a "Never Again".

I firmly believe that the path Israel has chosen to walk since 1967 is a dead-end that might lead to its own self-destruction.

I firmly believe that any other other country behaving like Israel would've been bombed to oblivion, a long, long time ago, by the very same countries that currently support it.

I firmly believe that the West has forsaken its last bit of credibility by defending the indefensible, and it will bite them in the rear end at some point.

And I firmly believe in the fact that this "rise of anti-semitism" is strictly bound to the Gaza genocide and how Israel is currently behaving.

You are using whataboutisms once again in most of this post. This thread is about anti-semitism and the rise especially related to the new right, and you are choosing to de-rail it to talk about Israel and I have explained that these are not mutually exclusive conversations where one has to deflect to talking about Israel rather than talking about anti-semitism as an issue.
I have acknowledged that it is difficult to de-couple the spikes in anti-semitism from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the human rights violations that are occurring there.

I do have to question whether you do care about anti-semitism it all.
Using the rise of anti-semitism in quotes is itself quite derisory.
The bias I am talking about is not to do with genocide - it's the fact you are talking about Israel and have no interest in talking about anti-semitism which is the bias, whether you are conscious of it or not.
In contrast, note that the second or third post I made in this thread talks about islamophobia as well.

I also asked you why you think that the west will find another scapegoat when it hasn't for multiple millennia?
No answer there....

 

[JPRouve]

You are using whataboutisms once again in most of this post. This thread is about anti-semitism and the rise, and you are choosing to de-rail it to talk about Israel and I have explained that these are not mutually exclusive conversations where one has to deflect to talking about Israel rather than talking about anti-semitism as an issue.
I do have to question whether you do care about it all.
Using the rise of anti-semitism in quotes is itself quite derisory.
The bias I am talking about is not to do with genocide - it's the fact you are talking about Israel and have no interest in talking about anti-semitism which is the bias, whether you are conscious of it or not.
In contrast, note that the second or third post I made in this thread talks about islamophobia as well.

I also asked you why you think that the west will find another scapegoat when it hasn't for multiple millennia?
No answer there....

"The West" is currently using Islam as its main target.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

Shouldn't this be in the CE Forum?

What has Christian Eriksen done to deserve that?

 

[2cents]

But thank you for acknowleding the 'jews control the media' narrative is quite present on this forum as well, because I have seen it quite a bit myself.

I’ve gone back and forth with myself on here over the years as to whether to ignore this stuff or if it’s worth engaging with to some degree. I’m still not really sure, although in other contexts beyond the Cafe, i.e. in a classroom setting, it obviously needs to be addressed.

Ultimately it’s a cultural/societal issue akin to other forms of racism, but also distinct in some ways (as are those other forms in their own ways). So i find it hard to single out random individuals or a place like the Cafe as long as the problem remains an inherent element of the Western (and increasingly global) cultural heritage that continues to shape our societies.

I like the following from an interview with David Feldman of Birkbeck University:

Antisemitism “can be likened to a reservoir of water, accumulating over time, with some elements diminishing while new ones are added…​

​

…When I refer to the ‘reservoir’, I’m speaking about a cultural phenomenon that transcends geographical boundaries. Antisemitism, I believe, has been present in Christian culture for roughly two millennia. Today it’s not solely a Western, European, or North American issue; it’s part of a global common culture. This ‘reservoir’ idea conceives of culture as a resource. This perspective, I believe, is crucial for understanding antisemitism. Often, we perceive antisemitism as an issue affecting someone else, never ourselves. However, it’s a resource that a very wide range of individuals, groups and institutions have tapped into overtime…​

​

……a crucial aspect of addressing antisemitism involves recognising that we are confronting not only ideological Jew-haters, the overt antisemites, but also the more pervasive cultural phenomenon of antisemitism. This is a significant distinction: while we often think of antisemites as ‘the other guys’, antisemitism is, in fact, woven into our common culture.”​

 

[harms]

Under-rated how much twitter under lack of moderation/Elon's personal moderation has changed in the big accounts.

40,000 likes on this one, and I've seen screenshots of similar posts getting more.

I genuinely don't understand what this screenshot is about (and what does it suppose to illustrate). I suppose some sort of logical fallacy by ChatGPT... is it as simple as if the jews were killed in gas chambers they didn't die from typhus that was prevalent in concentration camps? I just don't get the logic of that sequence of questions. Not that I should, probably.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

"The West" is currently using Islam as its main target.

Have a look at my third post:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rising-anti-semitism-across-the-world.486145/#post-32754811

'Currently' is the key term here.
The scapegoat (and there can be multiple scapegoats) has not been removed and has continued to remain, especially with the far-right.
I would also argue you are ignoring the huge noise on social media platforms, minimising it in your earlier post.
Talk about the 'Zionists control the media' (which is remarkably similar to the 'Jews control the media' narrative I've heard my whole life) really shows that Jews are being scapegoated, does it not?

 

[johnnyteutonic]

I’ve gone back and forth with myself on here over the years as to whether to ignore this stuff or if it’s worth engaging with to some degree. I’m still not really sure, although in other contexts beyond the Cafe, i.e. in a classroom setting, it obviously needs to be addressed.

Ultimately it’s a cultural/societal issue akin to other forms of racism, but also distinct in some ways (as are those other forms in their own ways). So i find it hard to single out random individuals or a place like the Cafe as long as the problem remains an inherent element of the Western (and increasingly global) cultural heritage that continues to shape our societies.

I like the following from an interview with David Feldman of Birkbeck University:

Antisemitism “can be likened to a reservoir of water, accumulating over time, with some elements diminishing while new ones are added…​

​

…When I refer to the ‘reservoir’, I’m speaking about a cultural phenomenon that transcends geographical boundaries. Antisemitism, I believe, has been present in Christian culture for roughly two millennia. Today it’s not solely a Western, European, or North American issue; it’s part of a global common culture. This ‘reservoir’ idea conceives of culture as a resource. This perspective, I believe, is crucial for understanding antisemitism. Often, we perceive antisemitism as an issue affecting someone else, never ourselves. However, it’s a resource that a very wide range of individuals, groups and institutions have tapped into overtime…​

​

……a crucial aspect of addressing antisemitism involves recognising that we are confronting not only ideological Jew-haters, the overt antisemites, but also the more pervasive cultural phenomenon of antisemitism. This is a significant distinction: while we often think of antisemites as ‘the other guys’, antisemitism is, in fact, woven into our common culture.”​

That quote is excellent.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
The Otherising of the Jews is an issue I do think some people in the world seriously struggle with.
And regarding your point as to engage in this issue or not, this is why I find it difficult, and was hesitant to make this thread in the first place (note that this is the first thread I've posted on this forum), because I am emotionally engaged in this issue and find it difficult to argue with multiple users simultaneously about this topic.

On a different note, I would also point out that I struggled with Otherising Palestinians when I was growing up because of the education I had.
Only in the last couple of years have I woken up to the education I had and the biases it had against the Palestinians.
This has made me feel quite guilty.
I am not saying this to virtue signal but I now see it as a moral imperative to do what I can to help with what is happening in Gaza, and I have now donated to UNICEF and to the Islamic Relief Australia for this reason.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

"The West" is currently using Islam as its main target.

Can it even be a scapegoat if from the West's point of view, if the vast majority of casualties from mass socio-political-religious motivated attacks in the West have come from extreme Islam?

There's no bias when it comes to genocide and I've closely followed this conflict for more than 25 years, thank you very much.

I do not believe in any international conspiracy, be it Zionist, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, Alien or whatever.

I do however firmly believe that Israel and its society are anachronistic, colonial in their very essence and by definition utterly racist, taking Apartheid to a whole other level.

You just can't have a democracy if its premise is based on the pre-eminence of an ethnic/religious group. The indoctrination and selective History teaching beginning from Kindergarten and continuous glorification of the military, the overwhelmingly accepted, casual racism and normalized lack of acknowledgment of any value to Palestinian lives enhance this very fact.

I firmly believe that Israel in its current iteration is an expansionist, ethno-fascist state with certifiable Nazi tendencies. If it didn't dawn on some who weren't up to date, the last 15 months should have made it crystal clear.

I firmly believe that we are witnessing one of the most shameful episodes of History, which sees the former victims of the Holocaust turn into modern day übermenschlich executioners, with the full support of the countries which saved them and pledged on a "Never Again".

I firmly believe that the path Israel has chosen to walk since 1967 is a dead-end that might lead to its own self-destruction.

I firmly believe that any other country behaving like Israel would've been bombed to oblivion, a long, long time ago, by the very same countries that currently support it.

I firmly believe that the West has forsaken its last bit of credibility by defending the indefensible, and it will bite them in the rear end at some point.

And I firmly believe in the fact that this "rise of anti-semitism" is strictly bound to the Gaza genocide and how Israel is currently behaving.

Why 67?

Also the second bolded isn't true, China, Russia and many African tinpot states have committed atrocities on the scale if not worse than Israel and nothing has happened because of lack of motivation to do so or the price being too high to do something about it.

I broadly agree with everything else, with some nuances here and there.

 

[Frosty]

I'm not sure it was ever really proven that Tsarist secret police were really behind it.

That's going to bother me now. I'll have to do some research into it's authorship.

 

[JPRouve]

Can it even be a scapegoat if from the West's point of view, if the vast majority of casualties from mass socio-political-religious motivated attacks in the West have come from extreme Islam?

Yes, it is a scapegoat when you are building your political narrative around the Great Replacement theory.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I genuinely don't understand what this screenshot is about (and what does it suppose to illustrate). I suppose some sort of logical fallacy by ChatGPT... is it as simple as if the jews were killed in gas chambers they didn't die from typhus that was prevalent in concentration camps? I just don't get the logic of that sequence of questions. Not that I should, probably.

A common form of Holocaust denial is that the [exaggerated number of] Jewish deaths very mainly accidents and a result of disease. Also, that the gas chambers either weren't real or were used for other purposes than killing (often also that it would be impossible for the claims to be true). The sequence of questions and answers is supposed to support this narrative.