Rio - SAF's greatest defender?
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Gona go with no on that one....I agree. I don't think that it is even close between them. Rio was on the level of Nesta and Maldini. Vidic was on the level of Terry. Stronger physically and better in the air but not as good on reading the game.
I've realised that's the same one. I can't find the other one sorry.
If we were coming up against the best players around, who have the ability to cut through teams with a couple of passes I'd have Rio in my team ahead of Vidic by a long shot. Vidic is suited to the more direct style of the premier league and has turned in many monstrous performances too. I just think Rio has an extra level to deal with the smartest attackers in the world.
Exactly the sort of comment I was talking about.
Vidic's positioning and reading of the game is so underrated by you it seems.
No that's great thanks. I have just shoved it down a colleague's throat. To hear him speak, you'd think those two bad games against Torres were the only ones he ever played.
We've been incredibly lucky to have so many great defenders during SAF's term. Rio to me is undoubtedly the standout due to his longevity and for the form he showed consistently for 3 years. He was simply the best in the world at that time. And I say this as one of his biggest critics when we signed him.
Pushing it a bit there!
I am not saying that he was bad at it (he was better than Terry for example) but he wasn't as good as Rio on it. Vidic is the better last second tackler but Rio read the game better IMO.
indeed.
Completely disagree. Neither of them is in a different class to the other. I think vidic is better, some will say top is. But here's no gulf at all. I definitely think vidic is "all that".
Vidic's reading of the game is just as good as rio's for me but he's the defender who has to go and attack the ball whereas rio would sweep behind, so it's a perception thing.
The difference between them for me is that vidic is better tackler and that rio is quicker and has better balance. That's about it. Not much between the two. And like I said, I think vidic is better.
if his reading is as good why does he need to make so many more last ditch tackles. Don't tell me it is just because he is attacking the ball and Rio is sweeping. One could also argue he attacks the ball more because Rio is a better reader of the game, and hence deals better with the fall out.
While this will go on endlessly, try answering how Ferdinand went for matches together without committing a foul while Vidic's rate is much higher if they both read the game equally well?
Because they're different type of defenders. Vidic will do everything possible to get to the ball even if it at times does mean fouling. Also he's slower than rio sometimes pace troubled him more and hence he fouls. Rio on the other hand had the tendency of being pushed around at times by physically tough strikers. They're both great and neither was or ever will be perfect.
Can't agree to be honest. What was, say, Nesta better at than Rio of 2008? What could Rio have actually done better? You look at the players he come up against back then - Torres at his height, Drogba, Messi, Eto'o, etc... - and not a single one of them got anything out of him. He's probably the only player I've ever seen that Messi has run at a few times and not beaten once, and even Messi was singling him out for praise after those ties. I honestly don't think the majority of fans properly appreciate the level he reached back then; it was absolute perfection and he was every bit as good as Ronaldo. That in itself should be a sufficient argument given the extraordinary season Ronaldo had.
I think Vidic has been a clear step above Terry, mind you. I was more partial to Carvalho at times to be honest, though that's not to say Terry wasn't top drawer also. Both benefited a lot from Makalele.
Barca were terrible that year. And we were camped in our own half. The combination of the two made it hard for messi against us. When he and barca got better our centre backs were no match for him one on one. In fact put messi at his peak vs rio at his peak one on one and messi would make rio look average which is no slight on rio because no defender can handle messi in that scenario. ( obviously not talking about one off)
I was just going to say the same thing, McGrath, Bruce, Pallister, Stam, Berg, Johnsen, (Vastly underrated player imho) Rio, Vidic, Irwin, Neville x2, Brown, Paddy...............and Ive probably missed some...its a hell of a list.
They still trampled all over us in midfield during those games and had the lion's share of possession, with Messi going at Rio and Evra a few times each. I'd say Messi back then was as dangerous a dribbler one on one as he is now to be honest (though not as good as he was 2-3 years back), so it's still highly impressive that Rio came out of that unscathed.
It's anyone's guess as to what would've happened with the two at their peaks. Rio's the best defender I've ever seen in terms of one on ones though, and if I had the choice of any defender to go up against Messi it would undoubtedly be him.
I know how good Rio was.
He wasn't as good as Nesta though and if you said that outside of the Caf it would get laughed at, in fact it probably would on the Caf as well. Nesta is the best centre back since Baresi and quite possibly top 5 of all time - just behind Baresi, Passarella and Scirea - Rio is not in that league.
As for what Nesta did better than Rio, its difficult to pin point because they have a lot of similarities. The basic way I would explain it is that Nesta did everything Rio did, but to a higher level. The main attributes of a prime Rio were his fantastic positioning and his ability on the ball, but Nesta was better at both.
Nesta was clearly a better marker IMO, he had a nack of knowing exactly when to get tight to a forward and when to drop off in a way that Rio didn't.
As for facing Messi, Nesta was 35 here I think
Our whole team came out unscathed. I'm sorry but I never saw rio single handedly deal with messi all on his own or anything. As a team we kept him out. When his team was functioning he gave rio and vidic all sorts of problems. I can't believe you actually think rio could handle messi one on one even at his peak. Come on man. This is messi were talking about. It wouldn't be a contest.
I shouldn't have asked it as question, really (it was rhetorical
); I've seen enough of Nesta to judge and had my good fix of Eurosport and the such back in the day when the Italian league was strong. So classy... so composed and, most importantly, so clever, but the point is that, when Rio was at his height (which is the part of his career I'm referring to), he reached an overall standard of performance aside from individual attributes that I've never seen bettered. I simply can't think of anything Nesta could've done in Rio's scenario that would've noticeably bettered his performances across that entire year, or anything that would've made him visibly a fair bit better in general. In fairness though, I will agree actually with your point regarding Nesta's marking; Rio would stand off a little more I think knowing that the defender wouldn't be able to beat him, where as Nesta would be better in the sense of closing down and pressuring the opponent when the ball was on the deck.That being said, and perhaps you disagree, I think Rio at his best was slightly better in the air. It used to become a sad running joke with people I went down to the game with just because I'd be constantly watching to see if Rio would have any sort of lapse in this respect. I'd then spend half my time telling people who were (rightfully) raving on about Vidic in the air that Ferdinand was basically just as good if you'd just watch him carefully enough. I think Vidic has reached new levels since then, mind.
Anyway, just to clarify, I'm not saying Nesta isn't a bigger 'great'; it's just that, unless I missed something when I was too young to watch or really take in his very early Lazio years (I don't even know if it was televised in the UK back then actually), I've never seen him 'better' what Rio offered as a complete package that year. I think on that basis his peak deserves to be seen as being at least comparable to anything Nesta has produced.
amolbhatia said:
I never meant to imply that. It wasn't really being used as a significant piece of evidence so much as a general point to outline how good he is one on one - he skinned Evra and Vidic once each but never Rio. Like I say, as for the two against each other at their peak, I just don't know. Smart money says Messi but it's not something we've ever seen.
The fact that you're not sure who would come out on top between rio and messi shows how much you overrate him. Messi would beat rip him, like he does with every other defender he's faced. Only way to stop messi is too team up on him collectively. One on one he is simply too gifted for rio. I can't believe this is even debatable in your mind.
And rio was never ever as good vidic in the air. How can anyone watch the two and even think that? It's like claiming vidic was quicker the rio.
And rio was never ever as good vidic in the air. How can anyone watch the two and even think that? It's like claiming vidic was quicker the rio.
I'm just not really willing to go down the route of trying to forecast something like that when both are so good at what they do. I have absolutely waxed lyrical about Messi at every opportunity and watch every Barcelona game possible just to see him play, but I still wouldn't like to say he'd 'definitely' rip to shreds one of the best defenders of the last couple of decades. Nothing too controversial there, especially given that I've said the smart money is on Messi.
In 2008, the difference was definitely marginal. His marking in these situations was absolutely masterful and he was always on the receiving end of a cross if Vidic wasn't. The pace situation is not a good comparison; Rio was exceptionally fast for a centre back and had very good acceleration. Vidic has been decent/good in centre back terms on both counts. Regardless of whether you agree with me on the heights Rio reached in this aspect, he was clearly a lot, lot, lot (etc) more than decent/good in the air. World class, no doubt.
Regardless, I say 'basically' because I still think Vidic was better then, but Vidic made a very clear step up in 08/09 in this regard in my opinion, and it was only at that point for me that the difference was highly significant. He became an absolute monstrosity from then onward and actually became so dominant it was amusing. Someone asked the question not long ago about whether there had ever been a better defender than Vidic in the air, and it'd be interesting to know from older posters if there had ever been someone like that.
In 2008, the difference was definitely marginal. His marking in these situations was absolutely masterful and he was always on the receiving end of a cross if Vidic wasn't. The pace situation is not a good comparison; Rio was exceptionally fast for a centre back and had very good acceleration. Vidic has been decent/good in centre back terms on both counts. Regardless of whether you agree with me on the heights Rio reached in this aspect, he was clearly a lot, lot, lot (etc) more than decent/good in the air. World class, no doubt.
Regardless, I say 'basically' because I still think Vidic was better then, but Vidic made a very clear step up in 08/09 in this regard in my opinion, and it was only at that point for me that the difference was highly significant. He became an absolute monstrosity from then onward and actually became so dominant it was amusing. Someone asked the question not long ago about whether there had ever been a better defender than Vidic in the air, and it'd be interesting to know from older posters if there had ever been someone like that.
Nesta?
Messi hasn't faced anyone in the class of Nesta or Maldini as their peak and Rio's about the closest thing to them since. Nesta on the decline dealt with him pretty well and Rio did the same a few years' previous.
Rio is better at getting to the spot, imo, but Vidic is more powerful in the air. Rio in his prime was amazing to watch, you'd think the opposition's tactics were just to punt into onto his head. But as far as power once in the air, Vidic is the best I've seen.
Our whole defence dealt with him pretty well. Because barca were a bit shit at the time and messi was just coming back from an injury as well. And we defended we as a unit of course. The following two times when his team were back on track messi came up on top quite comfortably. When there space to exploit he made our centre back pairing look silly. He even lost him for the header funnily enough.
You really think rio can handle messi one on one ? Seriously? One odd time he'd get a foot in but the rest of the time he'd struggle. You need the whole team closing down space and supply to stop messi. A single defender can't handle him. At least not of the ones I've seen. Unless he has a really bad day of course.
They are not both "so good at what they do". Messi is miles better at what he does.
Reading over this again, I'm a bit confused as to the scope of what is being argued or if anything is even being disagreed upon. I thought Rio against Messi in the context of a game situation with other defenders would be a given when discussing this, with him working as part of a whole defence and occasionally (3/4 times or so?) being one on one with Messi with both players at their peak. This has not happened yet, hence my reservations regarding what would happen. I'm not purporting that Ferdinand would withstand some sort of entire 90 minute barrage from Messi; any speculation as to how peak Rio would fare was always going to be in context of how the team set sets up.
That being said, I don't see how it can be interpreted as being ridiculous that Ferdinand could come out on top here, even if Messi went at him a fair few times in a game. It's not like Messi goes past his run of the mill defender every time he gets the ball, never mind someone of the quality of Rio at his best. He does beat his man a lot of the time and usually works some sort of space even when he doesn't, but it's being talked about here like there's some sort of 100% certainty that Messi would dick on Rio. Rio might've been part of a defence that contained him in general, yet he still occasionally held him off one on one, hence Messi's comments about Rio being hard to beat. Regardless though, we saw Patrice Evra completely and utterly isolated against Messi at times - he was beaten once quite convincingly yet came out on top the other times. There are just no guarantees here when you're talking about defenders of this class.
Again, it should be stressed that Messi back then was still a class act and by far the best dribbler in world football. It's the objective and purpose his dribbling that changed a lot subsequently and not his ability to beat a single man. There are other things to contend with now like his movement off the ball and his greater finishing ability, but I just don't see anything wrong with not drawing any conclusions about how the two would fare against each other at their peaks. Ferdinand was an amazing defender, and isn't bad now either.
That being said, I don't see how it can be interpreted as being ridiculous that Ferdinand could come out on top here, even if Messi went at him a fair few times in a game. It's not like Messi goes past his run of the mill defender every time he gets the ball, never mind someone of the quality of Rio at his best. He does beat his man a lot of the time and usually works some sort of space even when he doesn't, but it's being talked about here like there's some sort of 100% certainty that Messi would dick on Rio. Rio might've been part of a defence that contained him in general, yet he still occasionally held him off one on one, hence Messi's comments about Rio being hard to beat. Regardless though, we saw Patrice Evra completely and utterly isolated against Messi at times - he was beaten once quite convincingly yet came out on top the other times. There are just no guarantees here when you're talking about defenders of this class.
Again, it should be stressed that Messi back then was still a class act and by far the best dribbler in world football. It's the objective and purpose his dribbling that changed a lot subsequently and not his ability to beat a single man. There are other things to contend with now like his movement off the ball and his greater finishing ability, but I just don't see anything wrong with not drawing any conclusions about how the two would fare against each other at their peaks. Ferdinand was an amazing defender, and isn't bad now either.
Nesta past his peak dealt with him pretty well 1v1. Rio at his peak was at pretty much the same level. That's the jist of what I was saying.
That is actually very true. Defenders of Rio's class are hard to come by these days. There are plenty of pretenders around, Luiz, Hummels, Ramos - defenders who are physical specimens and good on the ball playing as the "5" but lack actual defensive nous.
That was when he was still an upcoming defender. After he came to us he was a prima donna.
Rio almost has a Roger Federer-esque quality to him. Graceful, elegant, any other similar adjective you care to use - they all apply to Rio. His only flaw is his annoying tendency to hoof the ball up the pitch (so at odds with the other aspects of his game.)
On a side note: how refreshing to read a thread like this, with its thoughtful arguments and more-or-less civil disagreements, especially after browsing the mindfeck that is the Transfer forum.
On a side note: how refreshing to read a thread like this, with its thoughtful arguments and more-or-less civil disagreements, especially after browsing the mindfeck that is the Transfer forum.
Rio played messi in 2009 and couldn't get close to him. Not even in the air funnily enough. My point is that you need either messi off form or a team collectively to nullify him and those around him. He gets his usual yard ahead of you and someone else gets a foot in. That's how you stop messi. Rio can't handle him purely one on one on his own. It's systems that help stop players like him, individuals can't do it from what I've seen. He's tied us in knots enough times (with rio) to know.
As for nesta, he got the better of messi once on a one on one. And he just about got his toe on it. Messi almost scored there. There was inches in it. I'm sure that has happened loads of times before. But it's actually the way Milan defended, sitting back and ensuring messi has not one but three defenders infront of him always, which worked for them.
That's the point of this. A defence sitting camped in their half keeping messi out is not, for me, proving all that much. Chelsea did a good job on him too but I doubt anyone will use that to claim luiz or whoever played in defence can take messi. Had they come out and played and messi got space got take on individuals rather than completely back 4s, there's no way the likes of luiz and Cahill could deal with him.
Why is that relevant at all. He's a defender and it was a last ditch tackle, of course there is going to be inches in it because of the small margins in something like football.
It was an exceptional tackle at 35 years old against a prime Messi
Well if Messi jumps and Rio doesn't then yeah he will not get close to him in the air. Too much was of that header in the CL final, the Xavi cross was brilliant and Messi jump impressive but he was unchallenged. Medias and fans made it seem like he outjumped both Rio and Vidic.
In that game Nesta came up against Messi a good few times and won the battle hands down. Just as he did before at his peak against Ronaldo.
Messi is incredible but he's not a player who simply can't be stopped 1v1 against a defender with exceptional reading of the game, timing and (crucially) the pace to keep up. Not for me.
Rio at his peak is the best defender I've ever seen, and that's including Nesta. In his best years, Rio basically had everything Nesta had, but was even classier on the ball, technically, and with added pace. He was a beast. Perfection in defense. A lot of our fear factor back then was coming from the Rio/Vidic partnership, as well as from Ronaldo.
As for the arguments that "well isolate Rio one one with Messi in space and see how he does" that's just simply stupid. Any half clever defender would never be as stupid as to put himself in that sort of position, simply because Messi is the best footballer of his generation and quite possibly ever. And any manager worth his salt would never set himself up to get into those kind of situations, not even if he had Rio/Nesta at the back at their respective peaks. A world class attacker running against a defender one on one in acres of space is dangerous business whenever it happens, doesn't matter how good the defender is.
Rio though is the master of avoid putting himself in situations he can't handle. It's what made him so damn impenetrable at his peak. And also what helps him adapt his game and still play very, very well now most of his pace is gone. Rio vs Messi in the 08 CL tie is as good as it gets for taking Messi out of a match. Doesn't matter if Messi didn't get the length of the field to run against him time and time again, that's not going to happen anyway and is kind of irrelevant - Rio took him out fair and square of the tie. Brilliant.
As for the arguments that "well isolate Rio one one with Messi in space and see how he does" that's just simply stupid. Any half clever defender would never be as stupid as to put himself in that sort of position, simply because Messi is the best footballer of his generation and quite possibly ever. And any manager worth his salt would never set himself up to get into those kind of situations, not even if he had Rio/Nesta at the back at their respective peaks. A world class attacker running against a defender one on one in acres of space is dangerous business whenever it happens, doesn't matter how good the defender is.
Rio though is the master of avoid putting himself in situations he can't handle. It's what made him so damn impenetrable at his peak. And also what helps him adapt his game and still play very, very well now most of his pace is gone. Rio vs Messi in the 08 CL tie is as good as it gets for taking Messi out of a match. Doesn't matter if Messi didn't get the length of the field to run against him time and time again, that's not going to happen anyway and is kind of irrelevant - Rio took him out fair and square of the tie. Brilliant.
Rio didn't challenge him. He lost his marker. It was poor defending. He lost his marker, Torres, when they best us 2-0 too. But oh no, apparently he always made Torres his bitch. Lot of myths regarding rio. Just like the used to be about Rooney earlier. English player thing.