Rio - SAF's greatest defender?

mattsville said:
I get what you are saying, but the dawdling on the ball isn't exclusive to Rio, it's widespread throughout the team, no options in front of you, the current lack of movement and risk free positioning which he is not used to, he got caught out badly on the ball tonight which his experience should have prevented though regardless of the lack of options, if he is caught one on one he is done, defo still has a role to play in a fully functional confident team where there is not so much pressure coming on to him, in certain fixtures... He has a lot of distractions off the pitch though so I can't see him hanging around for too long
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Like I said earlier, physically it's all there. He looks in great shape. I'm not sure about everything else. He keeps doing that silly dink that rarely works.
 
manutddjw said:
There's got to be something more to Rio's shocking form this season. I just can't see how a player who was playing nearly every game for us including being used mid week last season, is all of a sudden past it and on a Giggs schedule in such a short period of time. Last season he was quite rightly being showered with praise and now, in the span of 3 months he's suddenly turned into the awful player we see today? I'm not having that. If age or injuries was catching up to him, we would've seen signs of it last season, which we didn't because for the most part he was very good.
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I'm not sure. But I guess at this age you're potentially always near a sudden downhill. Look at Scholes, completing a great comeback with us, a terrific half season. The summer came and went, and the following season he was already a spent force.
 
I could maybe have some sympathy for him if he wasn't being a prat on twitter, openly criticising his manager because he doesn't like having to work hard to get in the team, constantly trying to push his face into the media spotlight wherever he can, etc.

Instead, I have none. It's not even as if the worst parts of his performance have anything to do with his age. It stems more from him swaggering around the pitch like he's some kind of king, and refusing to change despite constantly costing his side possession, vital goals, and endlessly needing to be bailed out by team mates.

That part of the game last night where he strolled up the pitch, got tackled, and then jogged back while his team mates all had to bust a gut desperately stopping a goal from happening because of his arrogant idiocy, just about summed him up.

There is absolutely nothing to like or sympathise about him at the moment.
 
And to be honest, it's really no great surprise the team has drifted into cruise control and now can't seem to kick out of it, when he's one of the senior figures in the squad.

I'm honestly begining to think the entire squad and manager would benefit if he wasn't there.
 
I've seen some suggest that we keep him on for another season, as he's a senior figure and influential in the dressing room, but is that really the case? If he were to leave at the end of the season, I don't think we would see any detrimental effect in our leadership or maturity.

In fact he actually hinders that somewhat on the pitch, as noodlehair has said, he is far too casual on the pitch, which was fine when he was in his prime, but now his ability on the ball and passing ability isn't what it was. It constantly offers opportunities for the opposition - as seen last night - and requires Evans/Vidic to bail him out.

I just don't see the need for him beyond this season, as it is, it would be good for Evans, Smalling and Jones to assume more responsibility at the back, particularly the former who should be seen as an experienced and senior member of the squad now.
 
I don't think anyone has suggested he should get another year in this form. It's another little thing that's gone against Moyes. Rio looked great for most of last season, gives him a contract and he turns to shit. And not just the odd mistake or anything, it's gone to complete and utter shit in 4-5 months. Looks like a dip in form that he'll never recover from to me.
 
noodlehair said:
I could maybe have some sympathy for him if he wasn't being a prat on twitter, openly criticising his manager because he doesn't like having to work hard to get in the team, constantly trying to push his face into the media spotlight wherever he can, etc.

Instead, I have none. It's not even as if the worst parts of his performance have anything to do with his age. It stems more from him swaggering around the pitch like he's some kind of king, and refusing to change despite constantly costing his side possession, vital goals, and endlessly needing to be bailed out by team mates.

That part of the game last night where he strolled up the pitch, got tackled, and then jogged back while his team mates all had to bust a gut desperately stopping a goal from happening because of his arrogant idiocy, just about summed him up.

There is absolutely nothing to like or sympathise about him at the moment.
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Far too harsh!

I generally think he's been one of the more positive characters in the media, able to say something besides the cliches that most people spout on a regular basis as if on cruise control.

He was rusty yesterday and could have cost us a goal. He played much better in the second half though, which seems to go unnoticed here, as it is so much more fun to criticise these days.

Basically, I just have to disagree with your entire post. I like him very much as a player, but he isn't playing at the top of his game these days. Let's hope he turns that around. He showed last season that he can still be one of the very best; I doubt fitness can have such an impact as he looks fitter than ever.
 
noodlehair said:
I could maybe have some sympathy for him if he wasn't being a prat on twitter, openly criticising his manager because he doesn't like having to work hard to get in the team, constantly trying to push his face into the media spotlight wherever he can, etc.

Instead, I have none. It's not even as if the worst parts of his performance have anything to do with his age. It stems more from him swaggering around the pitch like he's some kind of king, and refusing to change despite constantly costing his side possession, vital goals, and endlessly needing to be bailed out by team mates.

That part of the game last night where he strolled up the pitch, got tackled, and then jogged back while his team mates all had to bust a gut desperately stopping a goal from happening because of his arrogant idiocy, just about summed him up.

There is absolutely nothing to like or sympathise about him at the moment.
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Would you say the same about Patrice Evra? Because most of this applies to him at various points over the past 2-3 seasons. I've seen multiple players displaying the same characteristics this campaign too. It isn't something confined solely to the mind of Rio Ferdinand.

The discription of him "swaggering about like a king" is a bit harsh Noodle, he's always been like that. Nobody complained when he was owning the world's best strikers. He was terrific last season and he still retained a swagger, a touch of class. He's bailed enough of his colleagues out in the past to expect a bit back. We aren't talking about some kind of brick shithouse, break your ankles type defender. Rio has basically been the blueprint for the modern ball-playing central defender, you can't just switch that shit off.
 
Rossa said:
Far too harsh!

I generally think he's been one of the more positive characters in the media, able to say something besides the cliches that most people spout on a regular basis as if on cruise control.

He was rusty yesterday and could have cost us a goal. He played much better in the second half though, which seems to go unnoticed here, as it is so much more fun to criticise these days.

Basically, I just have to disagree with your entire post. I like him very much as a player, but he isn't playing at the top of his game these days. Let's hope he turns that around. He showed last season that he can still be one of the very best; I doubt fitness can have such an impact as he looks fitter than ever.
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Sorry but I don't think it is.

There's nothing "positive" to take from a player boasting publicly about only having to put 80% into games due to being so uch better than everyone else...that's twattish and alarming enough if you're at the top of the league, but when in 8th place? Baffling.

He's also come out and publicly criticised Moyes's team selection/training methods, with the criticism seeming to be based around the idea he has to work hard all week because he doesn't know whether he's playing or not. Again, an almost skillful combination of twattishness and bafflingly poor attitude.

What redeems a player (at least to an extent) in these situations is if he is doing the business on the pitch or at least putting himself on the line for the cause...yet Rio is playing so well that there's page after page of people on here suggesting he should retire. The rusty excuse doesn't really work when his performance yesterday was in keeping with the rest of his performances this season, of which there have been plenty enough to keep him from getting "rusty".

His lack of urgency on the ball in particular has been a noticable hindrence to the rest of the team for a long while now. If he had anything about him he'd have addressed it.

When last season did he show he could still be one of the very best? He was ok in the second half of the season. That was about it. His most noticable act last season was the repeated whining about wanting to play for England, and then choosing not to when he was picked.
 
Comsmit said:
Would you say the same about Patrice Evra? Because most of this applies to him at various points over the past 2-3 seasons. I've seen multiple players displaying the same characteristics this campaign too. It isn't something confined solely to the mind of Rio Ferdinand.

The discription of him "swaggering about like a king" is a bit harsh Noodle, he's always been like that. Nobody complained when he was owning the world's best strikers. He was terrific last season and he still retained a swagger, a touch of class. He's bailed enough of his colleagues out in the past to expect a bit back. We aren't talking about some kind of brick shithouse, break your ankles type defender. Rio has basically been the blueprint for the modern ball-playing central defender, you can't just switch that shit off.
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I don't think Evra's anywhere near the player he was, but I woudn't say his performances have dropped to anywhere near the level of Rio's, no. He'll still charge about like a maniac al game, his legs just don't allow him to be in three places at once anymore. He does mouth off a lot but he will come out in support of the club/manager, not in criticism.

Who are these multiple players who've been slagging off their manager's team selection policy to the media and costing us multiple games due to basic, schoolboy errors? There's a lot that need to step up instead of hiding, which is a point I made last week. None who's performances have been as consistently as bad or casual as Rio's. Again,

I don't get where this terrific last season myth stems from. He had a poor first half to the season and an ok second one. He was probably our third best centreback behind Evans and Vidic (who was only fit for half the season)...and Jones and Smalling may only have been behind by virtue of almost never getting the chance to play there!

He hasn't always swaggered around as he does now at all. He used to bring the ball out from the back or have enough urgency about him to give it to a team mate. Now he just strolls around sideways with it and then "Passes" it up the pitch to no one, or occasionally straight to an opposition player, putting his own team under pressure and making it near impossible for us to play with any kind of tempo. This isn't "ballplaying"...I can piss around with a football and then casually pass it to no one. Anyone can. The idea this is god enough for a Manchester United player is worrying.

Also, his ability to bail team mates out in the past doesn't make it any less likely that we'll lose games if he is constantly needing to be bailed out now. This is an extremely silly reason to keep playing someone. Ridiculous in fact. It's the road to finishing the season in 9th place...whilst only having to give 80%.

I would never say a player's "finished", but he has a LOT of stepping up to do both on and off the pitch. If I had a list of players and their rating at the moment, he'd be comfortably at the bottom...and it's not like there aren't a large number with "should do better" next to their name at the moment.
 
noodlehair said:
Sorry but I don't think it is.

There's nothing "positive" to take from a player boasting publicly about only having to put 80% into games due to being so uch better than everyone else...that's twattish and alarming enough if you're at the top of the league, but when in 8th place? Baffling.

He's also come out and publicly criticised Moyes's team selection/training methods, with the criticism seeming to be based around the idea he has to work hard all week because he doesn't know whether he's playing or not. Again, an almost skillful combination of twattishness and bafflingly poor attitude.

What redeems a player (at least to an extent) in these situations is if he is doing the business on the pitch or at least putting himself on the line for the cause...yet Rio is playing so well that there's page after page of people on here suggesting he should retire. The rusty excuse doesn't really work when his performance yesterday was in keeping with the rest of his performances this season, of which there have been plenty enough to keep him from getting "rusty".

His lack of urgency on the ball in particular has been a noticable hindrence to the rest of the team for a long while now. If he had anything about him he'd have addressed it.

When last season did he show he could still be one of the very best? He was ok in the second half of the season. That was about it. His most noticable act last season was the repeated whining about wanting to play for England, and then choosing not to when he was picked.
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I don't read his tweets, so my two cents on that matter stems from what I read on official United websites - you may therefore be more well informed than I am.

Could you post the tweet where he said he only had to play at 80% - that sounds ridiculous, if true and not ironical.

The part where he criticised Moyes sounded more like he was frustrated with not knowing, which is fair enough, but he should tell Moyes, not the press - I really dislike that behaviour.

Last season he was voted into the PL-team of the year; Ferguson claimed it was his best season ever (to which I disagree, as did Rio), but it makes your argument about him being only OK in the second half seem a bit silly.
 
Could Rio possibly consider taking his brand, err game, to LA or NY?

Or would he sign with another English or European club?

Rio loves the money so I can see him going wherever the money is best.
 
It's sad to see him in this kind of form. He's one of the best CB's I have ever seen but I have to say his time is up. I would be more than happy to go into next season with Vidic, Evans, Smalling, Jones and Keane as our CBs.
 
Rossa said:
Could you post the tweet where he said he only had to play at 80% - that sounds ridiculous, if true and not ironical.

The part where he criticised Moyes sounded more like he was frustrated with not knowing, which is fair enough, but he should tell Moyes, not the press - I really dislike that behaviour.
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Here you go Rossa

 
His time here is almost up. He's been a great defender for us over the years.

Needs to be careful with what he says though. Managers can react badly to perceived criticism and he's very dispensable right now.
 
I thought that was him saying that the top teams can't play at 100% intensity in every game because to win the title you have to be consistent. Wearing yourself to the bone in every single game despite being able to win comfortably at '80%' results in burnout (thus the 'pace yourself' hashtag).

Which sounds sensible to me, if inarticulately put across.
 
I think him punting the ball long has stemmed from his injuries and age. There's more immediate risk running out with the ball and picking out a midfielder yourself. It's a natural instinct to have, because he knows if we lose it in a dangerous area he's got feck all chance of recovering, and it's even worse when he's playing with Vidic. He's scared basically so he just gets rid of it.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
I thought that was him saying that the top teams can't play at 100% intensity in every game because to win the title you have to be consistent. Wearing yourself to the bone in every single game despite being able to win comfortably at '80%' results in burnout (thus the 'pace yourself' hashtag).

Which sounds sensible to me, if inarticulately put across.
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it was ill-timed which is at the core of what noods was saying. He tweeted that when we were in 8th place. As fans we expect our players to give their all in every game. Such logic as he put it becomes tolerable when the confidence is high in the team therefore, it feels like you dont have to put 100% in every game to win it.

I was more furious with his recent quotes about Moyes releasing team selections so late because I felt it was unnecessary and did nothing to help our current situation.
 
Gladiator said:
Here you go Rossa

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Thanks!

I don't see him saying that he can play at 80% and be just as good as the rest. He says the team can play at 80% when confidence is high. Obviously, confidence isn't even high at the moment. Watching United under Ferguson, I think he is spot on that United often played at 80% against lesser opposition.

Am I wrong for not thinking that was bad?
 
Rossa said:
Thanks!

I don't see him saying that he can play at 80% and be just as good as the rest. He says the team can play at 80% when confidence is high. Obviously, confidence isn't even high at the moment. Watching United under Ferguson, I think he is spot on that United often played at 80% against lesser opposition.

Am I wrong for not thinking that was bad?
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I'm not sure right/wrong is the best way to go about it. We just require a different mentality imo which is partly why i think it came in bad taste. It just seems like Rio is still stuck in the fergie era. For someone with his experience, it's quite shocking.
 
There's no reason for elite footballers not to give 100% in all games, unless they're managing injuries for the good of the team. League 1 players do more running the Premier League players - on average 1km per game more - as a result of longer sprints. If PL players train to the same fitness (which I'd assume they do) they can probably go up a level during a game, physically. But the PL is fairly easy-going in terms of fitness because passing the ball is the focus (better leagues make more successful passes).
 
I don't see why people are having kittens over that tweet. It's true. It's unlikely a top team will play at 100% intensity in every game otherwise they'll burn out and fall off the pace by the end of the season. It's also unnecessary.
 
He is correct, but it's the wrong time for him to post that tweet.
He winds up the fans when he writes that while we're doing crap and he and the rest of the team doesn't look bothered.
 
noodlehair said:
I could maybe have some sympathy for him if he wasn't being a prat on twitter, openly criticising his manager because he doesn't like having to work hard to get in the team
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Did this happen? I think people take some things so far out of context. I don't think there was any open criticism of Moyes in what Rio said about the team selection thing, and I also don't think it had anything to do with him not wanting to work hard to get in the team.

Sometimes I think when someone does something that is annoying (like Rio's recent performances) everything else about them becomes a reason for people to unfairly pick at them.

If you've spent 11+ years having 2-3 days to mentally prepare for a match that you knew you would be paying in, and then all on a sudden you only have a couple of hours or so, its bound to have an effect. He was obviously asked a question (which wasn't printed) about what sort of things SAF and Moyes do differently, and he gave one. I think its overly touchy to take it as criticism. Was it criticism when the players said they were doing a lot more running in training and some found it difficult? How is this any different?

I also don't see where you get the impression that he doesn't want to work hard to get into the team. He might not be playing well but Giggs has games like that on occasion too but I'd never think it was because he wasn't working hard. Rio isn't perfect. He's sadly having fewer and fewer good performances these days, and gets himself into trouble on occasions on the pitch because he dwells on the ball far too much but I don't for a second think he's being as vindictive as people are making out.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
I thought that was him saying that the top teams can't play at 100% intensity in every game because to win the title you have to be consistent. Wearing yourself to the bone in every single game despite being able to win comfortably at '80%' results in burnout (thus the 'pace yourself' hashtag).

Which sounds sensible to me, if inarticulately put across.
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This would hold some merit if we had actually been playing well this season and comfortably winning games without hitting 100%. We have heard dozens of times over the last few seasons about how "United haven't hot top gear" or "It's not vintage united" but still picking up the points.

When we are sitting 9th (8th?) in the table and looking dire every game though, those sorts of comments just reel of arrogance and complacency.
 
Agreed with LR7, I don't see any issue with Rio's statement. Ok, timing isn't great but that happens. Anything that a United player says or does at the moment will be spun to suit the media and especially anything regarding Moyes.

Rio has been a great professional for the club and will continue to be so until the day where the manager says you're no longer needed.
 
I thought his time was up when he gifted the ball to Bellamy to make it 3-3 in 09/10. He's had good and bad spells since then, but I don't think he looks arsed about playing for Moyes.
 
Not having any of this not playing for Moyes shit. Petty excuse. They are professional footballers who want to get out there and win.
 
What about AVB at Chelsea? Did the old guard act professionally?

It's either extremely arrogant or naive to think it couldn't happen at United.
 
Goooose said:
What about AVB at Chelsea? Did the old guard act professionally?

It's either extremely arrogant or naive to think it couldn't happen at United.
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They had the mentality that they were the top dogs at the club, managers went, they stayed, they were the club. Under Sir Alex, the manager was the boss. I have seen nothing to suggest that the players are trying less because Moyes is the manager and they want him gone.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen here, of course not. It's just I have not seen anything to suggest it at all and have not seen any of our players been guilty of it at previous clubs.
 
One of our best defenders ever. In his prime he was a total Rolls Royce of a player, but he'll retire in the summer. He looks every inch a 35 year old now.
 
His form is nothing to do with Moyes.

The guy physically can't run. It's similar to Gary Neville in his last season.
 
RK said:
There's no reason for elite footballers not to give 100% in all games, unless they're managing injuries for the good of the team. League 1 players do more running the Premier League players - on average 1km per game more - as a result of longer sprints. If PL players train to the same fitness (which I'd assume they do) they can probably go up a level during a game, physically. But the PL is fairly easy-going in terms of fitness because passing the ball is the focus (better leagues make more successful passes).
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To be fair lower league teams to feck all work off the ball in terms of pressing and closing down (c.f. the 600 yards of space you get on the ball) and that's the real tiring work. A few sprints down the wing will take it out of you but not to the extent that chasing the game pressing and harrying opponents will.
 
I see Nood's point, we are struggling. he should keep his head down and do his job as one of the senior figures in the dressing room, coming out and making comments abut effort when we are not doing well and criticizing the team selection method when he is not playing well is not needed
 
Gladiator said:
it was ill-timed which is at the core of what noods was saying. He tweeted that when we were in 8th place. As fans we expect our players to give their all in every game. Such logic as he put it becomes tolerable when the confidence is high in the team therefore, it feels like you dont have to put 100% in every game to win it.

I was more furious with his recent quotes about Moyes releasing team selections so late because I felt it was unnecessary and did nothing to help our current situation.
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Walrus said:
This would hold some merit if we had actually been playing well this season and comfortably winning games without hitting 100%. We have heard dozens of times over the last few seasons about how "United haven't hot top gear" or "It's not vintage united" but still picking up the points.

When we are sitting 9th (8th?) in the table and looking dire every game though, those sorts of comments just reel of arrogance and complacency.
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Yeah I understand that the context is important here. If he'd said it in pre-season after we'd just won the league people would probably have thought nothing of it, or seen it as an interesting little insight, but in the midst of all this it was a stupid point to make and badly worded to boot.
 
LR7 said:
I don't see why people are having kittens over that tweet. It's true. It's unlikely a top team will play at 100% intensity in every game otherwise they'll burn out and fall off the pace by the end of the season. It's also unnecessary.
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Basically what I'm thinking. You have to know when to speed up and when to slow down. THe same applies for single matches where you slow down the tempo and not play at 100% if you don't have to.
 
Back page of the Times tomorrow says Moyes has decided not to offer him a new deal
 
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