Replacing de gea should be the priority

Champ said:
And that's where I stop, it wasn't inches, he went with an outstretched leg and couldn't get it, suggesting it was probably a few feet away, it's actually very difficult to tell and judge distances on camera, but it was certainly more than 'inches'.

You are being incredibly harsh with the second goal, he made a very good stop, pushed it out away from goal, there was no way he was holding that shot. Ridiculous to claim otherwise.
The shot was close to his feet, he was also blinded slightly by players in his way, it was actually a very good stop.
He done what any other GK would do in that situation and clawed it away from goal, the Brighton player was quickest to react.
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He didn't actually go for it, he reacted late in thinking "I should go for this" pretty much as the ball was already past him (which in line is the problem, it's not his instinct to go for the ball which is why you see instances like this so often with him) but in reality didn't actually try to cut it out. It's probably less than 2ft in front of him, if he moves as the ball is played like most goalkeepers it's cut out in his sleep.

Second goal I'm not being harsh on, I've analysed as I'd analyse it for a goalkeeper of any level. I've advised what most goalkeepers would do in that situation if you don't believe that then it's up to you. But I can't remember any coach at any level ever trying to teach me to push the ball a) across the face of my own goal and b) into a complete blind spot (unless it's out of play), and nor did it come up as an optimum approach on any coaching course I attended. I've even given the reasons he was slow getting down to the shot as he wasn't set and not criticised him for it, he had a straight line view of the ball from the moment Trossard cut inside so there were no players in his way. But I'm sure you know better with your "push it away from goal" which is what you teach 5 year olds who obviously can't control where they push the ball and don't have the reaction speed to deal with rebounds because they are five years old.
 
Needs replacing and I've said it for a long time. He won't come off his line so the defence has to play deeper. This in turn puts the midfield under more pressure. His distribution is absolutely terrible and he doesn't command his area at all
 
JB7 said:
He didn't actually go for it, he reacted late in thinking "I should go for this" pretty much as the ball was already past him (which in line is the problem, it's not his instinct to go for the ball which is why you see instances like this so often with him) but in reality didn't actually try to cut it out. It's probably less than 2ft in front of him, if he moves as the ball is played like most goalkeepers it's cut out in his sleep.

Second goal I'm not being harsh on, I've analysed as I'd analyse it for a goalkeeper of any level. I've advised what most goalkeepers would do in that situation if you don't believe that then it's up to you. But I can't remember any coach at any level ever trying to teach me to push the ball a) across the face of my own goal and b) into a complete blind spot (unless it's out of play), and nor did it come up as an optimum approach on any coaching course I attended. I've even given the reasons he was slow getting down to the shot as he wasn't set and not criticised him for it, he had a straight line view of the ball from the moment Trossard cut inside so there were no players in his way. But I'm sure you know better with your "push it away from goal" which is what you teach 5 year olds who obviously can't control where they push the ball and don't have the reaction speed to deal with rebounds because they are five years old.
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So, if a GK can't hold the ball they should what? Parry into the middle of the goal? Back to where the balls come from? Or palm away from goal, like you are taught at every level of GK training?

Funny how you try and demean my point of view, almost as if you are a bit defensive about your own, which suggests a little bit of doubt creeping in.

You are perfectly entitled to you view, I just disagree and feel you are being overly harsh for the sake of it.
I see no mention of how De Gea was at fault in any write up about the Brighton game,at all, anywhere, which is interesting to me, as I'm yet to hear any pundit, ex professional or so called expert back up your point of view in that.

Now, the Brentford game is another story :lol:
 
Champ said:
So, if a GK can't hold the ball they should what? Parry into the middle of the goal? Back to where the balls come from? Or palm away from goal, like you are taught at every level of GK training?

Funny how you try and demean my point of view, almost as if you are a bit defensive about your own, which suggests a little bit of doubt creeping in.

You are perfectly entitled to you view, I just disagree and feel you are being overly harsh for the sake of it.
I see no mention of how De Gea was at fault in any write up about the Brighton game,at all, anywhere, which is interesting to me, as I'm yet to hear any pundit, ex professional or so called expert back up your point of view in that.

Now, the Brentford game is another story :lol:
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No, I have no doubt whatsoever about what I'm saying, I've been incredibly clear as to the failings of De Gea for that goal. In terms of demeaning your view, I've explained that you do begin training goalkeepers at a very young age to always push shots away from goal for the reasons previously mentioned but as they grow that instruction greys somewhat depending upon the situation. I've not disputed that generally speaking away from goal is optimum however not when that involves going across the face of your own goal and into a blind spot, because you then have no control of what follows and have no chance of stopping any rebound shot because you've effectively left an attacker with an open goal. So in that instance, yes he's better off parrying the ball directly in front of him for two reasons, first, Martinez is there to deal with the ball which 9 times out of 10 he would do as he's alive to it while Welbeck is facing away from goal and second, due to only pushing the ball a short distance in front of him he gives himself a chance, however small, of stopping any rebound as he's still covering part of the goal. And that's without even acknowledging his initial positioning which was the reason he couldn't hold the ball in the first place.

Edit: Pundit tweet below on his handling contributing to the goal.
 
grahamo said:
Needs replacing and I've said it for a long time. He won't come off his line so the defence has to play deeper. This in turn puts the midfield under more pressure. His distribution is absolutely terrible and he doesn't command his area at all
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Sums up what everyone sees. His shot stopping has been his only redeeming quality and that is not what it used to be. I just don’t get the fact he chooses to stay planted on his line for the majority of set pieces. He’s had numerous GK coaches over the years and none have tried to improve that part of his game. He’s simply bullied in the box. He’s not a small guy anymore either.
 
peridigm said:
Sums up what everyone sees. His shot stopping has been his only redeeming quality and that is not what it used to be. I just don’t get the fact he chooses to stay planted on his line for the majority of set pieces. He’s had numerous GK coaches over the years and none have tried to improve that part of his game. He’s simply bullied in the box. He’s not a small guy anymore either.
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Or maybe he's not listening? He certainly doesn't put in the work to overcome those defieciences. It's all on him.

Think he's a better politician in the dressing room and around the club, because the way he's been able to get away with all this mediocrity it's astonishing to me.
 
giggs-beckham said:
What's Heaton like?
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Seems a nice guy. Let's go for it :lol:

Edit - got my threads mixed up.

I would start him anyway if we can't find anyone. Just want someone to do the basics right. He seems ok. Clearly not great, but functions ok which is better than throwing the balls in your net as Dave seems to want to do nowadays.
 
McGrathsipan said:
He's not a legend.
He's a long serving player. Probably over stayed at this point
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We call Quinton Fortune, Darren Fletcher and Philip Neville legends. Our 4 time Sir Matt Busby award winner was better then the lot. So yes he is a legend
 
devilish said:
We call Quinton Fortune, Darren Fletcher and Philip Neville legends. Our 4 time Sir Matt Busby award winner was better then the lot. So yes he is a legend
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Phil Neville a legend? :lol:

Wow thats me pissing meself lauging!
 
peridigm said:
Sums up what everyone sees. His shot stopping has been his only redeeming quality and that is not what it used to be. I just don’t get the fact he chooses to stay planted on his line for the majority of set pieces. He’s had numerous GK coaches over the years and none have tried to improve that part of his game. He’s simply bullied in the box. He’s not a small guy anymore either.
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To be fair some of the earlier coaches did try to improve those areas of his game, such as Frank Hoek who gave a very interesting interview a few years back on resistance he faced from De Gea and the other goalkeepers at the club about the methods of training at the time, focusing around how he wanted them training with the team the vast majority of the time whereas they were used to isolated training even though he did not believe it was improving them. However, after he left, the club brought in the coach De Gea had worked with at Atletico in to win favour when De Gea was looking to leave the club and he very quickly reverted to type.
 
JB7 said:
No, I have no doubt whatsoever about what I'm saying, I've been incredibly clear as to the failings of De Gea for that goal. In terms of demeaning your view, I've explained that you do begin training goalkeepers at a very young age to always push shots away from goal for the reasons previously mentioned but as they grow that instruction greys somewhat depending upon the situation. I've not disputed that generally speaking away from goal is optimum however not when that involves going across the face of your own goal and into a blind spot, because you then have no control of what follows and have no chance of stopping any rebound shot because you've effectively left an attacker with an open goal. So in that instance, yes he's better off parrying the ball directly in front of him for two reasons, first, Martinez is there to deal with the ball which 9 times out of 10 he would do as he's alive to it while Welbeck is facing away from goal and second, due to only pushing the ball a short distance in front of him he gives himself a chance, however small, of stopping any rebound as he's still covering part of the goal. And that's without even acknowledging his initial positioning which was the reason he couldn't hold the ball in the first place.

Edit: Pundit tweet below on his handling contributing to the goal.
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Mr Harrison isn't a pundit, he is a mathematician who bases his analysis on figures rather than actual context.

In that thread he even alludes to the fact that that Sanchez was far worse in his handling, but got away with it due to better defending, there is the context.
We wouldn't be discussing a solitary goal which no one has pin pointed on DDG, if Fred had reached first to the rebound.
Again, there's the context. In fairness Harrison states this, and states that a parry that doesn't lead to a goal is not always a good parry. I'd question this logic as a GK is there to stop shots from going in first and foremost, they cannot be expected to make a mathematical equation in their heads in a split second, and therein lies the issue with using solely numbers to back a claim up.

Harrison has even states himself recently that GK as a position cannot alone be determined yet by figures, as there is too much unexpected issues that happen.
What the figures don't take into account is positioning of defenders, positioning of attackers things like that, which play a vital part in this situation. Harrison himself has alluded to this also online in an article.
 
I really appreciate De Gea. He was our hero last season (alongside Ronaldo). He has also made some monumental blunders during his career (which goalkeeper has not?)

Two things I will say

  1. Blaming him alone for the 4:0 at Brentford is irresponsible and completely unfair. They all played very badly and Brentford also exposed us tactically. Interesting analysis here

  2. Eventually we will have to replace De Gea, and possibly - as soon as next season, but when we do I hope his replacement won't be the petulant child with horrible attitude and average talent called Dean Henderson.
 
Champ said:
Mr Harrison isn't a pundit, he is a mathematician who bases his analysis on figures rather than actual context.

In that thread he even alludes to the fact that that Sanchez was far worse in his handling, but got away with it due to better defending, there is the context.
We wouldn't be discussing a solitary goal which no one has pin pointed on DDG, if Fred had reached first to the rebound.
Again, there's the context. In fairness Harrison states this, and states that a parry that doesn't lead to a goal is not always a good parry. I'd question this logic as a GK is there to stop shots from going in first and foremost, they cannot be expected to make a mathematical equation in their heads in a split second, and therein lies the issue with using solely numbers to back a claim up.

Harrison has even states himself recently that GK as a position cannot alone be determined yet by figures, as there is too much unexpected issues that happen.
What the figures don't take into account is positioning of defenders, positioning of attackers things like that, which play a vital part in this situation. Harrison himself has alluded to this also online in an article.
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So we'll discount the entirety of the post where I've laid out all the various issues with the goal conceded in plain English, not using "mathematical equations" or "figures", because you don't like the tweet I used right at the end of it because you asked for a pundits view. Seems completely reasonable.

But then if you think any parry is a good parry then I don't really know what to say.
 
JB7 said:
So we'll discount the entirety of the post where I've laid out all the various issues with the goal conceded in plain English, not using "mathematical equations" or "figures", because you don't like the tweet I used right at the end of it because you asked for a pundits view. Seems completely reasonable.

But then if you think any parry is a good parry then I don't really know what to say.
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Right you are sausage.

Best not to say anything, that'd be better for all concerned I reckon.
 
NewGlory said:
I really appreciate De Gea. He was our hero last season (alongside Ronaldo). He has also made some monumental blunders during his career (which goalkeeper has not?)

Two things I will say

  1. Blaming him alone for the 4:0 at Brentford is irresponsible and completely unfair. They all played very badly and Brentford also exposed us tactically. Interesting analysis here

  2. Eventually we will have to replace De Gea, and possibly - as soon as next season, but when we do I hope his replacement won't be the petulant child with horrible attitude and average talent called Dean Henderson.
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Its not compleatly his fault of course, its also ETH's naivety in setting us up with very short and not very physical side against the very tall and very physical Brentford.

But that video mentions the biggest issue with de gea in a ETH system in that he isnt good enough on the ball to be classed as an extra player in possesion, making it very easy to press us, they don't have to press de gea just everyone else and either we lose it because noone is free or we send it back to de gea who either plays someone a hospital pass, or its one of his famous not very long floaty long clearance into midfield to be contested (first goal against Brighton was partly caused by this).

Its not a question of we will replace him eventually, two games in and he is fecking our attempts at playing out from the back up compleatly. We can not do it, and if we can't do it we can't play how ten hag wants us too, which makes appointing a progressive manager utterly pointless and actually we will.likeley be far worse than we ever were under ole because of it.
 
It is impossible to replace De Gea in two weeks. Our priority should be to build a tactic around players we currently have, not around our aspirational playing style.

We need to stop leaking goals and the manager has to find a way to do that with the players he has. Replacing De Gea is a problem for the next summer window.
 
He's the least of our problems, honestly.

We're talking about a team with Maguire, Shaw, Dalot, Fred, McTominay, Rashford and mopey Ronaldo, all in(or close to) the starting XI. I can accept that we should look for a better goalkeeper, but there are at least 6 other spots in the starting XI causing more problems.
 
I can agree with a lot of what is being said here but it does not really alter the fact that right now we have no serviceable midfield, RB options that would struggle for a game in the Championship and a desperate need to add another attacker all on a poundland budget thanks to our magnanimous ownership. Factor in that this close to the close of the window the only options available are career backups and veterans and I just don't think we can address this in the market now.

I think we need to commit to not extending DDG and allowing him to leave on a free at the end of the season which would be addition by subtraction thanks to the massive reduction to our salary budget. In the interim can we look inside? I don't think Heaton would be much of an improvement, a little bit more sure in commanding his area but definitely on the downhill slope in terms of reactions and fitness at his age. I have always been impressed with Kovar in the U23s and we cancelled his loan to keep him at the club, do our more regular youth watchers believe he could do a job at this point?
 
It's a big problem as he seems shot mentally. Think I saw on another United forum that he did some interview and was saying that the team is still feeling the effects of last season - that's a big admission and shows you his state of mind. I dunno. Would really let him sit on the bench for a bit. Heaton can take over for a few games at least.
 
JB7 said:
To be fair some of the earlier coaches did try to improve those areas of his game, such as Frank Hoek who gave a very interesting interview a few years back on resistance he faced from De Gea and the other goalkeepers at the club about the methods of training at the time, focusing around how he wanted them training with the team the vast majority of the time whereas they were used to isolated training even though he did not believe it was improving them. However, after he left, the club brought in the coach De Gea had worked with at Atletico in to win favour when De Gea was looking to leave the club and he very quickly reverted to type.
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I remember that.

Shows you he's also not the smartest cookie because for me, that's the best he ever looked for us. Had he taken all of that training on board and tried to carry on, he'd have been much better for it imho.
 
Mindhunter said:
It is impossible to replace De Gea in two weeks. Our priority should be to build a tactic around players we currently have, not around our aspirational playing style.

We need to stop leaking goals and the manager has to find a way to do that with the players he has. Replacing De Gea is a problem for the next summer window.
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Why bother to bring in a manager with a known philosophy then?

Fact is DDG does not suit a team that wants to press high and play a passing game that requires him to be an option on the ball to build attacks and recycle possesion. That's without looking at his obvious flaws as a keeper.

ETH has a style that requires his keeper to be that kind of player, if it's going to work he has to go.
 
Oranges038 said:
Why bother to bring in a manager with a known philosophy then?

Fact is DDG does not suit a team that wants to press high and play a passing game that requires him to be an option on the ball to build attacks and recycle possesion. That's without looking at his obvious flaws as a keeper.

ETH has a style that requires his keeper to be that kind of player, if it's going to work he has to go.
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Been saying it since the ETH appointment was confirmed, if we stick with de gea we will be fecked.

Most important posistion to sort alongside the DM posistion. But apparently still now people think that its long down the list of priorities. And that maguire is to blame for our defensive woes (despite spurging another wad of cash on another CB already who most definetly isnt suited to the PL and makes us vunerable to high balls)

Its ok though we have GK on the books who is far more capable of playing in an ETH system, shame that we let him rot on the bench behind a joke of a GK stalled his promising career so much so he demanded a loan to guarantee first team football and we let him because someone thought its fine 'De gea is world class obviously look at all those saves last season'.

I mean honestly do we have anyone with any football knowledge whatsoever at the club to ensure really stupid shit like this dosent happen? Obviously not what a joke.
 
If need be, we can go with Heaton for a while.

In terms of transfer activity, the immediate priority clearly needs to be a CDM and a striker.
 
Longshanks said:
Its not compleatly his fault of course, its also ETH's naivety in setting us up with very short and not very physical side against the very tall and very physical Brentford.

But that video mentions the biggest issue with de gea in a ETH system in that he isnt good enough on the ball to be classed as an extra player in possesion, making it very easy to press us, they don't have to press de gea just everyone else and either we lose it because noone is free or we send it back to de gea who either plays someone a hospital pass, or its one of his famous not very long floaty long clearance into midfield to be contested (first goal against Brighton was partly caused by this).

Its not a question of we will replace him eventually, two games in and he is fecking our attempts at playing out from the back up compleatly. We can not do it, and if we can't do it we can't play how ten hag wants us too, which makes appointing a progressive manager utterly pointless and actually we will.likeley be far worse than we ever were under ole because of it.
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Fair enough, but EtH knew who De Gea was and didin't replace him. I think he even said in one interview that De Gea can do what he needs him to do, when asked directly about it. There is no way we can replace De Gea now, definitely not this season. So if he cannot learn - EtH has to adapt his style accordingly - right? What other choice do we have? Can't just be bashing on De Gea and blaming him for everything.
 
DDG needs to go, given his wage bill and profile as a player.

When Fergie signed him I watched Atletico I knew he was a great player. And when the Media were all over him early on I knew he would come good.

Now with DDG the last 3 years has been a "SELL" with him as a keeper because, he's not a modern keeper. The game has changed since we bought a teenager from Atletico.

He's not commanding, his distribution needs work and his "reflex saves" and saving with the feet early on were great, now not so much. We need a top new keeper that can play out from pressure, DDG isn't it.

Early on his reflexes were great, he stopped shots but now they're just fumbles, he spills the ball he doesn't always pick the right option.

His wages can pay for 2 players.
 
De Gea wont be a problem if ETH aren't naive enough to play built from the back with this squad. For that i blame his naivete

80% of our squad arent build for posssesion and slow build up play. Not that that's his fault but it is what it is
 
Longshanks said:
Been saying it since the ETH appointment was confirmed, if we stick with de gea we will be fecked.

Most important posistion to sort alongside the DM posistion. But apparently still now people think that its long down the list of priorities. And that maguire is to blame for our defensive woes (despite spurging another wad of cash on another CB already who most definetly isnt suited to the PL and makes us vunerable to high balls)

Its ok though we have GK on the books who is far more capable of playing in an ETH system, shame that we let him rot on the bench behind a joke of a GK stalled his promising career so much so he demanded a loan to guarantee first team football and we let him because someone thought its fine 'De gea is world class obviously look at all those saves last season'.

I mean honestly do we have anyone with any football knowledge whatsoever at the club to ensure really stupid shit like this dosent happen? Obviously not what a joke.
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I dunno, you'd like to think like that there is.

Perosnally I don't understand how people can't see past the saves even when every other metric puts him as one of the worst keepers in the league.

He's the best paid keeper in the world, rejected the guidance of the only coach who tried to force him to tackle his weaknesses and has regressed every year since.

If you put a keeper who is competent on the ball and a midfielder who can control and pass a ball properly, it would totally transform this teams abiltiy to transition the ball out of defence.
 
Sky1981 said:
De Gea wont be a problem if ETH aren't naive enough to play built from the back with this squad. For that i blame his naivete

80% of our squad arent build for posssesion and slow build up play. Not that that's his fault but it is what it is
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Thing is, United need to become that kind of team. By modern football standards if you want to compete with City, Liverpool, or even in Europe you have to press... you have to make the opposition work for the ball.

The 80% who aren't built for that need to go to mid table teams if they can't do it.

McT, Fred, DDG, Dalot, AWB, Rashford, Martial IMO are all expendable

Maguire obviously needs to stop dithering on the ball and take so many touches, and Shaw needs to be like he was 2 years ago, he's had one good year in 7 at United and even he might be expendable.

United need to modernise through the staffing and players, so the numbers Ragnick came up with isn't far off. Need to Adapt or winning the title won't happen for 15+ years again.
 
Sky1981 said:
De Gea wont be a problem if ETH aren't naive enough to play built from the back with this squad. For that i blame his naivete

80% of our squad arent build for posssesion and slow build up play. Not that that's his fault but it is what it is
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De Gea has been a massive problem for the vast majority of the last four seasons. He's already made numerous mistakes for goals conceded this season, only one of which had anything to do with trying to play out from the back. There were another couple mistakes in preseason as well. This is the new normal from him. A good period for the first few months of last season seems to have blinded people towards that.
 
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