Replacing Carrick this summer is critical

[RoadTrip]

The signing of my dreams would be Veratti. However I don't think we should give up on Blind so soon. He is young, he's intelligent, and he could very well develop. I mean, Carrick himself was not as good as he is at this particular role in his younger years as he is now.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I think Blind is a grand back-up - for both DM and LB (hell, he could be a starter at LB for me) - but he isn't the answer. He's a good footballer, and a very good person to have in the squad, but he's not on the level of Carrick (which some people seem to take as an insult - but it really isn't... Carrick is just an exceptional footballer).

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I think Blind is a grand back-up - for both DM and LB (hell, he could be a starter at LB for me) - but he isn't the answer. He's a good footballer, and a very good person to have in the squad, but he's not on the level of Carrick (which some people seem to take as an insult - but it really isn't... Carrick is just an exceptional footballer).

Pity it has taken until nearing the end of his career for him to appreciated. He is a bloody good player and has been criminally underrated.

 

[McUnited]

I think most people here agree Carrick is an important part of the team. But the fact that the team have lost the last two matches without him appears to have increased his reputation a little two much. Is it not possible that we would have lost them both even with him in the team? Is it not possible that we might have lost more comprehensively? Judge people on the games they play, not on the games they miss.

Remember how much Fletcher's profile was raised by the fact that he didn't play the Champions League final against Barcelona. Or how Januzaj gets better in some people's minds despite not playing.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history.

 

[McUnited]

Pity it has taken until nearing the end of his career for him to appreciated. He is a bloody good player and has been criminally underrated.

One might argue that it is only towards the end of his career that he played at a level worth of appreciation as a 'bloody good player'.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I think most people here agree Carrick is an important part of the team. But the fact that the team have lost the last two matches without him appears to have increased his reputation a little two much. Is it not possible that we would have lost them both even with him in the team? Is it not possible that we might have lost more comprehensively? Judge people on the games they play, not on the games they miss.

Remember how much Fletcher's profile was raised by the fact that he didn't play the Champions League final against Barcelona. Or how Januzaj gets better in some people's minds despite not playing.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history.

We might have lost, but I would rather have had him in the team and have a better chance of winning.

 

[Player Red]

I think the big difference is in how much Blind is willing to commit himself going forward. He will often look to get into the box, whereas Carrick is more likely to remian further back, allowing himself to stay more composed. He reads the game so well because he is usually always facing it and playing with his back to our goal. Blind was often having to chase back to defend.

 

[NinjaZombie]

It'll be easier shaping the team to account for Carrick's pending departure/demise, than finding an exact Carrick clone. After all, he didn't exactly replace Keane.

I agree. I was thinking the same as I read the thread title. Remember when we used to complain how Carrick wasn't quite the Keane replacement we were hoping for?

 

[finneh]

I think most people here agree Carrick is an important part of the team. But the fact that the team have lost the last two matches without him appears to have increased his reputation a little two much. Is it not possible that we would have lost them both even with him in the team? Is it not possible that we might have lost more comprehensively? Judge people on the games they play, not on the games they miss.

Remember how much Fletcher's profile was raised by the fact that he didn't play the Champions League final against Barcelona. Or how Januzaj gets better in some people's minds despite not playing.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history.

Definitely this. Carrick has performed great this season but sometimes correlation does not 100% equal causation. He certainly wouldn't have helped us score against the brick wall that was Chelsea and wouldn't have on his own prevented 3 goals against Everton. Maybe at best we'd be a point and a couple of goal difference better off.

Likewise we had a very poor start to the campaign for a number of reasons, which would not have been rectified by Carrick. His stats are hugely boosted by the fact that he happened to be injured at this point, whereas the likes of Blind look much worse because he featured in them, even though he was one of the best player's during this period.

Also, the fact that Carrick has been very good means we need to replace him? If his injuries become a problem I agree absolutely and we do need someone when he retires, but the likes of Pirlo are over 2 years older than Carrick and are still key to their teams. I'm sure Carrick feels he can go on for at least another season if not a couple, by which time the composition of our squad may be different. Blind may have improved massively and be ready to step in; we may have changed our system and not need a like of like replacement or Van Gaal may see a youth product as having potential.

I saw one poster on here say we need 8 signings after the loss to Everton... Eight. Utterly ridiculous.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Definitely this. Carrick has performed great this season but sometimes correlation does not 100% equal causation. He certainly wouldn't have helped us score against the brick wall that was Chelsea and wouldn't have on his own prevented 3 goals against Everton. Maybe at best we'd be a point and a couple of goal difference better off.

Likewise we had a very poor start to the campaign for a number of reasons, which would not have been rectified by Carrick. His stats are hugely boosted by the fact that he happened to be injured at this point, whereas the likes of Blind look much worse because he featured in them, even though he was one of the best player's during this period.

Also, the fact that Carrick has been very good means we need to replace him? If his injuries become a problem I agree absolutely and we do need someone when he retires, but the likes of Pirlo are over 2 years older than Carrick and are still key to their teams. I'm sure Carrick feels he can go on for at least another season if not a couple, by which time the composition of our squad may be different. Blind may have improved massively and be ready to step in; we may have changed our system and not need a like of like replacement or Van Gaal may see a youth product as having potential.

I saw one poster on here say we need 8 signings after the loss to Everton... Eight. Utterly ridiculous.

Good grief. Now that is knee-jerk.

 

[Adzzz]

Presuming we'll have more games next season, with Carrick a year older, I'd probably be tempted to sign three midfielders. Strootman and Gundogan would be very nice but a massive risk, knowing our luck with injuries. I do believe Gundogan is fine now however, he's played a lot for BVB this season.

 

[golden_blunder]

Good grief. Now that is knee-jerk.

its not that much of a stretch though

definately need a RB, CB, CM (perhaps even 2)
would also like a wide player & a forward
chuck in that it looks likely that we will need a new GK

we are looking at 6-7 players

 

[Walrus]

its not that much of a stretch though

definately need a RB, CB, CM (perhaps even 2)
would also like a wide player & a forward
chuck in that it looks likely that we will need a new GK

we are looking at 6-7 players

I dont think a CB or CM is that critical - the top priorities for me are a RB and a winger/wide forward.

Other positions would of course be nice to strengthen, but depending on who stays and who goes, are not vital.

 

[Ekeke]

I think the big difference is in how much Blind is willing to commit himself going forward. He will often look to get into the box, whereas Carrick is more likely to remian further back, allowing himself to stay more composed. He reads the game so well because he is usually always facing it and playing with his back to our goal. Blind was often having to chase back to defend.

One reason why he's come up with late goals to save points for us. Also its not just going forward to get in the box, when he passes the ball watch him make a run forward dragging a defender with him and opening up twice as much space for the player on the ball to find a pass. Its clever movement and will only be undone by poor play from a teammate who should have no excuse for misplacing a pass in those circumstances.

 

[Player Red]

One reason why he's come up with late goals to save points for us. Also its not just going forward to get in the box, when he passes the ball watch him make a run forward dragging a defender with him and opening up twice as much space for the player on the ball to find a pass. Its clever movement and will only be undone by poor play from a teammate who should have no excuse for misplacing a pass in those circumstances.

That is the difference you get with those two in the same role. It just comes down to what you want out of the player in the deep lying midfield role.

I would like to see Herrera pushed up to the Fellaini position, Blind into the 8 and Carrick as our 6. Herrera with the ball higher up the pitch would be more likely to pick a pass. Obviously we lose the Fellaini outlet but it would be interesting to see how it works. Even Blind and Herrera could be swapped, we know Blind can be effective in that area of the pitch, as the got there often when playing LB.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I dont think a CB or CM is that critical - the top priorities for me are a RB and a winger/wide forward.

Other positions would of course be nice to strengthen, but depending on who stays and who goes, are not vital.

not sure how you can say a CB isn't critical when we've constantly had to use Evans and a teenager there, really.

 

[Walrus]

not sure how you can say a CB isn't critical when we've constantly had to use Evans and a teenager there, really.

Smalling has progressed well this season and has become something of a leader for us. Jones and Rojo are both capable of partnering him and have plenty of room for development themselves. McNair has shown himself to be a good prospect and worthy of some gametime next season.

That is four CBs, which is what you will find at most clubs (this is assuming that Evans leaves).

If you think that the problem is that they cant stay fit or they arent good enough, then that falls into my "it depends on who stays and who goes" statement - if LVG has confidence in the four I have listed, then I dont see any need to go out buying another CB. If however he chooses to ditch Jones (who could be the most likely candidate after Evans I think) then sure, we could do with a replacement. However the most likely scenario at the moment appears to be "just" Evans going.

 

[Ekeke]

That is the difference you get with those two in the same role. It just comes down to what you want out of the player in the deep lying midfield role.

I would like to see Herrera pushed up to the Fellaini position, Blind into the 8 and Carrick as our 6. Herrera with the ball higher up the pitch would be more likely to pick a pass. Obviously we lose the Fellaini outlet but it would be interesting to see how it works. Even Blind and Herrera could be swapped, we know Blind can be effective in that area of the pitch, as the got there often when playing LB.

I can see a use for both in midfield, but I don't think its needed. Just because we've had Carrick in the team so long doesnt mean thats the only way to use your deepest CM. There are certain things that Blind does that Carrick does not and vice versa, Carrick is 33 and will never do the things Blind does but Blind is 25 and can certainly learn the things that Carrick does.

For example Carrick doesn't win the ball this season, Blind wins the ball a decent amount. And if Carrick's our most important player and what you must have from your deep CM, why is Coquelin tackling Arsenal into a higher league position? We've also changed our lineup, tactics, formations, style and everything else under the sun. And just because Carrick was a good foil for Scholes, or influencial last season, doesn't mean his style suits the current way we play.

What if going forward we are going to use someone who participates in our attacks instead of being behind the play all the time? Making Fellaini and Ander harder to mark out of the game. Considering our CBs are encouraged to come out with the ball, why wouldnt our CM be? As long as its not at the same time ofc

 

[Massive Spanner]

Smalling has progressed well this season and has become something of a leader for us. Jones and Rojo are both capable of partnering him and have plenty of room for development themselves. McNair has shown himself to be a good prospect and worthy of some gametime next season.

That is four CBs, which is what you will find at most clubs (this is assuming that Evans leaves).

If you think that the problem is that they cant stay fit or they arent good enough, then that falls into my "it depends on who stays and who goes" statement - if LVG has confidence in the four I have listed, then I dont see any need to go out buying another CB. If however he chooses to ditch Jones (who could be the most likely candidate after Evans I think) then sure, we could do with a replacement. However the most likely scenario at the moment appears to be "just" Evans going.

Right, you're basing it on numbers, that's far too simple for me. Clearly we can't use the fact that we technically do have enough CBs as a basis because for the last few years we've constantly struggled there, and you could argue that out of the four, only Smalling has remotely shown himself as good enough so far.

We blatantly need a top class CB this summer.

 

[Carl]

This is really really easy.

Morgan Schneiderlin.

 

[Walrus]

Right, you're basing it on numbers, that's far too simple for me. Clearly we can't use the fact that we technically do have enough CBs as a basis because for the last few years we've constantly struggled there, and you could argue that out of the four, only Smalling has remotely shown himself as good enough so far.

We blatantly need a top class CB this summer.

I am basing it on numbers, you are basing it on pure opinion - I prefer my method, to be honest.

If we do sign a CB then it needs to be at the expense of one of the current ones (in addition to Evans, who I am already assuming will be leaving). Rojo only joined last summer, so it is doubtful that we would ditch him. Smalling has improved such that he deserves his spot in the team, and McNair looks a good prospect who we would be foolish to discard (perhaps a loan would be viable, but I think he would gain more by staying at the club and getting gametime in the cups etc - we will have more games next season so he would be afforded more opportunities I expect).
Therefore Jones is the odd one out. I dont mind Jones, I wont shed any tears if he goes but would prefer him to stay. However I dont think it is practical to be entering a new season with four established CBs (Smalling, Jones, Rojo, NewCB) plus McNair. Its simply excessive. There is also a case of the grass not always being greener - just because a player looks good for another team, doesnt instantly mean that will be an instant success for us. Jones may not be perfect by a long way, but he is a proven PL defender with plenty of room for improvement, we could do a lot worse. There is no guarantee that a foreign signing will actually end up as a big step up over Jones. We have seen highly rated prospects like Rojo, Sakho and Mangala all fail to live up to expectation when coming to the PL, and thats just the tip of the iceberg.


Edit: Just realised we are still in the Carrick thread. If you want to continue this debate then kindly reply in another, more appropriate thread.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I am basing it on numbers, you are basing it on pure opinion - I prefer my method, to be honest.

No I'm not. I'm basing it on previous injuries, who we've had to use, the performances they've given us, etc. That's not opinion.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

LVG for the most part has remained pretty calm about all the injuries and slowly easing players back. It is quite telling that the one player he has thrown in as soon as he's been fit and the one player he seemed genuinely gutted about when he was injured early in the season was Carrick.

We simply don't have anyone else to do what he does. It isn't just his defensive contribution, his passing both short and long is second to none. When Herrera and Blind have dropped in there we have had no one who can switch play quickly with a long diagonal pass which has meant that our attack has been slow and predictable. While Herrera and Blind are good short passers they simply don't have the range that Carrick has.

We desperately need someone like him in the summer.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

If the Gundogan interest is genuine, you would assume he is the solution.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

This is really really easy.

Morgan Schneiderlin.

Agreed.

 

[Gannicus]

This is really really easy.

Morgan Schneiderlin.

This.

We can be confident that Carrick has one more season in him and that he'll probably miss no more than half the season due to injuries. We have Blind, who will learn from his few mistakes and improve. Schneiderlin ticks the right boxes to round out the defensive side of midfield.

We could think about Pogba, Strootman and Vidal, but I just don't see any of them happening, for different reasons.

This is the "Carrick replacement" thread so I won't go into all the positions that need to be looked at this summer. The point here, though, is that the midfield situation is more complex than replacing Carrick. The better way to think about it is who can complement and provide cover for him next season. A prem proven mid like Morgan fits the bill perfectly.

 

[Carl]

This.

We can be confident that Carrick has one more season in him and that he'll probably miss no more than half the season due to injuries. We have Blind, who will learn from his few mistakes and improve. Schneiderlin ticks the right boxes to round out the defensive side of midfield.

We could think about Pogba, Strootman and Vidal, but I just don't see any of them happening, for different reasons.

This is the "Carrick replacement" thread so I won't go into all the positions that need to be looked at this summer. The point here, though, is that the midfield situation is more complex than replacing Carrick. The better way to think about it is who can complement and provide cover for him next season. A prem proven mid like Morgan fits the bill perfectly.

I don't even see Schneiderlin as an option that we'd be settling for or anything like that. I genuinely think he's excellent and alongside Gundogan, Herrera or even both we'd be looking at a real top drawer midfield. He's the best DM in the league for me.

 

[RedorDead21]

I am basing it on numbers, you are basing it on pure opinion - I prefer my method, to be honest.

If we do sign a CB then it needs to be at the expense of one of the current ones (in addition to Evans, who I am already assuming will be leaving). Rojo only joined last summer, so it is doubtful that we would ditch him. Smalling has improved such that he deserves his spot in the team, and McNair looks a good prospect who we would be foolish to discard (perhaps a loan would be viable, but I think he would gain more by staying at the club and getting gametime in the cups etc - we will have more games next season so he would be afforded more opportunities I expect).
Therefore Jones is the odd one out. I dont mind Jones, I wont shed any tears if he goes but would prefer him to stay. However I dont think it is practical to be entering a new season with four established CBs (Smalling, Jones, Rojo, NewCB) plus McNair. Its simply excessive. There is also a case of the grass not always being greener - just because a player looks good for another team, doesnt instantly mean that will be an instant success for us. Jones may not be perfect by a long way, but he is a proven PL defender with plenty of room for improvement, we could do a lot worse. There is no guarantee that a foreign signing will actually end up as a big step up over Jones. We have seen highly rated prospects like Rojo, Sakho and Mangala all fail to live up to expectation when coming to the PL, and thats just the tip of the iceberg.


Edit: Just realised we are still in the Carrick thread. If you want to continue this debate then kindly reply in another, more appropriate thread.

We really shouldnt be losing anyone IMO perhaps except Blankett out on loan. I can 100% guarantee if we swap Evans for Hummels for instance as soon as Hummels joins the usual Jones and Smalling out injured and we need to play Carrick at CB who is also out injured meaning Blind has to play there, with rooney coming into midfield again........I wont bother going on. Basically for all we'd get for Evans I'd rather have deep deep back up for the one game a season he might be needed.

 

[Walrus]

We really shouldnt be losing anyone IMO perhaps except Blankett out on loan. I can 100% guarantee if we swap Evans for Hummels for instance as soon as Hummels joins the usual Jones and Smalling out injured and we need to play Carrick at CB who is also out injured meaning Blind has to play there, with rooney coming into midfield again........I wont bother going on. Basically for all we'd get for Evans I'd rather have deep deep back up for the one game a season he might be needed.

I dont think it would be fair on Evans to relegate him to a "one game per season" role, to be honest (same goes for the other players). Maybe I am being to naive and compassionate, but I dont think LVG would be prepared to keep a player around under such circumstances either - and the player certainly wouldnt be happy with it.

 

[Ekeke]

If the Gundogan interest is genuine, you would assume he is the solution.

Then expect the same as Blind. Someone who plays differently to Carrick with some things better and some things worse

Also, if Blind isn't considered solid enough defensively we're going to have a new world of problems if Gundogan is the solution

 

[Devil may care]

If the Gundogan interest is genuine, you would assume he is the solution.

I don't see what is so unobtainable about this.

Gundogan----Herrera
------Schneiderlin

 

[finneh]

its not that much of a stretch though

definately need a RB, CB, CM (perhaps even 2)
would also like a wide player & a forward
chuck in that it looks likely that we will need a new GK

we are looking at 6-7 players

I think absolute maximum we need a CB, CM, RB and winger. That's if Nani isn't given a chance when he returns and Van Gaal wants to start to phase out Carrick due to his age. This constant turnover of 6-8 player's every season will leave us in perpetual transition.

 

[bosnian_red]

Then expect the same as Blind. Someone who plays differently to Carrick with some things better and some things worse

He'll provide the passing range and creativity that Carrick has, along with being better under pressure and on the ball generally. He just won't have Carrick's defensive shielding and organization, that's why if we play him deep then we'll need a defensive player in front next to Herrera. Or if we put him next to Herrera, then we need a proper defensive mid in behind like Matic. Anyway, there's no 1 player to replace all the qualities Carrick brings, we need a couple to replace him and Fellaini from the starting 11.

 

[Ekeke]

He'll provide the passing range and creativity that Carrick has, along with being better under pressure and on the ball generally. He just won't have Carrick's defensive shielding and organization, that's why if we play him deep then we'll need a defensive player in front next to Herrera. Or if we put him next to Herrera, then we need a proper defensive mid in behind like Matic. Anyway, there's no 1 player to replace all the qualities Carrick brings, we need a couple to replace him and Fellaini from the starting 11.

I mostly agree. Alternatively Gundogan could be developed as a deep lying playmaker, with Ander and Fellaini pressuring high up the pitch to allow this similar to how Carrick is used but of course he'd have to show vast improvement in several areas. It seems very risky, but sometimes players improve or managers do things we aren't used to and they work like how Barcelona developed their midfield with just technical passers and players pressing higher up the pitch so they didn't need Yaya Toure's physical presence. So I personally wouldn't count that situation out, it just seems like a risky plan given Gundogan isn't as good a defender as Blind so will leave us more exposed unless he dramatically improves on current form. But he did used to win the ball a lot more often than he does at the moment...

 

[Fully Fledged]

No player can "replace" him but we need a no.2 guy who has grown playing only at that position..

How about Sven Bender? he could easily do the defensive side of the Carrick role leaving other players to create the chances for us. He has also stated that he would welcome a move to the EPL.

 

[bosnian_red]

I mostly agree. Alternatively Gundogan could be developed as a deep lying playmaker, with Ander and Fellaini pressuring high up the pitch to allow this similar to how Carrick is used but of course he'd have to show vast improvement in several areas. It seems very risky, but sometimes players improve or managers do things we aren't used to and they work like how Barcelona developed their midfield with just technical passers and players pressing higher up the pitch so they didn't need Yaya Toure's physical presence. So I personally wouldn't count that situation out, it just seems like a risky plan given Gundogan isn't as good a defender as Blind so will leave us more exposed unless he dramatically improves on current form. But he did used to win the ball a lot more often than he does at the moment...

Yeah, its not necessarily just winning the ball back, but more in terms or positioning and not moving around all the time.. Gundogan, at least pre injury, was always moving around and would drive forward with the ball. He starts in the deeper position but he doesn't act like a proper holding midfielder, you need like a more controlled and disciplined player next to him to get the most out of him. If we did develop him to be that disciplined positionally and defensively then I think it would take a lot out of his overall game, or potential overall game.

 

[NoPace]

Right, you're basing it on numbers, that's far too simple for me. Clearly we can't use the fact that we technically do have enough CBs as a basis because for the last few years we've constantly struggled there, and you could argue that out of the four, only Smalling has remotely shown himself as good enough so far.

We blatantly need a top class CB this summer.

If we're serious about winning the title and being more than just a limp Rof16 or QF loser in the CL, we probably need a partner for Smalling with Rojo and Jones as excellent backups for a long season at a position in which we always have depth issues.

Same thing for Carrick's long-term replacement. If Blind is the backup at LB and DM then that means we have very good solutions at both.

 

[DocRockter]

How about Sven Bender? he could easily do the defensive side of the Carrick role leaving other players to create the chances for us. He has also stated that he would welcome a move to the EPL.

Absolutely would prefer players from Germany over Italy(excluding Pogba but feck him).. Haven't seen much of Bender to be honest, also Dortmund might not want to fire-sell their entire core to us in a reasonable price.

 

[Fully Fledged]

Absolutely would prefer players from Germany over Italy(excluding Pogba but feck him).. Haven't seen much of Bender to be honest, also Dortmund might not want to fire-sell their entire core to us in a reasonable price.

I'm thinking of Klopp gone they might be open to change. He is reported as being interested in a move the the EPL. Granted that report was about a possible move to Arsenal but are they really going to sign a DCM?

 

[glazed]

Pity it has taken until nearing the end of his career for him to appreciated. He is a bloody good player and has been criminally underrated.

This. The stats don't lie. Carrick starts: we play well and win. And yet he seems to just stand there having a fag.