Religion, what's the point?

Werewolf said:
What interpretations ? All I mentioned was pure scientific facts. The title says : "Clay's matchmaking could have sparked life" by the way. And do you generally stop at reading titles ?

Your Lord said to the angels, "I am going to create a human being out of clay. When I have formed him and breathed My Spirit into him, fall down in prostration to him!" (Qur'an, 38:71-72)

Isn't this explicit enough ? What do you need more ?
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Isn't it pointless to have this discussion considering science still doesn't know what's the origin of life on Earth (although it does look more and more likely to be the matter Earth is made of itself, unless we're aliens..).

And about the verse you mentioned, "out" is actually more in the sense of "from".. If you know the arabic language you'll know I'm not even interpreting here. The literal word is "from" here.. "From" doesn't need to be direct. We can make many chemical compounds from other totally different chemical compounds.. That's how we deal with the word from in our daily lives. I don't know why things change when it comes to the Quran.

Besides, when you say "from" you don't necessarily mean that it's wholly made of/from it (even though it doesn't exclude that possibility) but it could also refer only to the most important part of it.. Just like how we say computers are made of silicon. Even though silicon only constitutes a small portion of computers, but, it's the crucial part in it..
 
jakec said:
Sorry then, but the rest is all true?
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Nope, as I said yesterday many of those verses are subject to interpretation (I gave the black hole example yesterday). Some of them are pretty much bullshit, I really haven't ever read that Werewolfes exist (like you mentioned yesterday that it is written in Quran), some are subject of interpretation (like Earth is flat) and some are pretty much mistakes (like bones are created before the muscles).
 
Saliph said:
Wow. Religion really rots the brain.
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I have seen a Islamic propaganda book that claims many 'scientific proofs' that can be found in the Koran. The author applies the most tenuous single line verses to scientific discoveries that have been made since the Koran was written. One, for example, claimed that Mohamed knew about the process of child birth way ahead of his time because a line in the Koran describes an early development stage human fetus as looking like 'chewing gum', yes that is the type of higher science that God, the creator of the universe in all it complexity and glory, imparted to Mohamed all those years ago.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
I have seen a Islamic propaganda book that claims many 'scientific proofs' that can be found in the Koran. The author applies the most tenuous single line verses to scientific discoveries that have been made since the Koran was written. One, for example, claimed that Mohamed knew about the process of child birth way ahead of his time because a line in the Koran describes an early development stage human fetus as looking like 'chewing gum', yes that is the type of higher science that God, the creator of the universe in all it complexity and glory, imparted to Mohamed all those years ago.
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Yeah, it's fascinating to see the mental gymnastics that Danny and MadMoney are engaged in here. Amazing how the mind can be partitioned.
 
Revan said:
Nope, as I said yesterday many of those verses are subject to interpretation (I gave the black hole example yesterday). Some of them are pretty much bullshit, I really haven't ever read that Werewolfes exist (like you mentioned yesterday that it is written in Quran), some are subject of interpretation (like Earth is flat) and some are pretty much mistakes (like bones are created before the muscles).
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But the Quran is the word of God, how can he be wrong?
 
Saliph said:
Yeah, it's fascinating to see the mental gymnastics that Danny and MadMoney are engaged in here. Amazing how the mind can be partitioned.
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Assuming that something is wrong with somebody's mind just because you disagree with him (and accuse him of being "gymnastic" just because you failed to prove your points) shows a lot of arrogance (right moses?) and ignorance.
 
Re-posted:

We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape; (15:26) Man created from clay?

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." (18:86) Sun in water?

It is God who made for you the earth a fixed place and heaven for an edifice; And He shaped you, and shaped you well, and provided you with the good things. That then is God, your Lord, so blessed be God, the Lord of all Being. (40:64) Earth is not a fixed place.

Hast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because Allah had granted him power? Abraham said: "My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death." He said: "I give life and death". Said Abraham: "But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east: Do thou then cause him to rise from the West." Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth Allah Give guidance to a people unjust. (2:258) Sun doesn't rise on the east. The effect is because of the Earth's revolution

And when the stars fall (81:2) Stars doesn't fall

The stars which rise and set (81:16) Neither rise or set

And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with stars/lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame. (67:5) Starts who could be million of times bigger than Earth are missile for devils. Also, how stars are missils?

See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,
'And made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp (71:15-16) Moon in the middle?

Reclining in the (Garden) on raised thrones, they will see there neither the sun's (excessive heat) nor (the moon's) excessive cold. (76:13) Moon's excessive cold?

The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain. (54:1) Moon divided in two

We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us (50:38) Universe created in six days

And that He it is Who is the Lord of Sirius (53:49) Sirius is a double star, while here the verse implicates that he is a single star, using singular form

Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He Who sends down rain, and He Who knows what is in the wombs. Nor does any one know what it is that he will earn on the morrow: Nor does any one know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things). (31:34) Only him?

Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones then (not and) clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create! (23-14) Contrary to the verse, the first muscles are created before the bones

Behold! they fold up their hearts, that they may lie hid from Him! Ah even when they cover themselves with their garments, He knoweth what they conceal, and what they reveal: for He knoweth well the (inmost secrets) of the hearts. (51:49) People don't think with their hearts

Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress (55:20) About the different seas

And at the Earth, how it is spread out? (88:20) Earth is flat?

He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. (20:53) According to Quran, yes it is.

And He it is Who sends the winds as good news before His mercy; and We send down pure water from the cloud, (25:48) The average of PH in rain is 5.6. Also, rain can be acidic

And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in (men's) habitations;Then to eat of all the fruits (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colors, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought. (16:68-69) Bees don't eat fruit

And (He has created) horses, mules, and donkeys, for you to ride and use for show; and He has created (other) things of which ye have no knowledge. (16:8) Horses have been created for us?

At length, behold! there came Our command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female, and your family - except those against whom the word has already gone forth,- and the Believers." but only a few believed with him. (11:40) How big that boat was?

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (9:30) Historically there isn't evidence that Jews called Uzair (Ezra) son of God.

We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin. (29:14) Noah lived for 950 years?

There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. (6:38) Leopard lives single

And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." (2:65) Humans transformed into apes

And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from Allah.)And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts― of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. (27:16-17) Army of birds?

Danny and others, look at those verses I mentioned before. Some of them are subject to interpretation (like the Earth is flat), some are historical (like Ezra being called as son of God) and some of them could be interpreted as miracles from God (the moon divided in two places, the army of birds, Noah living 950 years etc). Anyway, can you explain the verses that are in bold, how they are not in contradiction with the science. Those I am mentioning again are:

- Man created from clay
- Earth being a fixed place
- Stars fall
- Stars being missiles for devils
- Moon being in the middle of stars
- Universe created in 6 days
- Bones created before the muscles
- About the seas that have a barrier between them
- Bees eating fruits
- Noah taking in his boat a male and a female of every species.

Thank you.
 
Danny1982 said:
Assuming that something is wrong with somebody's mind just because you disagree with him (and accuse him of being "gymnastic" just because you failed to prove your points) shows a lot of arrogance (right moses?) and ignorance.
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I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your mind, I'm saying you fail at critical thinking with regards to your own religion.

It's not about disagreement, it's about people making outrageous claims without being able to back them up. If you say that the Qur'an is the perfect word of the creator of the universe, you're not merely expressing an opinion, you're making a claim. Pastafarians might accuse me of ignorance and arrogance if I say that I think their religion is nonsense, but I don't really care.
 
Saliph said:
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your mind, I'm saying you fail at critical thinking with regards to your own religion.

It's not about disagreement, it's about people making outrageous claims without being able to back them up. If you say that the Qur'an is the perfect word of the creator of the universe, you're not merely expressing an opinion, you're making a claim. Pastafarians might accuse me of ignorance and arrogance if I say that I think their religion is nonsense, but I don't really care.
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How dare you?
 
Revan, I really don't have to have time to answer all those.. Pick two that you think are the most damning and I'll reply to you.
 
Danny1982 said:
Revan, I really don't have to have time to answer all those.. Pick two that you think are the most damning and I'll reply to you.
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Stars fall/stars being missiles for devils
Earth being a fixed place
Bees eating fruits
Noah and his giant ship
 
Saliph said:
Yeah, it's fascinating to see the mental gymnastics that Danny and MadMoney are engaged in here. Amazing how the mind can be partitioned.
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What a laughable post. This coming from the guy who as previously mentioned has failed to prove his points.
 
Revan said:
Stars fall/stars being missiles for devils
Earth being a fixed place
Bees eating fruits
Noah and his giant ship
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Can you quote the exact verses you're talking about, because some of those points are mentioned in more than one verse.
 
Danny1982 said:
Can you quote the exact verses you're talking about, because some of those points are mentioned in more than one verse.
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Stars falling (81:2)/being missiles for devils(67:5)
Earth being a fixed place (40:64)
Bees eating fruits (16:68-69)
Bones created before the muscles (23:14)
Noah and his giant ship (11:40)
 
Revan said:
Stars falling (81:2)/being missiles for devils(67:5)
Earth being a fixed place (40:64)
Bees eating fruits (16:68-69)
Bones created before the muscles (23:14)
Noah and his giant ship (11:40)
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Sorry, can you please state with clarity what your interpretation for the verse is, and what the actual scientific fact that contradicts that interpretation is, so I know what I'm replying to..

Put it this way:

Verse 1: ...
My interpretation is: ...
The scientific fact it contradicts is: ...


EDIT: And can you please pick only two (because I don't want to pick myself), as I don't have much time to spend in this, and I think two examples are enough to prove a point (especially when you pick them yourself)..
 
Danny1982 said:
Isn't it pointless to have this discussion considering science still doesn't know what's the origin of life on Earth (although it does look more and more likely to be the matter Earth is made of itself, unless we're aliens..).
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No it is not pointless to have this discussion because, unlike religion, when science does not know something it does not make any claim. "We don't know" is still a valid answer. On the other hand, religions do not hesitate to make definitive claims about things and they often get it wrong.

And about the verse you mentioned, "out" is actually more in the sense of "from".. If you know the arabic language you'll know I'm not even interpreting here. The literal word is "from" here.. "From" doesn't need to be direct. We can make many chemical compounds from other totally different chemical compounds.. That's how we deal with the word from in our daily lives. I don't know why things change when it comes to the Quran.
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You are right, the literal word is "from". But I don't see what it changes with regards to the meaning. The idea here is that clay is used as the starting point, that it is what constitutes the material on which God relied to create humans which absolutely contradicts reality. Your following sentence shows that you are in fact agreeing with this.

Besides, when you say "from" you don't necessarily mean that it's wholly made of/from it (even though it doesn't exclude that possibility) but it could also refer only to the most important part of it.. Just like how we say computers are made of silicon. Even though silicon only constitutes a small portion of computers, but, it's the crucial part in it..
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The relationship between clay and the apparition of life is far far from the one between silicon and computers. The scientific article says that clay could have been a factor in speeding up the process of forming vesicles and carrying RNA inside them. In your final product, you do not have any clay because its only role is to help forming the "primitive cell" which are in fact made of amino-acids. Your computer however contains sillicon in its final form. Your analogy in fact proves the opposite of what you are defending.
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Let me contrast the verse with what the ancient Greeks believed for instance (again, I will let you draw your own conclusions) :

"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay.So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration." (38:71, 38:72).

"Prometheus and Epimetheus were spared imprisonment in Tatarus because they had not fought with their fellow Titans during the war with the Olympians. They were given the task of creating man. Prometheus shaped man out of mud, and Athena breathed life into his clay figure. "

http://www.webcitation.org/query?ur.../scaffold/GG/creationMan.html&date=2012-12-13
 
Danny1982 said:
No, Islam didn't use force in order to convert tribes in the peninsula. I don't think Mohammad was strong enough to force everybody in the Arabian peninsula to be a Muslim.
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Come on ! It's not like I did not already mention some of the attacks he initiated (lead by Khalid Ibn AlWalid) on some tribes in the peninsula ! He was indeed in his last two years but he ordered those fights.
 
Danny1982 said:
Sorry, can you please state with clarity what your interpretation for the verse is, and what the actual scientific fact that contradicts that interpretation is, so I know what I'm replying to..

Put it this way:

Verse 1: ...
My interpretation is: ...
The scientific fact it contradicts is: ...
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Verse 81:2 And when the stars fall, dispersing,
My interpretation is: Likely the Quran writers thought that meteoroids are stars
The scientific fact it contradicts is: Stars doesn't ever fall, they can go supernova and then became black holes, or they can become white dwarfs. but they can't fall

Verse 67:5 And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze.
My interpretation is: One of the functions of the stars (other than guiding voyagers and making the sky more beautiful, according to a hadith) is to thrown them at devils.
The scientific fact it contradicts is: Star doesn't fall. Also, they are very big, could be million of times bigger than Earth. How they are used to thrown at devils?

Verse 16:68-69 - And your Lord inspired to the bee, "Take for yourself among the mountains, houses, and among the trees and [in] that which they construct.Then eat from all the fruits and follow the ways of your Lord laid down [for you]." There emerges from their bellies a drink, varying in colors, in which there is healing for people. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who give thought.
My interpretation is: Bees eat fruits
The scientific fact it contradicts is: Bees doesn't feed on fruits. They feed on pollen and nectar from flowers.

Verse 23:14 - Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump [of flesh], and We made [from] the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation. So blessed is Allah , the best of creators.
My interpretation is: 'We made the lump, bones and we covered the bones with flesh' means that the bones are created before the muscles (flesh)
The scientific fact it contradicts is: Some muscles are created before the bones

Verse 11:40 - [So it was], until when Our command came and the oven overflowed, We said, "Load upon the ship of each [creature] two mates and your family, except those about whom the word has preceded, and [include] whoever has believed." But none had believed with him, except a few.
My interpretation is: Lord commanded Noah to load upon his ship two mates of each creature (or at-least of every land creature)
The scientific fact it contradicts is: How big that ship was, ship that was capable of keeping two mates of hundreds of thousands of creatures

Verse 71:15-16 - "See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another, and made the moon a light in their midst, and made the sun as a (Glorious) Lamp?."
My interpretation is: From the 'made the moon a light in their midst' means that the moon is in the middle
The scientific fact it contradicts is: The moon is not in the middle of stars, not in the middle of universe.
 
I'm sorry, but really Danny? You're going to try and twist the fact that God, in his everlasting knowledge, thought that we spunked from our ribs?
 
@Revan

Did you know that scientific facts can later be disproven if future once new knowledge comes to light? It has happened before and will happen again. A google search on scientific facts disproved can give you examples.

Though not confirmed yet, there are studies that may even disprove the theory of relativity! In one of my posts above I mention that Stephen Hawking in his lecture states that before Big Bang only singularity exists where all laws of physics break down. No scientist can explain it further.

Arguing scientific fact is absolute is equally bad and short sighted as arguing a hundred year old religious book is absolute.
 
Fruity Cake said:
@Revan

Did you know that scientific facts can later be disproven if future once new knowledge comes to light? It has happened before and will happen again. A google search on scientific facts disproved can give you examples.

Though not confirmed yet, there are studies that may even disprove the theory of relativity! In one of my posts above I mention that Stephen Hawking in his lecture states that before Big Bang only singularity exists where all laws of physics break down. No scientist can explain it further.

Arguing scientific fact is absolute is equally bad and short sighted as arguing a hundred year old religious book is absolute.
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Whoa whoa whoa. Whoa. Which are these "scientific facts" that have been disproved?
 
Anyway. Islam instructs us not to ask questions.


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"O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:101-102).


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"The Holy Prophet himself forbade people to ask questions ...so do not try to probe into such things." (The Meaning of the Qur'an, Maududi, vol. III, pgs. 76-77)
 
Ubik said:
I'm asking you to provide me some that you see as strong cases, googling is unreliable in that regard.
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Lol, statement of the year.

If I do quote some stuff, how are you going to disprove them without googling? Maybe you are Hawking incognito?

No. I'm not going to quote as I am not debating scientific stuff. There exists enough resources in the net to convince yourself and I cannot add anything of value to the science there.

If you disagree, please state explicitly in your reply that scientific fact of today is holier than thou and can be taken as absolute with no chance of disproval in future.

Lets see how it goes then...
 
I asked you, because when I googled "science facts disproved", I got a load of scientific theories that had been disproved. It was short of facts, in short. I was hoping you'd have some on standby that were actually facts that got disproved.
 
Fruity Kate said:
@Revan

Did you know that scientific facts can later be disproven if future once new knowledge comes to light? It has happened before and will happen again. A google search on scientific facts disproved can give you examples.

Though not confirmed yet, there are studies that may even disprove the theory of relativity! In one of my posts above I mention that Stephen Hawking in his lecture states that before Big Bang only singularity exists where all laws of physics break down. No scientist can explain it further.

Arguing scientific fact is absolute is equally bad and short sighted as arguing a hundred year old religious book is absolute.
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:lol: How far up your own behind did you have to go to pull that out?
 
Fruity Kate said:
@Revan

Did you know that scientific facts can later be disproven if future once new knowledge comes to light? It has happened before and will happen again. A google search on scientific facts disproved can give you examples.
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That's the beauty of science. Science evolves and always try to improve itself. Unlike religion

Fruity Kate said:
Though not confirmed yet, there are studies that may even disprove the theory of relativity! In one of my posts above I mention that Stephen Hawking in his lecture states that before Big Bang only singularity exists where all laws of physics break down. No scientist can explain it further.
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What has theory of relativity to do with anything in this debate. Also, if I am not mistaken, both the general theory of relativity and special theory of relativity have not been disproved yet. Though for microcosmos, in place of special theory of relativity it is used quantum mechanics, and while scientist have been trying to unify them, they have always failed, likely because both of the theories are part of another theory (or better said another set of theories), String theory. What has to do this with the debate though

Fruity Kate said:
Arguing scientific fact is absolute is equally bad and short sighted as arguing a hundred year old religious book is absolute.
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No, it's not. Science doesn't say to us to believe things. If you want, you can study all those theories and get your own conclusions. If a theory of science is disproved, that's not bad, at the contrary it's good, cause then we'll find a theory that is better and has more truth on it. At the contrary, religion asks for us to believe blindly what is written, even if those things are clearly not correct. You can always come with the answer that maybe science is wrong and in the next 10, 100, 1000 or a million years it will find what is written there (example that bones are created before the muscles, or when stars became black holes they catch in theory gravity devils who were somehow magically flying there) but they are cheap answers to don't let the religion discredited in those cases. And finally, in Quran it says that is is the word of Gord and not a single letter of it can be discredited. Unlike Science, when if a theory is proven wrong, that doesn't mean that the Science is wrong, in Quran if a verse is wrong that means that the entire Quran and Islam is false.
 
Oh man, I didn't think your examples would be this bad.
 
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