Religion, what's the point?

[Relevated]

Guru Nanak said, "there is no muslim and there is no hindu" there are only people trying to be, learning to be. I grew up Sikh, Sikh means learner, nothing else. None of you are Muslim Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, you're just learning how to be.

Show me a perfect man.

This is a misunderstanding of the concept of another religion. To be a Muslim, there are conditions to be met, and then once you're within the scope of Islam you are trying to implement the religion as best you can by fighting your worldly desires of lust, futile desire, arrogance, sin etc etc.

The concept of Islam is to preach one God whilst you're learning the religion. By your definition, everyone of us is a Sikh as well as a Muslim... but that's not true is it? You know that's not true, because within Sikhism you're not allowed to eat Halal meat and adhere to the Jhatka method of animal slaughter.

There are a lot of fundamental difference.

 

[Relevated]

Trump is a con artist. Muhammad was a con artist.

Con artists do not believe the bullshit they are saying. They just want to gain followers because this gives them power. And power also gives them money, which is important for some, especially for Trump.

Muhammad, salallahu alayhi wasalam, did not live a life of riches even though he had the power to be. He did not crave power for 40 years of his life, but was an esteemed person amongst his society, so he had no reason and no evidence for it to be craved after.

'they don't believe what they're saying', is an ignorant statement from an individual who has not looked into the life of Muhammad, salallahu alayhi wasalam, verses of Quran, or hadith.

You prefer to follow your own desire and intellect rather than turning to a creator, and deep inside you know that's true.

 

[Moby]

Guru Nanak said, "there is no muslim and there is no hindu" there are only people trying to be, learning to be. I grew up Sikh, Sikh means learner, nothing else. None of you are Muslim Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, you're just learning how to be.

Show me a perfect man.

This is a misunderstanding of the concept of another religion. To be a Muslim, there are conditions to be met, and then once you're within the scope of Islam you are trying to implement the religion as best you can by fighting your worldly desires of lust, futile desire, arrogance, sin etc etc.

The concept of Islam is to preach one God whilst you're learning the religion. By your definition, everyone of us is a Sikh as well as a Muslim... but that's not true is it? You know that's not true, because within Sikhism you're not allowed to eat Halal meat and adhere to the Jhatka method of animal slaughter.

There are a lot of fundamental difference.

There you go @Peter van der Gea . The artificial division is ingrained to a level that it cannot be touched by any way of reasoning. Futile exercise.

 

[calodo2003]

Muhammad, salallahu alayhi wasalam, did not live a life of riches even though he had the power to be. He did not crave power for 40 years of his life, but was an esteemed person amongst his society, so he had no reason and no evidence for it to be craved after.

'they don't believe what they're saying', is an ignorant statement from an individual who has not looked into the life of Muhammad, salallahu alayhi wasalam, verses of Quran, or hadith.

You prefer to follow your own desire and intellect rather than turning to a creator, and deep inside you know that's true.

What‘s wrong with following one’s own intellect?

 

[Relevated]

There you go @Peter van der Gea . The artificial division is ingrained to a level that it cannot be touched by any way of reasoning. Futile exercise.

Sorry, but just because you feel like it, you cannot define something you aren't eligible to define. You cannot brand us into whatever you wish. Call it division or whatever you want, the clear difference between us is that we worship one God and you don't.

 

[Moby]

you cannot define something you aren't eligible to define.

You need to have a functioning set of senses to define what does and doesn't exist, what us as human beings are not eligible to define is anything that we have no evidence of existence, yet that is what some or rather most seem to be the most sure of and decide the put each and every part of that imagination into their actual lives. So, yeah, eligibility isn't something that's in my way in this scenario.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

This is a misunderstanding of the concept of another religion. To be a Muslim, there are conditions to be met, and then once you're within the scope of Islam you are trying to implement the religion as best you can by fighting your worldly desires of lust, futile desire, arrogance, sin etc etc.

The concept of Islam is to preach one God whilst you're learning the religion. By your definition, everyone of us is a Sikh as well as a Muslim... but that's not true is it? You know that's not true, because within Sikhism you're not allowed to eat Halal meat and adhere to the Jhatka method of animal slaughter.

There are a lot of fundamental difference.

Sorry, but just because you feel like it, you cannot define something you aren't eligible to define. You cannot brand us into whatever you wish. Call it division or whatever you want, the clear difference between us is that we worship one God and you don't.

If you're not a perfect *whatever the religion *, you're just learning, you're seeking (Sikhing). There is no perfect Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Agnostic, whatever.

Too many people call themselves a label, but most of them are just striving to match up to that level.

If ( and I'm not saying you do) believe Muhammad was the perfect person, if you aren't exactly like him, you're not a Muslim, you're just learning (from his words) to be a Muslim.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

This is a misunderstanding of the concept of another religion. To be a Muslim, there are conditions to be met, and then once you're within the scope of Islam you are trying to implement the religion as best you can by fighting your worldly desires of lust, futile desire, arrogance, sin etc etc.

The concept of Islam is to preach one God whilst you're learning the religion. By your definition, everyone of us is a Sikh as well as a Muslim... but that's not true is it? You know that's not true, because within Sikhism you're not allowed to eat Halal meat and adhere to the Jhatka method of animal slaughter.

There are a lot of fundamental difference.

The main point of the post is not the religion. The main point is that no human is perfect. Which perfectly makes sense for me, I’m a Muslim. We can’t preach on words.

 

[nimic]

If you're not a perfect *whatever the religion *, you're just learning, you're seeking (Sikhing). There is no perfect Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Agnostic, whatever.

Too many people call themselves a label, but most of them are just striving to match up to that level.

If ( and I'm not saying you do) believe Muhammad was the perfect person, if you aren't exactly like him, you're not a Muslim, you're just learning (from his words) to be a Muslim.

This is profound to you, and I completely respect that, but to most of us it's just semantics.

 

[RedTiger]

Trump is a con artist. Muhammad was a con artist.

Con artists do not believe the bullshit they are saying. They just want to gain followers because this gives them power. And power also gives them money, which is important for some, especially for Trump.

What was the con artist Muhammad's financial gain? How much generational wealth did he leave his offspring?

 

[Relevated]

The main point of the post is not the religion. The main point is that no human is perfect. Which perfectly makes sense for me, I’m a Muslim. We can’t preach on words.

But even I could tell you that in 3 words. Nobody is perfect. No need for stating the obvious.

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

But even I could tell you that in 3 words. Nobody is perfect. No need for stating the obvious.

I guess it was a remark related to the state of the thing in this thread.

Some people make statements which are bordering fascism. They heavily use generalization, dehumanize believers.

They even cite IQ tests as a subtle politically correctly phrased hint on retardness of the group the people based on their religion.

They are disturbed by some random believers around them in their lives and decided to unleash their vengeance upon fellow United supporters.Especially they are interested in Muslim posters today.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Bloody hell this is a bit of a toxic atheist cauldron isn't it. Wasn't quite expecting such a back lash but I'll reply when I get the time.

I think respect is very important though and having a balanced opinion on these sort of things. Alot of extreme views on here and not alot of rational balanced views looking at both sides.

 

[calodo2003]

Bloody hell this is a bit of a toxic atheist cauldron isn't it. Wasn't quite expecting such a back lash but I'll reply when I get the time.

I think respect is very important though and having a balanced opinion on these sort of things. Alot of extreme views on here and not alot of rational balanced views looking at both sides.

Well, it is the take the piss out of religion thread. There’s another religion thread where such views can be discussed.

 

[Raoul]

Bloody hell this is a bit of a toxic atheist cauldron isn't it. Wasn't quite expecting such a back lash but I'll reply when I get the time.

I think respect is very important though and having a balanced opinion on these sort of things. Alot of extreme views on here and not alot of rational balanced views looking at both sides.

What you consider a balanced view ? One that allows both sides to have equal legitimacy ?

 

[ThehatchetMan]

If you were to change the title to "football, what's the point". This thread is very much like die hard football fans arguing against a demographic with no interest in football or any sports.

And usually the answer to these sort of things is in the middle where you can recognise both the pros and cons. And above all else respect others.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Well, it is the take the piss out of religion thread. There’s another religion thread where such views can be discussed.

Oh shit I thought it was the serious one. This makes a bit more sense lol!

 

[VorZakone]

Bloody hell this is a bit of a toxic atheist cauldron isn't it. Wasn't quite expecting such a back lash but I'll reply when I get the time.

I think respect is very important though and having a balanced opinion on these sort of things. Alot of extreme views on here and not alot of rational balanced views looking at both sides.

What's toxic about it? Can you not handle getting challenged?

 

[calodo2003]

Oh shit I thought it was the serious one. This makes a bit more sense lol!

 

[ThehatchetMan]

What's toxic about it? Can you not handle getting challenged?

I thought this was a serious discussion as I came across a serious thread on here on religion. Maybe that was in current events. Which makes alot more sense

 

[Peter van der Gea]

The main point of the post is not the religion. The main point is that no human is perfect. Which perfectly makes sense for me, I’m a Muslim. We can’t preach on words.

No. My point is that no one is Muslim, you're just trying/learning to be a Muslim. No one is a Christian, they're just learning to be a Christian, they're just learning to be a Christian

 

[Carolina Red]

Bloody hell this is a bit of a toxic atheist cauldron isn't it.

The thread title is “religion, what’s the point?” I’m not sure why you’re surprised at getting pushback.

There is another thread for religious discussion here in the CE specifically for those who are religious in which you’re free to discuss your beliefs without any pushback.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-discussion-read-the-op-before-posting.424322/

 

[ThinkTank@Cafe]

No. My point is that no one is Muslim, you're just trying/learning to be a Muslim. No one is a Christian, they're just learning to be a Christian, they're just learning to be a Christian

What I meant in this context is “I belong to Islam”. In your words you’d accept “learning to be a Muslim”. It is also a good description of what how I feel.

Ok guys, Ill leave you guys alone in your conversation. Don’t want to fight.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Because religion has been used, in every age on record, as an excuse to persecute, discriminate and go to war against huge sways of society, like women, ethnic minorities, homosexuals and trans people.

This central hub does not have to be a religious building, which as I mentioned happen to be the most lavish place in the community, where men live. Early Christians banned outdoor religious gathering because they lost out financially. If you want to meet your community, do a favour for your neighbour, you don't have to go to some buildong and chant words together.

And as for an open door, sorry mate, I haven't seen a single religious organization with an open door policy. They might profess it, but they don't.

I don't agree completely with your first point. I agree in the sense that historically it has certainly been used as a tool to influence things, but not so much in recent history in my opinion. The most racist, misogynist, homophobic people I know tend to be far right atheists such as Andrew Tate or Tommy Robinson for recent examples.

Similarly those who use religion as a tool to try and cause conflict tend to be more narcissistic in nature and not truly religious. Donald Trump being a fine example.

In my community the churches certainly aren't lavish at all and with the exception of services on a Sunday; alot of the stuff they offer the community has little focus on religion. The youth clubs, sports clubs, midday meals for pensioners, gas/electric/food vouchers, charity shop, food bank, visiting the lonely/poorly etc.. etc.. tend to have little to no religious references. Now maybe other religions are a bit more forceful with it but in the methodist church it isn't.

I agree that a central hub doesn't need to be a community building. But all the above I mentioned is funded through donations from the congregation and run by volunteers doing it in their free time to give something back the the community. The reason it's not offered I'm abundance in other hubs is because the average person doesn't really have an interest in volunteering their time and money to give back to their communities. And the hubs which do offer it are usually not run by volunteers but instead salaried staff.

I'm not particularly educated on other religions so I can't comment on all. I've always found Sikhs, Buddhists and Hindus to be particularly welcomening. Islam I find to be a bit more closed off but I don't think the media propoganda helps them. I know they do make an effort to try and open up to others during rammadan and eid though. And all the above plus other religions were very actively involved in doing food parcels etc. During the pandemic.

Of course I do understand alot of your points and maybe I'm not looking at it from as high a level as you are. I agree it can be used as a tool and to cause division.

But I really don't think the average person who follows a religion actually holds alot of hate, if anything I think they're usually alot more caring and generous than the average non religious person. It's the extremists and the media which use it as a tool. Not your average church congregation.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Yeah just like the completely sane peaceful and harmless guy a couple of pages back who was casually beating his wife for cutting their daughters hair and making her look "more like a lesbian" which goes against his religious beliefs? If you haven't a clue the amount of atrocities that are born from these texts and go on both inside and outside people's homes just do some research.

Anyone who has the audacity to still come up with bollocks like religion is peaceful or harmless needs to be shot into the sun.

Your last paragraph doesn't sound peaceful or harmless. I don't believe it's the root cause of all evil, there are many evil people who follow no religion at all.

The guy a few pages back, I've not seen his posts. But if someone thinks they can beat their wife and that it's acceptable then that's completely wrong. But do you truly believe that it's the religion that's making him do it. Do you think if he was athiest he wouldn't take the same actions if something happened which crossed his morale compass? Josef Fritzl wasn't religious but if he was I think he'd behave the same way. This poster you talk about I think would probably behave the same way whether he was religious or not. The religion is just used as a tool to excuse his behaviour.

I don't know enough about all these different religions either. I only really know methodist church from being a child. So apologies for my ignorance.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

Kinda answered your own question there…

I don't think there's necessarily always as strong as coorelation as you think though.

The more I type though the more I think that the religion I know best (Christianity) and the form (methodist) of it I would have been involved in as a child is much tamer and not as strict or cult like as some other relegions. So maybe I'm seeing things through slightly Rose tinted glasses.

I still don't agree though with this blanket statements on certain groups or stereotyping a relegion on the actions of a minority.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

What you consider a balanced view ? One that allows both sides to have equal legitimacy ?

That's difficult to answer and my opinion on calling it toxic was based on a very small sample of posts so I did say it out of haste.

I guess to be balanced you have to try and recognise both the pros and cons of religion. And while religion is certainly responsible for alot of bad things, you also have to recognise some of the good and charity work delivered from them too.

I think as well its difficult to understand "faith" if you've never experienced it or had others close to you who have experienced it. In the same manner that I don't think a good dooer is qualified to talk about drug addiction because again you can't really understand it unless you've experienced it.

In a world were there is already so much hate and evil, I imagine religion breaks alot of peace and tranquility to loads of people. And without that faith and belief alot of people would maybe struggle to continue or cope, particularly in challenging times. People turn to religion often in times of tragedy as a coping mechanism to give them hope for the future and belief that they'd maybe be reunited with a loved one again or that even though life may be shit right now, that by believing in a greater God maybe they'll have a better future in a different life.

And I think when judging religion you need to consider stuff like the above which the average person may not take into account or understand.

 

[ThehatchetMan]

What's toxic about it? Can you not handle getting challenged?

Sorry I said that in haste as I thought this was a different thread.

I'm not religious and I don't follow or believe in any religion currently. However despite that I still have an open mind towards it and a respect for elements of religion. Happy to be challenged

 

[Peter van der Gea]

I don't agree completely with your first point. I agree in the sense that historically it has certainly been used as a tool to influence things, but not so much in recent history in my opinion. The most racist, misogynist, homophobic people I know tend to be far right atheists such as Andrew Tate or Tommy Robinson for recent examples.

Similarly those who use religion as a tool to try and cause conflict tend to be more narcissistic in nature and not truly religious. Donald Trump being a fine example.

In my community the churches certainly aren't lavish at all and with the exception of services on a Sunday; alot of the stuff they offer the community has little focus on religion. The youth clubs, sports clubs, midday meals for pensioners, gas/electric/food vouchers, charity shop, food bank, visiting the lonely/poorly etc.. etc.. tend to have little to no religious references. Now maybe other religions are a bit more forceful with it but in the methodist church it isn't.

I agree that a central hub doesn't need to be a community building. But all the above I mentioned is funded through donations from the congregation and run by volunteers doing it in their free time to give something back the the community. The reason it's not offered I'm abundance in other hubs is because the average person doesn't really have an interest in volunteering their time and money to give back to their communities. And the hubs which do offer it are usually not run by volunteers but instead salaried staff.

I'm not particularly educated on other religions so I can't comment on all. I've always found Sikhs, Buddhists and Hindus to be particularly welcomening. Islam I find to be a bit more closed off but I don't think the media propoganda helps them. I know they do make an effort to try and open up to others during rammadan and eid though. And all the above plus other religions were very actively involved in doing food parcels etc. During the pandemic.

Of course I do understand alot of your points and maybe I'm not looking at it from as high a level as you are. I agree it can be used as a tool and to cause division.

But I really don't think the average person who follows a religion actually holds alot of hate, if anything I think they're usually alot more caring and generous than the average non religious person. It's the extremists and the media which use it as a tool. Not your average church congregation.

All of the things that you are talking about community-wise can happen without religion, that's just treating people with kindness. Should it matter that your next door neighbour is of a different belief?

All religion does is to other those same neighbours. Look what happened in Punjab and Bangladesh during partition in India, neighbours, some of whom were related to each other, killing because of different religions. Every religion says they love everyone, but they are the cause of division every time.

Being of "x" religion means you are othering those who aren't of that religion, and if a person acts in a way that is not of that religion, they are persecuted.

 

[Carolina Red]

I don't think there's necessarily always as strong as coorelation as you think though.

The more I type though the more I think that the religion I know best (Christianity) and the form (methodist) of it I would have been involved in as a child is much tamer and not as strict or cult like as some other relegions. So maybe I'm seeing things through slightly Rose tinted glasses.

I still don't agree though with this blanket statements on certain groups or stereotyping a relegion on the actions of a minority.

You know that Methodism is going through a messy schism right now, over the issue of sex, right?

 

[Peter van der Gea]

You know that Methodism is going through a messy schism right now, over the issue of sex, right?

Do you mean that some of them want to other people because of sexual orientation? Very open and welcoming...

 

[ThehatchetMan]

You know that Methodism is going through a messy schism right now, over the issue of sex, right?

Like I said I'm not a Christian or of any religion and haven't been. That's just the church I was connected to through boys brigade etc.. And woukd have went to the odd service as a child.

What is the issue though? And is it exclusive to Methodists? By sex I feel it could be transgender related?

 

[ThehatchetMan]

All of the things that you are talking about community-wise can happen without religion, that's just treating people with kindness. Should it matter that your next door neighbour is of a different belief?

All religion does is to other those same neighbours. Look what happened in Punjab and Bangladesh during partition in India, neighbours, some of whom were related to each other, killing because of different religions. Every religion says they love everyone, but they are the cause of division every time.

Being of "x" religion means you are othering those who aren't of that religion, and if a person acts in a way that is not of that religion, they are persecuted.

They can happen without religion but they don't Peter. Or at least not to the same scale.

So while you may not agree with religion yourself if the church is one of the few organisations actually providing entertainment for kids through clubs, company and food for pensioners or raising money to help those in need. Can you not at least respect their views for the good they're doing? Not every person who goes to a church is anti gay, anti trans and anti abortion.

I don't know enough about the conflict you reference to comment. But in recent years alot of wars seem to be more about money and oil rather than religion.

In Northern Ireland our conflict is portrayed as protestant v Catholic and to the outsider appears to be a problem caused by religion. But religion has very little to do with it. 99% of those involved in the conflict have never stepped foot in a Chapel or church. They don't practice either religion. And if anything it was the protestant and Catholic Church who have always been at the forefront of cross community and reconciliation.

So that's a perfect example of a conflict portrayed to be all about religion to the outside but it's not at all.

It's about the British colonising Northern Ireland and taking land of Irish natives and then treating them poorly and discriminating against them for years. Even 40 years ago in London there were signs saying no blacks, no dogs, no Irish.

You have the nationalists who want unification and don't identify as British. And then the unionists who identify as British and want to stay part of the United Kingdom.

So there's the perfect example of a conflict which to the outsider seems like its religious of nature but in reality its not religious at all. British tend to be protestant and Irish tend to be Catholic. Bar that there's no religious element to it and as most of those who fight are atheists, that just further backs it up.

Jeremy Corbyn is another example of media trying to make things all about religion. Because he condemns Israel attacks on hamas he's portrayed as an antisemitie which I don't believe he is at all. And the main people fueling this hate between religions is the media again.

The Palestine Israel conflict again a war all about religion but is it really? I think it probably has alot more to do with their land being occupied by Jewish people after the world war. Just like the Irish have had British occupation in Northern Ireland. Which again has been made out to be a religious conflict but the issue runs much deeper than religion in both cases.

 

[Roane]

I don't interpret that verse in the same way as you, I simply see it as talking more about the better muslims who will take the place of muslims who leave their faith rather than talking about the fate of non-muslims. I dont feel it tells us a lot. I would love to know though when it was revealed and the context, essentially what was going on at the time.

You could have gone with "Let there be no compulsion in religion" though.

However the Quran in my opinon is full of contradictions, like many religious books. Thank you for learning me this word tafsir. Could you tell me what is the time and context for this verse?

" Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin." surah 9:66

itw not difficult to look these things up now you know the word tafsir and what it means.

it takes away the need to interpret things as they are set out and clarified by the tafsir.

WIth r wpefr you are taking verses and just focussing on them whilst the answers you ask for are staring you in the face if only you would broaden your search slightly.

so the verse 9.66 you ask for time and context. In terms of time all surahs, or chapters have a breakdown of when they were revealed, in Mecca or Medina and what they were a response to. The each chapter has a name . So in this case Surah 9 is call Surah Tawbah which basically means repentance. Which gives. Intent to what it is about.

in this case it was around 9 years in and about those days who pretended to be Muslims but we're hypocrites who spoke badly behind the scenes. Some intentionally whilst others just because they weren't really serious.

 

[Roane]

Yes, really.

That Qur'an quote has nothing to do with the burden of proof, it's just an long winded way of saying "you do you".

No not really.

I didn't say the Qur'an has anything to do with burden of proof. I just quoted an ayat that explains how I feel about the original question/statement.

I believe in God, I don't feel the need to prove anything. If someone doesn't good luck to them.

This whole you believe in God, prove it the burden of proof is on you simply doesn't wash with me. I don't have a problem with folk not believing and it amazes me why people who don't believe are so hung up on it.

 

[Roane]

Donald Trump: 'I could shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters'

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ould-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters

Muhammad did that and he did not lose any followers.

Some people are trying hard to portray Trump as some kind of messenger from God, exactly because this will give him the absolute power to do anything without losing any followers.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018...istian-right-bible-cbn-evangelical-propaganda

https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...ssianic-claims-he-embraces-king-israel-title/

Who said Muhammad didn't lose followers? One of the surahs Germahn quoted earlier was all about losing followers.

 

[Roane]

Exactly!

And it is not only the financial gains, don't forget the "spiritual power". Which is a real power. The power to tell the people what to do and how to behave, and the power to "absolve their sins". And the love and the respect of their "community".

Religion in the West today is largely thought of as a "personal matter". But it wasn't like that in the past, and it is not that in most parts of the planet today, especially in Islam. Religion is not a personal affair, it is a community affair, and the leaders of religion have the power to influence the lives of others. They have *the right* to tell you how to live your life. It is not okay if you just stay away from them because that diminishes their power. And they love the power they have over people. That's why many Muslims (and fundamentalists of any religion) dislike atheists more than they dislike other religions. In many Muslim-dominated countries it is very dangerous to openly declare that you are an atheist, it is a blasphemy.

Seperation of church and state has been going on since the 11th and 12th century. By the 18th it was a done deal in many parts of the world. So what past do you speak of?

 

[Roane]

Trump is a con artist. Muhammad was a con artist.

Con artists do not believe the bullshit they are saying. They just want to gain followers because this gives them power. And power also gives them money, which is important for some, especially for Trump.

I'm sorry what?

Power gives them money and you include Muhammad in that? The man who was offered wealth and riches and refused them? The man who excluded himself and his family from certain funds that were available? The man who died destitute despite being a leader of a nation?

I get it you hate religion but come on lad at least look into the people you are slandering

 

[Withnail]

Oh shit I thought it was the serious one. This makes a bit more sense lol!

Well just to expand your point about tolerance and hearing both sides of a debate atheists aren't welcome in the 'serious thread' but sure that thread only has 17 pages in 6 years.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/religion-discussion-read-the-op-before-posting.424322/

 

[2cents]

atheists aren't welcome in the 'serious thread'

Top two posters in that thread are myself and @Carolina Red, neither of us religious (not sure if CR identifies as an atheist but as a label it fits me as well as any).