Religion, what's the point?

Peter van der Gea said:
It would be arrogant to think there aren't beings that can comprehend more than 4 dimensions if there are at least 11, I mean, mathematically we can hypothesise hypercubes, on 4 dimensions of space, but we can't see them.
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Which is completely unrelated to religion though, because religion does not present an abstract concept of a potential reality existing beyond our comprehension - which anyway is utterly meaningless to consider until and unless there's any evidence for it as it doesn't change an iota of how we do or need to function - but religion pretty much tries to paint an exact picture of what happens outside our reality, with hard and fast rules set in stone and clear instructions for people to follow it most of it being based on creating divisiveness and little to do with consideration of a higher being.

You are suggesting something that is closer to spirituality than religion, but even in that case, having an abstract notion of a higher dimension should never be anything more than academic and have absolutely zero involvement in the current world, or the way anyway "needs" to function till the point we have any info whatsoever about this higher dimension.

Either ways, something as trivial as a "what if" scenario causing actual tragedies in the current world time after another is by far the more relevant matter at hand and there's a long way before any such scenario can ever come anywhere close to the weightage of wellbeing of actual people that do exist.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
That doesn't mean it gives any more of a shit about you than you do to a single ant.
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Oh and this, absolutely. Which is what makes people assuming that this imaginary being is by default some kind of a saviour or angel or whatever who is out there to care about them one of the most hilarious things in a space that is utterly baffling in the first place.
 
Moby said:
Which is completely unrelated to religion though, because religion does not present an abstract concept of a potential reality existing beyond our comprehension - which anyway is utterly meaningless to consider until and unless there's any evidence for it as it doesn't change an iota of how we do or need to function - but religion pretty much tries to paint an exact picture of what happens outside our reality, with hard and fast rules set in stone and clear instructions for people to follow it most of it being based on creating divisiveness and little to do with consideration of a higher being.

You are suggesting something that is closer to spirituality than religion, but even in that case, having an abstract notion of a higher dimension should never be anything more than academic and have absolutely zero involvement in the current world, or the way anyway "needs" to function till the point we have any info whatsoever about this higher dimension.

Either ways, something as trivial as a "what if" scenario causing actual tragedies in the current world time after another is by far the more relevant matter at hand and there's a long way before any such scenario can ever come anywhere close to the weightage of wellbeing of actual people that do exist.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not religious. I think organised religions are just a way for men (they're all mainly men driven) to rinse the rest of the population financially and for them to have a cushy job.

I mean, think about it, the biggest, most lavish building in any village, town or city happens to be the one where "God" and his priests live.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not religious. I think organised religions are just a way for men (they're all mainly men driven) to rinse the rest of the population financially and for them to have a cushy job.

I mean, think about it, the biggest, most lavish building in any village, town or city happens to be the one where "God" and his priests live.
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Religion is the original Ponzi scheme.
 
Roane said:
All surahs from the Qur'an have what is called tafsir. This is the detail of when it was revealed, what was happening at the time, if it was specific to that time or event or general etc.

As I understand it it basically, in my words, says if they leave the religion leave them to it as Allah will replace them with even better Muslims. Or to that effect.

The problem as I see with translations is that the people who translated them, Ali, pickthall etc were educated people who used bigger, longer words when the actual words can be understood by someone illiterate (but speaks Arabic).

Also there is the issue of words that have general meanings but also have specific meanings that are only that in terms of the religion.

So for example bidah means innovation. However in terms of Qur'an it means innovation in the Deen specifically. So where we pray 4 fardh as ordered you can't pray 5 as that takes it outside Islam. Or Ismailis who reduced the prayer and Qur'an, automatically become non muslim.

Yet generally the word is used in the context of innovation in terms of a new idea etc. So you get people who say if bidah is wrong why do you fly or use a computer as they didn't exist in the Prophets time. They use to justify their innovation in the faith.

If that makes sense?
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I don't interpret that verse in the same way as you, I simply see it as talking more about the better muslims who will take the place of muslims who leave their faith rather than talking about the fate of non-muslims. I dont feel it tells us a lot. I would love to know though when it was revealed and the context, essentially what was going on at the time.

You could have gone with "Let there be no compulsion in religion" though.

However the Quran in my opinon is full of contradictions, like many religious books. Thank you for learning me this word tafsir. Could you tell me what is the time and context for this verse?

" Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin." surah 9:66
 
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Gehrman said:
I don't interpret that verse in the same way as you, I simply see it as talking more about the better muslims who will take the place of muslims who leave their faith rather than talking about the fate of non-muslims. I dont feel it tells us a lot. I would love to know though when it was revealed and the context, essentially what was going on at the time.

You could have gone with "Let there be no compulsion in religion" though.

However the Quran in my opinon is full of contradictions, like many religious books. Thank you for learning me this word tafsir. Could you tell me what is the time and context for this verse?

" Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin." surah 9:66
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Brother, yes we are all brothers essentially, it's encouraging to see you are engaging and trying to learn. But if I may nitpick with the bolded part if you have only just realised what tafsir means then you are a very long way away from being able to claim about contradictions in a book you seem to know very little about.

However, if it's your opinion (as you have stated) then obviously that's fine however unlearned it may be.
 
Dumbstar said:
Brother, yes we are all brothers essentially, it's encouraging to see you are engaging and trying to learn. But if I may nitpick with the bolded part if you have only just realised what tafsir means then you are a very long way away from being able to claim about contradictions in a book you seem to know very little about.

However, if it's your opinion (as you have stated) then obviously that's fine however unlearned it may be.
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No it's more to do with me not speaking Arabic and hence learning an Arabic word and its meaning in this context. When I talk of contradictions, I could talk about Allah constantly being called the most merciful etc and then the constant talk of the fire and punishment Allah has prepared for unbelievers.

That's a really simple one which repeats itself over and over.
 
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@Gehrman a tafsir is basically a commentary on the Qur'an which seeks to place the surahs in context and deduce broader meaning from them. As such it is an extremely important genre in the (ongoing) history of the production of Islamic law. However different commentators will offer different interpretations of the verses based on their particular approach to a variety of matters. To give three famous examples - the tafsir of Ibn Kathir, a 14th century Shafi'i scholar, is I believe regarded as one of if not the most authoritative works in the genre by Sunni Muslims all the way to the modern age. You will find that later scholars will regularly refer back to his work a lot, even in cases where they may differ slightly. It is said to reflect a fairly straightforward, literal approach to the text, avoiding metaphorical speculation and such. Another famous example is Sayid Qutb's In the Shade of the Qur'an. Qutb was an important figure in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood in the 40s-60s and his legacy helped shape the thoughtof Islamist and jihadist groups long after his death. So you might expect his tafsir to reflect the Islamist outlook of the Islamist trend, with an emphasis on the Qur'an's revolutionary potential. Finally there is Muhammad Asad's Meaning of the Qur'an, which includes his own English translation alongside his commentary. Asad was an Austrian-Jewish convert to Islam in the early 20th century, who, among other things, befriended and advised Ibn Sa'ud and later became a citizen and diplomat in the new state of Pakistan (he also wrote a really interesting memoir called The Road to Mecca which I always recommend as a great examination of the spiritual appeal of Islam for converts). His approach would reflect what is called Islamic Modernism, where the concern would be to reconcile the meaning of the text with the modern world. Of the three, I would guess Asad's is likely the least popular among Muslims today. It should be noted that Ibn Kathir is the only one of the three who would be recognized as an 'alim (scholar), the other two being laymen.

I mention these three not only because they are three of the most famous examples of the genre representing three distinct trends, but because they're all also easily available to find online in English translation. So you will have no problem dipping into them and finding out their approach to these surahs.
 
I don't know why non religious people get so hot and bothered about religion. Whether you think its true or not, why try to question others beliefs or cast doubt over them? Just leave them be if it brings them comfort and they're causing no bother.

The same goes for people of religion who find it's their duty to preach to people who have no affiliation or interest in their religion. Like all those anti gay and anti abortion people. OK cool, according to your scripture it's against gods wishes or whatever. But you should still respect other people's choices and lifestyles and try to be a nice understanding person. Just like most of those people respect your religions and dont try and challenge your views.

Moving away from the whole truth aspect of religion and whether it is fact or fiction.

I do personally find religion is good for bringing communities together and acting as a central hub in different areas. I think as I've grown older I've also grown to learn that it's alot more difficult to join clubs and make friends as you age. So I can see why alot of people maybe turn to religion because they have that open door policy for all.

I also feel that being part of a church or religion brings a sense of togetherness and community. From children through to pensioners most churches have a variety of youth clubs, summer schemes, pensioners clubs and outreach programmes for the most vulnerable.

Not sure where I'm going with this. But not all religions are bad and I feel that the amount of support which they offer to the young, elderly, lonely and vulnerable is massively underestimated too.

The issue is more with the extremists within each religion rather than the religions themselves.

BTW I'm not of any religion myself and don't attend any religious gatherings either.
 
ThehatchetMan said:
I don't know why non religious people get so hot and bothered about religion. Whether you think its true or not, why try to question others beliefs or cast doubt over them? Just leave them be if it brings them comfort and they're causing no bother.

The same goes for people of religion who find it's their duty to preach to people who have no affiliation or interest in their religion. Like all those anti gay and anti abortion people. OK cool, according to your scripture it's against gods wishes or whatever. But you should still respect other people's choices and lifestyles and try to be a nice understanding person. Just like most of those people respect your religions and dont try and challenge your views.

Moving away from the whole truth aspect of religion and whether it is fact or fiction.

I do personally find religion is good for bringing communities together and acting as a central hub in different areas. I think as I've grown older I've also grown to learn that it's alot more difficult to join clubs and make friends as you age. So I can see why alot of people maybe turn to religion because they have that open door policy for all.

I also feel that being part of a church or religion brings a sense of togetherness and community. From children through to pensioners most churches have a variety of youth clubs, summer schemes, pensioners clubs and outreach programmes for the most vulnerable.

Not sure where I'm going with this. But not all religions are bad and I feel that the amount of support which they offer to the young, elderly, lonely and vulnerable is massively underestimated too.

The issue is more with the extremists within each religion rather than the religions themselves.

BTW I'm not of any religion myself and don't attend any religious gatherings either.
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This is a discussion forum. If you don't to want discuss why bother with this thread?
 
ThehatchetMan said:
I don't know why non religious people get so hot and bothered about religion. Whether you think its true or not, why try to question others beliefs or cast doubt over them? Just leave them be if it brings them comfort and they're causing no bother.

The same goes for people of religion who find it's their duty to preach to people who have no affiliation or interest in their religion. Like all those anti gay and anti abortion people. OK cool, according to your scripture it's against gods wishes or whatever. But you should still respect other people's choices and lifestyles and try to be a nice understanding person. Just like most of those people respect your religions and dont try and challenge your views.

Moving away from the whole truth aspect of religion and whether it is fact or fiction.

I do personally find religion is good for bringing communities together and acting as a central hub in different areas. I think as I've grown older I've also grown to learn that it's alot more difficult to join clubs and make friends as you age. So I can see why alot of people maybe turn to religion because they have that open door policy for all.

I also feel that being part of a church or religion brings a sense of togetherness and community. From children through to pensioners most churches have a variety of youth clubs, summer schemes, pensioners clubs and outreach programmes for the most vulnerable.

Not sure where I'm going with this. But not all religions are bad and I feel that the amount of support which they offer to the young, elderly, lonely and vulnerable is massively underestimated too.

The issue is more with the extremists within each religion rather than the religions themselves.

BTW I'm not of any religion myself and don't attend any religious gatherings either.
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Because religion has been used, in every age on record, as an excuse to persecute, discriminate and go to war against huge sways of society, like women, ethnic minorities, homosexuals and trans people.

This central hub does not have to be a religious building, which as I mentioned happen to be the most lavish place in the community, where men live. Early Christians banned outdoor religious gathering because they lost out financially. If you want to meet your community, do a favour for your neighbour, you don't have to go to some buildong and chant words together.

And as for an open door, sorry mate, I haven't seen a single religious organization with an open door policy. They might profess it, but they don't.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
Because religion has been used, in every age on record, as an excuse to persecute, discriminate and go to war against huge sways of society, like women, ethnic minorities, homosexuals and trans people.

This central hub does not have to be a religious building, which as I mentioned happen to be the most lavish place in the community, where men live. Early Christians banned outdoor religious gathering because they lost out financially. If you want to meet your community, do a favour for your neighbour, you don't have to go to some buildong and chant words together.

And as for an open door, sorry mate, I haven't seen a single religious organization with an open door policy. They might profess it, but they don't.
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Religion has also been used to commit genocide against other religions.
 
Gehrman said:
No it's more to do with me not speaking Arabic and hence learning an Arabic word and its meaning in this context. When I talk of contradictions, I could talk about Allah constantly being called the most merciful etc and then the constant talk of the fire and punishment Allah has prepared for unbelievers.

That's a really simple one which repeats itself over and over.
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The point that you're missing is that if you're genuinely interested in learning (and I think it's clear that you're not), you would have some idea what the term tafsir means, as it's a pretty central avenue to understanding the Qu'ran.

What @Roane and @Dumbstar are having to deal with however is you copy pasting verses and opinions from websites, devoid of context and expecting an answer. But, the question is - what's the point? Your understanding is so limited, it doesn't seem like you're up for discussing or understanding and you're more concerned with point scoring.
 
The Corinthian said:
The point that you're missing is that if you're genuinely interested in learning (and I think it's clear that you're not), you would have some idea what the term tafsir means, as it's a pretty central avenue to understanding the Qu'ran.

What @Roane and @Dumbstar are having to deal with however is you copy pasting verses and opinions from websites, devoid of context and expecting an answer. But, the question is - what's the point? Your understanding is so limited, it doesn't seem like you're up for discussing or understanding and you're more concerned with point scoring.
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We are discussing the Quran on the point of apostacy. The surah Roane mentioned had no context and is very brief. If he can explain the context, I would like to know that. There is at the moment not much more than I'm looking than that with my discussion with them.

Commentary on religious scripture is nothing new, I just said that I didn't know Arabic word and its meaning.
 
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Gehrman said:
We are discussing the Quran on the point of apostacy. The surah Roane mentioned had no context and is very brief. If he can explain the context, I would like to know that. There is at the moment not much more than I'm looking than that with my discussion with them.

Commentary on religious scripture is nothing new, I just said that I didn't know Arabic word and its meaning.
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@Roane has answered this though - on the last page and to another poster separately.
 
ThehatchetMan said:
Just leave them be if it brings them comfort and they're causing no bother.
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Yeah just like the completely sane peaceful and harmless guy a couple of pages back who was casually beating his wife for cutting their daughters hair and making her look "more like a lesbian" which goes against his religious beliefs? If you haven't a clue the amount of atrocities that are born from these texts and go on both inside and outside people's homes just do some research.

Anyone who has the audacity to still come up with bollocks like religion is peaceful or harmless needs to be shot into the sun.
 
The Corinthian said:
How would you know what’s sufficient? What’s the barometer?
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Providing the historical context and timing at least. It's a surah that tells you nothing apart from the fact that Allah will replace apostates with better Muslims and that's it. It's very short and tells you very little.

What's sufficient for you might not be sufficient for me.
 
Gehrman said:
Providing the historical context and timing at least. It's a surah that tells you nothing apart from the fact that Allah will replace apostates with better Muslims and that's it. It's very short and tells you very little.
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You're getting mixed up between the Surah - in this case Surah 5, "Al-Ma'idah" - and the verses (Ayat) - which comprise it. You can't take one short ayah in isolation like that, it must be read and understood in the context the ayat that precede and follow it, and more broadly in the context of the Surah itself.
 
2cents said:
You're getting mixed up between the Surah - in this case Surah 5, "Al-Ma'idah" - and the verses (Ayat) - which comprise it. You can't take one short ayah in isolation like that, it must be read and understood in the context the ayat that precede and follow it, and more broadly in the context of the Surah itself.
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Well that's what Roane quoted. I take your point though.
 
Peter van der Gea said:
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not religious. I think organised religions are just a way for men (they're all mainly men driven) to rinse the rest of the population financially and for them to have a cushy job.

I mean, think about it, the biggest, most lavish building in any village, town or city happens to be the one where "God" and his priests live.
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Exactly!

And it is not only the financial gains, don't forget the "spiritual power". Which is a real power. The power to tell the people what to do and how to behave, and the power to "absolve their sins". And the love and the respect of their "community".

Religion in the West today is largely thought of as a "personal matter". But it wasn't like that in the past, and it is not that in most parts of the planet today, especially in Islam. Religion is not a personal affair, it is a community affair, and the leaders of religion have the power to influence the lives of others. They have *the right* to tell you how to live your life. It is not okay if you just stay away from them because that diminishes their power. And they love the power they have over people. That's why many Muslims (and fundamentalists of any religion) dislike atheists more than they dislike other religions. In many Muslim-dominated countries it is very dangerous to openly declare that you are an atheist, it is a blasphemy.
 
Roane said:
Not really

As the Qur'an says you believe what you believe I believe what I believe, you won't believe what I believe and I won't believe what you believe, to you your way to me mine
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Yes, really.

That Qur'an quote has nothing to do with the burden of proof, it's just an long winded way of saying "you do you".
 
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Gehrman said:
Well that's what Roane quoted. I take your point though.
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For what it's worth, this is how Muhammad Asad who I mentioned above introduces Surah 5:

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ACCORDING to all the available evidence, this surah constitutes one of the last sections of the Qur'an revealed to the Prophet. The consensus of opinion places it in the period of his Farewell Pilgrimage, in the year 10 H. It takes its title from the request for a "repast from heaven" made by the disciples of Jesus (verse 112), and from Jesus' prayer in this connection (verse 114). The surah begins with a call to the believers to fulfil their spiritual and social responsibilities, and ends with a reminder, of man's utter dependence on God, whose is "the dominion over the heavens and the earth and all that they contain". Being one of the last revelations vouchsafed to the Prophet, it lays down a series of ordinances relating to religious rites and to various social obligations; but, at the same time, it warns the followers of the Qur'an not to enlarge the area of divine ordinances by means of subjective deduction (verse 101), since this might make it difficult for them to act in accordance with God's Law, and might ultimately lead them to denying the truth of revelation as such (verse 102). They are also warned not to take the Jews and the Christians for their "allies" in the moral sense of the word: that is, not to imitate their way of life and their social concepts at the expense of the principles of Islam (verses 51 ff.). This latter warning is necessitated by the fact, repeatedly stressed in this surah, that both the​
Jews and the Christians have abandoned and corrupted the truths conveyed to them by their prophets, and thus no longer adhere to the genuine, original message of the Bible (verse 68). In particular, the Jews are taken to task for having become "blind and deaf [of heart]" (verses 70-71, and passim), and the Christians, for having deified Jesus in clear contravention of his own God-inspired teachings (verses 72-77 and 116-118).​
​
Addressing the various religious communities, the Qur'an states in verse 48: "Unto every one of you have We appointed a [different] law and way of life .... Vie, then, with one another in doing good works!" And once again, all true believers - of whatever persuasion - are assured that "all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve" (verse 69).​
​
The crowning statement of the whole surah is found in verse 3, which was revealed to the Prophet shortly before his death: "Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me (alislam) shall be your religion."​
​
 
Let me add that being an atheist can be argued to be a blasphemy since we, the atheists, openly say that the Muhammad was a con artist and studying the Quran is as important as studying a "Nigerian Letter".

Obviously the same has been said for studying the Bible, and Christian fundamentalists are not very happy about it. The difference is that in the West, religion does not interfere with the Courts (at least it used to be like that, unfortunately this may change in the US). In Muslim countries you also have the Sharia, which does not have anything similar in Christianity, it is something that reminds us of the Inquisition but that was about 500 years ago. In general, Islam is a total domination over human beings, which is very different from the main ideas in the West today.
 
Carolina Red said:
Very much this in evangelical dominated parts of the US as well.
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Of course! That's the point. That's one of the main goals of religion everywhere. For any religion, at any time. In Greece, there are many writers today that deride the West because "the domination of individuality has destroyed the community" (Orthodox Christians are much closer to Muslims in many ideas).

One of the main reasons that some smart humans (capable con artists) invented religion was to dominate over other people. The hard way was to fight others and show you are the strongest. The easy way is to tell them that god speaks through you and they have to follow you. But for this to be optimally effective, you need a community --- if everyone is allowed to believe whatever, you lose power.
 
Donald Trump: 'I could shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters'

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ould-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters

Muhammad did that and he did not lose any followers.

Some people are trying hard to portray Trump as some kind of messenger from God, exactly because this will give him the absolute power to do anything without losing any followers.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018...istian-right-bible-cbn-evangelical-propaganda

https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...ssianic-claims-he-embraces-king-israel-title/
 
ThinkTank@Cafe said:
Why atheists are so aggressive and think all other people are dumb? May be because they are atheists?
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I think many are fed up with how religion affects our lives, look at things like abortion in the US.

I don't think all religious people are dumb, but it's strange how those with highest IQ in the world pretty much are all atheist, isn't it?
Smarter people spend more thinking things through, and don't just accept what they're told.

I googled it, this was one of the first i found that looked quite torough.

https://human-intelligence.org/iq-and-religion/
 
frostbite said:
Donald Trump: 'I could shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters'
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I highly doubt Trump is religious, i think he's just using it because he knows that's where he can pull most voters.
If he in fact is very religious, he's a shit one :lol:
 
Grylte said:
I highly doubt Trump is religious, i think he's just using it because he knows that's where he can pull most voters.
If he in fact is very religious, he's a shit one :lol:
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Trump is a con artist. Muhammad was a con artist.

Con artists do not believe the bullshit they are saying. They just want to gain followers because this gives them power. And power also gives them money, which is important for some, especially for Trump.
 
Grylte said:
I highly doubt Trump is religious, i think he's just using it because he knows that's where he can pull most voters.
If he in fact is very religious, he's a shit one :lol:
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Can’t find the interview where he is asked repeatedly to say what babble verse is his favorite. His response was ‘all of them.’

Here’s a fun clip about the zeal of evangelicals towards their messiah…

 
calodo2003 said:
Can’t find the interview where he is asked repeatedly to say what babble verse is his favorite. His response was ‘all of them.’

Here’s a fun clip about the zeal of evangelicals towards their messiah…

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....
Well, i guess the intelligence part checks out atleast.
It's so crazy to think that these people actually believe what they are saying.
 
Guru Nanak said, "there is no muslim and there is no hindu" there are only people trying to be, learning to be. I grew up Sikh, Sikh means learner, nothing else. None of you are Muslim Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, you're just learning how to be.

Show me a perfect man.
 
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