Religion, what's the point?

Best to not let either party get too frustrated and just say that let us all believe or not, what we want to believe or not

It's just the last few years the numbers of atheists has gone up, i assume because of education and access to information online, but keep in mind that us who don't believe, have had religion pushed down our throats out entire lives.
Schools, having to go to church for funerals, weddings, baptisms, confirmations (if that's the English word for it), and so on, we've been through the "other people telling us what to believe" since birth.

I just can't understand how people can believe there is a god that helps them with every day stuff, while there are millions of children dying from starvation, cancer, wars, and so on, but hey, god helped us win the football match, or boxing fight, or whatever.
I don't want to tell people how to live, but i am not going to behave like this or that because it might offend someone's religion, that i don't believe in. Meanwhile, religious people around me, at work, do not care if their religious actions affects me, but expects me to respect them washing their feet in the sink where i wash my hands at work.
 
It's just the last few years the numbers of atheists has gone up, i assume because of education and access to information online, but keep in mind that us who don't believe, have had religion pushed down our throats out entire lives.
Schools, having to go to church for funerals, weddings, baptisms, confirmations (if that's the English word for it), and so on, we've been through the "other people telling us what to believe" since birth.

I just can't understand how people can believe there is a god that helps them with every day stuff, while there are millions of children dying from starvation, cancer, wars, and so on, but hey, god helped us win the football match, or boxing fight, or whatever.
I don't want to tell people how to live, but i am not going to behave like this or that because it might offend someone's religion, that i don't believe in. Meanwhile, religious people around me, at work, do not care if their religious actions affects me, but expects me to respect them washing their feet in the sink where i wash my hands at work.
I understand.
 
It's just the last few years the numbers of atheists has gone up, i assume because of education and access to information online, but keep in mind that us who don't believe, have had religion pushed down our throats out entire lives.
Schools, having to go to church for funerals, weddings, baptisms, confirmations (if that's the English word for it), and so on, we've been through the "other people telling us what to believe" since birth.

I just can't understand how people can believe there is a god that helps them with every day stuff, while there are millions of children dying from starvation, cancer, wars, and so on, but hey, god helped us win the football match, or boxing fight, or whatever.
I don't want to tell people how to live, but i am not going to behave like this or that because it might offend someone's religion, that i don't believe in. Meanwhile, religious people around me, at work, do not care if their religious actions affects me, but expects me to respect them washing their feet in the sink where i wash my hands at work.

Where on earth do you work?
 
Why has neither God nor any religion reacted to the digital age?

I often wonder why they (and I mean all gods/holy books/etc) always chose the ages where there was minimal at best writing to reveal themselves. I mean they knew the society we'd become, so why not swoop in and inform us now? Why leave it to "faith", one of the nonsensical and outdated concepts ever to exist?
 
I have encountered many Southerners who have adamantly discussed the truth of religion, mainly christian figures within, being such because the Babble exists. They have difficulty circling the square of why different versions of the Babble exist if theirs is sacrosanct to them & completely pure & true in their form. They also have difficulty understanding the marketing aspect of their religious tome, causing the different versions.
I love how the "KJV only" types will argue in one breath that the Bible cannot be corrupted by man, and in the next breath argue that all other versions of the Bible have been corrupted by man.
 
Why has neither God nor any religion reacted to the digital age?

I often wonder why they (and I mean all gods/holy books/etc) always chose the ages where there was minimal at best writing to reveal themselves. I mean they knew the society we'd become, so why not swoop in and inform us now? Why leave it to "faith", one of the nonsensical and outdated concepts ever to exist?
Scientology, bro.
 
Excuse me interjecting but there's no proof to offer. Belief isn't based on proof but faith so you possibly may be expecting too much.

Exactly. He has faith. Faith which I don't share but faith which I respect in that he is perfectly entitled to have such faith and he should not be discriminated for that.
So, let us just agree to disagree.
 
Exactly. He has faith. Faith which I don't share but faith which I respect in that he is perfectly entitled to have such faith and he should not be discriminated for that.
So, let us just agree to disagree.
By all means.
 
It's just the last few years the numbers of atheists has gone up...
Have they? It doesn't feel like that to me in the UK. If anything, it feels like a swing away from secularism in general. That is, however, not something I have evidence for. Censuses are not a good indicator of numbers as people may or may not identify as culturally belonging to a religion, whilst not actually so, in varying levels.
 
Excuse me interjecting but there's no proof to offer. Belief isn't based on proof but faith so you possibly may be expecting too much.

With respect, why would you want to live by faith? That seems truly perplexing and counter-intuitive to me.
 
With respect, why would you want to live by faith? That seems truly perplexing and counter-intuitive to me.
And back at you, with respect I feel that any answer I give you may only frustrate you at my stupidity given what you feel you know. Personally I don't feel it will be productive.
 
And back at you, with respect I feel that any answer I give you may only frustrate you at my stupidity given what you feel you know. Personally I don't feel it will be productive.

I don't think you're stupid.

It was a genuine question as I'm just wanting to understand is all.
 
I don't think you're stupid.

It was a genuine question as I'm just wanting to understand is all.
I'm not a really good christian @cesc's_mullet - my role in life, in this is simply to stand up and be counted. When I was a child and forced to go to church as many have said here that they were I might have wanted to believe but I didn't. As an adult my experiences won't mean anything to you but the sum of them or the path they led me down has resulted in my knowing. How do I know? I simply feel God's presence and it is all around us. To me I cannot look around me and not see and feel his design and work in everything. How can I un-know it? It isn't possible. So why would I want to live by faith? I simply do and that is very probably a very unsatisfactory answer to you who lives by everything having to be empirically proved and I apologise.
 
I'm not a really good christian @cesc's_mullet - my role in life, in this is simply to stand up and be counted. When I was a child and forced to go to church as many have said here that they were I might have wanted to believe but I didn't. As an adult my experiences won't mean anything to you but the sum of them or the path they led me down has resulted in my knowing. How do I know? I simply feel God's presence and it is all around us. To me I cannot look around me and not see and feel his design and work in everything. How can I un-know it? It isn't possible. So why would I want to live by faith? I simply do and that is very probably a very unsatisfactory answer to you who lives by everything having to be empirically proved and I apologise.

Thanks for the honest response.

I have no personal issue with you, or other Christians specifically for believing.

My main (universal) issue with religion is the flaunting of the virtually non-existent separation of religion and state, and that other people have their lives negatively affected by religious believers, due to their religious beliefs. IMO until any of the numerous religions can be proven to be true, then they should stay out of schools, politics, etc.

For a bit of context - one of my brothers is an avid Christian, he's even gone to Africa 7 times (and lived there for a year) to work in missions, travelling through dangerous areas, etc.. Whilst I don't share his beliefs at all he is still the person that I admire the most, for his courage and his convictions, and for just being an absolute legend of a person.

So it's not like I'm out there looking for religious folk to insult or abuse.
 
Thanks for the honest response.

I have no personal issue with you, or other Christians specifically for believing.

My main (universal) issue with religion is the flaunting of the virtually non-existent separation of religion and state, and that other people have their lives negatively affected by religious believers, due to their religious beliefs. IMO until any of the numerous religions can be proven to be true, then they should stay out of schools, politics, etc.

For a bit of context - one of my brothers is an avid Christian, he's even gone to Africa 7 times (and lived there for a year) to work in missions, travelling through dangerous areas, etc.. Whilst I don't share his beliefs at all he is still the person that I admire the most, for his courage and his convictions, and for just being an absolute legend of a person.

So it's not like I'm out there looking for religious folk to insult or abuse.
That's ok, I've no problem with people asking me questions and I'll try to answer as best I can but asking a christian to prove why they believe is like proving unicorns exist. However we all still share some beliefs, moral or things we take on faith to some degree. Being a christian does not mean we are better than anyone who is not one. Being a christian is not about being glad we are christians, that we will go to Heaven and that they will go to Hell and damn well deserve it.

What your brother does sounds amazing and definitely not something I would desperately want to do but I would also say that there are plenty of non-christians or non-believers in any religion who also have these convictions too. Being a christian probably simply means we feel led to do something though. I admire anyone ready to give their safety and lives to help other people. As christians maybe we feel we know why.

There are greedy people and there are those who want to make life a bit better for everyone. A greedy christian is still a work in progress and is going to have a very difficult session one day attempting to explain themselves.
 
Thanks for the honest response.

I have no personal issue with you, or other Christians specifically for believing.

My main (universal) issue with religion is the flaunting of the virtually non-existent separation of religion and state, and that other people have their lives negatively affected by religious believers, due to their religious beliefs. IMO until any of the numerous religions can be proven to be true, then they should stay out of schools, politics, etc.

For a bit of context - one of my brothers is an avid Christian, he's even gone to Africa 7 times (and lived there for a year) to work in missions, travelling through dangerous areas, etc.. Whilst I don't share his beliefs at all he is still the person that I admire the most, for his courage and his convictions, and for just being an absolute legend of a person.

So it's not like I'm out there looking for religious folk to insult or abuse.

If its any consolation mate, I can confirm from my experience, very few lawyers either believe in religion, or in any event, allow it to guide the decisions that we make. Its quite an indicator that our law society and nearly every big law firm in the Country was fully supportive of the yes vote in the same sex plebiscite. In fact it was a very small minority of the legal community that opposed it.
 
If its any consolation mate, I can confirm from my experience, very few lawyers either believe in religion, or in any event, allow it to guide the decisions that we make. Its quite an indicator that our law society and nearly every big law firm in the Country was fully supportive of the yes vote in the same sex plebiscite. In fact it was a very small minority of the legal community that opposed it.

We are lucky that Australia is a bit more forward thinking and secular than other places.
 
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All these youtube influencers got me thinking. Jesus and Mohammed were basically the youtube influencers of their time. Difference being that humanity still erects buildings in their honour 2000 years later.

Who the feck are we to question our children's intelligence for worshipping these halfwits on youtube whilst maintaining this circus on such a grand scale.

Silly if you ask me.
 
All these youtube influencers got me thinking. Jesus and Mohammed were basically the youtube influencers of their time. Difference being that humanity still erects buildings in their honour 2000 years later.

Who the feck are we to question our children's intelligence for worshipping these halfwits on youtube whilst maintaining this circus on such a grand scale.

Silly if you ask me.

Are you trying to say Jesus and Muhammad are equivalent of Pewdiepie and likes?
 
Are you trying to say Jesus and Muhammad are equivalent of Pewdiepie and likes?
Yes.

If you take everything else away they were simply guys who climbed on a soap box and yelled look at me Im the son of God and I will now tell you the correct way to live. Just like these youtube clowns do. Now that they are actually starting to inspire people to hurt each other makes it all the more apt imo.
 
All these youtube influencers got me thinking. Jesus and Mohammed were basically the youtube influencers of their time. Difference being that humanity still erects buildings in their honour 2000 years later.

Who the feck are we to question our children's intelligence for worshipping these halfwits on youtube whilst maintaining this circus on such a grand scale.

Silly if you ask me.

I used to say similar except David Koresh was my example, and I think an even better one. Persecuted and killed by the Pax Romana of his age. If we're still around in 500 years he could be the new Jesus.
 
Agree. There were multiple Jesus's doing the rounds at that time. The Bible even has Jesus being born in multiple locations. There are just far too many inconsistencies.

Can you explain your assertion that the Bible has Jesus born in multiple locations? As far as I’m aware, Matthew and Luke state He was born in Bethlehem. Mark doesn’t record a birth story, and neither does John. Since Jesus moved to Nazareth he is referred to as Jesus of Nazareth. I fail to see the inconsistency.
 
Can you explain your assertion that the Bible has Jesus born in multiple locations? As far as I’m aware, Matthew and Luke state He was born in Bethlehem. Mark doesn’t record a birth story, and neither does John. Since Jesus moved to Nazareth he is referred to as Jesus of Nazareth. I fail to see the inconsistency.

Inconsistencies regarding the date and location:
The two narratives given in Matthew and Luke are contrary to each other. Luke even contradicts itself.

Matthew states that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, in a house. Matthew states that the wise men visited him in the house, and made no mention of the animal feeding trough (see below).

Luke states that he was born in a stable/barn - and he was put in a manger (feeding trough), "as there was no room in the Inn."

Luke states Cesar Augustus ordered an empire wide census to be taken for taxation purposes. Everyone was to be taxed in their own city. Joseph was in Nazareth, so had to get to Bethlehem (as he was of the house and lineage of David).

However there is no record, ever, of any such census having been taken. And think of the logistics of having to have everyone go back to their ancestral home across the whole entire Roman Empire, just to go through the census. Something like that would have been recorded, but it wasn't (however many other census's are recorded throughout these times and ages, so it can't be argued that they were not recorded in general). In reality Luke needed Joseph to be in Bethlehem for the sake of the 'prophecy.'

Luke states he "investigated this carefully." Which doesn't seem to be the case.

Note that Luke wrote this approx 80 years after the event too.

Natthew states that he was born during Herod's reign. Herod is noted to have died in March or April 4BC.

Matthew goes further to imply that he was born at least two years prior to that, as Herod: "sent and slew all males in Bethlehem (and all it's environs) from two years old and younger."

Luke suggests that Jesus was born 6CE. He states that he was born during a census whilst Publius Sulpicius Quirinius (also known as Cyrenius) was governor of Syria. The one recorded tenure of Quirinius confirms that the census was taken on A.D. 6 (Julius calendar), which was a decade after Herod the Great's death.

So both Luke and Matthew have him now born 12 years apart.

Luke states that Jesus's birth took place "in the days of Herod," and also, "while Quirinius was governor of Syria." That is at least 10 years apart.

Inconsistencies regarding the stories in general:

1). Luke states that Mary was visited by Gabriel and told of the pregnancy. Matthew states that Joseph was visited by an angel in his dream, and told of Mary's pregnancy. Now you could just argue that both stories are being told from either side.

2).
How does a star point out a house? I know that the bible states that stars could come down and do battle with men ("the stars from their courses did battle with Sisera"), but that seems a little far-fetched to me.

3). Matthew tells of the wise men. Luke tells of an angel visiting some Shepherd, telling them of great joy and that they'd find the baby in a manger (which is not a house).

4). Luke states that Jesus got circumcised 8 days later, that they visited the lord in Jerusalem, and then went back to Nazareth. Whilst Matthew states that Joseph was visited by an Angel and told to flee to Egypt (and await further instructions) as Herod was going to order the death of him.

They fled, and Herod was mad and ordered the death of the babies aged two and younger. Then after Herod died Joseph was visited again, and told to go Nazareth, so Jesus could be called the Nazarene.

5). No recordings of this mass infanticide have ever been found. And similar to the blatant copying of the Epic of Gilgamesh, and the stories of Atrahasis and Ziusudra - in relation to the Noah myth - the killing of babies when an important figue was born seemingly repeated itself, as it apparently happened when Moses was born too.

6). Matthew states, in relation to living in Nazareth, "that it might be fullfilled which was spoken by the prophets, he shall be called a Nazarene." However there is no mention anywhere of Nazareth in the old Testament.

Now there is an annotation in the King James version, referencing Judges 13:5 - "for low, thou shall conceive and bear a son; and no razor shall come too his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto god from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hands of the Philistines."

However this is clearly a reference to Sampson. And a Nazarite is someone who takes as n aesthetic/lifestyle vow and will refrain from cutting their hair, wine and being around corpses.

Nazarite does not equal Nazarene. Seemingly this was originally a mistranslation from Matthew, or him trying to wedge a fulfilled prophecy in there.

To Recap:

Luke:
An angel told Mary.
Matthew: An angel told Joseph.

Luke:
Querinius held a census at this time.
Matthew: Herod sends out the (un-numbered) wise men to find Jesus.

Note that this would have had to have been about a dozen years apart.

Luke:
They go to Bethlehem. The inn is booked, so they stay in the stable where he is born. He's put in a trough (manger) and an Angel tells some farmers to visit them.
Matthew: The wise men follow a star to a house, and find him in the nice and cosy home.

Luke:
They leave for Nazareth.
Matthew: They escape to Egypt. Whilst Herod kills all the babies (which was never recorded anywhere). Eventually they go to Nazareth once another angel gives them the all clear, to 'fulfil the prophecy' - which was a mistranslation.

So yes, there are just far too many inconsistencies. Surely such an important story, arguably the most important story ever told, would be a whole lot more reliable? And surely it would appear in more than just two of the books in the bible - though I guess if they had just got it right one time That would have been better than having two completely contradictory tales.
 
Do you realise that the mythical Jesus is an amalgamation of many other, earlier, dieties and mythical figures that pre-date him?
 
I am also awaiting the context you said that I'm missing when reading those horrible verses, teachings and endorsements from your god.
 
I’ve actually gone through this exact conversation with believing colleagues. They made a lot of excuses and basically said all the other history was wrong, not the Bible.

Yeah the argument genenerally falls back to that, or that we 'just don't understand,' or we are missing the context - which I think is the best one. Why would the inerrant word of God himself need to be explained to me by someone else? Why are there thousands of sects of Christianity, all with differences in beliefs?

The other best one is that god was just training us (in relation to god and Jesus's endorsement / non-rejection of slavery), so that we could abolish slavery later. Or they claim that it was all indentured servitude, which it was definitely not. This is instead of god just saying 'no slavery' in the first place.
 
I’ve actually gone through this exact conversation with believing colleagues. They made a lot of excuses and basically said all the other history was wrong, not the Bible.

Basically this probably sums up very well why I’m not an atheist, but an anti-theist.
 
I’ve actually gone through this exact conversation with believing colleagues. They made a lot of excuses and basically said all the other history was wrong, not the Bible.

In South Carolina? If you have the chance, ask them about the following. It is just standard astronomy. I'd be curious what they think about it... if they are capable of grasping these numbers and their meaning (which is not easy). Is Astronomy wrong, too?


Voyager 1 just left the solar system. It has been travelling for 40 years, with a speed of about 40,000 mph. To arrive to the nearest star, it needs to travel for about 70,000 years. That next star is actually very close to us. There are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy. There are 2 trillion galaxies out there.

Stars in a galaxy: 200,000,000,000
Number of galaxies: 2,000,000,000,000

If you multiply these two numbers, you get:

400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars.

And remember, we need to travel for 70,000 years to arrive to the nearest star.
 
So to cut a long story short...

Mary got railed by some dude (probably one of the three wisemen), fell pregnant and to cover it up, made some bullshit story about immaculate conception and suddenly the mythical story of jesus is created.

These hoes aint loyal

I've probably just offended a shit tonne of people, but when the third most powerful person in the Catholic Church (some would say all of christianity) has gone to prison for face fecking little boys and some nut job has just gone a rampage killing 49 muslims... I really dont give a feck. It's all a load of shit
 
So to cut a long story short...

Mary got railed by some dude (probably one of the three wisemen), fell pregnant and to cover it up, made some bullshit story about immaculate conception and suddenly the mythical story of jesus is created.

These hoes aint loyal

I've probably just offended a shit tonne of people, but when the third most powerful person in the Catholic Church (some would say all of christianity) has gone to prison for face fecking little boys and some nut job has just gone a rampage killing 49 muslims... I really dont give a feck. It's all a load of shit

As a real actual wise man once said - "what is more likely, that the laws of reality are suspended (in your favor)...

... Or that a Jewish minx should tell a lie?"
 
In South Carolina? If you have the chance, ask them about the following. It is just standard astronomy. I'd be curious what they think about it... if they are capable of grasping these numbers and their meaning (which is not easy). Is Astronomy wrong, too?

Having discussed the universe and physics with a number of religious friends and especially how 'fine tuned' it is to allow matter, galaxies, stars and planets, none seem to have related this fine tuning to God.

As we are now learning, the way OUR universe developed during the first tiny fractions of a second were critical to our universe turning out the way it has.

Miniscule difference and our universe would have turned out totally different.
 
You are trying to find the logic of the feeling of a believer by analyzing a collection of texts from two thousand years ago , and falling again and again in the "if you can not prove the existence of God, why do you believe in him".
And for the times that I have had this conversation you will soon fall into the "if God exists, why he/she/it allows diseases and evil"

Maybe it sounds cheesy but everything is based on faith and ideas, with which we lead our lives.
Find and feel God in a personal way.
Jesus was at least 37 years old when he died,and there is a great void in his life, and Mary Magdalene( and children?),maybe his father was a Roman soldier, or he was Issa who travelled to India and brought back new ideas,or the magician who traveled to Egypt, or maybe it was a coup to the dangerous cult of John the Baptist, and the symbols of other religions, such as the number twelve, or Nicea and the emperor Constantine, etc.

Any restless Christian can find all that information if he wants to. Believe all the miracles, visions, mystics, apparitions, or believe some. Be happy reading the Bible while following the standard catechesis or tend more to a life of spiritual retreat and service to the others , Or do nothing, simply try to apply the commandments and live in peace with the feeling that everything is the work of God.

Personally I like to think that something great happened in Judea 2000 years ago. An event that involved thousands of texts, of men willing to tell, of martyrs willing to die in the idea, and who throughout history inspired many people, always based on the love of others. Great thinkers, saints, mystics who explained the faith in God. Huge material to be inspired, if one is willing and wants to know Jesus.
Reading the Bible, and only the bible until reciting it seems something from the movies.

I am not an expert on the gospels but I never understood them as Jesus dictating to the evangelists what they had to write, but rather as a compilation of texts and sayings from the time of Jesus. The discovery of Nag Hammady stirred that theory.
 
An interesting interview:

Atheism Is Inconsistent with the Scientific Method, Prizewinning Physicist Says

Marcelo Gleiser recipient of the 2019 Templeton Prize said:
What I mean by that is, what is atheism? It’s a statement, a categorical statement that expresses belief in nonbelief. “I don’t believe even though I have no evidence for or against, simply I don’t believe.” Period. It’s a declaration. But in science we don’t really do declarations. We say, “Okay, you can have a hypothesis, you have to have some evidence against or for that.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/...cientific-method-prizewinning-physicist-says/