I'm dealing with runny cat shit stains in my carpet. I think you can handle Silva.
Religion, what's the point?
- Thread starter TheRedFlag
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A new thread would be a great idea,to discuss only things about the religion, what we do in our normal life related to religion, anecdotes,doubts,things to read, etc.
Damn safe spaces
How do the atheists and agnostics amongst us feel about things like movies based on bible stories, religious music, etc?
See I am not what you would call religious at all, but I do enjoy some movies like Heston version of The Ten Commandments, the source of the story does not bother me, I mean what is the difference between that and say any other movie based on a book or short story.
Also, some years ago local morning drive time talk host on the Classic Rock station (big time lefty, hippie from the sixties) had some big singer from the 60's (might have been David Crosby) and they got talking about what type of music Crosby was listening to lately and he said a lot of religious music, hymns, chants, old timey Monk stuff, which got our local talk show host in a tizzy because he thought Crosby was an atheist. Crosby just explained he viewed it like any other music, it just tells a story regardless of the source.
See I am not what you would call religious at all, but I do enjoy some movies like Heston version of The Ten Commandments, the source of the story does not bother me, I mean what is the difference between that and say any other movie based on a book or short story.
Also, some years ago local morning drive time talk host on the Classic Rock station (big time lefty, hippie from the sixties) had some big singer from the 60's (might have been David Crosby) and they got talking about what type of music Crosby was listening to lately and he said a lot of religious music, hymns, chants, old timey Monk stuff, which got our local talk show host in a tizzy because he thought Crosby was an atheist. Crosby just explained he viewed it like any other music, it just tells a story regardless of the source.
Yes Sikhism does advocate violence, but ONLY as a last resort when all other alternative means have failed. Sikhism doesn't allow violence for the spreading of the Sikh religion or conquest, only for preservation of our rights to be Sikhs, and the rights of others.
This may end up a little long winded, so if you don't want to read it all I won't mind. But don't say I didn't explain myself:
During the time of the living Gurus, the Mughal empire ruled over India. Islam was considered the superior religion. Sikhism was initially a minor religion, however as the religion grew in influence and followers the Emperor at the time Jahangir took notice. Jahangir demanded that the Sikhs pay a fine to the government for tolerance, however the Sikhs rejected this on the notion that they had done nothing wrong by being Sikhs. Several requests were made, that gradually turned into threats eventually leading to the arrest warrant being made for the 5th Guru at the time. The Guru willingly turned himself in and was told to either accept Islam or face death as an example to his Sikhs of the consequences. The Guru said he would convert if Jahangir could offer him eternal life, which he could not, to which the Guru explained he will die one day anyway, so why compromise his beliefs? The Guru was brutally tortured and martyred.
The Sikhs and Hindus both realised that the Mughal Empire would not stop there, and this would prove true for the rest of Jahangir's reign, and actually became worse with the ascendance of Aurangzeb. The Hindus surrounding the Sikhs believed that their prayers would be answered by a deity who would come down to save them, however the Sikhs did not share this belief. Thus the 6th Guru formally militarised the Sikh community. Aurangzeb's persecution against the Sikhs was stunted, but continued against the Hindus. Eventually the 9th Guru offered his own life in exchange for the safety of the Hindus. The Emperor accepted this believing this would set an example to the rest. So the 9th Guru was executed, for Hinduism which wasn't even his own religion. His son would go on to become the 10th Guru. Realising the Empire would not rest until Sikhism, and Hinduism were exterminated, the Guru actively began preparing his Sikhs for battle. Every able Sikh was required to become proficient in martial arts, sword-fighting, swimming, archery and horse-riding. The Sikh resistance was a key factor in the crumbling of the Mughal Empire.
So as you can see, the Sikhism is not a pacifist religion, and believes in physical violence to preserve their religion, and to protect the oppressed. The Sikhs did everything they could to reason with the Mughals, but ultimately were left with no choice but to fend for themselves.
There have a been a few cases of Sikh extremist attacks related to Operation Bluestar in the 1980's. Despite this the overwhelming majority of Sikh violence can be attributed to a fight for freedom. Sikhs have fought for India in the wars against Pakistan, and also against the British. The Sikh community that eventually integrated into Britain had a representation in the World Wars for Britain, despite the way they were mistreated in India. Sikhs owe their allegiance to freedom and humanity, and will fight for it if necessary.
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Don't worry about it! He didn't expose anything, and hasn't discouraged me at all. I see that a there is a new thread for religious discussion and so I will move my attention there.
Most of the metal I listen to have religious or mythological themes without being religious music apart from some of the genuinely satanic black metal. I can appreciate the themes and stories even though I know the religions are bogus.
In the west the vast majority of the best creative minds in the CE have been inspired to some extent by Christianity. I can't imagine not admiring Michael Angelo, Beethoven, Tolstoy or even Van Morrison because of their beliefs. Until Darwin provided a credible alternative, most scientists and artists were religiously inspired.
I'm not religious at all but I read/consult the bible for its historical importance, poetry and wisdom. The rest I discard.
In some cases the Church had a demonstrably bad effect on art - all babies in paintings being Jesus (as a grown man) for a long while is probably the most disconcerting of those effects.
The same way I feel about films based on any sort of fiction really. Why would I care where a story comes from?
Plus, as you indicated, a lot of great music has religious influence too. The likes of Leonard Cohen are steeped in it. Plus religious imagery can be very effective anyway. It's dramatic stuff. If it makes an piece of art richer then it's all well and good.
Yeah, atheists reaction to religion is contemporary art is "is it any good?", and it's usually religious folk who react badly to it, whether it's something like Jerry Springer the Opera taking the piss, or Noah offering a true to the source depiction.
True, not to mention the images of Christ on the cross. Caravaggio is the alternative
What I mean by "take up the sword" is to engage in holy war... (Crusade/Jihad)
Do those faiths have a concept of divinely ordained warfare or have they had adherents who fought wars?
Can't speak for the other two, but Buddhism does have a concept of taking up arms against evil to protect the faith, which as you can see can be used as justification for oppression of other faiths or offensive wars.
You can even say most if not all mainstream religions have the same concept. Can't imagine any completely pacifist religion lasting and thriving.
Interesting. I'd never read that about Buddhism.
The second part fits in with something I've pondered for a long time.. If kings invented God and religion partly as a way to build a military force.
"And how can man die better than facing fearful odds, for the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his Gods?"
If I remember correctly, Buddhist monks took up arms against the Chinese in 1959 (?). There is TV footage of them with their rifles, although I'm supposing it wasn't staged.
This thread is going to be shit now that the mad religious folk have a place of sanctuary in a thread of their own. We should have some sort of crusade into the new thread to spread our message.
"The moment you claim a truth claim, you are violating determinism".
Sounds like a needlessly complicated rendition of God of the Gaps.
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The age of the safe space is upon us.
Got this message from a newb hopin to add to the discussion about Buddhism and violence...
I think he says "Has anyone ever provided proof of God's inexistence ?"
How could that be done ? Surely it's up to those who claim something is true or exists to prove it ? If they can't, then what can be affirmed without proof can be denied without proof, can't it ? Nobody has ever disproved gnomes either.
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Yes, SGPC is the bastion of selfless service. /s
I'd disagree. The defining feature of religion is to promote your opinion over others.
Humanity is the same.
Kindness is knowing what others need and realizing this and even animals have this. I don't think my dog or cat is a part of any religion yet my dog looks after my cat.
Humanity is the same.
Kindness is knowing what others need and realizing this and even animals have this. I don't think my dog or cat is a part of any religion yet my dog looks after my cat.
There are two sides to this. Hitchens et al argue that morality pre dates for example Christianity by pointing to the story of the good Samaritan who we know is not a Christian. Christians reply that God made this person that way regardless of whether or not he is a Christian.
But which God
The fact that any religion sites their own God like figure surely means that they are right.
I'm not sure if there is a God but if he is there. First off he's a cnut.
Second off he's a cnut.
Any all powerful being that lets children get born with deformites or be raped and tortured is a cnut.
I'm not sure if there is a God but if he is there. First off he's a cnut.
Second off he's a cnut.
Any all powerful being that lets children get born with deformites or be raped and tortured is a cnut.
I think the concept of 'god' was simply our way of explaining that we can't explain things and humans have that undying need to find an answer to everything to believe it.
Perhaps way back when, whoever was influential with knowledge simply suggested the concept as a way of putting people at peace with the thought that we cannot and will probably never be able to explain our reason for being, or even that we simply don't have one and we're here just because (which is sadly the most uncomfortable but realistic reason I think).
I haven't delved anywhere remotely deep enough into the history of organised religion or even just of our existence to know if there is evidence that suggests I'm right but I'm comfortable in it being a possible explanation.
Everything since, all the mythical things described in the Bible or other religious texts, all the wars fought in the name of religion, all of the extra stuff added in to appeal in a marketing way as a business that you buy into is simply that, cynical human marketing ploys.
Perhaps way back when, whoever was influential with knowledge simply suggested the concept as a way of putting people at peace with the thought that we cannot and will probably never be able to explain our reason for being, or even that we simply don't have one and we're here just because (which is sadly the most uncomfortable but realistic reason I think).
I haven't delved anywhere remotely deep enough into the history of organised religion or even just of our existence to know if there is evidence that suggests I'm right but I'm comfortable in it being a possible explanation.
Everything since, all the mythical things described in the Bible or other religious texts, all the wars fought in the name of religion, all of the extra stuff added in to appeal in a marketing way as a business that you buy into is simply that, cynical human marketing ploys.
This is what believing religious idiots gets you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment#Repercussions
I suppose supporters of other religions will just say that theirs was false, unlike mine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Disappointment#Repercussions
I suppose supporters of other religions will just say that theirs was false, unlike mine.
Well that's it in a nut shell. It's basically bullyin. My belief over yours. Your wrong so I'm going to kill you.
Unless you agree. Then bow to my fake god
Isn't that Russell's Teapot?
Maybe this has been posted before. I never knew this. I guess I must have unintentionally pissed off some muslims over the years.
I'm afraid I don't know.
Just googled it and it seems so. Imagine a court of law asking you to disprove your guilt where your case is that at the time of the crime you were asleep, alone at home in your bed. Or even disprove that you weren't in two places at the same tme !
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@McUnited - taking my question to you to this thread.
What evidence do you have to suggest that the story of Noah's Ark is real?
How did Noah, his sons and daughters manage to build such a colossal ship?
How did they manage to house all of the animals within it? How did they manage to feed them all. How did they manage to prevent them from killing each other lest one die and that whole species die out?
Did they have special conditions to house certain animals? For example heat lamps for the cold-blooded animals, etc. etc.
When did this flood apparently occur? The Bible suggests it occurred 4,000 years ago. So why did the Asian civilizations (that were around at the time) not notice the fact they were living underwater for a whole entire year?
I have many more questions if you wish to entertain them.
What evidence do you have to suggest that the story of Noah's Ark is real?
How did Noah, his sons and daughters manage to build such a colossal ship?
How did they manage to house all of the animals within it? How did they manage to feed them all. How did they manage to prevent them from killing each other lest one die and that whole species die out?
Did they have special conditions to house certain animals? For example heat lamps for the cold-blooded animals, etc. etc.
When did this flood apparently occur? The Bible suggests it occurred 4,000 years ago. So why did the Asian civilizations (that were around at the time) not notice the fact they were living underwater for a whole entire year?
I have many more questions if you wish to entertain them.
Thanks for all the questions.
Although I'd be happy to have a crack at answering them, I don't feel the force of the supposed implications you presumably attach to these questions. There are many things in the bible that seem equally far-fetched from our understanding of science and how the world works. How was there plant-growth before the sun was created? How does a snake speak? How do you turn a staff into a serpent? How did a man manage to survive inside a whale? How did the polar bears have enough time to make it to the ark? How do you alter the chemical composition of water into wine everywhere? How did Moses part the Red Sea? Why did God allow the creation of evil? Why did God create the world if he knew it was going to fall? Why does he need to feel loved?
You can repeat the above until you're blue in the face but it won't make any difference to most Christians. Why? Because, ultimately, I suspect most Christians don't base their faith in God because of any evidence for Noah's ark or the pillar of salt that Lot's wife was transformed into. In the grand scheme of things, these are trivial details that don't affect their understanding of the central proposition that God exists and revealed Himself through Jesus Christ.
Let's turn this question back on you. One day you'll die. That may be the end. But it may not be. You may find yourself having to answer to God. If the best you can muster in your defence for your non-belief is 'You didn't provide enough evidence for Noah's Ark and I simply couldn't figure out how on earth the lions didn't devour the other animals, or whether the ark was equipped with heat lamps', then might I suggest that you're going to have to do better than that?
I'd have more important things to ask if indeed one of the thousands of gods we as a species worship did exist, like how could they allow such attrocities to happen on a planet of their creation. Basically along the lines of what Mr Fry says here, he's more eloquent than me.
Sorry if i hijacked the thread for a min there
I think most non-believers would have plenty of questions other than whether or not there were heat lamps on Noah's Ark. Also, you can't pass those off as trivial when you believe they are literally true, despite the fact that the idea of Noah's Ark is spectacularly ridiculous.