Religion, what's the point?

[Stick]

Penned by man, inspired by God.

Aye but still essentially a construct of man? Yes?

 

[Winrar]

inspired by God.

So how do you know that?

And more importantly, what does it even mean?

 

[Raoul]

Penned by man, inspired by God.

Penned by man, inspired by innately human socio cultural depravity.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

Penned by man, inspired by innately human socio cultural depravity.

I know that's what you want to believe.

 

[Raoul]

I know that's what you want to believe.

Reality isn't discriminatory. It is what it is. Can you prove otherwise ?

 

[peterstorey]

Well, the logical extension would be that man-made evil has corrupted a good creation, and that forms its own argument for why there is "natural evil" although I have to admit that I initially thought you were including all evil, including that of man, by mentioning "natural evil", which is a mistake on my part. Purely out of deference to the fact you would include man in the natural in any other context?

Natural evil normally excludes man in the problem of evil. I did so because it focuses on the central logic problem and makes it more difficult to dissemble.

 

[Grinner]

Is heaven a place of nothing but good?

If so is it able to exist if evil isn't there to counter the good?

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Do you see the problem that you would have to be omniscient yourself to make the argument that such a God couldn't conceivably have good reasons for allowing evil and suffering to exist?

No, there is no problem because you do not need to be omniscient in order to understand the word all powerful. You understand that word and I understand that word; our difference is in accepting that there is a consequence within this debate to god being all powerful. It means god has no excuse for human suffering because god could stop it and indeed god needn't ever have created if he was as you believe he is, all powerful.


It means the god you worship does not exist.


That is why you can't accept the point.


There is no conceivable way an all powerful god would be unable to provide another way to achieve his objectives which didn't include suffering. So I don't have to know the mind of god nor do I need to concede a higher purpose (good reasons for allowing it) because if god is all powerful there can not be a good reason.


We have been around the argument before, but as long as you continue to state your claim I feel I should show why it is wrong and has been answered.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

Is heaven a place of nothing but good?

If so is it able to exist if evil isn't there to counter the good?

Heaven is a place without temptation and those who are in heaven are perfected in the love of Christ, having freely entered into it.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

No, there is no problem because you do not need to be omniscient in order to understand the word all powerful. You understand that word and I understand that word; our difference is in accepting that there is a consequence within this debate to god being all powerful. It means god has no excuse for human suffering because god could stop it and indeed god needn't ever have created if he was as you believe he is, all powerful.

It means the god you worship does not exist.


That is why you can't accept the point.


There is no conceivable way an all powerful god would be unable to provide another way to achieve his objectives which didn't include suffering. So I don't have to know the mind of god nor do I need to concede a higher purpose (good reasons for allowing it) because if god is all powerful there can not be a good reason.


We have been around the argument before, but as long as you continue to state your claim I feel I should show why it is wrong and has been answered.

You're just trapped in your own silly paradigm that what happens to man is more important than the glory of God. You are a humanist and think God has some responsibility to you, a rebel and enemy of God and you want him to do everything according to your humanist values. I am a Christian and put the honour and glory of God above the temporal well being of his enemies. God created because he deemed each of his children (which he knew from before the foundation of the world) worth it. Why should God value you more highly than me? He offers you the same redemption that he offers me, but you reject it. Why should your stubbornness take away my ability to repent and receive the salvation of my Lord?

There's a perfectly good reason for allowing evil and suffering and that reason is each member of Christ's bride, the Church, and more importantly, the glory God receives as a saviour.

 

[Raoul]

You're just trapped in your own silly paradigm

How can you be sure it isn't you who is trapped within your own paradigm ?

 

[Winrar]

You're just trapped in your own silly paradigm that what happens to man is more important than the glory of God. You are a humanist and think God has some responsibility to you, a rebel and enemy of God and you want him to do everything according to your humanist values. I am a Christian and put the honour and glory of God above the temporal well being of his enemies. God created because he deemed each of his children (which he knew from before the foundation of the world) worth it. Why should God value you more highly than me? He offers you the same redemption that he offers me, but you reject it. Why should your stubbornness take away my ability to repent and receive the salvation of my Lord?

There's a perfectly good reason for allowing evil and suffering and that reason is each member of Christ's bride, the Church, and more importantly, the glory God receives as a saviour.

glory of God? salvation of my Lord? what on earth do they even mean?

 

[Brwned]

Essentially, why is the Universe very big? To display the awesome power of God. God says he calls each star by name.

That's an incredibly dull answer to such a mysterious question but then I guess that's what religion's all about.

You are conceived in sin and sin from the time of your birth to the time of your death. Your time on earth is a mercy of God because God has the right to punish you for your wickedness the first time you sin.

And this is the sort of stuff that makes my skin crawl in mass. It's incredibly offensive to have to listen to this crap and I always find it really unfortunate that people are forced to listen to this at their family members' funerals.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

How can you be sure it isn't you who is trapped within your own paradigm ?

Because he doesn't listen to anything that's said. He just states that God's existence is logically incompatible with evil and refuses to consider reasonable objections to that argument. really, the "problem of evil" is a game atheists play and it's based on speculative rubbish. "God wouldn't do it this way, he'd do it some other way." It gets boring after a while.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

That's an incredibly dull answer to such a mysterious question but then I guess that's what religion's all about.


And this is the sort of stuff that makes my skin crawl in mass. It's incredibly offensive to have to listen to this crap and I always find it really unfortunate that people are forced to listen to this at their family members' funerals.

In mass?

You poor soul.

 

[Brwned]

I know, it's terribly unfortunate that I was brought into that form of Christianity. Who knows, if I was born into one of those other ones I'd probably be just as enlightened as you are now. I guess I'll be missing out on heaven all because of that too. Shame how these things work out. Whenever I'm reincarnated I hope God sticks me in the right religious environment next time.

 

[RexHamilton]

Heaven is a place without temptation and those who are in heaven are perfected in the love of Christ, having freely entered into it.

Prove it.

 

[Raoul]

Prove it.

Its in the Bible. That's all you need to know.

 

[Rykker_4united]

I feel like sharing my views on religion at this point in the conversation would be pointless. I agree, I think, with most of you in here and I'll leave it at that. Herman, may I suggest you discontinue the preachy 'God has divine right to punish you' and 'God created this and that' shtick in this thread. Arguing your extremist pro-religious view in this particular medium is probably not helping you convert people or deter them from following their common sense.

 

[Grinner]

Heaven is a place without temptation and those who are in heaven are perfected in the love of Christ, having freely entered into it.

What if they decide that they don't like it there?

 

[nimic]

There's a perfectly good reason for allowing evil and suffering and that reason is each member of Christ's bride, the Church, and more importantly, the glory God receives as a saviour.

This is an incredibly creepy post.

You're essentially saying God created suffering so that he could receive the glory of saving us from that suffering. God is one of those parents who hospitalizes their own children from a misguided desire to feel needed so they can take care of them.

 

[marukomu]

I've not been into many churches but I took the wife to York Minster when we lived in England. The whole place had a really sinister look with all these people creeping around and there was an atmosphere of fear and control.

 

[Wibble]

I now remember exactly why I realised that the concept of a God was ludicrous rubbish when in my early/mid teens.

 

[marukomu]

For me it was when I was 5. I got a call from Father Christmas and because it was a cheap recording (1970) I sussed out it was fake. My mother used to send me to Sunday school in Levenshulme and they would tell us all about god. I wanted to see him but they wouldn't show me and just said he was everywhere. I then joked that he was up my bum (after a lot of scandals this isn't far from the truth) and they sent me home.

 

[Stanzin Lama]

This is an incredibly creepy post.

You're essentially saying God created suffering so that he could receive the glory of saving us from that suffering. God is one of those parents who hospitalizes their own children from a misguided desire to feel needed so they can take care of them.

As per @Herman Van Rompuy , you can't judge God based on your humanist values, he is beyond your judgement. Why is God a man herman?

And I also take exception to what you said earlier when you said that God doesn't have to discriminate between his children and those who fall of their ways should be suitably punished. Why? Is that your judgement or God's? Either way, its an extremely selfish view. Based on what I understand from your comments, those who digress from God's path are ignorant people. Education and not punishment is the right path for ignorance, is it not?

You also haven't replied to my earlier post Herman. I am aware you are a bit busy in this thread but I would want to know your answer on my questions.

 

[Wibble]

For me it was when I was 5. I got a call from Father Christmas and because it was a cheap recording (1970) I sussed out it was fake. My mother used to send me to Sunday school in Levenshulme and they would tell us all about god. I wanted to see him but they wouldn't show me and just said he was everywhere. I then joked that he was up my bum (after a lot of scandals this isn't far from the truth) and they sent me home.

I think I suspected much earlier but the eternal damnation in the fires of hell thing put me off speculating. The Christian Brothers thrashing anyone who doubted with various nasty weaponry was another disincentive.

 

[quackattack]

Really, the issu is, as I see it, not the religions themselves.
What people find difficult is to practice in a good and peaceful way, and the issue with that is that many people is not very reflective about their religions, and perhaps evenr fewer (that hates religion) knows very much about the subject either.
You might say that religions has caused suffering and war for thousands of years, but the issue is not the religions themselves (as far as I know). People will and have always found causes to expand their borders and opress others no matter what situation they were/are in. I firmly believe that an atheist dictator is no worse than a religions dictator.

It isn't like my 90yr old grandmother, as religious as she is will ever, or has ever harmed anyone, so it has to do with other factors than religion itself, right? Because if it was the religions fault she sould be out there haunting witches and heretics, burning prostitutes and fortifying her home...No, it is the people behind these dreadful acts that is using the religions, which more often than not speaks of a more peaceful society that is the cause.

Extremists will always bend their tools to their will to promote their ideas and cause fear, but average religious people, as far as I've experianced, will at the very worst try to tell you something about their religion to perhaps make you want to hear more, and if you are not decent enaugh to tell them respectfully why you are not interested then extremism lives in those/you as well as hate often just breeds hate.

And by the way, I'm not a very religious person myself, but I have a lot of interest in learning about others believes to better understand the world we live in and most important, the people whom it means much to.
If people constantly quotes the "bad" things in the holy scriptures people will just be negative about everything. Try instead to look at all the positive things that the same books promote, about peace, respect, honor, forgivness, tolerance etc.

Religion, as with all other things is (to some) a tool that can be bent, we just have to bend it the right way.

 

[nimic]

Really, the issu is, as I see it, not the religions themselves.
What people find difficult is to practice in a good and peaceful way, and the issue with that is that many people is not very reflective about their religions, and perhaps evenr fewer (that hates religion) knows very much about the subject either.
You might say that religions has caused suffering and war for thousands of years, but the issue is not the religions themselves (as far as I know). People will and have always found causes to expand their borders and opress others no matter what situation they were/are in. I firmly believe that an atheist dictator is no worse than a religions dictator.

It isn't like my 90yr old grandmother, as religious as she is will ever, or has ever harmed anyone, so it has to do with other factors than religion itself, right? Because if it was the religions fault she sould be out there haunting witches and heretics, burning prostitutes and fortifying her home...No, it is the people behind these dreadful acts that is using the religions, which more often than not speaks of a more peaceful society that is the cause.

Extremists will always bend their tools to their will to promote their ideas and cause fear, but average religious people, as far as I've experianced, will at the very worst try to tell you something about their religion to perhaps make you want to hear more, and if you are not decent enaugh to tell them respectfully why you are not interested then extremism lives in those/you as well as hate often just breeds hate.

And by the way, I'm not a very religious person myself, but I have a lot of interest in learning about others believes to better understand the world we live in and most important, the people whom it means much to.
If people constantly quotes the "bad" things in the holy scriptures people will just be negative about everything. Try instead to look at all the positive things that the same books promote, about peace, respect, honor, forgivness, tolerance etc.

Religion, as with all other things is (to some) a tool that can be bent, we just have to bend it the right way.

See, that's an argument I hear a lot, and it's very nice and all, but I don't think it's completely true. You can't talk about "the religions themselves" as if they're completely separate things. The only way you could ever completely separate "the religions" from "the religious" is if you solely use the holy texts as the basis, and that has a couple of problems.

Firstly, the holy texts themselves didn't just show up in a vacuum. They are the way they are because of the cultures they appeared in, and the people who conceived it (or if you believe in that sort of thing, the people who received it). Secondly, these holy texts have quite a lot of very unsavoury elements to them that modern, moderate religion often disregards. This is as true for the Bible as it is for the Koran. For your argument to be true, or ever have been true, you would have to assume that you could point to a specific point in time where these religions were "pure", and where people acted the way we now think is good and just. And frankly, that isn't the case. As obvious and sometimes bad the effects of religion is in the world today, it doesn't compare to what the religious thought was good and just only a few hundred years ago.

 

[quackattack]

See, that's an argument I hear a lot, and it's very nice and all, but I don't think it's completely true. You can't talk about "the religions themselves" as if they're completely separate things. The only way you could ever completely separate "the religions" from "the religious" is if you solely use the holy texts as the basis, and that has a couple of problems.

Firstly, the holy texts themselves didn't just show up in a vacuum. They are the way they are because of the cultures they appeared in, and the people who conceived it (or if you believe in that sort of thing, the people who received it). Secondly, these holy texts have quite a lot of very unsavoury elements to them that modern, moderate religion often disregards. This is as true for the Bible as it is for the Koran. For your argument to be true, or ever have been true, you would have to assume that you could point to a specific point in time where these religions were "pure", and where people acted the way we now think is good and just. And frankly, that isn't the case. As obvious and sometimes bad the effects of religion is in the world today, it doesn't compare to what the religious thought was good and just only a few hundred years ago.

Of course, any wiritten, or spoken text is open for interpretation. And if one interperate something very negative it will become negative. The point about culture and time is very good and I know very much about religious texts does not apply in todays society (very much) and does clash with modern values etc. However, much of this, as far as I interperate is of less value than the very essence of, lets say christendom since I know most about this particular religion.
The essence is to of course be a christian, then be good to others as the other, but equally important "rule". All others are "bonus stuff" if you understand. So without having to type my fingers bleeding, the most important thing you can do as a religious person, in this case christian is to be nice to others and be a christian. If christians could do just this, then we would never ever have a problem, however, the human race has many different feelings towards different people, and some does not want to be nice to everyone, and when someone is not nice to you, you are not super interested in being nice back, and in worst case people are excluded from society and we have a vicious circle. I firmly believe that it is not in peoples interests to be rude towards others (as wide as that term can be), but we are and we find it difficult to either not commit atrocities or forgive those lesser "crimes" and wrongs that has harmed us or others. I'm not saying we should accept people killing or worse, but you see that if everyone would live by the rule to be nice towards eachothers then this would not be an issue at all. Like complex math, just with people...Jeez, I got a bit lost with all the different phrases and words here, but I hope you understand:P

 

[Waltraute]

You're just trapped in your own silly paradigm that what happens to man is more important than the glory of God. You are a humanist and think God has some responsibility to you, a rebel and enemy of God and you want him to do everything according to your humanist values. I am a Christian and put the honour and glory of God above the temporal well being of his enemies. God created because he deemed each of his children (which he knew from before the foundation of the world) worth it. Why should God value you more highly than me? He offers you the same redemption that he offers me, but you reject it. Why should your stubbornness take away my ability to repent and receive the salvation of my Lord?

There's a perfectly good reason for allowing evil and suffering and that reason is each member of Christ's bride, the Church, and more importantly, the glory God receives as a saviour.

[my bolding]
Your conception of God is utterly repugnant to me. If such a malign God existed, there is only one answer I'd give to his nauseating offer of redemption and salvation -- Non serviam.

 

[crappycraperson]

I now remember exactly why I realised that the concept of a God was ludicrous rubbish when in my early/mid teens.

Was thinking the same. I think Herman has done a stellar job of possibly turning people against religion even more.

 

[nimic]

I don't think I'm exaggerating at all when I say that with that kind of rhetoric, Herman Van Rompuy would fit right in with the Westboro Baptist Church fanatics.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

What if they decide that they don't like it there?

It's as equally bizarre a question as asking, but what if people enjoy it in hell? It isn't immediately obvious to someone who doesn't know the love of God and that's the persistent stumbling block in each of these discussions.

This is an incredibly creepy post.

You're essentially saying God created suffering so that he could receive the glory of saving us from that suffering. God is one of those parents who hospitalizes their own children from a misguided desire to feel needed so they can take care of them.

This is a misrepresentation of what I said. I said that God created a world in which perfection in love was possible (the free giving and receiving of love) which logically entails that something less than such perfection in love must also be possible. We call that sin. God exhibits both his endless love and forgiveness in such a world. You're still stuck in the mindset of blaming God for man's flaws. Humanist presuppositions shining through again.

As per @Herman Van Rompuy , you can't judge God based on your humanist values, he is beyond your judgement. Why is God a man herman?

And I also take exception to what you said earlier when you said that God doesn't have to discriminate between his children and those who fall of their ways should be suitably punished. Why? Is that your judgement or God's? Either way, its an extremely selfish view. Based on what I understand from your comments, those who digress from God's path are ignorant people. Education and not punishment is the right path for ignorance, is it not?

You also haven't replied to my earlier post Herman. I am aware you are a bit busy in this thread but I would want to know your answer on my questions.

Christ is fully God and fully man but being a man does not make him a humanist. He is the rightful recipient of all praise.

Not just ignorant people, Stanzin. People who willfully turn away from the light because they are evil, per John 3:19.

I didn't see your earlier post. Sorry.

Was thinking the same. I think Herman has done a stellar job of possibly turning people against religion even more.

I don't doubt it for a second. When the gospel is preached as it is then there are always a lot more revilers than sinners who are brought to repentance. I give the gospel for the sake of the few who will be saved, not for the favour of the many who won't (by their own choice).

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

I don't think I'm exaggerating at all when I say that with that kind of rhetoric, Herman Van Rompuy would fit right in with the Westboro Baptist Church fanatics.

I don't think you're familiar enough with either myself or the Westboro Baptist Church to understand the differences (as well as whatever superficial similarities you might perceive). I can safely tell you I'd do a much better job of discrediting the Westboro Baptist Church than the vast majority of their hecklers because I am actually a Christian. The Westboro Baptist Church preaches a false gospel and pray for people to die. Jesus died for his enemies, the least I can do is pray for them.

 

[Waltraute]

I give the gospel for the sake of the few who will be saved, not for the favour of the many who won't (by their own choice).

According to your own theology, you can't give anything. You're a sinful temporal being, created as such by God; intended from birth to be a rebel and an enemy, waffling away and plodding on as the rest of us.

Given your theological stance, we all need an epiphany. It's a theology rooted in the immediate experience of the numinous, which few people ever experience.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

According to your own theology, you can't give anything. You're a sinful temporal being, created as such by God; intended from birth to be a rebel and an enemy, waffling away and plodding on as the rest of us.

Given your theological stance, we all need an epiphany. It's a theology rooted in the immediate experience of the numinous, which few people ever experience.

That's not the full story, waltraute. In Christ we are clothed with his righteousness and indwelled by his Spirit. We are also ambassadors for Christ.

God uses his people and the spreading of the gospel for the salvation of the lost. Your views are similar to a hyper Calvinist. I am not even a Calvinist by strict definition, let alone a hyper Calvinist.

 

[RexHamilton]

Herman. Why did god create trillions of planets around billions upon billions of stars in billions of galaxies? Doesn't it seem like a bit of a waste, when it seems only one planet around one star in one galaxy is all that matters? In fact even the other stars in the Milky Way seem a bit wasteful.

Not a very green god is he...

 

[Eboue]

Religion aside, how can anyone say Jesus is fully god and fully man with a straight face? It's logically absurd.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

If it isn't religion, it will be race or skin color or wealth or class or geography or whatever. People will use anything that suits their needs for conflict.

 

[Waltraute]

That's not the full story, waltraute. In Christ we are clothed with his righteousness and indwelled by his Spirit. We are also ambassadors for Christ.

God uses his people and the spreading of the gospel for the salvation of the lost. Your views are similar to a hyper Calvinist. I am not even a Calvinist by strict definition, let alone a hyper Calvinist.

That wasn't my view, Herman, that was my in-a-nutshell interpretation of your theological stance as I saw it. From reading your posts I supposed you were a pretty strict Calvinist, yes.

Personally, I'm a lapsed Catholic, currently agnostic.