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I am wondering what would people accept as a prophecy. It would be good if we can define the terms and come up with a framework of what can reasonably be seen as one. For example I will start off with.

1) Does it claim to be a prophecy?

2) Is it contextualised in the future tense?

3) How accurate is/was it?

4) Was it fulfilled or did it fail?

5) is it yet to happen?

Anybody think of something else?
 
EyeInTheSky said:
I am wondering what would people accept as a prophecy. It would be good if we can define the terms and come up with a framework of what can reasonably be seen as one. For example I will start off with.

1) Does it claim to be a prophecy?

2) Is it contextualised in the future tense?

3) How accurate is/was it?

4) Was it fulfilled or did it fail?

5) is it yet to happen?

Anybody think of something else?
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Can it be proven to have happened ? For example, "God will manifest himself today in Trafalgar Square at 11 pm" is easier, "God will manifest himself today" is more general. What details are needed ? Who will see Him, only the chosen few or absolutely everyone, etc ?
 
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jackofalltrades said:
Can it be proven to have happened ? For example, "God will manifest himself today in Trafalgar Square at 11 pm" is easier, "God will manifest himself today" is more general. What details are needed ? Who will see Him, only the chosen few or absolutely everyone, etc ?
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Cool.

But I think expecting the minute of the day is a bit much.

If there are reasonable indicators like location, what will happen, who they are and how many of them, where they came from, where they will go and what will they will do then that is more than enough.

Something along those lines in addition to the original list above.
 
EyeInTheSky said:
Cool.

But I think expecting the minute of the day is a bit much.

If there are reasonable indicators like location, what will happen, who they are and how many of them, where they came from, where they will go and what will they will do then that is more than enough.

Something along those lines in addition to the original list above.
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Why ?

All those "they and them" - who are you referring to ?
 
EyeInTheSky said:
I am wondering what would people accept as a prophecy. It would be good if we can define the terms and come up with a framework of what can reasonably be seen as one. For example I will start off with.

1) Does it claim to be a prophecy?

2) Is it contextualised in the future tense?

3) How accurate is/was it?

4) Was it fulfilled or did it fail?

5) is it yet to happen?

Anybody think of something else?
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Is it from 2000+ years ago? (Judeo-Christian religions)

In all seriousness, the vast majority of Christians would look on a real life Jeremiah or Ezekiel as a loony if he's alive today, but as a prophet if he's alive 2000+ years ago
 
Carolina Red said:
Is it from 2000+ years ago? (Judeo-Christian religions)

In all seriousness, the vast majority of Christians would look on a real life Jeremiah or Ezekiel as a loony if he's alive today, but as a prophet if he's alive 2000+ years ago
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Do you think Jeremiah and Ezekiel were believed by everyone over 2000 years ago?

I simply don't know why we don't hear prophecies any longer or maybe we do but we've heard enough of them and have run out of patience waiting for the events (?) to arrive but the Treaty of Rome one does appear to moving along a bit.

Would we recognise a man of God and believe that God has spoken to him now anymore than the numbers who listened during Biblical times?
 
oates said:
Do you think Jeremiah and Ezekiel were believed by everyone over 2000 years ago?

I simply don't know why we don't hear prophecies any longer or maybe we do but we've heard enough of them and have run out of patience waiting for the events (?) to arrive but the Treaty of Rome one does appear to moving along a bit.

Would we recognise a man of God and believe that God has spoken to him now anymore than the numbers who listened during Biblical times?
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I wouldn't say everyone believed them, but they had enough believers that they had the ear of the king (according to the Bible).

I've always wondered if those people were legit, that there are present day prophets, but they are being ignored today and/or are treated for schizophrenia.
 
Carolina Red said:
Is it from 2000+ years ago? (Judeo-Christian religions)

In all seriousness, the vast majority of Christians would look on a real life Jeremiah or Ezekiel as a loony if he's alive today, but as a prophet if he's alive 2000+ years ago
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Ahh I see now. You are thinking along the lines that we are still waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled? or that there is no proof of them ever coming to fruition?
 
oates said:
Do you think Jeremiah and Ezekiel were believed by everyone over 2000 years ago?

I simply don't know why we don't hear prophecies any longer or maybe we do but we've heard enough of them and have run out of patience waiting for the events (?) to arrive but the Treaty of Rome one does appear to moving along a bit.

Would we recognise a man of God and believe that God has spoken to him now anymore than the numbers who listened during Biblical times?
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we kind of would if they performed miracles or at least it would help as opposed to or differentiate from some crack head telling you they were the second coming
 
EyeInTheSky said:
we kind of would if they performed miracles or at least it would help as opposed to or differentiate from some crack head telling you they were the second coming
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Nah, you'd get too many cynics dismissing it as smoke and mirrors or camera trickery.

Maybe God has given up speaking to us. Maybe he gave up trying?
 
oates said:
Nah, you'd get too many cynics dismissing it as smoke and mirrors or camera trickery.

Maybe God has given up speaking to us. Maybe he gave up trying?
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I understand your sentiment. But I don't think the creator/power has given up. Maybe were just not looking. we are all too distracted with Modern society, gadgets, TV etc etc.

Imagine you were around thousands of years ago. Breathing that unpolluted air, looking at the spectacular and awe-inspiring night sky without light pollution and with no modern day distractions or rat race.

So, in essence, the miracles are still there. No genuine person can not say that creation or the universe we observe is not a miracle. It is by any

I think there are too many people thinking that "God" is a magician here to entertain us with cheap parlour tricks. "please believe in me, look Kazam here's another Universe or solar system..."

I think God has done enough and if people don't see it now it is likely they will never see it...

Also to your point before I forget. I think you are spot on about it being dismissed. I often think on this subject that if God rearranged the stars to spell out "I am your lord belief in me" people would come up with all sorts of explanations about it being coincidence or saying that it could be how the "I" at the beginning is actually a 1, therefore, it makes no sense...

Imagine if God appeared in our atmosphere scientists would say "that's merely a trans-dimensional cluster of matter with high energy potential"

People think that explaining something negates its existence...
 
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EyeInTheSky said:
Ahh I see now. You are thinking along the lines that we are still waiting for prophecies to be fulfilled? or that there is no proof of them ever coming to fruition?
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Just hypothetically if Judeo-Christian prophesy has ever been real, then did it just stop? Or.. does it still go on and modern Christians ignore it because they think the prophet is actually a crazy person?
 
Carolina Red said:
Just hypothetically if Judeo-Christian prophesy has ever been real, then did it just stop? Or.. does it still go on and modern Christians ignore it because they think the prophet is actually a crazy person?
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I wonder whether it's the so many different splinters of christianity that it either isn't heard by all, is ignored by some, most or all when someone perhaps announces a prophesy from the Kingdom Faith group who some christians are suspicious of or is it just possible that Jesus already left over 400 odd prophesies that are already out there but we ignore them?
 
EyeInTheSky said:
I don't think you can be Christian and believe that the prophet is crazy? Are they not mutually exclusive positions?
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Not the prophets in the Bible, but what if there are prophets walking around right now and Christians don't identify them as prophets, but as crazy people.

To think of it another way, I'm convinced that if Isaiah were put in a time machine and brought to the modern day, Christians would think he was off his rocker instead of a "prophet of God" if nobody told them who he really was.
 
Carolina Red said:
Not the prophets in the Bible, but what if there are prophets walking around right now and Christians don't identify them as prophets, but as crazy people.

To think of it another way, I'm convinced that if Isaiah were put in a time machine and brought to the modern day, Christians would think he was off his rocker instead of a "prophet of God" if nobody told them who he really was.
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I don't think the everyone believed the prophets of the past. They actually were called crazy and madman and most persecuted by the people of the day. So really there is no difference. Some believed some did not.

Even now there are some far out cults and some people believe them.

By the way I am intrigued, there has been mention of Isaiah a few times (Not sure if it was just you or others).

Any reason you picked him. I know he is known for prophecies but just wondered if there were other reasons you mentioned him?
 
EyeInTheSky said:
I don't think the everyone believed the prophets of the past. They actually were called crazy and madman and most persecuted by the people of the day. So really there is no difference. Some believed some did not.

Even now there are some far out cults and some people believe them.

By the way I am intrigued, there has been mention of Isaiah a few times (Not sure if it was just you or others).

Any reason you picked him. I know he is known for prophecies but just wondered if there were other reasons you mentioned him?
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They were believed by the kings of Israel and Judah in their day if the Bible is correct. If people didn't believe them or thought them crazy, it was a minority. Also, their system of law accepted the existence of prophets and had the death penalty for false ones.

My point goes along with what @2cents posted in that link, modern Christians are demystified. I don't think they would think any of the ancient prophets were real if they were prophesying today, and that might be why, if prophesy ever were real, it "stopped" at some point between the time of the Bible and now. It didn't really "stop", people just started viewing the people doing the prophesying as crazy instead of in touch with God.

I chose Isaiah just because he's one of the most prominent prophets of the Old Testament, could have went with any of them really.
 
oates said:
I wonder whether it's the so many different splinters of christianity that it either isn't heard by all, is ignored by some, most or all when someone perhaps announces a prophesy from the Kingdom Faith group who some christians are suspicious of or is it just possible that Jesus already left over 400 odd prophesies that are already out there but we ignore them?
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Well, you think about the people wandering around on the street saying "the end is near" and how they're looked down upon by people today, Christians included.

The ancient prophets were doing just that, but they made it into the most read book in the world.
 
Carolina Red said:
Well, you think about the people wandering around on the street saying "the end is near" and how they're looked down upon by people today, Christians included.

The ancient prophets were doing just that, but they made it into the most read book in the world.
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I don't think it was quite like that! For Christians, Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies and so we aren't looking for new prophets. :)
 
Penna said:
I don't think it was quite like that! For Christians, Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies and so we aren't looking for new prophets. :)
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But the NT gives instructions for telling real prophets from false ones and says that there definitely will be prophets from that time until the "end of days".

And while he didn't wander streets, John the Baptist wandered the desert in a hair suit eating locusts and honey. That guy has been accepted as the harbinger of the Messiah by the largest religion in the world, but if he were suddenly put on the streets of a city today in a mostly Christian country, he would most likely end up in a mental ward.
 
Carolina Red said:
But the NT gives instructions for telling real prophets from false ones and says that there definitely will be prophets from that time until the "end of days".

And while he didn't wander streets, John the Baptist wandered the desert in a hair suit eating locusts and honey. That guy has been accepted as the harbinger of the Messiah by the largest religion in the world, but if he were suddenly put on the streets of a city today in a mostly Christian country, he would most likely end up in a mental ward.
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Jesus was warning against false prophets or teachers and said we'll know them by their fruits. For me, that's advice to the faithful to be on their guard all the time.

If John the Baptist was here today, he wouldn't be wearing animal skins! Maybe a tracksuit. :)
 
Penna said:
I don't think it was quite like that! For Christians, Jesus fulfilled the OT prophecies and so we aren't looking for new prophets. :)
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Yep, that's the Christian narrative. In respect to the Jews he didnt. Some are still waiting and some believe it has happened. There were other prophecies that were fulfilled or waiting to be fulfilled after Jesus according to the Jewish and Islamic narrative in any case.
 
Carolina Red said:
But the NT gives instructions for telling real prophets from false ones and says that there definitely will be prophets from that time until the "end of days".

And while he didn't wander streets, John the Baptist wandered the desert in a hair suit eating locusts and honey. That guy has been accepted as the harbinger of the Messiah by the largest religion in the world, but if he were suddenly put on the streets of a city today in a mostly Christian country, he would most likely end up in a mental ward.
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Yes, the major signs were false prophecy. Of course the ones that had some sort of tangible timeline and not the vague ones.
 
EyeInTheSky said:
Yes, the major signs were false prophecy. Of course the ones that had some sort of tangible timeline and not the vague ones.
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My point is that according to the NT there would always also be true prophets.

I just doubt modern Christianity would accept them as such.
 
Carolina Red said:
My point is that according to the NT there would always also be true prophets.

I just doubt modern Christianity would accept them as such.
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So either the NT is wrong about that also or as you are alluding to we are somehow missing them. The only thing is they will always come with great works and miracles according to the traditions so it would be hard to miss. Not cheap parlour tricks but things like raising the dead etc... lol
 
EyeInTheSky said:
So either the NT is wrong about that also or as you are alluding to we are somehow missing them. The only thing is they will always come with great works and miracles according to the traditions so it would be hard to miss. Not cheap parlour tricks but things like raising the dead etc... lol
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Again, something that can be attributed to the disenchantment theory put forward by Max Weber that 2cents linked to. The miracles of the ancient age have been replaced by scientific discovery.
 
Carolina Red said:
Again, something that can be attributed to the disenchantment theory put forward by Max Weber that 2cents linked to. The miracles of the ancient age have been replaced by scientific discovery.
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I don't think we can raise the dead or split the sea etc. And even if we eventually were able to do that in millions of years it would only confirm that people wearing robes and sandals thousands of years ago were real miracle workers.
 
Penna said:
Jesus was warning against false prophets or teachers and said we'll know them by their fruits. For me, that's advice to the faithful to be on their guard all the time.

If John the Baptist was here today, he wouldn't be wearing animal skins! Maybe a tracksuit. :)
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Yep, according to most parties that if someone gives a prophecy that in demonstrably wrong or did happen then that person is a false prophet.

for example if I said: "by the end of the day all the stars will physically fall from the sky" (Obviously we know the stars are not in "the sky" but that's how we see them) and the next day/night the stars were still there and the next day and a few weeks go by and yep they are still there that would be an embarrassingly false prophecy right?
 
EyeInTheSky said:
I don't think we can raise the dead or split the sea etc. And even if we eventually were able to do that in millions of years it would only confirm that people wearing robes and sandals thousands of years ago were real miracle workers.
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Depends on your definition (and the ancient meaning) of raising the dead and splitting the sea I would think.
 
Carolina Red said:
Depends on your definition (and the ancient meaning) of raising the dead and splitting the sea I would think.
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I don't think that is one of the things that can be interpreted in any other way. Raising the dead is if someone has died for whatever reason or been buried to be brought back to life hours, days or more after the time of death. I also don't think that Splitting the sea can be seen in any other way and to do so would be reaching too far to try and rationalise it.

Either these things did not happen and they were made up or they did happen. There is far too much condescending rhetoric where we think of people back then as brainless cattle so that we can rationalise what we don't know or did not witness. We think that they could not comprehend the difference between the sea parting and a ripple in the water or someone being buried and coming back to life and someone waking from a coma.

There are some who then say that these things are "parables" but then we are left with the issue of what do we read as parables and what do we read as literal. Why is it not clear?
 
EyeInTheSky said:
I don't think that is one of the things that can be interpreted in any other way. Raising the dead is if someone has died for whatever reason or been buried to be brought back to life hours, days or more after the time of death. I also don't think that Splitting the sea can be seen in any other way and to do so would be reaching too far to try and rationalise it.

Either these things did not happen and they were made up or they did happen. There is far too much condescending rhetoric where we think of people back then as brainless cattle so that we can rationalise what we don't know or did not witness. We think that they could not comprehend the difference between the sea parting and a ripple in the water or someone being buried and coming back to life and someone waking from a coma.

There are some who then say that these things are "parables" but then we are left with the issue of what do we read as parables and what do we read as literal. Why is it not clear?
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This is all fine but a lot of us don't take everything so literally. They didn't have terribly medically qualified personnel for example although I have always believed that dead meant dead.
 
oates said:
This is all fine but a lot of us don't take everything so literally. They didn't have terribly medically qualified personnel for example although I have always believed that dead meant dead.
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I agree.That's exactly my point. How do you know when or what to take everything "so literally". It complicates things even further if you take things "partially literal" and not "so literally".

I think if someone was dead for a number of days and buried then the chances are if they pop back to life again is a miracle (if we are to believe it actually happened which is a different discussion). The same thing goes for parting the red seas. If they say it opened up (parted very high at both sides) so they could walk through it on the bedrock to the other side then collapsed on the pursuing party is yet another event that can only be considered as literal. Not because I said so but because it is mentioned elsewhere as a literal event and would whole chapters would make no sense if it was allegorical. The biblical scholarship and common sense also dictates this. No one not even the most far fetched theist could try and class this as a parable or analogy.
 
iluvurmummy said:
Because language has evolved and we express our thoughts and convey ideas a lot more precisely (or less vaguely.)

The connotations of terms and languages would also have been different.
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oates said:
This is all fine but a lot of us don't take everything so literally. They didn't have terribly medically qualified personnel for example although I have always believed that dead meant dead.
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These things touch on why I have questions about things like prophesy and miracles. Noah's flood covered "the Earth", but how big was that? The guy was "dead", but what's that mean? Could he have been in a coma?

Declarations of death used to be so unreliable that people in the 18th and 19th century invented "safety coffins" so that if they woke up in the grave they could let the night watch in the cemetery know to dig them up.
 
Carolina Red said:
These things touch on why I have questions about things like prophesy and miracles.

1) Noah's flood covered "the Earth", but how big was that?



2) The guy was "dead", but what's that mean? Could he have been in a coma?



Declarations of death used to be so unreliable that people in the 18th and 19th century invented "safety coffins" so that if they woke up in the grave they could let the night watch in the cemetery know to dig them up.
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1) OT and NT say it what the entire world:

  • Gen 7:11-12 . . . on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

NT:

And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. and I will destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.

The flood covered the entire world. After a period of 150 days, the Ark rested on Mt. Ararat (17,000 ft.) 200 miles North of the ancient city of Nineveh.

All the Mountains Were Covered. There are vast open spaces between the mountains in the region. Nowhere on earth is there a set of mountains that create a perfect circle to somehow keep water in like a fish bowl. According to the bible the tops of all the high mountains under the entire heavens were at least 20 feet beneath the water's surface (Genesis 7:19-20). It would be absurd to think that a flood covering the highest mountains of the Middle East would not affect the rest of the world. Also, the waters remained at this gigantic, mountain-covering height for five months! (Genesis 7:18-24, 8:1-5).


2) no because someone who is buried underground for a period more than a few minutes does not come back to life as they could not be without oxygen for more than a few minutes. Even the world record for professional "breath holders" is 20 minutes if we are to believe that. whether they were in a coma or beheaded they would not come back to life.

So if we look at the context and other related verses the answers are clear. So these 2 questions are answered for you now I think?
 
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