Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
- Thread starter Annihilate Now!
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I honestly waffle between ‘Christ, another graph in football’ (not specifically you, just in general) & ‘it’s fecking interesting breaking it down to the granular level.’I wish.
Can’t wait to see the VAR decision graph. It’s only a matter of time.
VAR is a man watching a screen. I feel this needs saying as sometimes with words like 'technology' thrown around I think people fall into the trap of believing it's some artificially intelligent, high-spec, Matrix-like piece of apparatus that would thrive if not for these middle-aged, balding, podgy incompetent referees.
The middle-aged, balding, podgy incompetent referee IS the 'technology'.
If you think a middle-aged, balding, podgy incompetent ref squinting at a screen for three or four minutes at the time is an improvement to the game, then God love you. Because if you're a proponent of VAR that's essentially what you think.
The middle-aged, balding, podgy incompetent referee IS the 'technology'.
If you think a middle-aged, balding, podgy incompetent ref squinting at a screen for three or four minutes at the time is an improvement to the game, then God love you. Because if you're a proponent of VAR that's essentially what you think.
xGVAR
I can't fully understand how Mike Riley is still in charge of this shit show.
And if it wasn't for the fact that i still somewhat enjoy football, i'd find the staggering incompetence at display piss funny
First season of VAR and they barely use the touchline monitor because VAR isn't supposed to ruin the flow of the game, takes too long etc, yet they can easily spend 4-5 mins checking if someones left pubic hair is an inch offside or not. Mint.
Alexis Sanchez scores a bizaarre volleyball goal against Hull that isn't chalked off because of a gap in the rules, so they modify the rules to the point that it's so stupid that you actually wonder if the people responsible are mentally ill. A new rule, where any goal after the ball has touched an attacking players arm is chalked off as handball. Lucas Moura is fouled from behind, as he falls over the opposition player clears the ball into his arm and it rolls to Kane who scores, handball and Sheffield gets the freekick. There was one even worse, where a player is fouled and 10 rounds of slow motion identifies that the tips of his fingers touch the ball when he's falling over and the goal isn't given. You can't really make it up...
Then, in an attempt to correct the issue, they make it worse.
But it is not a handball offence if after an accidental handball the ball travels some distance via a pass or a dribble, or there are several passes before the goal or goalscoring opportunity.
As long as you don't instantly score from a handball situation, just take advantage and pass it, it won't be an offence. Christ.
Newcastle's disallowed goal against Liverpool, goal is disallowed for handball because it bounces off the goalkeeper and into his arm that is alongside his body. It's absolutely mental that someone actually thought this was a good solution.
There's so many flaws, so many daft binary interpretations, that the existence of VAR should easily be able to fix. Mental super slowmotion to see what happens in situations that occurs in less than half a second. Some of the worst decisions ever made are after the introduction of VAR, it's bizarre.
And if it wasn't for the fact that i still somewhat enjoy football, i'd find the staggering incompetence at display piss funny
First season of VAR and they barely use the touchline monitor because VAR isn't supposed to ruin the flow of the game, takes too long etc, yet they can easily spend 4-5 mins checking if someones left pubic hair is an inch offside or not. Mint.
Alexis Sanchez scores a bizaarre volleyball goal against Hull that isn't chalked off because of a gap in the rules, so they modify the rules to the point that it's so stupid that you actually wonder if the people responsible are mentally ill. A new rule, where any goal after the ball has touched an attacking players arm is chalked off as handball. Lucas Moura is fouled from behind, as he falls over the opposition player clears the ball into his arm and it rolls to Kane who scores, handball and Sheffield gets the freekick. There was one even worse, where a player is fouled and 10 rounds of slow motion identifies that the tips of his fingers touch the ball when he's falling over and the goal isn't given. You can't really make it up...
Then, in an attempt to correct the issue, they make it worse.
But it is not a handball offence if after an accidental handball the ball travels some distance via a pass or a dribble, or there are several passes before the goal or goalscoring opportunity.
As long as you don't instantly score from a handball situation, just take advantage and pass it, it won't be an offence. Christ.
Newcastle's disallowed goal against Liverpool, goal is disallowed for handball because it bounces off the goalkeeper and into his arm that is alongside his body. It's absolutely mental that someone actually thought this was a good solution.
There's so many flaws, so many daft binary interpretations, that the existence of VAR should easily be able to fix. Mental super slowmotion to see what happens in situations that occurs in less than half a second. Some of the worst decisions ever made are after the introduction of VAR, it's bizarre.
Proper ref, and City would be down to 10.
So KDB isnt sent off? Wasnt that reckless?
Whole thing is ridculous
Whole thing is ridculous
That's the issue. If that West ham one is a red, that should be to.
Balbuena's red correctly overturned. Holding breath for referee to admit error.
The problem with var as someone at work said today correctly in my opinion is that they keep looking for reasons to disallow goals, and if you look long enough you will always find one. It should be that they try to find any reason to let a goal stand. That mentality change alone would help with var.
It's like Moyes at West ham wanting a throw in from Henderson's kick - if you look far enough back there's always a """"contentious""" call. Even if there was a foul / play on like with Pogba Vs Granada the other week which causes the initial var check or whatever!
The noticeable difference in uefa competition has been the desire to let goals stand. That's the way forward.
It's like Moyes at West ham wanting a throw in from Henderson's kick - if you look far enough back there's always a """"contentious""" call. Even if there was a foul / play on like with Pogba Vs Granada the other week which causes the initial var check or whatever!
The noticeable difference in uefa competition has been the desire to let goals stand. That's the way forward.
VAR needs its own VAR
The sooner the line-drawing goes the better.
Pogba's yellow last night was the softest I've seen in a long time.
How easily refs fall for players holding their face infuriates me. The replay showed Pogba's brushing the keeper's shoulder but he went down holding his face.
How easily refs fall for players holding their face infuriates me. The replay showed Pogba's brushing the keeper's shoulder but he went down holding his face.
Even if they were just allowed to only draw one line and make a decision from that, it would be much better.
Can anyone give any rational reason why the ref didn’t even get asked to have a look at Sterling planting his studs, full force, above Werner’s ankle?!
It’s Man City going for the league and Sterling is an English darling. Too controversial.
England squad players will always get a 20% bonus leniency in those decisions.
It was a clear red. His stud were up the entire time.
It was a clear red. His stud were up the entire time.
One of the worst decisions of the season.
It's an absolutely blatant red card.
It's an absolutely blatant red card.
after Watkins got sent off today for 'simulation', I would hope that more players get booked for this simulation otherwise the officiating standard is just going to be frustratingly inconsistent
I feel a bit sorry for Watkins. He's expected to get cleaned out by Henderson and let himself go limp in anticipation. It's definitely not a penalty but i don't think it's a dive either, it's not like he's screaming to claim one. I'd sooner see the referee let those go.
He dived, he knew what he was doing, anticipated the contact and was falling down even before Henderson actually got close to him.
Glad to see ref's punish that sort of cheating.
I’m sure it’s been asked before, but I don’t understand why the referee on the pitch isn’t allowed to ask to see the monitor if he’s already stopped the game. It can still be used to pick up things the ref has completely missed, but in Sterling’s case, the ref must have been debating in his mind whether to give a yellow or red.
I understand VAR keeps the game going in situations like the handball against Greenwood (I think) yesterday. But if the ref has stopped the game, surely it takes away the stupid argument that he is influenced as soon as he is asked to go to the screen.
Yeah, agreed. That was how I saw it too. He must have thought he was going to get absolutely clattered. One of those rare occasions when you can justifiably excuse diving on the basis of self preservation.
Did they change the handball rule again? I know all the joke ones right at the start of the season when players weren't even looking and balls were being smashed at their hands and they were being given so that was rightfully amended but yesterday we head it back into penalty area and Greenwood's hand is by his head so really he knows what he's doing....don't understand why ref didn't go and look at it on his monitor.
Before you all pile in it was a clear penalty on Pogba so no idea why Dean Smith was highlighting that post match and Ollie went down far too easily.
We got this called v us just 3 months back:
Before you all pile in it was a clear penalty on Pogba so no idea why Dean Smith was highlighting that post match and Ollie went down far too easily.
We got this called v us just 3 months back:
He doesnt even dive to get out of the way, he throws his body as if there was contact.
Nobody does that when theyre not in the box. If they did, players would never be off the ground
I asked the question during the matchday thread, but I think it's a valid question-
If the Greenwood handball or Henderson tackle had been given by the ref, would they have been reversed after VAR?
Obviously it's a hypothetical, but I don't think they'd have been reversed, and that's where the flaws of VAR and its implementation are highlighted for me.
If the Greenwood handball or Henderson tackle had been given by the ref, would they have been reversed after VAR?
Obviously it's a hypothetical, but I don't think they'd have been reversed, and that's where the flaws of VAR and its implementation are highlighted for me.
Did they change the handball rule again? I know all the joke ones right at the start of the season when players weren't even looking and balls were being smashed at their hands and they were being given so that was rightfully amended but yesterday we head it back into penalty area and Greenwood's hand is by his head so really he knows what he's doing....don't understand why ref didn't go and look at it on his monitor.
Before you all pile in it was a clear penalty on Pogba so no idea why Dean Smith was highlighting that post match and Ollie went down far too easily.
We got this called v us just 3 months back:
Who knows to be honest... I think it changed to allow more leeway to arms "being in natural position" but then there was also something about "arms being above shoulders is unnatural" ... and then there's also distance to the ball (which is sometimes taken into consideration, and sometimes isn't).
Honestly I was a bit surprised it wasn't a penalty, or looked at by the ref... not that I want that sort of thing to be a penalty, but seen plenty of those given. (then again others haven't been given, like the one Hudson Odoi did against us at Stamford Bridge).
The big difference between the two is Greenwood was jumping and so his arms were in a natural position. That isn’t the case with the one given against City. It doesn’t make it any less arbitrary. You wouldn’t be surprised to see something similar given next time it happens.Did they change the handball rule again? I know all the joke ones right at the start of the season when players weren't even looking and balls were being smashed at their hands and they were being given so that was rightfully amended but yesterday we head it back into penalty area and Greenwood's hand is by his head so really he knows what he's doing....don't understand why ref didn't go and look at it on his monitor.
Before you all pile in it was a clear penalty on Pogba so no idea why Dean Smith was highlighting that post match and Ollie went down far too easily.
We got this called v us just 3 months back:
The Greenwood handball was a penalty. We were extremely lucky to get away with it.
I would feel more sorry for him were it not for the fact he went to Henderson to ask him to stick up for him and didn’t immediately look to the ref for a penalty.
Watkins decision infuriates me.
1) Gets the ball first
2) Henderson clips him on the leg/knee
3) He's potentially getting clattered at full pace
I agree that Watkins was looking for the penalty in advance, because he's about to be unfairly impeded. He has possession of the ball and if he doesn't go down he risks injury and/or doesn't get the deserved penalty.
Either way, the ref should be 100% sure that the player is trying to cheat before booking them. But there's some irrational hatred of 'divers'.
If you're in doubt about the contact watch (slowly) how the direction of Henderson's foot changes in the replay at 11 seconds
1) Gets the ball first
2) Henderson clips him on the leg/knee
3) He's potentially getting clattered at full pace
I agree that Watkins was looking for the penalty in advance, because he's about to be unfairly impeded. He has possession of the ball and if he doesn't go down he risks injury and/or doesn't get the deserved penalty.
Either way, the ref should be 100% sure that the player is trying to cheat before booking them. But there's some irrational hatred of 'divers'.
If you're in doubt about the contact watch (slowly) how the direction of Henderson's foot changes in the replay at 11 seconds
Second yellow.
I do think generally players go down far too easily these days and look for contact so much (have a look at the penalty Kane "won" v us the other week) and Barkley and Grealish also won penalties for us in that manner this season so generally I'd prefer to see more players booked....but I just know this will be only instance of it for rest of the season.
Only other one in recent times I can think was Victor Moses in the cup final v Arsenal when he dived in the box and that was 4 years ago now.
Agree with the sentiments on the Watkins red card.
Not enough for a penalty, but is obviously trying to avoid a clattering. Sensible refereeing decision is no penalty, no booking.
Not enough for a penalty, but is obviously trying to avoid a clattering. Sensible refereeing decision is no penalty, no booking.
Did it not take a nick of something first? Like maguire on Thursday against roma I thought that close contact double contact rule meant it was no longer a pen?
Agreed.
I mean it seems more of a penalty than not, in my opinion. Really soft if it was given, would completely understand it if it wasn't, but it seems bizarre to book him in that situation and as a result having to send him off.
Players are almost programmed, partly by the referees themselves, into going down the minute they feel contact. Gabriel Jesus did it this weekend and got rewarded for it. We have seen many examples of players not going down after being genuinely fouled and then not getting the foul. We have pundits calling for penalties because 'there was contact', regardless of how miniscule that contact is.
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I have no problem with players going down when they either a) expect contact or b) trying to avoid contact - both are ways to protect yourself.
Dives to me are when you fling yourself to the ground after either minimal or no contact, or if you instigate the contact yourself.
Dives to me are when you fling yourself to the ground after either minimal or no contact, or if you instigate the contact yourself.