Yeah, I think so. It’s exposed that refs are sometimes out of sync with how players almost unanimously view incidents.
Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
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Fecking hell what a joke VAR is.
Brighton scores like this:
1: A Brighton man heads the ball BACKWARDS by mistake effectively making an assist for a goal (always a no-offside, right?)
2: A Brighton man who is in front of the guy who heads the ball runs back and picks up the ball to shoot and score (Had he passed forwards he'd been offside, but that's not the case)
3: VAR calls it offside and cancels the goal in under 20 seconds.
Brighton scores like this:
1: A Brighton man heads the ball BACKWARDS by mistake effectively making an assist for a goal (always a no-offside, right?)
2: A Brighton man who is in front of the guy who heads the ball runs back and picks up the ball to shoot and score (Had he passed forwards he'd been offside, but that's not the case)
3: VAR calls it offside and cancels the goal in under 20 seconds.
Passing the ball forwards /backwards doesn't matter... Its whether you're ahead of the ball or not.
West Ham sending off is an absolutely textbook example of VAR feckery. In real time you can clearly see it’s an unavoidable accident. Watch it in slow motion enough times and it’s easy for a referee to fool himself into thinking that, despite kicking the ball as hard as he can, it’s possible for the defender to somehow halt the follow through mid-swing. This bullshit is ruining the game.
Hmm, maybe I got it wrong then
Still this thread could need a bump after the weekly feckups thoughThese type of situations is where VAR will always fault if human intuition in the VAR room is not allowed. Same type with the Son eye pop-incident. You need human intuition, to understand the context of why a move is done and the overall context of the situation. If you just go straight binary on whether a hand has hit a head for instance, yes Son's a red.
On the other hand, if you allow human intuition to be used, it can also be bring much variance in decisions, as every human is different and every referee has a different "line" of what is allowed.
In short: If you do one thing, it'll lead to errors - If you do the other, it might lead to errors too.
It’s not unavoidable at all. If Chilwell doesn’t arrive late and runs into the west ham player the situation never happens. The entire situation is caused by Chilwell arriving late and putting himself in front of the foot. I’d class that in the same category as lowering your head, ie putting yourself in danger which is an offence against yourself and not against the opponent.
This bonkers decision means that players can routinely enter situations late and get their opponents sent off if they manage to get hit by their studs as they’re shooting the ball.
It reminds me of the Nani incident v real. Nani jumps to control the ball and out of nowhere he gets blindsided by a player running into his studs, while he himself is only trying to play a bit of football.
It’s unavoidable from the perspective of the player getting sent off. I can only assume the referee thought the follow through was malicious. Which is obviously stupid but watching repeated super slo mo replays (i.e. what VAR makes them do) can be deceptive.
It works ok in rugby because it’s usually used for black and white stuff, where real time opinions don’t matter. Was there a foot in touch? Did the ball get touched down? Likewise in cricket or tennis where the main priority is working out where the ball is.
VAR never made sense in football so, surprise surprise, it’s churning out stupid decisions every week. As infuriating as it was predictable.
It’s unavoidable from the perspective of the player getting sent off. I can only assume the referee thought the follow through was malicious. Which is obviously stupid but watching repeated super slo mo replays (i.e. what VAR makes them do) can be deceptive.
It works ok in rugby because it’s usually used for black and white stuff, where real time opinions don’t matter. Was there a foot in touch? Did the ball get touched down? Likewise in cricket or tennis where the main priority is working out where the ball is.
VAR never made sense in football so, surprise surprise, it’s churning out stupid decisions every week. As infuriating as it was predictable
VAR was supposed to get rid of awful referee decisions..
What the hell happened with that plan? There are awful decisions in nearly every game.
It's literally the complete opposite of what it was supposed to be
What the hell happened with that plan? There are awful decisions in nearly every game.
It's literally the complete opposite of what it was supposed to be
Was thinking this myself, they should watch the incident at normal speed a couple of times first and check it slower if they need to. At normal speed, today's was a completely accidental collision. No malice, no foul.
Same ref who disallowed Cavani's goal. Guy looks well out of his depth tbf.
They should give the second one a retrospective red and thank that West Ham fan for bringing it to their attention., just for the chuckles.
In rugby when they’re looking at stuff which isn’t black and white like I described above they make a big deal of looking at real time replays. They also give the decision made in the moment a lot of weight when working out the final call. I still think it will always be shite in football but they could easily make it a lot less shite.
Makes sense. Slow mo is only really needed for offsides and maybe penalties. If they're looking at fouls, especially outside the box, the emphasis should always be on real time, as it's the only context that doesn't totally warp the incident.
Honestly, I'm just bored with VAR and reffing being such a big talking point during every game. They've massively over complicated things and are patently wracked with uncertainty over every call. It's a mess.
I agree with you, of course. I was just trying to make a point about Chilwell being the instigator of the entire situation with his late attempt at a challenge, and not the poor guy getting his marching orders for having someone run into him as he’s doing a very natural thing during a football game, ie kicking the ball.
I seriously think VAR is letting the referees and law makers off to be honest. We never blame the refs anymore - just this mythical thing called VAR. Michael Oliver watched that for 2 minutes and decided the referee on the pitch should review it - he wouldn’t have just been looking at slow motion. What the feck was he thinking? The handball today for Newcastle is a rule issue not a VAR issue. It’s also about to get even more ludicrous - because from next year if Wilson handles it then taps it in it’s disallowed - if he passes the ball to another team mate to tap in it won’t be. Think about how insane that is...
For tight offsides we need to go to the foot - hopefully this Wenger rule will improve that.
For tight offsides we need to go to the foot - hopefully this Wenger rule will improve that.
SERIOUS FOUL PLAY
A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.
Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.
Pretty fecking bonkers that someone can look at the replay of the West Ham situation and go "yup, that clearly ticks off all the boxes, red card". There's no movement towards Chillwell, it's one motion in less than half a second where he follow through with the leg when clearing the ball
A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.
Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.
Pretty fecking bonkers that someone can look at the replay of the West Ham situation and go "yup, that clearly ticks off all the boxes, red card". There's no movement towards Chillwell, it's one motion in less than half a second where he follow through with the leg when clearing the ball
I think Balbuena leans back to try and avoid colliding with Chillwell as he does his standing foot gives way and he almost ends up sliding Into Chillwell studs showing on his follow through.
It's an unfortunate coming together, the sort of thing that happens week in week out on football pitches all over the world, it's never been a foul and it certainly isnt cardable. And perhaps more interestingly it isnt a clear and obvious error in the first place.
How the VAR and then the ref have decided that it is a red card offence is beyond me. All VAR has done is show how utterly incompetent and how out of touch with the game the refs are. By the letter of the law I would even give as far to say that its chillwell who commits an offence with a somewhat late possibly reckless tackle.
It's an unfortunate coming together, the sort of thing that happens week in week out on football pitches all over the world, it's never been a foul and it certainly isnt cardable. And perhaps more interestingly it isnt a clear and obvious error in the first place.
How the VAR and then the ref have decided that it is a red card offence is beyond me. All VAR has done is show how utterly incompetent and how out of touch with the game the refs are. By the letter of the law I would even give as far to say that its chillwell who commits an offence with a somewhat late possibly reckless tackle.
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Awful call for the red card.
I know a lot of people are complaining about the ref viewing it in slow-mo but even in slow-mo most of us thought it wasn't a red.
The bigger issues are the ones we've seen ever since VAR was introduced to the PL. Namely the erratic "clear and obvious" threshold they've never really got to grips with and their use (or lack of use, or sort-of-use-but-not-really) of the pitchside monitors. In this case it meant it was referred by VAR when it shouldn't have been and once the ref went to look at it he was very unlikely to stick to his original decision.
Obviously it's subjective, so there will always be grey areas and decisions we disagree with. But as many of know from our own jobs, it's not that hard to put good protocols and training into place to ensure a good standard of subjective decision making. It's not like the decisions they're dealing with here are complex beyond comprehension. In this case though it all seems to be a mess.
I would imagine it has left the refs both very confused and very afraid of making a mistake, which isn't a state of mind that will lead to good calls.
I know a lot of people are complaining about the ref viewing it in slow-mo but even in slow-mo most of us thought it wasn't a red.
The bigger issues are the ones we've seen ever since VAR was introduced to the PL. Namely the erratic "clear and obvious" threshold they've never really got to grips with and their use (or lack of use, or sort-of-use-but-not-really) of the pitchside monitors. In this case it meant it was referred by VAR when it shouldn't have been and once the ref went to look at it he was very unlikely to stick to his original decision.
Obviously it's subjective, so there will always be grey areas and decisions we disagree with. But as many of know from our own jobs, it's not that hard to put good protocols and training into place to ensure a good standard of subjective decision making. It's not like the decisions they're dealing with here are complex beyond comprehension. In this case though it all seems to be a mess.
I would imagine it has left the refs both very confused and very afraid of making a mistake, which isn't a state of mind that will lead to good calls.
I certainly agree that Valbuena didn't foul Mount at all today.
It needs to go. It's gone to a stage now I'd rather lose a game with an close offside call then win with it.
Absolute shambles
Absolute shambles
Got me before my hasty edit, well played.
It's Balbuena as well. Valbuena is that short-arse who plays for Olympiakos.
Wow. Just seen that red card on MOTD as I didn't see the game earlier. That's a shocking decision. You watch it in real-time and it's so clear that momentum took him through and it was perfectly natural. No deviation, no intent - nothing. Was just unfortunate that he made contact with the Chelsea player. It's a sporting incident and nothing more.
I also hate these slow-motion replays. Not so much in this one (although the use of it here was still bad), but the number of times they use slow-mo just for the actual contact and ignore the context of the few seconds that came before. It's basically a loop of the actual contact which ALWAYS makes it look terrible if you stare at it enough times.
As for anyone saying it is red, they're clearly just seeking attention and being deliberately contrarian and making a show of it.
I also hate these slow-motion replays. Not so much in this one (although the use of it here was still bad), but the number of times they use slow-mo just for the actual contact and ignore the context of the few seconds that came before. It's basically a loop of the actual contact which ALWAYS makes it look terrible if you stare at it enough times.
As for anyone saying it is red, they're clearly just seeking attention and being deliberately contrarian and making a show of it.
Yes I remember him being the next zidane or something when he was emerging at Marseille, never quite worked out for him.
More to the point I think I'm gonna retire for evening had a nightmare in that post.
Well done lads, great refereeing all round once again. Should be proud of a days work done right.
Balbuena, deliberately on the follow through leaves the studs up and smashes them into Mount's leg. Ref and VAR got it spot on.
What a bunch of absolute clowns, no common sense left in the game at all. .
Balbuena, deliberately on the follow through leaves the studs up and smashes them into Mount's leg. Ref and VAR got it spot on.
What a bunch of absolute clowns, no common sense left in the game at all. .
TO be honest, I thought the West Ham player was also called "Valbuena" until he got sent off tonight. It just made me chuckle that you got both players wrong as it's something I would do!
The most awful thing about it was that it was reviewed by VAR and by the onfield ref and they both saw an issue where it simply didn't exist.
The referees are constantly being called out. Every second post in this thread is complaining about a referee being crap at his job.
The issue with VAR is that it was supposed to make referees better at their job. When a new technology is intended to improve refereeing performances and turns out to have the opposite effect then I’d say the new technology is a bigger problem than the referees.
The refs got called out before too. There wasn’t any utopia pre VAR. The stats I’ve seen show there are fewer incorrect decisions per game - so it hasn’t had the opposite impact. It just feels like more because BT devote 24 minutes of their 25 minute post match coverage to talking about fecking VAR! It definitely improves decisions from an outcome basis - whether it’s worth the hassle is the argument.
Ok, yeah, I maybe worded it wrong. It feels like it’s having the opposite effect. We sacrifice the flow of the game for the sake of tedious pedantry. And yet we’re still seeing terrible decisions every week. Which means all the collateral damage isn’t worth it.
It’s getting harder to ignore that refs are potentially sabotaging VAR, referee decisions are genuinely worse than ever with the aid of camera angles etc.
I can’t help but think if we changed up the refs to not have such a rank bunch of losers in charge then maybe they could apply the technology better, but who knows.
I can’t help but think if we changed up the refs to not have such a rank bunch of losers in charge then maybe they could apply the technology better, but who knows.
Of course it is. It's a matchday.
I wonder if refs are purposely doing this because they don't want to have VAR.
Nah. The reality is that VAR isn't going anywhere and I'm sure they're as aware of that as anyone. Plus it's not like they don't get criticised in incidents like this either.
It's just incompetence. From the refs but more so from the people who create the protocols and train the refs.
Slow motion or not, all pundits and anyone who has played football knows that was not a red card today. Yet the VAR concludes it so obviously was that the on pitch official made a clear and obvious error and the first referee then immediately changes his decision upon seeing it on screen.
This isn’t a VAR issue. It’s a problem with the referees and/or the guidance they are receiving. The fact that they never have to then explain how they have reached decisions that 100% of commentators disagree with just compounds the problems. They need a complete rework of rules and approach in my view.
The acid test here is going to be whether this gets overturned on appeal.
This isn’t a VAR issue. It’s a problem with the referees and/or the guidance they are receiving. The fact that they never have to then explain how they have reached decisions that 100% of commentators disagree with just compounds the problems. They need a complete rework of rules and approach in my view.
The acid test here is going to be whether this gets overturned on appeal.
Or it's highlighting just how bad the referees are.
It literally happened within 0.6 seconds of the West Ham player striking the ball.
What’s the West Ham player supposed to do?
Good idea.
Surprised you don’t have a graph showing silly VAR calls.
That’s in no way pejorative, there’s just been so many they could probably start being compared against each other & absurdity in general.