It's not irrelevant though, you just don't like it because it counters your point. Take your blinkers off and view it with some objectivity, if that's possible for a poster like you.
Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
- Thread starter Annihilate Now!
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It is irrelevant. It doesn't matter why McTominay threw his arm back.
I'll correct you as well. It wasn't a fingertip.
It is irrelevant because Son committed a foul first which takes precedence.
Wait. So you agree McTominay fouled Son? Your whole issue with this controversy is that Son fouled him first?
It was the side of his hand.
Wait. So you agree McTominay fouled Son? Your whole issue with this controversy is that Son fouled him first?
It was the side of his hand.
His fingers by the looks of it.
Either way it wasn't his arm as you suggested.
Yeah, it's his fingers that you can clearly see beyond Son's face...
I don't think it really matters what area it was that hit him. That's classic deflection. It's clearly a foul and it's hilarious you can look at that image and still argue against it.
That picture doesn’t show any contact, I think the side of his hand (little finger) is still a mm or two from contact, may just have minutely flicked his face before removing his arm, the picture doesn’t show which direction his arm is moving, basically your picture is not proving any point for you
I prefer correct and accurate information. One could suggest you were deliberately being misleading suggesting he had been struck by an arm. Sounds much more sensational doesn't it?
The Sun would be proud.
Not really. I misspoke. I'm getting quoted in another thread where I described it as a "slap" which would be much more accurate. It happens.
Exactly. Although it does prove my point that Son wasn't struck by Mctominays arm as @Pink Moon stated.
I appreciate you acknowledging you got it wrong in that case.
Toronto FC robbed of a clear onside goal in the Concacaf Champions League.
Thankfully no big bad VAR to correct the decision. Would have ruined my emotions of having a goal wrongly called offside. Phew glad we got that.
Thankfully no big bad VAR to correct the decision. Would have ruined my emotions of having a goal wrongly called offside. Phew glad we got that.
Nice one.What do you guys say about City's penalty against Dortmund? I mean I was against Dortmund, so I got no issues with them losing, but why did VAR did not overturn turn this clear mistake. You got to ask yourself what are the video referees actually doing during the game.
What do you guys say about City's penalty against Dortmund? I mean I was against Dortmund, so I got no issues with them losing, but why did VAR did not overturn turn this clear mistake. You got to ask yourself what are the video referees actually doing during the game.
Think it was a mistake by VAR. They considered Can's arm to be in an unnatural position, hence handball, so they didn't ask the referee to review it.... They ignore the fact that his arm could pretty much only be in that position because he was stooping down to head the ball, from that header the ball deflected on to the top of his arm.
Had he blocked the ball with his arm in this position without heading it, for me it would then quite clearly be a penalty.
It's the fact he plays the ball in a natural way, I don't see how anyone could expect his arms to be somewhere else here when he heads the ball like that?
Maybe the referees have guidance about such a situation. ?
For me it's quite obviously a mistake.
What do you guys say about City's penalty against Dortmund? I mean I was against Dortmund, so I got no issues with them losing, but why did VAR did not overturn turn this clear mistake. You got to ask yourself what are the video referees actually doing during the game.
Can's hand was in an unnatural position. If his arm was by his side and the ball ricochets on it then fair enough.
I thought shirt sleeves aren't supposed to be considered handball anymore?
You can see the confusion by looking at this Rojo VAR review from the 2018 world cup which wasn't given as a penalty:
Rojo jumping for the ball which can't do with his hands by his sides, heads ball on to his own arm , they considered his arms to be in a natural position so no penalty.
Rojo jumping for the ball which can't do with his hands by his sides, heads ball on to his own arm , they considered his arms to be in a natural position so no penalty.
Arm/hand position in relation to players body movement, so it's hardly an unnatural position. His arm movement is a result of his body movement, it's not a result of him trying to make himself bigger. It's poor judgement, imo.
Overall, decisions have been surprisingly shit given the tools the refs have available. Like the absolutely mental decision to blow for a free kick against Bellingham when the ball was about to roll into the open net against Manchester City last week. It's just complete shambles, if he thinks it's a freekick then let the ball roll in, signal for a freekick and tell VAR what you think happened and it should be sorted out with the goal being allowed. Removing the option for VAR to intervene in situations like that is so fecking stupid....
That's not really the way "unnatural position" works.
We've seen plenty of instances where the player's arm is in a position that we might consider natural for their movement but is deemed to be in an unnatural position because it is making their body bigger beyond the silhouette of the body.
If you stick your arm out and away from the body in the way Can does, whether it feels like a natural part of your movement of not, it's likely to be deemed that you're making your body unnaturally bigger.
Also worth bearing in mind the referee had already given the penalty, so VAR had to decide whether he made a mistake. There's no way you could call that a mistake on the ref's part as it's entirely in line with how handballs are judged. Other refs might have come to a different conclusion (because it's subjective) but this ref's decision wasn't actively wrong.
It doesn't help that the handball law is a mess, mind.
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No.... the rule is that because he heads it and it hits his arm after that, it's not a penalty. Nothing to do with an unnatural position or not.
It's not, there is a specific rule for headers and subsequent arm contact - it's never a penalty.
"There will be no penalty if: the ball touches a player's hand/arm immediately from their own head/body/foot or the head/body/foot of another player."
Just came here to say: the game's gone.
I still play footy most days with my mates down at the park and I have to say we routinely find the professional VAR rules to be more and more disconnected from the games we play in the park without use of technology. Handball, we're pretty strict on as we give every little touch of the hand and arm as a handball, but the physical battles I'm more and more baffled by. Why are the refs so damn intent on taking any kind of contact out of the sport? Who made the decision that every brush of the hand in the face was a foul? Who decided that every contact regardless of force or pressure "should" be a foul and the player "should" go down to emphasize that?
Its' all the referees. Why are referees this protected species that must never ever be questioned? They're the least important part in a game of football. You don't play in the playground with the refs do you? That ensures the rules remain balanced as both teams are negotiating them in the game while playing. I think that negotiation is what keeps the rules grounded and sensible and we need to bring an element of that negotiation to the professional game ASAP. We have to have some sort of feedback mechanism where the referees are answerable to the ordinary fans, just like players and managers are.
Someone please explain to me why we shouldn't or cannot have, say, a referees' press conference after every game where the referee has to justify their decisions.
Also, and this is the first and the easiest thing to do, we should absolutely be able to hear the communications between the referee and VAR on the live broadcast.
Until and unless this problem of the Referee Supremacy is dealt with, the game is definitely gone, if not yet then imminently.
PS: An additional nugget of thought I had - if your rules need a referee to enforce, the rules are shit. That's hyperbole of course but I think there is a kernel of truth in there.
I still play footy most days with my mates down at the park and I have to say we routinely find the professional VAR rules to be more and more disconnected from the games we play in the park without use of technology. Handball, we're pretty strict on as we give every little touch of the hand and arm as a handball, but the physical battles I'm more and more baffled by. Why are the refs so damn intent on taking any kind of contact out of the sport? Who made the decision that every brush of the hand in the face was a foul? Who decided that every contact regardless of force or pressure "should" be a foul and the player "should" go down to emphasize that?
Its' all the referees. Why are referees this protected species that must never ever be questioned? They're the least important part in a game of football. You don't play in the playground with the refs do you? That ensures the rules remain balanced as both teams are negotiating them in the game while playing. I think that negotiation is what keeps the rules grounded and sensible and we need to bring an element of that negotiation to the professional game ASAP. We have to have some sort of feedback mechanism where the referees are answerable to the ordinary fans, just like players and managers are.
Someone please explain to me why we shouldn't or cannot have, say, a referees' press conference after every game where the referee has to justify their decisions.
Also, and this is the first and the easiest thing to do, we should absolutely be able to hear the communications between the referee and VAR on the live broadcast.
Until and unless this problem of the Referee Supremacy is dealt with, the game is definitely gone, if not yet then imminently.
PS: An additional nugget of thought I had - if your rules need a referee to enforce, the rules are shit. That's hyperbole of course but I think there is a kernel of truth in there.
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Nope, it is.
Here's the rules:
Key line there is "Except for the above offences". Everything above that overrides everything below.
In this instance we're looking at the "touches the ball with their hand/arm when:" section above that line, which lays out that it's an offence if the player touches the ball with his hand/arm when they're making the body unnaturally bigger.
You'll also note it says it wouldn't be an offence if he had deliberately played the ball only for it to hit his hand/arm, but that only applies to when his hand/arm is above shoulder height. In this case the ref would have judged it to be at the player's waist, so the hand making the body unnaturally bigger is what matters.
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What do you guys say about City's penalty against Dortmund? I mean I was against Dortmund, so I got no issues with them losing, but why did VAR did not overturn turn this clear mistake. You got to ask yourself what are the video referees actually doing during the game.
Dortmund were robbed in this tie. Bellingham's goal was ruled out for no reason at all, ref couldn't wait to blow the whistle when he could have waited for VAR to check (like every other ref does) and then bs call for penalty. Can headed the ball first, it shouldn't be penalty.
Pretty much.
For me that Rojo call is how defensive handball is meant to work if ball deflects on to the arm from a natural play of the ball, Dale Johnson has good thread on it. Principle of handball:
Worth noting IFAB haven't actually changed the law recently, they've tried to clarify it by putting referee guidelines in the laws. They've obviously failed to make it clearer. Next season will be back to the referee judgement more.
Your quote seems to focus on offensive actions. Can was in defence though.Nope, it is.
Here's the rules:
Key line there is "Except for the above offences". Everything above that overrides everything below.
In this instance we're looking at the "touches the ball with their hand/arm when:" section above that line, which lays out that it's an offence if the player touches the ball with his hand/arm when they're making the body unnaturally bigger.
You'll also note it says it wouldn't be an offence if he had deliberately played the ball only for it to hit his hand/arm, but that only applies to when his hand/arm is above shoulder height. In this case the ref would have judged it to be at the player's waist, so the hand making the body unnaturally bigger is what matters.
So I can raise my hands above my head and it's not a hand ball as long as it touches my head first?
As far as I understand it, it's an offence in attack but not in defence.
It's subjective, it depends if your arm is considered to be in a natural position or not when the ball hits it after hitting your head (or foot).
So as an extreme example if you star jump to block a shot and ball deflects off your foot or head to your arm a penality will be given. You've made your body bigger to block the ball in an unnatural way.
As far as I'm aware there's no distinction between attack and defence in this instance.
In your quote, there seems to be one. They are talking about creating goal scoring opportunities and scoring goals. It implies that it does not apply to all situations.
The rules I quoted also talk about attack-specific handball situations (like scoring directly after handling the ball) but those are separate points. The relevant piece of the law here applies to both attackers and defenders.
If you look at the tweet thread @Mb194dc posted on the previous page talking about the handball law then you'll see those same rules being cited in regards to the Can handball.
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More of that narrative refereeing bullshit. Amad through on goal and blatantly tripped but "Nah, it makes no difference on the game and I'll have to send him off so I'll leave them away with it."
As much as I hate to admit it, I think it was a penalty. How stupid Can was there. That’s the height of negligence, I mean nobody is holding your hands and so you should show full awareness of your body movements.
He basically gifted City that win because up to that point they had contained City easily.
He basically gifted City that win because up to that point they had contained City easily.
Europa League refs are fecking awful
Yep! Ref didn’t want to make a difficult decision. Simple as that.
Agreed. Refereed correctly and the scores should have been 2-2 and 1-1, with Dortmund going through on the away goals rule.