Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion

[arnie_ni]

The red card for him and Luiz is ridiculous. That law has to be changed that a complete accident like both of them can't be a red

 

[Foxbatt]

I thought it was a good goal for Southampton. The Cavani penalty was the right decision and so was for the Martial one.

 

[Toad]

Refs can't win really , if they apply it to the letter then people want common sense but if they use an interpretation then people want them to follow the law

Only thing that went wrong for me was the Cavani potential penalty but who cares, we won 9-0. Granted VAR took a decade and the stoppage time didn’t justify that but none of that is the refs fault. He called the correct decisions and had a very good game. It’s kind of the same as some people saying it’s unsporting to keep having in goals, it’s not at all, if we list the title or top 4 on goal difference then how many would be crying about it?

 

[awop]

In that scenario we aren’t sitting around three minutes waiting for them to still get it wrong.

Yes, but you can't pick and choose, this is not a buffet. In that scenario you also have Diego Costa wannabe elbowing people when the ref isnt looking, marginals (or not) offsides goals against you in the first, 17th or last game of the season (and no it doesn't even itself out). It's all about pros and cons and as someone else said, your annoyance at this is justified but don't matter much to those in charge. I'm also annoyed when a perfectly clear situation takes 4minutes to be decided.

 

[noodlehair]

It's actually impressive how incompetent our referees are.

That must have been the easiest game ever to officiate after the first red card, and Dean and co still found a way to turn it into a complete fecking shambles.

You can give these idiots all the tools in the world to help them referee and they'll just keep finding ways to do it wrong.

 

[Wilt]

Feckin joke 3 minute extra time ...Dean spent half the evening scratching his arse staring at the VAR screen

 

[VivaRonaldo85]

It’s created a lot more questions than solved answers. Rules are being changed every week to keep up with the use of VAR and its technology. Total nonsense that the games are being refereed by a bloke hundreds of miles away. If I had my way it would all be done away with apart from goal line technology at the end of the season. Unfortunately feels like it’s here to stay though.

 

[acnumber9]

Yes, but you can't pick and choose, this is not a buffet. In that scenario you also have Diego Costa wannabe elbowing people when the ref isnt looking, marginals (or not) offsides goals against you in the first, 17th or last game of the season (and no it doesn't even itself out). It's all about pros and cons and as someone else said, your annoyance at this is justified but don't matter much to those in charge. I'm also annoyed when a perfectly clear situation takes 4minutes to be decided.

It will matter to those in charge when people decide they aren’t as invested in football as they used to be.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Even after the horror show of tonight, i'm still pro VAR but can't be arsed repeating every weekend the same arguments to the same questions and i'm sure most people feel the same. On paper (and in reality) the game is better with VAR.
Every question about the rules are the same that were asked and needed to be resolved 2 years ago, last year and at the start of this season. There's litteraly been a worldwide pandemic that stopped the game for months and they haven't bothered meeting up and drawing actual useful and applicable changes. They went on holidays and are changing it on the fly every time something weird happens.

Each instance of a cockup, people whine but 90% of the time the exact same decision would have been taken if there was no VAR because referees are inept. VAR or not the same humans are making stupid decisions. Until there is a massive change in leadership, training and rules, progress will be very very slow.

Luiz and Southampton's red are ridiculous but 100% correct according to the current rules. If both players make a bad tackle (as in poorly executed not violent) and concede a penalty, they probably only get a yellow. Have minimal contact with a striker running at full speed or try to avoid contact and you're sent off. If this is not a stupid rule that should be changed by 8am tomorrow morning, i don't know what should be done.

No, it’s not.

 

[MikeKing]

Can everyone please stop saying VAR needs to go? Look how much it is able to highlight and reveal what the real level of ineptness of Premier League referees look like. They have no fumbling idea on how to interpret the rulebook they just make it up as they go along.

They have some experience in judging based on 'feel' and they have gotten away with horrible decisions every season, totally taking away the beauty of the game changing the rules every week and now that is being scrutinised and put under a microscope so we all can see that they don't actually know the rules that well and makes big and small mistakes almost every game. That's not acceptable. There is no point of displaying it to the world if it's just going to continue like this though but you have to take it for what it is and demand change where it matters. Removing VAR at this point makes no difference, it's the same refs and the same rules, we only now get a glimpse of how horrible they really are, let's not take away from that and give everyone responsible an excuse by lazily just 'blaming VAR'.

 

[awop]

No, it’s not.

If you can't accept half of the bolded part, we have nothing to talk about. You keep posting the same thing and multiple posters showed you through studies around Europe that it is.
You disagree on the "emotional" part of the game and that's fine, but ultimately it don't matter and to respond to @acnumber9 i don't think it ever will if we're realistic. There will always be enough customers and demand as sad as it is.

 

[Zlatan 7]

If you can't accept half of the bolded part, we have nothing to talk about. You keep posting the same thing and multiple posters showed you through studies around Europe that it is.
You disagree on the "emotional" part of the game and that's fine, but ultimately it don't matter and to respond to @acnumber9 i don't think it ever will if we're realistic. There will always be enough customers and demand as sad as it is.

That you think VAR has made the game better is an opinion. In my opinion it is absolutely killing the game.

I’d also add that seeing people use the money at stake as a reason for it and ultimately fans in the stadiums don’t matter is staggering. So much for grass roots football and football for the fans, basically what football is all about.

 

[The Purley King]

I used to be a qualified referee. Registration lapsed a few years ago now.
Dean was absolutely correct to send bednarek off. Martial had his right ankle kicked twice. Yes he was half way down anyway but clear contact = penalty.
If people don’t like that then change the rules.
What is 100% unforgivable is the injury time in the 2nd half.
30 seconds per goal = 2.5 minutes plus 30 seconds per sub plus deans time watching the telly plus other var checks.
8 minutes minimum and if the league is lost on goal difference (big if obviously!!!) then this should be analysed.

 

[Fitchett]

People are moaning about VAR and the mistakes they make. Which is fair enough. But let's not forget that the Video Assistant Referees (VAR) are the same incompetent clowns we see in the middle of the pitch. Let's not forget how we have started getting penalties which in previous seasons were denied us, as it is more difficult to ignore, now that most penalty claims are reviewed. Of course, VAR system is imperfect, but its a big improvement on what went on before. What it does show is how incompetent, inconsistent and corrupt refereeing is in the PL. Tonight, we should have had a penalty in the first half, but offside for their "goal" and the second red card were harsh. That said, something approaching ten minutes stoppage time should have been added, not three.

 

[MikeeMike]

Two consecutive games where players who’ve pulled out of tackles getting reds, ours was super soft, I was half expecting Martial to get booked for diving, yet VAR sends off their player.

Same in Arsenal game.

Plus the disallowed Pen in our game, Cavani’s boot is on the line, VAR then fabricates a situation where the contact may have occurred millimetres before the line. What’s clear and obvious about mere millimetres?

The offside rule, the handball rule... all laughably affected by VAR. Through over implementation of a technology, and the idiots that use it, where it isn’t needed.

On the whole I agree about the over implementation and my hatred is only due to time taken for decision and how this has killed the celebration of a goal. Now you just look at ref for dreaded possible da da da.

But your argument about Cavani example simply makes no sense. I could see from replay that contact was not inside the box so “fabricating a situation” seems odd. What is clear and obvious about millimetres is if replay shows mm’s outside box then it is so, no?

 

[Zlatan 7]

I know it was Robbie savage but after almost every goal the instant talk was how the goal could possibly be ruled out. That’s the mindset it’s putting into people

 

[MikeeMike]

I know it was Robbie savage but after almost every goal the instant talk was how the goal could possibly be ruled out. That’s the mindset it’s putting into people

Yeah but not many minds to set when Savage preaches

 

[RUCK4444]

On the whole I agree about the over implementation and my hatred is only due to time taken for decision and how this has killed the celebration of a goal. Now you just look at ref for dreaded possible da da da.

But your argument about Cavani example simply makes no sense. I could see from replay that contact was not inside the box so “fabricating a situation” seems odd. What is clear and obvious about millimetres is if replay shows mm’s outside box then it is so, no?

What I mean with the Cavani decision is that the foot is clearly on the line, it's not clear and obvious that the 'contact started' millimetres outside of the box.

The ref has given it as a penalty and in my opinion that's too close a call to wait god knows how long for some numpty miles away to get his geometry set out and start calculating things to the greatest possible degree.

That sort of incident shouldn't even be reviewed in my opinion. Not because it would have gone in our favour in this instance, just for the fluidity of the game and tempo.

For the record I disagree with the penalty we won and the red card Bednarek received, it's clearly a dive from Martial. Mike Dean should have reversed his decision, instead because VAR is involved he goes and compounds his error by giving a red card. All because the rules are being changed and bastardised to fit this floored technology.
Likewise I believe their goal that was disallowed is a perfectly acceptable goal, I can't see any clear offside whatsoever, he looks onside to me.

It's just messy. It will always be messy. The moment we took a step past simple goal line technology we were always going to end up neck deep in messy over analysis. Ultimately the floor in the system is human error, that will never change, so it will never be this perfect system that people seem to think it will eventually become.

Human nature dictates that those in charge will be too pig headed to acknowledge it's adversely affected the sport and they will press on with it, changing the rules every few weeks to try and make it fit, ultimately it won't.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's actually impressive how incompetent our referees are.

That must have been the easiest game ever to officiate after the first red card, and Dean and co still found a way to turn it into a complete fecking shambles.

You can give these idiots all the tools in the world to help them referee and they'll just keep finding ways to do it wrong.

I think Dean actually called it all ok, whoever is in the VAR room must have been on the sauce.

Cavani one is a peno
Soton goal was fine
I actually think Martial dived but regardless that law awful. Better Bednarek clatter him and take the yellow than pull out and get a red.

Should have been 10-1 assuming we scored the peno.

 

[acnumber9]

Better Bednarek clatter him and take the yellow than pull out and get a red.

That would still be a red. The red is for making no attempt to play the ball.

 

[NICanRed]

One of the most endearing things about football is that little Willie playing for the Under 11s, big Sam playing for the pub team and everyone playing in the thousands of games each weekend all feel they are governed by the same rules.
Along comes the PL and big business where goals and results = £pounds and everything has to change. Is football still the people’s beautiful game?

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

That second red for them was ridiculous, I know by the rules it was a red but where's the common sense?

They're injury plagued already and now they're missing a player for a stupid suspension

Officiating isn’t meant to be emotional.

Theres an argument as to whether it was a foul in the first place but once the decision was made he has to go.

It’s unfortunate for them but refereeing is bad enough without asking them to base decisions on injury lists & score lines [Im certain most referees do this, we’ve all seen second yellows not given late in games etc.] but for a decision like tonight there was only one choice.

 

[slyadams]

I think Dean actually called it all ok, whoever is in the VAR room must have been on the sauce.

Cavani one is a peno
Soton goal was fine
I actually think Martial dived but regardless that law awful. Better Bednarek clatter him and take the yellow than pull out and get a red.

Should have been 10-1 assuming we scored the peno.

Its not an awful rule, its designed for a specific reason to stop players making incredibly cynical fouls inside the box and avoiding the red card under the new rule. I would rather it this way where exceedingly rarely you get a red card like this that is soft than players being able to escape the full punishment for shithousery. I also think the overall rule change is a good one: a penalty, red card and suspension was too harsh of a punishment for what could be a simple mis-timed challenge.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That would still be a red. The red is for making no attempt to play the ball.

They said on commentary it would have been yellow.

 

[acnumber9]

They said on commentary it would have been yellow.

They talk shite though. It’s only not a red if they’re trying to play the ball.

 

[MikeKing]

One of the most endearing things about football is that little Willie playing for the Under 11s, big Sam playing for the pub team and everyone playing in the thousands of games each weekend all feel they aren’t governed by the same rules.
Along comes the PL and big business where goals and results = £pounds and everything has to change. Is football still the people’s beautiful game?

Surely there should be a higher standard of referees at the highest level than a ref whos best friend is coach Sam who is playing his son Ron as a striker even though he has no endearing qualities on the pitch while the fatherless child but potentially good striker is sitting on the bench twiddling his thumbs.

Its not an awful rule, its designed for a specific reason to stop players making incredibly cynical fouls inside the box and avoiding the red card under the new rule. I would rather it this way where exceedingly rarely you get a red card like this that is soft than players being able to escape the full punishment for shithousery. I also think the overall rule change is a good one: a penalty, red card and suspension was too harsh of a punishment for what could be a simple mis-timed challenge.

I wasn't sure about this but you make a persuasive argument. If they stick to this rule and apply it consistently it will mean that the amount of players trying to get a leverage through cynical play will go down eventually. They got rid of a lot of play acting that period where it seemed they didn't tolerate any diving but now that the lines have been blurred again, it is more and more common and even part of the game some say.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Its not an awful rule, its designed for a specific reason to stop players making incredibly cynical fouls inside the box and avoiding the red card under the new rule. I would rather it this way where exceedingly rarely you get a red card like this that is soft than players being able to escape the full punishment for shithousery. I also think the overall rule change is a good one: a penalty, red card and suspension was too harsh of a punishment for what could be a simple mis-timed challenge.

It is an awful rule for the same reason the Maguire/Ramsdale header retrospectively being ‘ok’ is a bad idea.

VAR really struggles with grey areas and how would you, I or Mike Dean be able to tell of a player has tried to play the ball or done it cynically.

What I can tell you with certainty is Bednarek pulls out of that challenge and it’s debatable if there’s even contact/if it’s a dive.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Today we were greatly benefited by VAR, Southampton's goal shouldnt have been disallowed. The offside is so slim that the time when the image is frozen has to be perfect, it hardly is. Im all out against ruling that kind of plays as offsides.

The penalty and second red card is just ridiculous, if anything it was a yellow card to Martial for clearly diving.

I think that decision is going to cost us, it will be commented and then refeeres will try to overcompensate by not giving us 50/50 decisions so they don't look compromised.

 

[NinjaFletch]

They talk shite though. It’s only not a red if they’re trying to play the ball.

I thought Rio articulated it poorly, but the general point he was making had a little bit of sense, I thought.

The way the laws are written you're incentivised to completely clean out a player to try and get something on the ball so you can claim that you 'played it' rather than to trip them and take a red. That might not work, but you're putting some doubt in the referees mind that you shouldn't be red carded by doing something more dangerous to your opposition.

At any rate, it's a weird little black hole.

 

[acnumber9]

I thought Rio articulated it poorly, but the general point he was making had a little bit of sense, I thought.

The way the laws are written you're incentivised to completely clean out a player to try and get something on the ball so you can claim that you 'played it' rather than to trip them and take a red. That might not work, but you're putting some doubt in the referees mind that you shouldn't be red carded by doing something more dangerous to your opposition.

At any rate, it's a weird little black hole.

Yeah, it’s an issue I had with it when they created that rule about double jeopardy. In that instance tonight the ball was too far beyond the defender to do that though.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I thought Rio articulated it poorly, but the general point he was making had a little bit of sense, I thought.

The way the laws are written you're incentivised to completely clean out a player to try and get something on the ball so you can claim that you 'played it' rather than to trip them and take a red. That might not work, but you're putting some doubt in the referees mind that you shouldn't be red carded by doing something more dangerous to your opposition.

At any rate, it's a weird little black hole.

I agree with That and it may be true but in the instance tonight the ball had long gone and the defender wasn’t getting any closer to getting anywhere near it even if he did smash through martial

 

[lex talionis]

The foul call and the ensuing red card were by the book. The struggle I think we’re having is what the rule (well, Law) should say about a player who’s clearly in the act of diving before there’s any contact.

Martial was going down before he was brought down. Even if that’s debatable, let’s assume it’s not. Just what should the decision by rule be in a case when when a player is clearly diving, already half way down, and then is clipped?

 

[NinjaFletch]

Yeah, it’s an issue I had with it when they created that rule about double jeopardy. In that instance tonight the ball was too far beyond the defender to do that though.

I agree with That and it may be true but in the instance tonight the ball had long gone and the defender wasn’t getting any closer to getting anywhere near it even if he did smash through martial

Agreed with both, and at any rate I thought Martial had kicked the ball away in playing for it, so I'm not sure it was a DOGSO offence anyway.

I think the solution is just being very, very lenient on what a deliberate action looks like and avoiding double jeopardy red cards unless you're given absolutely no choice. Both incidents tonight were, probably, fouls, but there was no real malice in either so I think a penalty in both cases was fine and suited the crime.

You might miss some red cards for players who are very good at making collisions look accidental, but you're still giving a penalty and you're ruining less games as a spectacle so it's probably a price worth paying.

 

[acnumber9]

You might miss some red cards for players who are very good at making collisions look accidental, but you're still giving a penalty and you're ruining less games as a spectacle so it's probably a price worth paying.

I think that’s why Luiz was sent off. If you would expect any player to try and make a deliberate foul look like an accident, it’s him.

 

[alexthelion]

Why should it be when the majority of people don’t want it?

Because the refs and their decisions were even worse before VAR.

 

[theklr]

Its really impossible for anyone to see if it was a dive, small contact or just him stumbling in his own feet. What is clear to see is that Bednarek really tries to avoid any contact. A red should be for a deliberate action, not this. Im glad OGS spoke out about it.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Questionable decisions yesterday:

Cavani foul overturned.

Southampton offside. I would say it was exactly the same as Martial’s first goal.

Martial’s dive for a penalty. The ref then bizarrely gives a penalty and red card to the defender. I was fumIng with Martial at the time because a decent striker tries to score, he looked to get a penalty.

3 major decisions. Not saying it would have effected the result but it would never have been 9-0.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Because the refs and their decisions were even worse before VAR.

Yet the referee got the big decisions correct in real time last night.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Yet the referee got the big decisions correct in real time last night.

Great point, how odd is that? Refs probably got all the big decisions right and VAR came along and arguably changed them all to the wrong decision (Cavani pen, Southampton goal, Martial pen).

 

[saivet]

I thought Rio articulated it poorly, but the general point he was making had a little bit of sense, I thought.

The way the laws are written you're incentivised to completely clean out a player to try and get something on the ball so you can claim that you 'played it' rather than to trip them and take a red. That might not work, but you're putting some doubt in the referees mind that you shouldn't be red carded by doing something more dangerous to your opposition.

At any rate, it's a weird little black hole.

I think there is a degree of that but it's only applicable when the ball is there to be won. In the Luiz and Bednarek scenarios, say they made a lunge for the ball, they'd both still be sent off. I think it's more the 50/50 scenarios where it encourages a defender to lunge in where they otherwise may stay on their feet. Regardless the rule should be tweaked.