Refs & VAR 2020/2021 Discussion
- Thread starter Annihilate Now!
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Watch it again, mate. It is actually pretty clear that it was a trip. Just watch his legs and how they trip over his teammate's legs. What do people do when they're tripped? They put their hands out in front of them to cushion the fall. The "rugby tackle" was simply that. If you can't concede that this happened after watching the clip again (all angles), then I can't help you.
Riiight. People put their hands out, plant their feet and shove the guy Infront them like a rugby scrum. That's exactly what happens when you trip.
Even if that does happen it doesn't mean it shouldn't have been a fk
Out of interest because this is bugging me with how illogical it is, what was everyone's take on the Firmino handball specifically?
It is definitely handball so I agree with the goal being ruled out but how on earth is it a FK to the defending team?
It's undeniable from the VAR replays that Dier is fouling Firmino before the handball occurs. Fouling is a mild way to put it because he's essentially got his shirt in both hands and is wrestling him out the way, if it was in the box it would be a stonewall peno with VAR. No one can ever prove if Firmino was 'made' to make the handball by Dier's foul so that is irrelevant but you can 100% say the foul from Dier came first as it's very evident on the replays. The process just makes no sense whatsoever.
It is definitely handball so I agree with the goal being ruled out but how on earth is it a FK to the defending team?
It's undeniable from the VAR replays that Dier is fouling Firmino before the handball occurs. Fouling is a mild way to put it because he's essentially got his shirt in both hands and is wrestling him out the way, if it was in the box it would be a stonewall peno with VAR. No one can ever prove if Firmino was 'made' to make the handball by Dier's foul so that is irrelevant but you can 100% say the foul from Dier came first as it's very evident on the replays. The process just makes no sense whatsoever.
I guess it's handball because that was the decision which ruled out the goal. You're right though, Liverpool should have probably had a free kick. Even if you disregard the foul, Dier handles the ball first. And VAR can overrule the on-field decision with fouls as we saw with Shaw vs Burnley.
On the other hand, why was the goal ruled out? Obviously I was happy the goal was disallowed at the time, but didn't they update the handball rule so that the handball has to lead directly to a goal? Going back to the Chelsea equalizer vs West Brom, there was less time between the handball and goal in that game than there was yesterday but that was allowed to stand.
This is from the premier league webstie:
"An accidental handball by an attacking player or team-mate will only be penalised if it occurs immediately before a goal or a goalscoring opportunity.
If an attacking player accidentally touches the ball with their hand or arm and then scores a goal, or the ball goes to another attacking player and they immediately score, this is a handball offence.
But it is not a handball offence if after an accidental handball the ball travels some distance via a pass or a dribble, or there are several passes before the goal or goalscoring opportunity."
Again, VAR showing incredible inconsistency.
You're just being deliberately obtuse now. It is quite clear upon watching the video that is exactly what happened. I can tell you haven't even bothered to go back and watch it again, otherwise you'd definitely be seeing it in a new light, having seen the clear trip.
I could be wrong, but I could have sworn that the new rules meant that overruling a goal for a handball in the build up was only taken into account if it was done by the scorer or the assist provider? Firmino was an extra step beyond that. I think it was very, very harsh. Like you said, Dier was fouling Firmino, and on top of that, the ball actually hit Dier's arm first, before hitting Firmino's. I don't think Firmino's handball was deliberate at all. If anything, he would have wanted the ball to carry on the way it was going, and the handball actually made it more difficult for him to get it under control. In the slow mo replays, it looks a little deliberate, but in real time, I think it is impossible to say that it was deliberate, so like I said, very, very harsh. I am just glad it didn't make a difference in the end, aside from ruling out what was a very nice goal.
This was my thought too. My guess is that - rightly or wrongly - they ruled that the handball was deliberate, because he does sort of move his arm toward the ball. I'm pretty sure that, as you say, if its an inadvertent handball, then its only supposed to matter if its the scorer or the assist provider.
I thought the Son non-goal was another decision that just illustrated the overall stupidity of VAR and limitations of the system. The camera only captures 50 frames per second. In the frame they selected as the moment at which the ball was played, Son was probably offside by 4-5 centimeters. But he was springing toward the ball and the defender moving away from the ball and both of them are going to be moving at several centimeters per frame in opposite directions, so if they had decided that the ball was struck one frame later then he would likely have been judged onside. Since there is really no way to say with absolute confidence which frame the ball was played (each one is only 1/50th of a second ffs), its totally arbitrary.
I see no one wheeled out any ex refs to discuss the Sheff United goal vs ours. You can be damn sure if the decisions were reversed it would be the only thing being discussed
This was my take as well. Firmino moved his arm towards the ball which indicates deliberate intention to use his hand/arm to control the ball, which in the same phase of play leads to Salah scoring.
The goal was rightly ruled out imo.
That last point is even more damning, I hadn't even seen that.
Yes, the poster above found the PL wording and it's true, it should not have stood by their own interpretations anyway so not only was it wrong (should have been a FK to Pool) it was also wrong by the letter of their law.
The Dier incident for me is the most annoying because VAR was supposed to be the killer of all the off the ball holding that makes games so much less exciting and is biased towards defenders, there was that period when it seemed every week there was VAR giving penalties for holding on corners and generally in the box and then it just gave up. There'd be so many more goals and exciting moments if they actually got strict on it.
And your picking and choosing what to argue for and against.
Another one for the VAR can be pretty wank file
If that’s a legitimate offside then we might as well all pack up and go home. This sort of shit is killing football.
The handball by Cash for Villa was ridiculously not given
I doubt if the ref had given it initially, they would have overturned it.
Look how crooked the line is
It's ridiculous how far they will go to manipulate the outcome of the league. Not two fecks will be given though. Time to check out and leave football behind if this shit continues jeez, it has to be corrupt for it to be this bad. Just crazy.When the offside is that close they should just let the original decision stand. It's nonsense to pretend that the lines are objective at that level.
Look how crooked the line is
I wouldn’t say they’re trying to manipulate the outcome of the league but trying to spare the embarrassment of the official who wrongly raised the flag doesn’t seem unlikely.
Yeah, that was mental.
I guess but It doesn't make sense though as they have happily overturned many decisions before. Some games they change the outcome to be different than what is natural. Allowing wrong decisions to stand with VAR available is coming very close to corruption.
I know you're making a wider point but in this instance the linesmen did out his flag up. So without VAR it wouldn't have been a goal either. Then you get this only overturn a refs decision if it's clear and obvious, which is nonsense anyway.
Look how crooked the line is
The lines aren't crooked. You'll be doing a Chris Kamara and getting your ruler out next.
Don't see the issue with this one.
Obviously the "randomly pick a spot on the arm to judge from" thing is absolute horseshit. But in this case the line would have to be drawn near his shoulder for him to be onside, so he's definitely off regardless of where they subjective draw that line on the arm. There have been many tighter calls you could point to instead.
And more to the point, the linesman had already given offside anyway, so the goal would have been disallowed with or without VAR.
Which raises the key point about these marginal offside calls: they were being made before VAR ever existed and they would continue to be made if VAR went away. If people want to argue that they're too tight for VAR to call then that's fine, but that argument falls apart if the alternative is to get rid of VAR and go back to the linesmen making exact same tight calls much less accurately. Because while the linesman got this particular marginal cause right, they will regularly get them wrong as they're not superhuman. And unless the offside rules change they can't stop making them.
The lines aren't crooked but those running VAR is. The camera is above and tilted down so the offside line they drew is supposed to look more in line with the lines on the pitch. You don't see it? I might be real dumb though, I might be.
Good comments Mike. We both use the word corrupt in this thread. My daughter in law is a Manchester City fan (yes, I reprimanded my lad for that, but he assures me that she has redeeming qualities). She has long felt that the PL have a wider agenda to narrow things up, to keep up the interest in the league and thereby make more money, at the expense of sporting integrity. As can be seen from other threads on this site, the refs who get the biggest criticism on here are Michael Oliver, Martin Atkinson, Mike Dean and Jon Moss. I was astounded to read a post on Givemesport that Oliver, Atkinson and Dean are the three highest paid refs , each on a basic salary of £200k pa, plus match fees. The other PL refs are on a basic salary of either £70k or £48k pa. Therefore, is it within the bounds of possibility for these three to be an integral part of the PL's grander money making scam?The lines aren't crooked but those running VAR is. The camera is above and tilted down so the offside line they drew is supposed to look more in line with the lines on the pitch. You don't see it? I might be real dumb though, I might be.
I share your astonishment that Klopp hasn't been pulled by the FA for his comments about penalties. Didn't Van Gaal once get fined for complimenting a referee in a pre match press conference? Double standards as always at the FA and PL.
Did I just have a de ja vu?
What the hell.Ah, i think i get what you mean. And in that case, the answer is yes, you be real dumbThe lines aren't crooked but those running VAR is. The camera is above and tilted down so the offside line they drew is supposed to look more in line with the lines on the pitch. You don't see it? I might be real dumb though, I might be.
It's a trick of perspective, the lines are fine
It's more for me that this is what football is at the moment... that goals are decided based on some blokes arbitrary decision about where a "T-Shirt line" is, whilst also drawing a line from the tip of another players arse.
If this goal had been disallowed solely 'cos of the lino and there was no VAR or anything involved, I could live with the human error of that... I guess in theory therefore I should be fine with the human error of VAR and where a ref decides to draw lines, but I feel like it should be better then that.
That's definitely a repost
Only thing I'm not sure is if it's his original or he's taking the piss.That's definitely a repost
Feck off
Yeah that would help us
Ugh. It was clear as day that the push on the goal they scored was more of a foul than whatever Maguire did too.
I think this is a big part of the problem:
I think that's infuriating and something that should be complained about way more than those marginal offside calls are.
How the hell are they supposed to make consistent decisions if the bar for what's acceptable gets raised and dropped for random sections of the season? They're supposed to ask "has the ref made a mistake" but the threshold for what constitutes a mistake in this game could be entirely different to what it was when they were making a similar call 4 weeks before.
I think this is a big part of the problem:
I think that's infuriating and something that should be complained about way more than those marginal offside calls are.
How the hell are they supposed to make consistent decisions if the bar for what's acceptable gets raised and dropped for random sections of the season? They're supposed to ask "has the ref made a mistake" but the threshold for what constitutes a mistake in this game could be entirely different to what it was when they were making a similar call 4 weeks before.
Am I crazy to think that the Sheff Utd goal gets look at more thoroughly/has a great chance of being disallowed if De Gea makes a bigger song and dance about it / gets right in the refs face?
In the same way I honestly think we might not have got that penalty vs. Brighton if our players hadn't gone mental about the handball.
In the same way I honestly think we might not have got that penalty vs. Brighton if our players hadn't gone mental about the handball.
You are not crazy. To tell you the truth I didn't really notice that push on De Gea until half time when the guys in the studio brought it up. I really didn't pay much attention at the time, I was busy being hopping mad that we could actually concede a goal fekkings Sheffield United
If De Gea went ape shit crazy instead of standing there like a bemused llama, the VAR ref might have paid more attention, I know I would.
Well didn't he do that against Everton last year and it didn't get over turned, but then he did against Liverpool and it was?