Redcafe Sheep Draft Final - Gio vs Thisistheone

[antohan]

You're clueles. Where did i say Kohler is useless? Quote me.

I think everyone got the gist of it: dissing Kohler because his claimed best attribute was now irrelevant. No one bought it, not just me.

I noticed in an earlier refresh you were calling me an idiot as well. Classy, Theon rubbing it onto you now?

I think I'm making quite a sensible point re: benching the best DM and not using your best playmaker so that you can put Redondo on the teamsheet. It's an eye-sore, and others have pointed it out too. There's nothing wrong/negative/inferior about playing Makelele, the Galácticos of all people relied on him 100%.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Quite the opposite actually. Simeone would still be there and if Desailly as a centerback followed Totti's movement, Totti couldn't overload the midfield. Now Totti can operate between the lines and either Desailly takes care of him, which opens a gap for Scholes/Vieria or one of the centerbacks will be dragged out of defense and both are nowhere near as suited to that job as Desailly would be.

Lets agree to disagree, I think Desailly is smart enough not to man-mark Totti, but still close some space between midfield and defense.

 

[Moby]

I think everyone got the gist of it: dissing Kohler because his claimed best attribute was now irrelevant. No one bought it, not just me.

I noticed in an earlier refresh you were calling me an idiot as well. Classy, Theon rubbing it onto you now?

I think I'm making quite a sensible point re: benching the best DM and not using your best playmaker so that you can put Redondo on the teamsheet. It's an eye-sore, and others have pointed it out too. There's nothing wrong/negative/inferior about playing Makelele, the Galácticos of all people relied on him 100%.

Redondo is the best DM in his team, not Makelele.

 

[antohan]

@Annahnomoss , I'm getting killed here for playing a more defensive side than that. If I'd lined up with just Scholes-Redondo you lot would have my balls on a skewer!

Vieira is vital to that midfield. He brings the power, a true box to box player which i was lacking in the early rounds.

Actually, I mentioned earlier I thought you would play Redondo instead of Vieira. I don't think Annah's is far off there, bar the final point on playing Savicevic.

 

[Balu]

Lets agree to disagree, I think Desailly is smart enough not to man-mark Totti, but still close some space between midfield and defense.

Wait what? Desailly is now man-marking Totti when he drops deep and still helping Davids against Scholes, Vieria and Redondo? There's no way, he has time for Totti here, Totti is Campbell's and Kohler's job. No way around that.

 

[Thisistheone]

I think everyone got the gist of it: dissing Kohler because his claimed best attribute was now irrelevant. No one bought it, not just me.

I noticed in an earlier refresh you were calling me an idiot as well. Classy, Theon rubbing it onto you now?

I think I'm making quite a sensible point re: benching the best DM and not using your best playmaker so that you can put Redondo on the teamsheet. It's an eye-sore, and others have pointed it out too. There's nothing wrong/negative/inferior about playing Makelele, the Galácticos of all people relied on him 100%.

Let's not go down that road of being classy, please.

Let's focus on the game.

I did NOT call Kohler useless, as you said i did. I brought up a valid point in that Kohler would have prefered to have gone up against a classic no.9 where he could get to grips with him. That was my point. Totti dropping and the movement coming from elsewhere is a different problem for the German and Sol. So again, i in no way said he is useless. And i did not call him inferior.

Real Madrid also played Redondo as a lone DM. He can play the DM role here no problem. He is a better player than Makelele. To call it an eye-sore is way over the top and uncalled for.

 

[antohan]

It really isn't. You're acting like the side has fallen apart now that Fernando Redondo has come into it. Amazing. It really is.

It hasn't fallen apart. It's working differently, you said it yourself: Redondo is now dictating instead of Scholes and he is also holding the midfield instead of Makelele. That's changing for the worse IMO, Round or Square, I don't care.

 

[Moby]

About Gio's team, I agree that having Desailly in midfield with Campbell in defense isn't his best option. Like others I also anticipated him partnering Desailly with Kohler and keeping the same midfield. Specially as Balu pointed out Desailly's ability to track Totti in most places he's bound to operate.

 

[antohan]

Redondo is the best DM in his team, not Makelele.

We know you want Redondo babies Aldo. We'll have to disagree.

 

[Moby]

It hasn't fallen apart. It's working differently, you said it yourself: Redondo is now dictating instead of Scholes and he is also holding the midfield instead of Makelele. That's changing for the worse IMO, Round or Square, I don't care.

Do you really believe Makelele given his skillset is a great counter to Gio's team? Not saying Redondo is perfect either but surely he's better suited to it than Makelele? If TITO had someone like Gattuso it would have been understandable to add that mobility and determination with the work rate to close down all those AMs, but Makelele isn't the player at all to counter that, IMO and would have been much worse for him.

 

[Theon]

Jesus Christ

I can't believe what I'm reading about Redondo. Feck me.

 

[Moby]

We know you want Redondo babies Aldo. We'll have to disagree.

So you actually believe Makelele is a better DM? They're different style of players but c'mon, you are overrating Makelele like the Sky did.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Wait what? Desailly is now man-marking Totti when he drops deep and still helping Davids against Scholes, Vieria and Redondo? There's no way, he has time for Totti here, Totti is Campbell's and Kohler's job. No way around that.

I said(or at least intended to say, I'm not really focused) that he most certainly not man marking Totti, I said he's smart enough to know better not to leave the midfield exposed. He will crowd the area that Totti will move into.

 

[Thisistheone]

We are going to have to agree to disagree with the Redondo issue. I fecking love this side. The mdifield, the cente backs, Maldini-Cafu on the flanks, Totti as false 9 and Stoichkov up front! Love it

 

[Theon]

We are going to have to agree to disagree with the Redondo issue.

You shouldn't have to disagree with it, it's complete and utter nonsense.

It seems to me that because the guy was so exceptional on the ball he's being perceived as some sort of joke defensively. It's insanity.

 

[Thisistheone]

You shouldn't have to disagree with it, it's complete and utter nonsense.

It seems to me that because the guy was so exceptional on the ball he's being perceived as some sort of joke defensively. It's insanity.

See my Roberto Carlos post. Same thing. Because Carlos was so good going forward, he gets seen as a weak left back defensively. Work it out, cos I can't?

I didn't know anyone who viewed Makelele as a better DM than Redondo, until today.

 

[Moby]

As for the game, the disjoint in Gio's team is an issue as of now for me. However he has the firepower to bury the chances they get against Ferrara and Montero who are a good CB pair but would struggle versus Romario imo.

For me it's basically TITO having most of the ball and dominating the game with chances being created but Gio's defense with Desailly shielding them should be able to cope with most of it while the other way round is the opposite.

Leaning towards TITO as Gio's attack is relying on individual brilliant a tad more than I would like it to be.

 

[antohan]

Let's not go down that road of being classy, please.

You know what you wrote before editing. And edited because you know it was out of order.

All I've done here from the start is point out three things I thought were wrong. My major beef with Gio got fixed (Desailly should be in defence though IMO, and have kept saying that).

My major beef with you is still there:

• I thought Scholes was brilliant in your setup, he was one of the highlights so far. Now he is no longer dictating the play.
• Totti also was a highlight, but with Scholes now reverted to more of an AM/bombing job I wonder if he isn't more of a striker here now. Everything Scholes is doing now Totti was already doing for me.
• Makelele was doing a brilliant job shielding the defence, a defence that I rate but needs shielding when facing the best striker in the draft and one with what is kryptonite to Ferrara and Montero EXPLOSION over five yards.

I don't think shoehorning Redondo was worth it at that cost. Not at all. If you played him ahead of Vieira it would be more a case of relative contribution from them two, but the way you shoe-horned him as holder and playmaker has completely changed the side and personally I don't think it was for the better.

 

[Theon]

See my Roberto Carlos post. Same thing. Because Carlos was so good going forward, he gets seen as a weak left back defensively. Work it out, cos I can't?

It's even worse than that.. I mean it's Redondo for god sake. You would have thought he'd be immune to silly stuff like this.

Antohan actually called Makelele a better DM. Incredible.

 

[antohan]

So you actually believe Makelele is a better DM? They're different style of players but c'mon, you are overrating Makelele like the Sky did.

Redondo is the better player and midfielder, Makelele the better DM and more effective at breaking up play and preventing dangerous situations (i.e. the final pass to Romario being on).

 

[Thisistheone]

• Makelele was doing a brilliant job shielding the defence

You actually had a pop at Makelele last match, labelling him "limited" or something along those lines.


It's a little bit like the Deco issue in round one. It took you two games to finally see that him and Scholes could play together.

 

[Moby]

Redondo is the better player and midfielder, Makelele the better DM and more effective at breaking up play and preventing dangerous situations (i.e. the final pass to Romario being on).

That's narrowing it down to Makelele's convenience a lot. And exactly, the final pass is not the danger here as much as the movement and pace in Gio's attack is which Makelele is completely vulnerable against. He'd be bypassed frequently if he was here, again not saying Redondo is not going to be, he probably would be as well which is why I said earlier that Vieira's defensive shift would be a lot more effective in this game. If Gio had someone like Zidane, then yes surely Makelele could have been considered but not against Rivaldo, Nedved and Hagi.

 

[antohan]

I didn't know anyone who viewed Makelele as a better DM than Redondo, until today.

You would have preferred Redondo on Zidane ahead of Claude Makelele? Really?

 

[Pippa]

He hasn't been perceived like that though, in reality antohan was right with his original comment about Redondo. He's not the type of sitting midfielder because he has the playmaking instinct, and it always led him to move forward (like Lúcio in defence).

He'd play with runners on either side of him or with Helguera beside him, but he was not always the deepest midfielder.

Your team is built around Totti, obviously, with great individuals all in attack, starting from the fullbacks. I think Makélélé provides the better platform for the rest of your team to thrive on, in a better way than Redondo, and I think that's what antohan was trying to say.

And I think that Makélélé is perfect for that, supporting the defence, and he regularly got the better of Rivaldo from 1999-2002 when they came up against each other.

 

[Gio]

Rivaldo v Redondo

It's sacreligous on the Caf, especially a Caf which swooned and lifted its skirt over the great Redondo's Old Trafford show in 2000, to question the impeccability of the midfielder. However today he's coming up against two players who have previous in getting the better of him. Rivaldo did it regularly in Spain and built a reputation as the best player in the world off the back of it through his ability to turn over Madrid and other top teams in the biggest matches of all. That's no slight on Redondo, just a realisation that Rivaldo is capable of winning a game like this against a midfielder like that as he has done many times previously.

 

[antohan]

You actually had a pop at Makelele last match, labelling him "limited" or something along those lines.

You mean this "having a pop"? I'm sure most managers would love me having a pop like this all the time...

I'm not a huge Makelele fan, I don't like having a limited player anchoring the midfield, it's just a deformation I've grown used to.

That said, if in drafts you could get away with what Real could get away with on the back of Makelele...

We would all be going "if Makelele picks up Bastürk, who is on Ballack? Zidane? And the White Brazilian is tearing a new one into Solari".

Didn't work like that though.

It's a little bit like the Deco issue in round one. It took you two games to finally see that him and Scholes could play together.

You really have a problem with open-minded reading comprehension in context. As said, Theon is rubbing you the wrong way.

Deco wasn't the right player in your first game, he was fine once you had Makelele and not De Rossi holding, while facing a lighter midfield and not a diamond. It wasn't just me but plenty of people telling you the Mascherano switch was crucial in your first game.

Different games, so different things work, go figure.

 

[Thisistheone]

"I'm not a huge Makelele fan, I don't like having a limited player anchoring the midfield, it's just a deformation I've grown used to."

For someone who's not a Makelele fan, you sure are giving him the big one in this game.

And please stop bringing Theon into this and attempting to make things personal. You need to relax.

 

[antohan]

That's narrowing it down to Makelele's convenience a lot.

No, it's narrowing it down to what I think is the job at hand. See the quoted post below, every single one of my instincts is anti-Makelele, but I can tell when he is the man for a job and ever since he joined Tito's midfield I could see he was perfect for it and let the rest of them get on with doing what they did best.

He'd be bypassed frequently if he was here, again not saying Redondo is not going to be, he probably would be as well which is why I said earlier that Vieira's defensive shift would be a lot more effective in this game. If Gio had someone like Zidane, then yes surely Makelele could have been considered but not against Rivaldo, Nedved and Hagi.

I don't think Redondo does any better than Makelele, not at all. I agree Vieira is a good one for this game. It's not like I just picked this up, i said it during reinforcements, the only reason I could see for Tito to pick Redondo was to stop Gio having him. He would be immense for him. His midfield is crying out for someone like him.

For Tito? He wouldn't look out of place on the bench. You can argue pros and cons with Vieira and we may never reach a consensus. But this? His spine was Makelele, Scholes and Totti, with one single inclusion he has messed with every single one of them. It's hugely disruptive and I don't buy it being an improvement.

 

[antohan]

For someone who's not a Makelele fan, you sure are giving him the big one in this game.

And please stop bringing Theon into this and attempting to make things personal. You need to relax.

You are the one who needs to stop assuming there's personal stuff in it. From the very first post I pointed three things out, my biggest beef with Gio was dealt with, yours hasn't. I can see you refuse to reconsider it, which is fine by me, but don't complain when I persist on pointing out why it is a feck up. You keep saying stuff like "I'm getting killed for playing Redondo, FFS".

No, you are getting called out for shafting your entire spine in one go. You did it, no one forced you to.

 

[Thisistheone]

Sorry @Gio , getting completely sucked into arguements with anto.

Agree that Rivaldo is very capable. A world class player. Him retiring yesterday was sad news. In this game though, such a tight match, with a galaxy of modern greats scattered across the pitch, he's going to have to hope that his team-mates can get him the service he needs. This is where I hope my mdfield can cause you problems.

It's a tight one right now though.

 

[Moby]

No, it's narrowing it down to what I think is the job at hand. See the quoted post below, every single one of my instincts is anti-Makelele, but I can tell when he is the man for a job and ever since he joined Tito's midfield I could see he was perfect for it and let the rest of them get on with doing what they did best.



I don't think Redondo does any better than Makelele, not at all. I agree Vieira is a good one for this game. It's not like I just picked this up, i said it during reinforcements, the only reason I could see for Tito to pick Redondo was to stop Gio having him. He would be immense for him. His midfield is crying out for someone like him.

For Tito? He wouldn't look out of place on the bench. You can argue pros and cons with Vieira and we may never reach a consensus. But this? His spine was Makelele, Scholes and Totti, with one single inclusion he has messed with every single one of them. It's hugely disruptive and I don't buy it being an improvement.

Yeah exactly, against Gio's attack neither makelele nor Redondo is a perfect fit so I don't get the obsession with Makelele here. He shields the defense well but his limitations would be exposed by the three AMs Gio have. So why not have someone who would add a lot more to the midfield battle specially as TITO seems to be playing on the frontfoot. Given Gio is sitting back and looking to absorb TITO's attack you can do with the playmaking ability Redondo brings, with Scholes returning to his early career #10 role, specially here as TITO lacks a proper number 9 who can bang in goals.

I don't think it is disruptive, it isn't perfect surely but neither is the setup with Makelele. That's my only point here.

 

[Thisistheone]

You are the one who needs to stop assuming there's personal stuff in it. From the very first post I pointed three things out, my biggest beef with Gio was dealt with, yours hasn't. I can see you refuse to reconsider it, which is fine by me, but don't complain when I persist on pointing out why it is a feck up. You keep saying stuff like "I'm getting killed for playing Redondo, FFS".

No, you are getting called out for shafting your entire spine in one go. You did it, no one forced you to.

See, it's posts like this that really spoilt the whole thing. "Getting called out for shafting your spine" ..Really? Come off it.

I've swapped Makelele for Redondo and you seem to think it's embarrassing.
Remember when Gio was beating you and you tagged all the Arsenal fans into the thread to get Bergkamp votes? Now That was embarrassing.

 

[antohan]

He hasn't been perceived like that though, in reality antohan was right with his original comment about Redondo. He's not the type of sitting midfielder because he has the playmaking instinct, and it always led him to move forward (like Lúcio in defence).

He'd play with runners on either side of him or with Helguera beside him, but he was not always the deepest midfielder.

Your team is built around Totti, obviously, with great individuals all in attack, starting from the fullbacks. I think Makélélé provides the better platform for the rest of your team to thrive on, in a better way than Redondo, and I think that's what antohan was trying to say.

And I think that Makélélé is perfect for that, supporting the defence, and he regularly got the better of Rivaldo from 1999-2002 when they came up against each other.

Thanks Pippa, that was the point really.

Get it Tito? This from a Real Madrid fan. Go figure.

I'll let you get on with it, there's a lot more to this game than just this. I think it's the critical feck up at your end though, I like the rest of the side and have actually been a groupie throughout.

Preferred Scholes playmaking and Makelele sitting, nothing particularly hard to understand, I thought.

 

[Balu]

I'm a bit confused now, didn't Anto suggest to play Makelele and Redondo and bench Vieira? Why is it all about Redondo or Makelele? I'm not sure you need Vieira here. There is a point in there, that Scholes' role now is different to before and I'm not sure I like it.

 

[Theon]

He'd play with runners on either side of him or with Helguera beside him, but he was not always the deepest midfielder.

That is very fair Pippa and not at all overboard. It also touches on why Vieira would be completely perfect for Redondo, there aren't many in the draft better to pair him with - he has those legs and that pressing, but he was never comfortable being the deepest for either Arsenal or France.

But yeah, Redondo certainly isn't a marker like Makelele or as disciplined, but he provides so much more in possession from that position whilst still being solid - more solid than a lot are giving him credit for. Personally I'm not convinced it would be a huge issue even if he had a weaker partner in midfield than Vieira.

 

[Thisistheone]

A groupie? Yeah right, you've voted for me once in the whole tournament. Wouldn't call that a groupie.

 

[Gio]

It's effectively half-time in this match so I'm going to make a change:

SIMEONE ON FOR CAMPBELL

Desailly moves back into defence with the freedom to track Totti into the hole when required. Bergomi stays tight to occupy any vacant space. A fresh-legged Simeone joins the fray and whose all-roundedness will support the rest of his midfield five in taking a slightly more positive approach. Sol strops off the park in a huff, calling the manager "a racist jock bastard".

 

[Balu]

A groupie? Yeah right, you've voted for me once in the whole tournament. Wouldn't call that a groupie.

He was a groupie for my Cruyff team in the last draft as well and never voted for me, so you're lucky .

 

[antohan]

See, it's posts like this that really spoilt the whole thing. "Getting called out for shafting your spine" ..Really? Come off it.

I've swapped Makelele for Redondo and you seem to think it's embarrassing.
Remember when Gio was beating you and you tagged all the Arsenal fans into the thread to get Bergkamp votes? Now That was embarrassing.

And there you are making it personal. Again, like last page calling me an ididot and stuff. Classy.

You changed the DM, the playmaker, and your "false nine" now finds Scholes playing an advanced role.

That's what I'd call DICKING AROUND WITH YOUR SPINE.

BTW, no one seemed to have a problem when I tagged all of them in my first game, being 10 votes up. Go look it up, I did, I wanted their feedback on some of the tripe being said about Bergkamp. Shame they never commented.

 

[Thisistheone]

I'm a bit confused now, didn't Anto suggest to play Makelele and Redondo and bench Vieira? Why is it all about Redondo or Makelele? I'm not sure you need Vieira here. There is a point in there, that Scholes' role now is different to before and I'm not sure I like it.

Vieira is that box to box player I desperatey needed. He allows both Redondo and Scholes to perform to their level, imo.

Scholes isn't being real AM or support striker. It's just that he has more freedom to break forward now compared to when he played with Deco etc.

Roma 2007 with Totti in a false 9 really benefitted from runners from deep, playing it into Totti's feet so he could turn and play them in - Scholes would be great there, so would Vieira.

We still have the passing Scholes. I hope people don't think we've lost that now just because he can get forward more? 90s Scholes could still pass and control things in a midfield 2.