Redcafe Sheep Draft Final - Gio vs Thisistheone

[Thisistheone]

Some thoughts on the game

1.) The midfield battle in this game will be won by Scholes-Redondo-Vieira. Davids and Desailly won't be able to win a 3 v 2 battle against such elite players. Rivaldo won't help out defensively at all so it really does become an area of control for our side.

2.) With that in mind, Totti is going to get excellent service and distribution. Allowing him to excel and get on the ball enough to seriously influence the match. With his exceptional passing, Suarez and Stoichkov really do become incredibly dangerous and I can see a couple of goals from either man. They're perfect for this set-up.

3.) Campbell-Kohler-Goram is not unbreachable by any stretch. And one of the things that made Kohler such a great centre back was his man-marking. That is obsolete in this match with Totti being a false 9. There is no one for Kohler to constantly stick to, thus removing his biggest strength.

4.) The side has a crazy amount of goals in it. Scholes - 155 goals. Totti has over 250 goals to his name, Stoichkov over 300, Suarez is a consistant scorer, 25 goals in 28 games this season. These guys WILL get opportunities during the game, considering their quality and the midfield controlling proceedings.


And still the main man in the side, from day one of the draft:

Totti is currently the second highest all-time goalscorer in Serie A with 232 goals - an incredible achievement considering Totti has never played as a typical striker, instead controlling Roma's play from deeper positions, stacking up assists and destroying opponents with his creative passing.

A wonderful player - this side gets the absolute best out of Totti.


Arrico Sacchi
"He is one of the greatest players I have ever seen."

Trapattoni
"Every player has some genius, but there's only one Van Gogh, and there is nobody like Totti."

 

[Gio]

Hmm I'm not convinced that Totti is going to get the better of either of my central defenders, nor can I see Suarez doing anything of note against Bergomi, while Stoichkov is well marshalled by the Brehme/Kohler axis.

 

[Gio]

Romario v Montero/Ferrara

Two great Serie A defenders go head to head with the standout goalscorer in the draft. While Ferrara and Montero would have loved a physical duel with Christian Vieri, they will be less keen on coming up against a penalty-box predator whose five yard acceleration burst is unmatched. Our counter-attacking tactics will also ensure that TITO's team come out, bringing Ferrara and Montero high up the park which will be seriously dangerous against the sheer pace of Romario.

 

[Thisistheone]

Like I mentioned though, one of Kohler's biggest assests was his marking and he won't be able to do that here. Which is the beauty of a false 9.

The Sol Campbell-Kohler-Goram axis is just not THAT great in my eyes. And with the amount of goals Totti, Stoichkov, Suarez and Scholes have in their lockers, there is a big chance of them getting joy in front of goal here.

 

[antohan]

Was waiting for the swap to happen, It is very close but I think TITO needed one of EITHER Viera or Redondo with Makalele holding. I think both is overkill.

Redondo looks completely stranded and pointless to me. Classic case of throwing a big name onto a teamsheet.

 

[antohan]

Just fantasizing about my diamond here:

It looks horrendous

 

[crappycraperson]

I think the point about Redondo which anto made is valid. Not because he can't play the role Makelele does, ofcourse he can. But would his other attributes be really required in TITO's set up? You already have two CMs in scholes and Vieira who would be making runs from midfield. Neither would need him for playmaking duties with Scholes and Totti in there. He won't be out of place in the formation at all, it is just that it is a bit of overkill. Makelele was perfectly fine with the role he was playing here, covering the back two, would have provided excellent cover for full backs going forward as well.

It is funny both Gio and TITO actually have not used their replacement well. Dessailly is not going to swing any votes either, I actually thought Gio would play him alongside Kohler and keep Simone in there.

 

[antohan]

It's important to remember that Redondo is a Defensive midfielder who dictated things from deep. He's played behind the likes of Seedorf. Vieira is at his best doing the box to box role. Before this game it was Scholes who was my playmaker, but with Redondo coming in, doing that from deeper, Scholes becomes more of his 90's self, getting goals. Safe in the knowledge there is the brilliance of Redondo behind.

Mmmm, that's interesting, so it's an advanced Scholes... I don't think the likes of Rivaldo/Hagi/Nedved is Redondo's cup of tea, Makelele really would be far far more effective, but it makes more sense if Redondo is being asked to take the reins to free up Scholes.

 

[antohan]

@Thisistheone and basically everybody else, why no one commented on my formation for TITO with Viera-Redondo behind Scholes? Am I the only one who thinks that looks better?

It probably is a better representation of what he is actually doing. My concern right now is where that leaves Totti, with Scholes playing a more advanced role he is no longer the same Totti we've see throughout. I'd prefer a striker now.

 

[Thisistheone]

Mmmm, that's interesting, so it's an advanced Scholes... I don't think the likes of Rivaldo/Hagi/Nedved is Redondo's cup of tea, Makelele really would be far far more effective, but it makes more sense if Redondo is being asked to take the reins to free up Scholes.

I think too much is being made of the midfield. I mean, it's Redondo. The 3 of them will win the midfield battle against Gio's 2 of Davids--Desailly. So no one should get too bogged down with Redondo & vote for Gio on that basis. But yes, Redondo free's up Scholes to become the 90's version who would grab goals.

It's important to remember as well, that Scholes played like this with Cantona in the side. Similar to Totti in the way he could drop in the hole. Stoichkov and Suarez making runs in behind. (Cole and Giggs?) It worked, and Totti & Scholes are intelligent enough footballers to make it work also.

"Paul Scholes my lord, he scores goals. Paul Scholes, he scores goals!"

 

[antohan]

Don't think it makes much of a difference on a formation graphic. It doesn't change their roles. Redondo is the DM, Vieira is in a in a box to box role. Scholes is getting forward and scoring goals, hopefully

It does actually. If Redondo is a holding midfielder dictating from deep he will indeed be alongside Vieira and suddenly Scholes is a different kettle of fish here, as is Totti. If you actually displayed it like that in the formation graphic it would go against you, and I'm pretty sure you know it. No?

I don't think you have improved but worsened as a result. I'm not Makelele's greatest fan, as I said in the last game, but you can't argue with how effective he was. There really was no need to take the reins off Scholes, none at all.

 

[Cutch]

Redondo looks completely stranded and pointless to me. Classic case of throwing a big name onto a teamsheet.

Agree with this. Makelele has got to be playing surely.

 

[Gio]

Like I mentioned though, one of Kohler's biggest assests was his marking and he won't be able to do that here. Which is the beauty of a false 9.

If anything it just makes Kohler's job easier, he can mark when Totti's close by, and pass him on when he's not. He's proven at the absolute highest level and has dealt with far greater strikers than Totti during his time.

 

[Thisistheone]

It does actually. If Redondo is a holding midfielder dictating from deep he will indeed be alongside Vieira and suddenly Scholes is a different kettle of fish here, as is Totti. If you actually displayed it like that in the formation graphic it would go against you, and I'm pretty sure you know it. No?

I don't think you have improved but worsened as a result. I'm not Makelele's greatest fan, as I said in the last game, but you can't argue with how effective he was. There really was no need to take the reins off Scholes, none at all.

I disagree with you completely.

We all know the 3 midfielders roles in the side so it doesn't make a huge difference if I move them slightly. I've already made several posts on the issue. I'd rather now move along and focus on my first point on this page which is my side controlling the midfield battle with a 3 v 2. Scholes, Vieira, Redondo vs Davids and Desailly.

 

[Thisistheone]

Agree with this. Makelele has got to be playing surely.

I would see it as a negative step to put Makelele on. Handing the inititive to Gio rather than taking control of things ourselves. Redondo offers the defensive skillset as well as the added bonus of his passing and playmaking ability.

This is starting to get a touch of the Roberto Carlos about it now. Just because he was so good going forward, he became a liability at the back when infact he wasn't. But someone could have an inferior left back and he'd been seen as the more solid option because he doesn't offer anything in attack.

Same here with Makelele - Redondo. Redondo is the better player. He shouldn't get shot down so blatantly because he had other skills.

 

[antohan]

3.) Campbell-Kohler-Goram is not unbreachable by any stretch. And one of the things that made Kohler such a great centre back was his man-marking. That is obsolete in this match with Totti being a false 9. There is no one for Kohler to constantly stick to, thus removing his biggest strength.

Gio has been well and truly tactically hoodwinked here, Kohler is apparently useless because he doesn't have to mark anyone. It's a bit like saying "Stob has Yahsin, the best keeper of all time, but if I don't shoot at goal he won't have the chance to show it!". Mwahahaha.

 

[Balu]

Dessailly is not going to swing any votes either, I actually thought Gio would play him alongside Kohler and keep Simone in there.

Same here. I thought Gio wanted a centerback who is comfortable to follow Totti into midfield, so Desailly made a lot of sense. Seeing him in midfield really surprised me.

By the way, I think that Kohler as a covering centerback gets a bit underrated here. He played in a back 5 most of his career and was brilliant covering for Brehme on the left and for Reuter on the right. He doesn't need to man-mark a striker to be outstanding, he's great here against wide forwards making runs inside.

 

[crappycraperson]

Same here. I thought Gio wanted a centerback who is comfortable to follow Totti into midfield, so Desailly made a lot of sense. Seeing him in midfield really surprised me.

By the way, I think that Kohler as a covering centerback gets a bit underrated here. He played in a back 5 most of his career and was brilliant covering for Brehme on the left and for Reuter on the right. He doesn't need to man-mark a striker to be outstanding.

Yes. To suggest that if he won't be man marking anyone, he won't be as good is absurd.

 

[Thisistheone]

Gio has been well and truly tactically hoodwinked here, Kohler is apparently useless because he doesn't have to mark anyone. It's a bit like saying "Stob has Yahsin, the best keeper of all time, but if I don't shoot at goal he won't have the chance to show it!". Mwahahaha.

You're clueles. Where did i say Kohler is useless? Quote me.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Went for Gio. TITO I love your team but I just think you're system won't work as well as Gio's.

 

[antohan]

It is funny both Gio and TITO actually have not used their replacement well. Dessailly is not going to swing any votes either, I actually thought Gio would play him alongside Kohler and keep Simone in there.

Aye, I'm baffled as to why Campbell is playing. Gio's right, he was a great defender, but Desailly was better and Simeone was the better midfielder IMO, certainly when you already have a Davids next to him. I guess people have this view of Simeone as some sort of midfield grunt when in fact he was quite a force going forward.

 

[Cutch]

I would see it as a negative step to put Makelele on. Handing the inititive to Gio rather than taking control of things ourselves. Redondo offers the defensive skillset as well as the added bonus of his passing and playmaking ability.

He's the perfect man to try and do a job on Gio's main creative threat. Redondo and Scholes can then concentrate on trying to run the game ahead of him.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Same here. I thought Gio wanted a centerback who is comfortable to follow Totti into midfield, so Desailly made a lot of sense. Seeing him in midfield really surprised me.

By the way, I think that Kohler as a covering centerback gets a bit underrated here. He played in a back 5 most of his career and was brilliant covering for Brehme on the left and for Reuter on the right. He doesn't need to man-mark a striker to be outstanding, he's great here against wide forwards making runs inside.

It is funny both Gio and TITO actually have not used their replacement well. Dessailly is not going to swing any votes either, I actually thought Gio would play him alongside Kohler and keep Simone in there.

I actually hated that decision at first, but grew to like it. Just like Jones plays for us in big games as a DM, as David Luiz for Chelsea, or Ramos in El Classico sometimes or many other examples, that's as realistic as it gets in big games, and it's a decision that worked well for so many teams over the years, I can see it working here too.
And it definitely won't do harm to his attacking side who is so fluid it doesn't need another midfielder to help them.

 

[antohan]

I think too much is being made of the midfield. I mean, it's Redondo. The 3 of them will win the midfield battle against Gio's 2 of Davids--Desailly. So no one should get too bogged down with Redondo & vote for Gio on that basis. But yes, Redondo free's up Scholes to become the 90's version who would grab goals.

Your battle isn't against Davids and Desailly, it's getting the ball off Rivaldo, Hagi and Nedved, not those two. Makelele is proven as arguably the best in the business to almost do that single-handedly, Redondo isn't, he was a great package, but not the one required here.

 

[Moby]

I agree with TITO, pushing Vieira back hardly makes any difference. He's gonna function the same way in both the diagrams and so will Redondo.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Aye, I'm baffled as to why Campbell is playing. Gio's right, he was a great defender, but Desailly was better and Simeone was the better midfielder IMO, certainly when you already have a Davids next to him. I guess people have this view of Simeone as some sort of midfield grunt when in fact he was quite a force going forward.

Campbell was final-worthy if he was white.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I don't hate Redondo but mainly because Gio already gave away the midfield battle. In terms of breaking down an organized defense I can't think of a better defensive midfielder than Redondo actually.

However what I don't like is Vieira. He is far too linear in his box to box play and I just don't think that is a benefit at all. For me the player who should have been benched is Vieira. His passing style doesn't in any way benefit Scholes/Redondo.

Redondo-Scholes would have been ridiculous together and I can't think of a way to improve up on it. Adding another midfielder who can further improve their play is close to impossible.

Preferably I'd have added Savicevic in front of that duo as he then adds the burst pace and dribbling which is lacking in Redondo/Scholes at that kind of level.

Redondo and Scholes would both be absolutely insane from that deep position. You can't stress them off the ball, they just need one run from Stoichkov to turn a midfield battle/counter to a goal.

 

[Thisistheone]

Went for Gio. TITO I love your team but I just think you're system won't work as well as Gio's.

No worries I understand it's tough to vote in games like these.

 

[Balu]

I actually hated that decision at first, but grew to like it. Just like Jones plays for us in big games as a DM, as David Luiz for Chelsea, or Ramos in El Classico sometimes or many other examples, that's as realistic as it gets in big games, and it's a decision that worked well for so many teams over the years, I can see it working here too.
And it definitely won't do harm to his attacking side who is so fluid it doesn't need another midfielder to help them.

You do that if your midfield is too leightweight, not when you have Davids and Simeone in the squad?

 

[antohan]

I disagree with you completely.

We all know the 3 midfielders roles in the side so it doesn't make a huge difference if I move them slightly. I've already made several posts on the issue. I'd rather now move along and focus on my first point on this page which is my side controlling the midfield battle with a 3 v 2. Scholes, Vieira, Redondo vs Davids and Desailly.

And Hagi, Rivaldo and Nedved. Why are they suddenly not midfielders? They played in midfield throughout their careers.

Yes, you can argue Rivaldo won't battle much without the ball... but your problem is when he has it (or they for that matter), not what he does or doesn't do when you are in possession.

 

[Thisistheone]

@Annahnomoss , I'm getting killed here for playing a more defensive side than that. If I'd lined up with just Scholes-Redondo you lot would have my balls on a skewer!

Vieira is vital to that midfield. He brings the power, a true box to box player which i was lacking in the early rounds.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

I agree with TITO, pushing Vieira back hardly makes any difference. He's gonna function the same way in both the diagrams and so will Redondo.

No they won't, it's not like formation sheets in pre-matches presented by Sky, it's all you got about the team plus the "tactics".
If they're starting position will be like I suggested, they will be able to cover defensively against Hagi-Rivaldo-Nedved better.

 

[crappycraperson]

I don't hate Redondo but mainly because Gio already gave away the midfield battle. In terms of breaking down an organized defense I can't think of a better defensive midfielder than Redondo actually.

However what I don't like is Vieira. He is far too linear in his box to box play and I just don't think that is a benefit at all. For me the player who should have been benched is Vieira. His passing style doesn't in any way benefit Scholes/Redondo.

Redondo-Scholes would have been ridiculous together and I can't think of a way to improve up on it. Adding another midfielder who can further improve their play is close to impossible.

Preferably I'd have added Savicevic in front of that duo as he then adds the burst pace and dribbling which is lacking in Redondo/Scholes at that kind of level.

Redondo and Scholes would both be absolutely insane from that deep position. You can't stress them off the ball, they just need one run from Stoichkov to turn a midfield battle/counter to a goal.

That formation would have zero chance winning against Gio. That front 4 is comfortably worse than Gio's for starters.

 

[Moby]

He's the perfect man to try and do a job on Gio's main creative threat. Redondo and Scholes can then concentrate on trying to run the game ahead of him.

I won't say he's perfect. With TITO's players, man marking isn't a tactic let alone against Gio who will have so much movement and interchanging. You need mobility there as someone said, agreed, but Makelele is far from the solution for that.

The minute I saw the line up I assumed Vieira would be doing that job of closing down and putting pressure on whoever is trying to get the ball forward, he has the heart and determination for it. His game against Spain in the World Cup 06 displays that perfectly where he took out the entire midfield of Fabregas, Alonso and Xavi like a man possessed.

I guess if some people are put off but Vieira positioned ahead and hence assuming he won't be doing much defensively maybe TITO can redraw the diagram but it seems insane to me because Vieira's primary job here is to win the midfield battle and prevent Gio's players from getting into any sort of rhythm.

 

[antohan]

I would see it as a negative step to put Makelele on. Handing the inititive to Gio rather than taking control of things ourselves. Redondo offers the defensive skillset as well as the added bonus of his passing and playmaking ability.

This is starting to get a touch of the Roberto Carlos about it now. Just because he was so good going forward, he became a liability at the back when infact he wasn't. But someone could have an inferior left back and he'd been seen as the more solid option because he doesn't offer anything in attack.

Same here with Makelele - Redondo. Redondo is the better player. He shouldn't get shot down so blatantly because he had other skills.

If you had to build a side and had a choice of Redondo, Scholes or Makelele you would pick Redondo first (unless you are incredibly biased). The reason you would do that is he is a better all-round player than either of the others. However, when it comes to pulling strings Scholes is the better player and when it comes to an effective defensive performance protecting the back four against creative greats Makelele shits on Redondo.

You got rid of the specialist DM and took the dictating off the better playmaker. It's manic, it really is.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

You do that if your midfield is too leightweight, not when you have Davids and Simeone in the squad?

Or when you want to counter a opposition tactic. Now when he does that, it limits Scholes-Totti combination and makes Totti dropping deep much harder because the area will be crowded.

 

[antohan]

Same here. I thought Gio wanted a centerback who is comfortable to follow Totti into midfield, so Desailly made a lot of sense. Seeing him in midfield really surprised me.

By the way, I think that Kohler as a covering centerback gets a bit underrated here. He played in a back 5 most of his career and was brilliant covering for Brehme on the left and for Reuter on the right. He doesn't need to man-mark a striker to be outstanding, he's great here against wide forwards making runs inside.

Indeed. I find it really strange he is just any old CB now with a false 9 on the pitch. If anything, in most other games what was consistently highlighted was his covering and ability to deal with someone like Stoichkov cutting in. He is a standout in this game, and so would Desailly next to him particularly when Bergomi allows for him to come forth and pick up Totti.

 

[Balu]

Or when you want to counter a opposition tactic. Now when he does that, it limits Scholes-Totti combination and makes Totti dropping deep much harder because the area will be crowded.

Quite the opposite actually. Simeone would still be there and if Desailly as a centerback followed Totti's movement, Totti couldn't overload the midfield. Now Totti can operate between the lines and either Desailly takes care of him, which opens a gap for Scholes/Vieria or one of the centerbacks will be dragged out of defense and both are nowhere near as suited to that job as Desailly would be.

 

[Thisistheone]

You got rid of the specialist DM and took the dictating off the better playmaker. It's manic, it really is.

It really isn't. You're acting like the side has fallen apart now that Fernando Redondo has come into it. Amazing. It really is.

 

[Thisistheone]

I won't say he's perfect. With TITO's players, man marking isn't a tactic let alone against Gio who will have so much movement and interchanging. You need mobility there as someone said, agreed, but Makelele is far from the solution for that.

The minute I saw the line up I assumed Vieira would be doing that job of closing down and putting pressure on whoever is trying to get the ball forward, he has the heart and determination for it. His game against Spain in the World Cup 06 displays that perfectly where he took out the entire midfield of Fabregas, Alonso and Xavi like a man possessed.

I guess if some people are put off but Vieira positioned ahead and hence assuming he won't be doing much defensively maybe TITO can redraw the diagram but it seems insane to me because Vieira's primary job here is to win the midfield battle and prevent Gio's players from getting into any sort of rhythm.

Yep, spot on Aldo. I really don't feel the need to re-draw a graphic again just to help show Vieira being what Vieira was. I've explained what Vieira brings. This is why we have write ups and not just graphics.