Redcafe Sheep Draft - Cutch vs sullydnl & NM

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
Really close matchup this. Cutch leads by one. two great teams and quite balanced.

@Balu I don't see the similarity to Dortmund, I do get the intentional tactic similarity but if you look at Dortmund (at their last year's best) in compared to Cutch's side you lack the most important player - Mario Gotze. Mandieta can create but not as creative as Gotze was, different types of players, and also no player in the Gondugan/Sahin role. I agree the front three is quite similar(and Cutch's just better). So that's basically the problem, they can make up for some of the lack of creativity with pressure and stuff, but they lack basic creativity to win this, and I think it plays straight to sully's hands

Edit: Cutch leads by two!
 
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3 now.

Went with Cutch. It's a close as feck game but Romario against Nadal and Gamarra is a big battle that Cutch will win and that screams goals.
 
It's a close one alright. I like both teams, some nice partnerships and the 22 on the park are as well positioned as they could be. My only concerns are that Romario would prefer a truer playmaker involved and the frequently made point about how Nadal and Gamarra will deal with him. That said Gamarra is often under-rated while a Nadal v Puyol debate would be interesting.
 
VivaJanuzaj said:
Really close matchup this. Cutch leads by one. two great teams and quite balanced.

@Balu I don't see the similarity to Dortmund, I do get the intentional tactic similarity but if you look at Dortmund (at their last year's best) in compared to Cutch's side you lack the most important player - Mario Gotze. Mandieta can create but not as creative as Gotze was, different types of players, and also no player in the Gondugan/Sahin role. I agree the front three is quite similar(and Cutch's just better). So that's basically the problem, they can make up for some of the lack of creativity with pressure and stuff, but they lack basic creativity to win this, and I think it plays straight to sully's hands

Edit: Cutch leads by two!
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Yet all the Dortmund fans told me in the summer, that he wasn't that important, Lewandowski was the standout player, Reus on the wing way more clinical, especially in the big games against teams that wanted to take control. They even told me that they would improve now, because Götze wasn't perfect for the pressing game and pressing & transition makes up for the lack of creativity. They miss Götze against smaller teams, who park the bus. Not really against the top teams, well in theory at least ;).
 
Got to agree with Balu. This need for a play maker is incredibly over-emphasized and quite misinterpreted in my eyes. In a high pressing game, the defensive system is also the play maker as it opens up huge space which are easy to pass in to, or when your front three wins the ball - you already have a great chance.

With a high pressing defense it doesn't really matter if the midfielders wins the ball back - the pass to the front three will almost always be rather easy. The need for a play maker becomes a factor when you want to unzip organized defenses.

For me Romario is a weird inclusion in a high pressing defense. He won't be putting in the work needed defensively to form a perfect press by any means but at the same time Sully wants to be countering as well but is playing possession football.
 
Balu said:
Yet all the Dortmund fans told me in the summer, that he wasn't that important, Lewandowski was the standout player, Reus on the wing way more clinical, especially in the big games against teams that wanted to take control. They even told me that they would improve now, because Götze wasn't perfect for the pressing game and pressing & transition makes up for the lack of creativity. They miss Götze against smaller teams, who park the bus. Not really against the top teams, well in theory at least ;).
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Jealous that is :)
But seriously, I agree that Reus is more important in that play but Stoichkov is a perfect fit there as the semi winger semi inside forward, and the same with Luis Enrique who isn't as classic winger as Blasickowsky(or however you write it), but that hard working right wing who can aid the midfield battle when tucking in. But as Annah said, romario won't do the pressing Lewa does and with both Gotze and Gondugan/Sahin roles, and again that's the problem for me, you can compensate lack of creativity by pressing but that's a huge lack
 
Just catching up here. Thanks for the feedback so far, some interesting opinions.

Have Spains record scorer a frustrated figure on the bench here. Looks like he isn't going to get on on this occasion.

Some Uruguayan bloke is giving me dogs abuse from the stands too. Going to have to get him evicted.


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Gio said:
It's a close one alright. I like both teams, some nice partnerships and the 22 on the park are as well positioned as they could be. My only concerns are that Romario would prefer a truer playmaker involved and the frequently made point about how Nadal and Gamarra will deal with him. That said Gamarra is often under-rated while a Nadal v Puyol debate would be interesting.
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Theres rumours that Rivaldo is keen to sign up. He's not happy under his current manager apparently, some Davy Moyes type wannabe
 
Cutch said:
Just catching up here. Thanks for the feedback so far, some interesting opinions.

Have Spains record scorer a frustrated figure on the bench here. Looks like he isn't going to get on on this occasion.

Some Uruguayan bloke is giving me dogs abuse from the stands too. Going to have to get him evicted.


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Dogs abuse? I think you picked the wrong tactics, others agree. I agree in the chosen tactics there are elements of Dortmund, but my issue there is whether Dunga and Silva are good fits.

They were usually afforded far more space and time on the ball. Seeing as they would recover the most ball, it seems to me relevant that they would often lose it immediately after due to poor execution under pressure.
 
antohan said:
Dogs abuse? I think you picked the wrong tactics, others agree. I agree in the chosen tactics there are elements of Dortmund, but my issue there is whether Dunga and Silva are good fits.

They were usually afforded far more space and time on the ball. Seeing as they would recover the most ball, it seems to me relevant that they would often lose it immediately after due to poor execution under pressure.
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I'm only messing you eejit
 
Anyway, went with Sully here. There's nothing much to explain there seeing as everyone plays a familiar role in a suitable formation.

Claims of possession and outnumbering I put down to confusion. I thought he would have a hard time breaking Cutch down, but a high line against sullys front three with their and Fab's through balls... sounds manic to me with Puyol and Helguera.
 
Agree with Anto to be fair. I don't think you nailed the tactics in this Cutch. I don't see the need for the high line/high pressure - you'd be much better off with a pure counter-attacking style but with a regular line and pressure that starts when they enter your side of the pitch.

I just think that Sully did the very same mistake but to a greater extent. He is playing possession football with counter-attacking/direct players.
 
antohan said:
Anyway, went with Sully here. There's nothing much to explain there seeing as everyone plays a familiar role in a suitable formation.

Claims of possession and outnumbering I put down to confusion. I thought he would have a hard time breaking Cutch down, but a high line against sullys front three with their and Fab's through balls... sounds manic to me with Puyol and Helguera.
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I don't think he's played to Kaka and Litmanen's strengths and their message seems to be to work across the line rather than try to get in behind. Not worried about RvN from far out, would have been worried about him finding room closer to goal if i invited pressure on. With Fabregas operating in extremely congested territory and Helguera usually available to cover, i think we can keep Van the man pretty quiet.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Agree with Anto to be fair. I don't think you nailed the tactics in this Cutch. I don't see the need for the high line/high pressure - you'd be much better off with a pure counter-attacking style but with a regular line and pressure that starts when they enter your side of the pitch.

I just think that Sully did the very same mistake but to a greater extent. He is playing possession football with counter-attacking/direct players.
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If i said i'm just going to sit back and soak up pressure, i'm leaving myself very open to Kaka running at Dani Alves who would be very uncomfortable with being told to sit back in line with the rest of the defenders. I don't think it would be playing to my back 4s strengths in this particular game.
 
Phew. That was a hard game. Didn't like the draw at all at the time. Knew it would be a close one. Good contest Sully/NM, enjoyed the debate.


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The 2 goalscorers celebrate at the end.


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The 2 midfield rocks lift the trophy.


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Alves and Puyol acknowledge a good high line. lolz
 
Congrats Cutch.

What a mess of a game. Can we all agree you don't need to control possession to win at football?
 
Cutch said:
If i said i'm just going to sit back and soak up pressure, i'm leaving myself very open to Kaka running at Dani Alves who would be very uncomfortable with being told to sit back in line with the rest of the defenders. I don't think it would be playing to my back 4s strengths in this particular game.
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Kaka is one of the most narrow top AM's in Brazils history. He ran almost in a straight line centrally and the width was provided by the strikers stretching out on each side which meant the CB's were dragged apart from each other. Very hard to defend against and Litmanen and RVN will fill those roles well.

In terms of providing width Kaka is one of the least likely AM's to provide it by any means unless it is in terms of running in to space. He will be no means challenge an organized defense and then dribble past the defenders time and time again.

Litmanen is also very narrow in his style albeit I'd argue less so. So if you defended deep you'd play in to the hands of RVN, but completely shut out Kaka and Litmanen from using their devastating counter-attacks/direct styled football.

Sure your defense won't be at their best, but that is far less important than letting Kaka and Litmanen play their absolute favorite kind of football - with RVN in front of them. If Sully had said he'd be on the counters I'd have voted him instantly as both of you guys are more suited for it.

Sully's only way to score against a low organized defense is with chance-balls/Crosses to RVN. May result in a goal - but whoever of you would just soak up pressure and counter would score more than 1 comfortably.
 
antohan said:
Congrats Cutch.

What a mess of a game. Can we all agree you don't need to control possession to win at football?
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One of the biggest tactical messes I've seen. I've rarely seen both teams play pretty much the exact opposite of what I thought they would before. Like seeing someone picking up the entire Barcelona team then playing on counters.
 
Congratulations @Cutch

Told NM we were the underdogs before the game anyway, you deserved the win (probably). :)
 
antohan said:
Congrats Cutch.

What a mess of a game. Can we all agree you don't need to control possession to win at football?
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You were right when you pointed to confusion on my part. I meant to establish that we were secure, safe and superior in midfield but that somehow morphed into a posession game I wasn't intending to play. Fog of war type scenario, I rushed in to argue against his plan without thinking he might be playing into my hands anyway.
 
So.. I think confused argument cost us this game...

I actually thought we had a fairly good chance to nick it.

Great fun @sullydnl

Congrats @Cutch
 
NM said:
So.. I think confused argument cost us this game...

I actually thought we had a fairly good chance to nick it.

Great fun @sullydnl

Congrats @Cutch
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Yeah, I lost track of what I actually wanted to argue, this is definitely on me. We had built such a nice team too...

Ah well, it was fun anyway. Thanks NM!

Thanks to @AldoPaine18 too, this has been quality so far.
 
Don't take it too hard Sully. These drafts are really damn hard in terms of the in-game arguments. It is really easy to be dragged in to an argument, then say one sentence wrong or just poorly phrased and you are sent home packing. It is a learning experience and for being your first draft you did really well.

Every manager has different strengths and weaknesses too, some just constantly build damn good teams - some are absolute brilliant in the match-thread - others are incredible in the tactical department etc. I don't think any one manager has all those traits nailed down which is what adds a lot of depth to it.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Congrats @Cutch

@sullydnl @NM Great game. I really liked your team and set up. Harsh that you had to face a tough opponent early on. This round seems to oscillate between a tie-breaker and a landslide. Hope you still stick around for later rounds!
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we will be around. If Cutch gets a little balance in his midfield/defense, he wins the draft IMO
 
I love how we mad eStoichkov and Enrique a non-factor btw. If I was Cutch, I would be banging their drum all day long. Fantastic players!!
 
Polaroids has the best individual players to win this by quite a margin.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Congrats @Cutch

@sullydnl @NM Great game. I really liked your team and set up. Harsh that you had to face a tough opponent early on. This round seems to oscillate between a tie-breaker and a landslide. Hope you still stick around for later rounds!
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Definitely sticking around, this is way too entertaining to skip on now that I'm invested.

Agree with Annahnomoss, Polaroid definitely has the best individual players. If Cutch sorts out midfield his front line is lethal though...
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Not sure on that.

Pol's Redondo/Zidane
Gio's Davids/Simeone/Rivaldo
Pippa's Irwin/Giggs
VivaJanuzaj's Laudrup/Nedved

are still around, but I'd accept he has a cracking side with a real shot at winning!
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I think it will be down to Gio, Pol and Cutch. Purely because they have secured what is most scarce. As we upgrade they will get even better while others don't improve much at all as sometimes what they need simply won't be available at all.
 
Cutch said:
Theres rumours that Rivaldo is keen to sign up. He's not happy under his current manager apparently, some Davy Moyes type wannabe
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Well we're both Scottish Rangers fans and are crossing our way to goal. If only Moyes could call on Michel and Vieri...

The playmaker stuff is a wee bit overstated, I'm as big a fan as any of Mendieta on the forum.
 
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