Redcafe Sheep Draft - Cutch vs sullydnl & NM

Who will win based on all the players at their peak?

  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
This game is going to be very back and forth and neither team will dominate possession by any means. I think Sully will win possession solely for the reason that his build-up is slightly slower than Cutch's is but that is neither a positive or a negative. We are talking about a 53-47 kind of marginal win that means absolutely nothing at all.

Kaka/Litmanen and RVN aren't possession players and no matter how much you desire to keep possession they will receive the ball and try to create something quite direct with it. Stoichkov/Enrique/Romario function exactly the same way.

The question is who will be more likely to score from this back and forth game. Will Stoichkov/Romario and Enrique be more dangerous with their dribbling, pace and goal threat or will it be Kaka/Litmanen/RVN with their narrow linear runs towards the goal.

Not sure why every game is about dominating possession when there is no advantage unless your team has it as a style. If Kaka/Litmanen/RVN lose possession then it means they are either getting to chances constantly that ends up with corners/shots/dangerous passes.

If you however dominate possession completely that just means they can't find any gaps in the opponents defense so they completely disregard their natural instincts and pass the ball around with no effect.
 
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Cutch said:
We both have 11 men on the pitch. We're both lined up in very similar formations. The difference is you've been cute (tempted to say sneaky) with your positioning of Kaka and Litmanen. If anyone says you've a lack of width you'll say they're playing wide, and now you're suggesting that because they'll both roam that you'll dominate control of the middle aswell.

The only real difference is what we're asking of our two 'wide' forwards. I want mine to make use the space thats out wide and make runs into the box where you want yours to work across the pitch. Yours are working lateral, mine are longitudinal i guess.

You keep banging on about creativity through the middle but thats not how i'll be tackling this game as i've said repeatedly. You need your creative players because you're playing through the eye of a needle, through the congested centre of the pitch but i don't. My players can pass a ball, and they can keep a ball which is enough for me. Dunga and Mendieta are both creative but mainly they'll be looking to switch to the wings to the overlapping fullback or slide rule balls in the channels behind the opposition fullback to Stoitchkov and Luis Enrique. You don't have to be terribly creative to do that, just able to be accurate with your passing, and those both have the range. It helps that my players have the movement to make space as well, whereas the likes of Litmanen and RvN will need more accurate balls in to feet for you, and don't make the same runs in behind.
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Ha, what you call cute I call clever tactics.

Here's the real difference between the teams. Your lack of creativity centrally and the way you have your wide forwards set means you can only attack out wide. Whereas our abundant creativity and drifting wide forwards mean we can go centrally or out wide.

Best of all, the fact that you are keeping your width means we will dominate in midfield. There is absolutely no way the midfield with the most creativity, skill and numbers isn't going to control the match. This means we get to dictate the game and pick apart whichever set of weaknesses you decide to expose. If you stay out wide we continue to dominate centrally and cut your wide players out of the game. Alternatively, you go narrower to compete in midfield and we get to see Cafu and Leonardo rip into your fullbacks.

Furthermore, your ability to counter attack is also negated by your lack of creativity in midfield. The only way forward is through your fullbacks, who will be coming up against better fullbacks in Cafu and Leonardo, not to mention both Makelele and Essien reinforcing our defence.
 
sullydnl said:
Ha, what you call cute I call clever tactics.

Here's the real difference between the teams. Your lack of creativity centrally and the way you have your wide forwards set means you can only attack out wide. Whereas our abundant creativity and drifting wide forwards mean we can go centrally or out wide.

Best of all, the fact that you are keeping your width means we will dominate in midfield. There is absolutely no way the midfield with the most creativity, skill and numbers isn't going to control the match. This means we get to dictate the game and pick apart whichever set of weaknesses you decide to expose. If you stay out wide we continue to dominate centrally and cut your wide players out of the game. Alternatively, you go narrower to compete in midfield and we get to see Cafu and Leonardo rip into your fullbacks.

Furthermore, your ability to counter attack is also negated by your lack of creativity in midfield. The only way forward is through your fullbacks, who will be coming up against better fullbacks in Cafu and Leonardo, not to mention both Makelele and Essien reinforcing our defence.
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Seriously? Have you kicked two of his players off the pitch, so that he has to play with 9 players now? If not, none of this makes sense to me, sorry.
 
I think I should probably remind everyone of the brilliance of Litmanen while I'm here:



129 goals in seven years for Ajax. 26 goals in 54 European matches (still their top goalscorer in Europe). Came third for the Ballon d'Or in 1995.

Frank Rijkaard: "Dennis Bergkamp was brilliant for Ajax but the best No.10 we ever had was Jari".

RvN certainly won't be shouldering the goalscoring burden on his own.
 
sullydnl said:
I think I should probably remind everyone of the brilliance of Litmanen while I'm here:



129 goals in seven years for Ajax. 26 goals in 54 European matches (still their top goalscorer in Europe). Came third for the Ballon d'Or in 1995.

Frank Rijkaard: "Dennis Bergkamp was brilliant for Ajax but the best No.10 we ever had was Jari".

RvN certainly won't be shouldering the goalscoring burden on his own.
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Good player with the right sort of setup built around him, but not sure if he's got that here with being told to start on the right but roam as much as you like but watch you don't get in the other playmakers road.

Basically, im not sure if he and Kaka suit eachother in the same team, or whether you really needed both.
 
Balu said:
Seriously? Have you kicked two of his players off the pitch, so that he has to play with 9 players now? If not, none of this makes sense to me, sorry.
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Cutch said:
I think he must have because he keeps talking about this number advantage through the middle right where i've built a brick wall, and it doesn't make any sense to me either.
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Dunga and Silva are on Kaka and Litmanen, right? This leaves Essien and Fabregas competing with Mendieta. That's where we get our advantage in the centre (aside from the obvious advantage in skill and creativity there as well).

Obviously this means Cutch has an advantage elsewhere, namely out wide. He really needs to make the most of this advantage as he can only attack out wide, his entire gameplan rests on this. Yet I'm confident enough as a) Cafu and Leonardo are brilliant full backs, b) as we're dominating in midfield he'll be most limited to counter attacks, c) his lack of creativity in midfield further hinders his ability to counter attack and d) we'll have Makelele and Essien bolstering our defence.
 
sullydnl said:
Dunga and Silva are on Kaka and Litmanen, right? This leaves Essien and Fabregas competing with Mendieta. That's where we get our advantage in the centre (aside from the obvious advantage in skill and creativity there as well).

Obviously this means Cutch has an advantage elsewhere, namely out wide. He really needs to make the most of this advantage as he can only attack out wide, his entire gameplan rests on this. Yet I'm confident enough as a) Cafu and Leonardo are brilliant full backs, b) as we're dominating in midfield he'll be most limited to counter attacks, c) his lack of creativity in midfield further hinders his ability to counter attack and d) we'll have Makelele and Essien bolstering our defence.
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This is wrong. I answered that post about an hour ago.
 
sullydnl said:
Dunga and Silva are on Kaka and Litmanen, right? This leaves Essien and Fabregas competing with Mendieta. That's where we get our advantage in the centre (aside from the obvious advantage in skill and creativity there as well).
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I really hate those number comparisons in midfield, it's just wrong. Dunga and Silva with Mendieta are controling the space, not man-marking one player and doing nothing as long as their mark doesn't have the ball. You control that area defensively through movement, cutting off passing angles, working as a team. Those 3 players really are a brick wall like Cutch said. It's fecking difficult to play through and it isn't solved by saying I have an additional player, because it's a crowded area in which you can't use him.
 
Cutch said:
This is wrong. I answered that post about an hour ago.
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You mean pushing Helguera up on to one of my attacking mids, thus letting Dunga compete in midfield?

That would make midfield more competitive, true. Unfortunately that leaves Puyol handling RvN on his own (I'm happy with that) while your other centre back is dragged about by our AMs. Kaka v Helguera would be very one sided.

If you then move your left back in tighter to the centre you leave more room for Cafu (one of the greatest attacking fullbacks of all time) to take advantage. It also stops you countering as effectively.
 
Something you may want to consider

Club and country links
We probably all compare fantasy teams differently, but i rate familiarity and proven pedigree perhaps higher than most. Maybe you lose the beauty of imagining how a fantasy partnership would work but i like pointing to evidence to show how they already have.

I tried to pick where possible players that had played with eachother for club and country to some degree of success. In some cases this meant picking lesser quality players than those available, but thats the price to pay.

Make of it what you wish but the following is for each player the number of team mates and durations spent with eachother for club and country. Obviously the durations on their own don't mean an awful lot and its the performances on the pitch that count, but i think i meet that criteria aswell.

Basically there are no strangers here.


Santiago Canizares
Spain (5) - 9 years with Sergi, 6 years with Puyol, 4 years with Helguera, 3 years with Luis Enrique, 3 years with Mendieta
Real Madrid (1) - 2 years with Luis Enrique
Valencia (1) - 8 years with Mendieta

Dani Alves
Barcelona (1) - 6 years with Puyol

Carlos Puyol
Spain (6) - 6 years with Canizares, 6 years with Puyol, 4 years with Helguera, 2 years with Sergi, 2 years with Luis Enrique, 2 years with Mendieta
Barcelona (4) - 6 years with Alves, 3 years with Sergi, 5 years with Luis Enrique, 1 year with Mendieta

Ivan Helguera
Spain (5) - 4 years with Canizares, 2 years with Sergi, 4 years with Puyol, 2 years with Luis Enrique, 2 years with Mendieta
Valencia (1) - 1 year with Canizares

Sergi
Spain (5) - 8 years with Canizares, 2 years with Puyol, 2 years with Helguera, 8 years with Luis Enrique, 3 years with Mendieta
Barcelona (4) - 2 years with Puyol, 8 years with Luis Enrique, 5 years with Stoitchkov, 2 years with Romario

Dunga
Brazil (2) - 12 years with Romario, 8 years with Mauro Silva

Mauro Silva
Brazil (2) 8 years with Dunga, 8 years with Romario

Gaizka Mendieta
Spain (5) - 3 years with Canizares, 3 years with Sergi, 2 years with Helguera, 2 years with Puyol, 3 years with Luis Enrique.
Valencia (1) - 8 years with Canizares
Barcelona (2) - 1 year with Puyol, 1 year with Luis Enrique

Hristo Stoitchkov
Barcelona (3) - 5 years with Sergi, 2 years with Luis Enrique, 2 years with Romario

Romario
Brazil (2) - 12 years with Romario, 8 years with Mauro Silva
Barcelona (2) - 2 years with Sergi, 2 years with Stoitchkov

Luis Enrique
Spain (5) - 9 years with Canizares, 9 years with Sergi, 2 years with Puyol, 2 years with Helguera, 3 years with Mendieta
Real Madrid (1) - 2 years with Canizares
Barcelona (4) - 6 years with Sergi, 5 years with Puyol, 1 year with Mendieta, 2 years with Stoitchkov
 
Balu said:
I really hate those number comparisons in midfield, it's just wrong.
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Yep. Not just in midfield. It happens all over the pitch in these drafts. Reality is things are much more fluid.
 
Balu said:
I really hate those number comparisons in midfield, it's just wrong. Dunga and Silva with Mendieta are controling the space, not man-marking one player and doing nothing as long as their mark doesn't have the ball. You control that area defensively through movement, cutting off passing angles, working as a team. Those 3 players really are a brick wall like Cutch said. It's fecking difficult to play through and it isn't solved by saying I have an additional player, because it's a crowded area in which you can't use him.
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The point is we don't have to play through the middle. All we have to do is establish control in midfield. We're able to change it up by allowing our AMs to drift out wide our letting our excellent fullbacks attack out wide. We have the creativity, movement and versatility do that. Cutch doesn't have that luxury.
 
sullydnl said:
The point is we don't have to play through the middle. All we have to do is establish control in midfield. We're able to change it up by allowing our AMs to drift out wide our letting our excellent fullbacks attack out wide. We have the creativity, movement and versatility do that. Cutch doesn't have that luxury.
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What do you mean by control? You're facing a high line with heavy pressing and a team that can execute that incredibly well. You either get through and have a chance to score, or you loose the ball and need to make sure, that you aren't overrun in transition? I don't think you have the players to control possession against his pressing and let him chase shadows here. So what exactly are you controling?
 
Great team from cutch, as usual.

Feel bad voting against Litmanen though, one of my favourite players growing up.
 
Balu said:
What do you mean by control? You're facing a high line with heavy pressing and a team that can execute that incredibly well. You either get through and have a chance to score, or you loose the ball and need to make sure, that you aren't overrun in transition? I don't think you have the players to control possession against his pressing and let him chase shadows here. So what exactly are you controling?
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a) Do you really think there's all that much danger of us being overrun the way we're set up? B) I guess by control I mean security. We will certainly dominate possession imo but beyond that I don't think Cutch's midfield poses any kind of threat to us while ours does pose a threat to him.
 
sullydnl said:
a) Do you really think there's all that much danger of us being overrun the way we're set up? B) I guess by control I mean security. We will certainly dominate possession imo but beyond that I don't think Cutch's midfield poses any kind of threat to us while ours does pose a threat to him.
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I actually think that too much possession will hurt you, because it will be in an area on the pitch where you can't do a lot with the ball, while he will be much stronger in transition than he is when he has to build up from deep. Let him have the ball, he lacks creativity, so you can defend by cutting the supply to his attackers. Let him press against you and one misplaced pass by Makelele means all hell breaks loose, transition can replace creativity and all of a sudden Mendieta is good enough to provide assists for his forwards.

He's playing a fecking high line and you have Kaka and Litmanen in the team, and you want to keep the ball? Really? Let those guys run towards goal time and time again, if they don't get on the end of a pass, big deal, his defenders winning the ball back doesn't help him win the game, that's when he struggles.
 
sullydnl said:
You mean pushing Helguera up on to one of my attacking mids, thus letting Dunga compete in midfield?

That would make midfield more competitive, true. Unfortunately that leaves Puyol handling RvN on his own (I'm happy with that) while your other centre back is dragged about by our AMs. Kaka v Helguera would be very one sided.

If you then move your left back in tighter to the centre you leave more room for Cafu (one of the greatest attacking fullbacks of all time) to take advantage. It also stops you countering as effectively.
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Players move all the time. The centre half (Helguera in this case) does as he see's fit. The back 4 will be trying to nudge up and to keep compact. Everyone else will be harassing, pressing relentlessly when i don't have the ball.

If Kaka and Litmanen both drift inside as you want them to do you're making it very difficult for them to influence the game (see graphic assuming in this case Essien is on the ball). Theres no number advantage here, just congestion and the defending players move around as required.

In the graphic in this instance i'd expect Mendieta will go to the ball. Depending on the off the ball runs which your attackers make (which won't be as good as mine make), here Dunga will be marking Fabregas, and M Silva on Kaka. Still a couple free for Litmanen depending on what he does or to deal with something else unexpected. I've even allowed for Alves being on no-one, and i've still enough numbers back (as it is i would still expect him to press the ball).

 
I'm away tomorrow, so I had to vote early. Sorry, sully, I really like your team, I'm such a huge fan of Litmanen but Cutch has such a strong core and all the connections in the team with the perfect tactics, I'd say he took an early lead here and I can't see you coming back to turn the game around.

/edit:
I think the post above sounds a bit too angry, sorry for that. The whole midfield number discussion in my game might have had a slight influence on that. But I hope you get my point?
 
Balu said:
I actually think that too much possession will hurt you, because it will be in an area on the pitch where you can't do a lot with the ball, while he will be much stronger in transition than he is when he has to build up from deep. Let him have the ball, he lacks creativity, so you can defend by cutting the supply to his attackers. Let him press against you and one misplaced pass by Makelele means all hell breaks loose, transition can replace creativity and all of a sudden Mendieta is good enough to provide assists for his forwards.

He's playing a fecking high line and you have Kaka and Litmanen in the team, and you want to keep the ball? Really? Let those guys run towards goal time and time again, if they don't get on the end of a pass, big deal, his defenders winning the ball back doesn't help him win the game, that's when he struggles.
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The plan isn't to try and kill him with possession or to constantly hurt him through the middle. As I keep saying, we can attack him out wide just as easily. Midfield is only really relevant in that, by suffocating him there, we force him to rely on a totally one dimensional attack.
 
Cutch said:
Players move all the time. The centre half (Helguera in this case) does as he see's fit. The back 4 will be trying to nudge up and to keep compact. Everyone else will be harassing, pressing relentlessly when i don't have the ball.

If Kaka and Litmanen both drift inside as you want them to do you're making it very difficult for them to influence the game (see graphic assuming in this case Essien is on the ball). Theres no number advantage here, just congestion and the defending players move around as required.

In the graphic in this instance i'd expect Mendieta will go to the ball. Depending on the off the ball runs which your attackers make (which won't be as good as mine make), here Dunga will be marking Fabregas, and M Silva on Kaka. Still a couple free for Litmanen depending on what he does or to deal with something else unexpected. I've even allowed for Alves being on no-one, and i've still enough numbers back (as it is i would still expect him to press the ball).

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Why calculator?

Anyway, they don't have to drift inside all the time. They can drift wide, just as we can attack through our fullbacks as long as we cover for them. Read our OP, NM specifically pointed out that Leonardo and Cafu would be playing their natural games. With your lack of penetration through the middle your attack becomes quite predictable, whereas we're able to vary it as the situation demands. Whatever you do you're going to open space somewhere and we have the players to take advantage. You can't do the same as you're limited to attacking through your wide players.
 
sullydnl said:
The plan isn't to try and kill him with possession or to constantly hurt him through the middle. As I keep saying, we can attack him out wide just as easily. Midfield is only really relevant in that, by suffocating him there, we force him to rely on a totally one dimensional attack.
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I honestly don't think so. I've got 4 beasts out there that will run back and forward all game like terriers. You have 2 fullbacks that are quality, but Litmanen isn't going to do anything out wide and Kaka drifting in from the left will be straight into Mauro Silva territory, which i wouldnt wish on anyone.
 
sullydnl said:
Why calculator?
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essiencalc.jpg


Was one year he said Chelsea would beat United by 5 points because he had 'done the maths'. Everyone took the piss out of him then.
 
Cutch said:
I honestly don't think so. I've got 4 beasts out there that will run back and forward all game like terriers. You have 2 fullbacks that are quality, but Litmanen isn't going to do anything out wide and Kaka drifting in from the left will be straight into Mauro Silva territory, which i wouldnt wish on anyone.
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Nah, with your lack of attack through midfield Essien and Makelele are able to cover for our full backs quite handily. That means Leonardo (who is an attacking midfielder in another guise) and Cafu (capable of dominating his side practically on his own) are going to get a lot of joy against your fullbacks, both of whom are relatively vulnerable defensively. Beyond that, Litmanen and particularly Kaka aren't the non entities out wide that you'd like them to be.
 
Cutch said:
essiencalc.jpg


Was one year he said Chelsea would beat United by 5 points because he had 'done the maths'. Everyone took the piss out of him then.
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Ah right, way before I was on the caf I think.
 
Balu said:
I'm away tomorrow, so I had to vote early. Sorry, sully, I really like your team, I'm such a huge fan of Litmanen but Cutch has such a strong core and all the connections in the team with the perfect tactics, I'd say he took an early lead here and I can't see you coming back to turn the game around.

/edit:
I think the post above sounds a bit too angry, sorry for that. The whole midfield number discussion in my game might have had a slight influence on that. But I hope you get my point?
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:lol: That's fine, I hadn't picked up on any anger at all.
 
sullydnl said:
Nah, with your lack of attack through midfield Essien and Makelele are able to cover for our full backs quite handily. That means Leonardo (who is an attacking midfielder in another guise) and Cafu (capable of dominating his side practically on his own) are going to get a lot of joy against your fullbacks, both of whom are relatively vulnerable defensively. Beyond that, Litmanen and particularly Kaka aren't the non entities out wide that you'd like them to be.
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Am i down to 9 players again. As i've said a few times its up to Luis Enrique and Stoitchkov to track the fullbacks if they go forward. My fullbacks are basically spare if they need to close up the defense, pick up an off the ball runner, or to double up on closing the ball down.
 
Cutch said:
Am i down to 9 players again. As i've said a few times its up to Luis Enrique and Stoitchkov to track the fullbacks if they go forward. My fullbacks are basically spare if they need to close up the defense, or pick up an off the ball runner.
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There's no way Enrique and Stoichkov are handling my full backs on their own and I'm no more down to 9 men than you are, Cafu and Leonardo won't be left isolated. Which is also true when your fullbacks go forward I guess, except my fullbacks are better than yours. :)
 
sullydnl said:
There's no way Enrique and Stoichkov are handling my full backs on their own and I'm no more down to 9 men than you are, Cafu and Leonardo won't be left isolated. Which is also true when your fullbacks go forward I guess, except my fullbacks are better than yours. :)
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Well yeah, but thats why its good to have a man behind them spare. Cafu as good as he is isn't going to be storming past both Stoitchkov and Sergi, and is going to get little support on his wing from Jari Litmanen. Dani Alves will therefore be the most dangerous fullback on this pitch, with an attacking output as good for a fullback as any i've seen in the last 20 years.
 
Cutch said:
Well yeah, but thats why its good to have a man behind them spare. Cafu as good as he is isn't going to be storming past both Stoitchkov and Sergi, and is going to get little support on his wing from Jari Litmanen. Dani Alves will therefore be the most dangerous fullback on this pitch, with an attacking output as good for a fullback as any i've seen in the last 20 years.
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I can't see your fullback being all that dangerous with Essien and Makelele helping out my defence. We'll be well covered, which is a shame for you as you're really depending on your fullbacks.

Anyway, I'm off for a few hours. Hopefully NM will come on and do a better job of tearing your team to pieces.
 
sullydnl said:
I can't see your fullback being all that dangerous with Essien and Makelele helping out my defence. We'll be well covered, which is a shame for you as you're really depending on your fullbacks.

Anyway, I'm off for a few hours. Hopefully NM will come on and do a better job of tearing your team to pieces.
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I thought Essien would be so busy contributing to this numbers advantage you supposedly have in midfield than to be worried about my fullbacks aswell. :D

See you later mate.
 
Fergus' son said:
Ok, but for the rest of his career he was a cm, right?
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His best football at Valencia (1998-2001) came almost exclusively from that the right. Lazio tried to push him inside as a central midfielder and I'm sure you know how that turned out. ;)
 
Pippa said:
His best football at Valencia (1998-2001) came almost exclusively from that the right. Lazio tried to push him inside as a central midfielder and I'm sure you know how that turned out. ;)
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In one of his best seasons he played in the centre with Gerard, and Farinos deeper, with Angulo out right, Kily Gonzalez out left and Claudio Lopez up top. Sometimes they played a diamond and he was on the right of that, but more involved infield where he could dictate than on the wing.
 
This was prime Mendieta for me, the brains of the operation in the centre with 2 DMs Milla and Farinos in behind, in a 6-0 thrashing of Real Madrid circa 99.

Claudio Lopez around this time was incredible aswell. My favourite player in the world at the time.

 
Pippa said:
In 2000-01 he played on the right of a 4 man midfield.
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He usually played on the right with licence to roam into the centre to dominate. Basically an inside-right, or tucked-in wide player. Hard to represent that on a formation graphic without people querying where he's supposed to be playing.
 
What season was that exactly?

Anyways, you mention in the profile that he was best midfielder by UEFA twice, in 1999-00 and 2000-01. So let's just say that's his peak performance years where his peak level should be measured, because in 1998-99 Ranieri insisted on the sweeper formation but when Cúper arrived in 1999-00 he insisted on the 4-4-2, which was much more effective.

But then Mendieta played almost every big match from the right side. I say "big matches" because even though I've seen him play, I'll never remember what happened against Racing or Numancia, etc. But in every high-profile match (Real Madrid, Depor, Barcelona) in La Liga he played on the right side of a 4 man midfield. He came inside often, but he was always a right midfielder. Even at the Champions League level, against Real Madrid, Barcelona, Lazio, he played from the right position - Farinós and Gerard played in the middle. At the international level at EURO 2000, he played from the right except for the match against Slovenia (left), coming inside but still maintaining his spot on the side.

The next season was the same thing, except he played against Arsenal in the middle. Almost all of the bigger matches he played came from the side of midfield. So when Valencia refused to let him go to Madrid, Lazio picked him up expecting him to perform in the centre of midfield regularly. He was a spectacular failure in Italy, utterly shocking. Booed off the pitch, mocked on the field, etc. His worst performance came in the biggest match of Lazio's season, the derby against Roma. I'm almost certain it was the match where he taunted Totti, saying he didn't deserve the Ballon d'Or. Needless to say, Totti was the best player on the pitch, Mendieta the worst...

So that's what leads me to say that he should be a right midfielder, if you look at his peak level at Valencia. He became a regular central midfielder in Italy and failed. He came back to La Liga a year later and was never the same player. Later on in his career he was suspected of doping like many of Valencia's players who flopped once leaving the club.

Edit: Almost basically what Gio said
 
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