How many am i up against here?
Redcafe Sheep Draft - Cutch vs sullydnl & NM
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Well yeah, he's busy being a defender, doing what defenders do. Theres no point in me saying he'll be following Van Nistelrooy all around the pitch too. If he's available to cover Puyol he'll do that, if he's to cover a run from midfield he'll do that instead. If he's to cover for a fullback he'lll do that instead.
Cutch stated that RVN wasn't the type of striker to hurt you from outside the box, Januzaj countered with a video of a one in a million goal against a rubbish side with rubbish defenders. I never said RVN wouldn't have ANY joy against Cutch's CBs, just that he isn't likely to score a similar goal to the Fulham one. RVN needs consistent, quality service; he's not going to slalom through the defence and score a wonder goal.
Helguera may well be the weakest CB individually, but as a pairing I think Gamarra/Nadal is worse than Helguera/Puyol.
My fullbacks won't drift inside to follow the 3 you mention, whats the point if they're straying in to Dunga-Silva, Puyol-Helguera territory. What they will do is tuck in slightly if its coming down their wing, as i alluded to in the OP, just to make a more compact back 4. That is more advisable than staying on the wing to double up defending on what is only a fullback.
Which is exactly my point. Romario is far far more likely to tear those 2 a new one than RvN is with mine.
As I see it our midfield allows us to control the game. At this point Cutch either allows us to murder him through the middle or he sacrifices his main attacking platform (fullbacks) to stop us, at which point his attack is totally neutered and we'll probably kill him out wide anyway. Either way his strike force will have a lonely time of it while his defence will be coping with some seriously heavy pressure.
Mendieta getting a wee bit underrated here
I don't think so, we've said he's a very good player. It's the balance between him, Dunga and Silva that's the problem, not their individual quality.
Dunno where to start with this post. Getting a bit silly if you think you're murdering me through the middle and out wide now.
Always is it seems. Twice the best midfielder in the Champions League 2 years in a row, dragging Valencia to 2 finals and you'd think he couldn't lace Fabregas' boots reading some of these posts.
Dunga and Mauro Silva are MORE than capable of doing a job on Kaka/Litmanen and Mendieta will make life difficult for Fabregas while RVN is having a tough time of it with two physically strong CBs. I don't think Cutch will be 'sacrificing' his fullbacks at all.
@Cutch , I've yet to decide my vote, just looking for answers from both managers before I decide, my vote is up for grabs, I'm certainly not "Against" you.
@sullydnl What's Makalele's role in this match? Will it be to aid Nadal-Gamarra against Romario? Or to Cover Mandieta when Cutch has the ball?
That's the biggest question for me.
Basically, my thoughts are that it's a question of who gets more joy - Romario against the Nadal & Gamarra or Fabregas-Kaka-Litmanen in dominating possession and feeding Ruud.
@sullydnl What's Makalele's role in this match? Will it be to aid Nadal-Gamarra against Romario? Or to Cover Mandieta when Cutch has the ball?
That's the biggest question for me.
Basically, my thoughts are that it's a question of who gets more joy - Romario against the Nadal & Gamarra or Fabregas-Kaka-Litmanen in dominating possession and feeding Ruud.
Don't know if you got it from me, I just suggested that Fabregas will excel better with the midfiedlers behind him than Mandieta will with Dunga-Silva
The likelihood of Romario having a bad day is much greather than 2 of Kaka/Fab/Litmanen having a bad day.
Also keep in mind that Kaka at his peak was unplayable.
He made Rio (best defender around according to the caf) look like a mug in 06-07
I think it's more a case of Mendieta playing an unfamiliar role, he was never the main creative force for Valencia.
You're going to lose my future vote if you keep doing this.
Eh, you could say the same about Mendieta and Romario. Keep in mind that every player in this matchup is at their peak, not just Kaka.
Also, when Kaka made United look like mugs he was playing against a injury hit defence with Heinze at centreback. Was Rio even playing? Honestly can't remember the correct lineup, I just remember that hilarious collision between Evra and Heinze which led to a Kaka goal.
By the way, that collision is only hilarious in hindsight. I was fuming at the time, fecking Heinze the useless Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime 
He skinned Rio before that for his first goal
Ok, had to make 1 of those silly graphics for this post. As you can see from it theres no need whatsoever if Cafu is attacking for Sergi in this case to drift across to follow Fabregas/Kaka/Litmanen. Theres no mismatches, and no destroying, just a defensive unit perfectly set up for when it doesn't have the ball. As i was saying Sergi would tuck in slightly to compact the defence but theres no one in serious danger of hurting me in that set up, i think its perfectly comfortable.
Make your football formation with this11.com
I think Evra was more at fault.By the way, that collision is only hilarious in hindsight. I was fuming at the time, fecking Heinze the useless Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime
I was also at San Siro for the return leg. Never seen two full backs play as badly as Heinze and Oshea did then.
This is the same situation to my other graphic in reverse with this time Sergi on the attack. This would be the setup i would expect Sully/NM to have in this situtation. I think this side is more vulnerable to these types of attacks down the wing than i will be. With enough numbers back, a wideman in close attendance as an outball and a frontman with the movement to drag defenders all over the place, i think it would be very dangerous. Of course theres always a counter attack threat when fullbacks are so attacking but i think in this case i've a side well equipped and an opposition that wouldnt quite be able to take advantage.
That didn't answer my question regarding Makelele's role
Okay, lets say Dunga and Silva are on Kaka and Litmanen. That leaves Mendieta dealing with both Fabregas and Essien? That's handing us way, way too much control. He has to make it at least competitive in midfield.
Nah mate you're ok. Appreciate the debate so far. Just a tad worried that in your case you may be underrating some of my lineup, where some of the opposition players might be a bit more easy remembered and current.
Everyone should make one of those graphics with insulting player names for the opposition. Anto is clearly in the lead so far with Lemon, Nazi and Ate orange face, but Horsehead is quite good too. 
you addressed it to suly.. I don't want to make this a 2 vs .
I'll makewon graphic later. Interviewing somebody nowEveryone should make one of those graphics with insulting player names for the opposition. Anto is clearly in the lead so far with Lemon, Nazi and Ate orange face, but Horsehead is quite good too.
Nice, looking forward to it. Didn't Canizares step on a razor blade in his bathroom or something like that, ruling him out of the WC? There's definitely an insulting nickname in there somewhere...
You have Kaka and Litmanen disguised in the graphic as wingers and now they're doing a job occupying my 2 defensive midfielders. Fair enough, if all your team are attacking through the middle in this instance you have 2 attacking fullbacks and Helguera to consider somehow in the equation. You can't simply ignore that they exist. It may be a case that Helguera pushes up onto Litmanen, with Sergi tucked in slightly as mentioned before, freeing Dunga to go to Essien/Fabregas.
This number advantage in the middle is just not going to happen, and cleverly gets us away again from where the main mismatches that decide this game will be.
That scenario you are explaining would be to my advantage if anything. Playing everything through the middle is playing into my hands where i'm compact and robust. As soon as the balls won back its being shifted out wide and attacking at pace.
Nope, we're murdering you through the middle or out wide.
If Dunga and Silva are managing Kaka and Litmanen then you've left Mendieta isolated against Fabregas and Essien. Not good.
Alternatively, Alves and Sergi get to do a defensive job they're not really suited to and that robs you of your only real creative platform. At which point Leonardo and Cafu get to attack them anyway. Also not good.
Your final option: put Puyol on RvN and leave Helguera to handle whichever of Kaka or Litmanen is free. I really hope you go with this one, Kaka would annihilate Helguera.
Seriously mate you're crazy if you're going to attempt to steamroller through me down the middle. I can think of a few other things you could try instead that might have worked, but can't believe you're going with that one.
Mendieta-Dunga-M Silva-Puyol-Helguera. Good luck with that.
Assuming Cutch is using Dunga and Silva to handle Kaka and Litmanen, that leaves Mendieta dealing with both Fabregas and Essien. Putting Makelele on him too would be overkill I think, especially as he isn't that creative anyway.
I think the Essien threat is being a bit overrated. Don't think he needs special attention really, he should be more worried about being caught forward on the counter with Dani Alves bursting down the flank unchecked.
A video of 4 of Gaizka's finest goals. Appropriate name for the video 'The Forgotten Midfielder'. In danger of being remembered more for his time at Lazio and at Middlesborough. At Valencia he was truly immense!
Looks like this will be a classic match anyway, both sides arguing their cause fiercely. Look forward to catching up on the discussions tomorrow. Enjoy.
And if you get 18 minutes of free time on your hands have a look at this for an array of ridiculous finishing. Ruud to his credit was a great finisher also (more of a poacher though), but i've always considered Romario is the best finisher i've ever seen.
Goal machine
Goal machine
I'm actually trying to be fair and not overrate some of my favorite players - Stoichkov although I do feel he's been forgotten in the debates so far!
Of course we'll dominate you in the middle. A) We'll have a number advantage there, B) we have by far the more creative, skillfull players in there, C) we have more movement and flexibility and D) we'll have more posession.
It's less that we'll steamroller you and more that you'll be strangled. Dominated in midfield, dominated in posession, no real creativity in midfield to lauch an incisive counter, heavily reliant on fullbacks doing fantastic things against better fullbacks...
I guess you disagree though.
Of course we'll dominate you in the middle. A) We'll have a number advantage there, B) we have by far the more creative, skillfull players in there, C) we have more movement and flexibility and D) we'll have more posession.
It's less that we'll steamroller you and more that you'll be strangled. Dominated in midfield, dominated in posession, no real creativity in midfield to lauch an incisive counter, heavily reliant on fullbacks doing fantastic things against better fullbacks...
I guess you disagree though.
We both have 11 men on the pitch. We're both lined up in very similar formations. The difference is you've been cute (tempted to say sneaky) with your positioning of Kaka and Litmanen. If anyone says you've a lack of width you'll say they're playing wide, and now you're suggesting that because they'll both roam that you'll dominate control of the middle aswell.
The only real difference is what we're asking of our two 'wide' forwards. I want mine to make use the space thats out wide and make runs into the box where you want yours to work across the pitch. Yours are working lateral, mine are longitudinal i guess.
You keep banging on about creativity through the middle but thats not how i'll be tackling this game as i've said repeatedly. You need your creative players because you're playing through the eye of a needle, through the congested centre of the pitch but i don't. My players can pass a ball, and they can keep a ball which is enough for me. Dunga and Mendieta are both creative but mainly they'll be looking to switch to the wings to the overlapping fullback or slide rule balls in the channels behind the opposition fullback to Stoitchkov and Luis Enrique. You don't have to be terribly creative to do that, just able to be accurate with your passing, and those both have the range. It helps that my players have the movement to make space as well, whereas the likes of Litmanen and RvN will need more accurate balls in to feet for you, and don't make the same runs in behind.