Redafe Champions League Draft - Snow v Fergus'son

Who will win based on players in their prime, team tactics, balance & bench strength?

  • Total voters
    38
  • Poll closed .

Theon

Lord of the Iron Islands
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
13,370
When considering each team players should be considered at the peak of their careers. Players are not solely judged by their Champions League performances, though this can be taken into account - for example as evidence of success at the highest level against the best opposition.

Please read below for a detailed description of each team and feel free to discuss/criticise/argue over which team has the upper-hand!

Snow said:
Tactics
Team Snow has players that know each other inside out, the most solid defense in the entire draft, a balanced midfield and 3 of the most devastating attacking players of the last 10 years. When at their peak Ronaldinho and Kaka were virtually unplayable and should be the key to victory here.

Team Fergus’son does not have the same familiarity, is devoid of any real width and the creativity needed to break down our impenetrable defence. Michael Tarnat inparticular should struggle to cope with the movement of our skilful interchangeable attackers. Our side should be able to soak up any pressure and launch devestating counter attacks with quick supply from Mendieta and 4 devestatingly quick attackers.

When considering both sets of players at their peak, there should really be only be one winner.

Player Profiles

Cech
Peak – 2004-07: Conceding 15 and 22 goals in successive premier league seasons. Kept a record 21 clean sheets in 04/05. Voted best keeper in the world in 2005. 3 times voted UEFA’s best goalkeeper.
Calming influence and brilliant shot stopper. Probably the best keeper in the world at his peak prior to receiving the terrible head injury where he hasn't been quite the same since.

Gallas
Peak – 2001-05: World class defender at his peak with 84 caps for France. Fantastic athlete, with strength, anticipation and reading of the game. Played all across the back 4 for Chelsea under Ranieri and Mourinho. Formed solid partnerships in the back 4 with Terry and Carvalho. Out and out defender who generally always won his individual battle.

Terry
Peak – 2004-09. Not the most popular chap due to his various misdemeanours but no doubting his ability as a defender. Probably more respected across Europe where he was voted 4 times into the UEFA team of the year and 3 times UEFA best defender. His individual highlight domestically was winning the PFA Player of the year in 04/05. Inspirational and brave leader who was also a significant threat in the opposition box.

Carvalho
Peak – 2003-08
Voted UEFA’s best defender in 2003/04 when winning CL with Porto. Formed a telepathic and record breaking partnership with Terry. Superb reader of the game and tackler. Also knows all the dark arts of defending.

Cole
Peak – 2002-11
Another guy that will never win any popularity contests but still pretty much accepted as the best left back of his time. 100 caps for England. A machine going forward and in defence. A model of consistency throughout his career.

Albelda
Peak – 2001-05
Valencia stalwart who was a key player in guiding the club to 2 La Liga titles, reaching the final of 2 Champions League finals and winning 1 UEFA cup. Club captain for over 10 years. Competive defensive minded midfielder and a leader.

Mendieta
Peak – 1999-2001
Inspiration of the side that reached 2 successive Champions League Finals. Voted the best midfielder in the Champions League 2 years in a row. Complete all round midfielder and technically outstanding.


Ozil
Peak – 2012 – Present
One of the most exciting young players in the world. Has already starred at the U21 European Championships and Euro 2012. Silky smooth on the ball and a strong ball carrier. Can play behind the striker or drifting in from the right as shown here to good effect.

Kaka
Peak – 2005-09
At his peak had one of the most significant impacts on the Champions League in recent times. FIFA world player of the year and Balon D’or winner in 2007. Inspired Milan to CL success that season and ended as top scorer. 3 times selected in UEFA team of the year.

A painful reminder of one of the times he tore United a new one.


Ronaldinho
Peak – 2004-07
FIFA world player of the year 2 years in a row. Considered 1 of the best players of his generation. One of the most skilful to ever play the game. His absolute very best has probably only been bettered by Messi in the last 15 years.

Produced 1 of the most memorable individual performances of recent years in a 3-0 crushing of Real Madrid in 2005.



Torres
Peak - 2007-10
Phenomenal goalscoring record for Liverpool scoring 65 in 102 league games, and considered the most dangerous forward in the world at this time. 3rd in FIFA world player of the year in 2008. Devestating pace and finishing ability and strong in the air.
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Team Snow​
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VS​
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Team Fergus'son​
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Substitution at 18-12 - Moller on for Aimar​
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Fergus' son said:
Tactics
My team is full of strong partnerships throughout, beginning with my CBs. Ayala and Samuel played with each other in the Argentine national team at various points in the 2000's, Whilst Thuram and Makelele enjoyed great success for the French national team, Makelele making it his business to cover for his full backs when they burst forward. This previous experience of playing together makes my defensive set up very solid and in tune.

Schweinsteiger and Muller are also club team mates, both have been very successful for the Bayern side. Schweinsteiger will form the engine room alongside Makelele, leaving my team with an incredibly strong central midfield. Schweinsteiger is equally adept at driving the attacking motions of his team or quelling the other sides advances. Muller, being so versatile, could tuck in if need be and help out his full back, however with Thuram on that side there will be little need, and he can concentrate on providing good support for Batistuta. Muller was top scorer at the World cup 2010 from the same position that I have deployed him in, so can provide a very genuine goal threat to supplement Batigol.

On the other side I have David Villa, one of the greats of the arguably the greatest club and national teams of all time. His goal threat is considerable, but perhaps more importantly, both he and Muller are adept at working to provide for other great goalscorers in their team, and with Batigol up front, this will be very advantageous.

Aimar provides vision and craft from the advanced midfield position, and will constantly finding the intelligent runs of his forward players and wing backs, both of whom are very capable of providing support and width whilst still being defensively sound.

Player Profiles

Pepe Reina - a safe and reliable pair of hands, Reina won the premier leagues golden glove award three years in a row from 05-08, keeping clean sheets in more than half of his first 200 games.

Micheal Tarnat -a left back and sometimes a left wing back, Tarnat was a very reliable defender who excelled at providing excellent support for his flank partner. In his first season at Bayern, he impressed so much that he kept the highly rated Lizarazu on the bench. He is tenacious, and has a fantastic shot and free kick.

Roberto Ayala - Regarded as one of the best central defenders of his generation, Ayala captained the Argentine national team for more matches (63) than anyone. He played in three World Cups and made a total 115 international appearances, with only Javier Zanetti getting more caps for Argentina.

Walter Samuel - Samuel has been regarded as one of football's toughest defenders, with teammate and Inter captain Javier Zanetti referring to him as the "hardest player" he has played with. Gifted with natural power and pace, Samuel played a key role in Inter's treble success in the 2009–10 season under José Mourinho and has accumulated over 50 caps for the Argentine national team. His strong, uncompromising style of play has earnt him the nickname Il Muro ("The Wall").

Lilian Thuram - the most capped player in the history of the France national team, and one of the twenty most capped players of all time, he is widely regarded as one of the best RBs to ever play the game, and the best defensive RB ever.

Claude Makelele - considered one of the greatest defensive midfielders of all time, so much so that many have dubbed the position 'the Makelele role'. When Real sold him and bought Beckham, this is what Zidane had to say "Why put another layer of gold paint on the Bentley when you are losing the entire engine?"

Bastian Schweinsteiger - Dubbed the "Midfield Motor", Schweinsteiger is also a superb reader of the game and has scored spectacularly due to his good positioning. He has been called "the brain" of the German national team by his coach Joachim Löw and is a key component of the treble winning Bayern team.

Thomas Muller - the most versatile and one of the most effective players in the game today, Muller was vital to the treble winning Bayern team. Müller plays as a midfielder or forward, and has been deployed in a variety of attacking roles—as an attacking midfielder, second striker, and on either wing. He has been praised for his pace, technique and composure, and has shown consistency in scoring and creating goals.

Pablo Aimar - one of the most gifted number tens of his generation, he is a fantastic playmaker, with great vision, passing and shot.

David Villa - Equally at ease as a striker or as a wing forward, Villa is one of the best and most successful players of his generation. He has played a key part in winning every trophy possible for his club and country, and is currently the leading goalscorer for the Spanish national team.

Gabriel Batistuta - he is Argentina's all-time leading goalscorer, with 56 goals in 78 national team matches, with an all-round game with clinical finishing, heading and free-kick taking abilities, he is known as one of the most complete strikers of his generation. Diego Maradona has also said that Batistuta is the best striker he has ever seen play the game.


Substitute
Andreas Moller - He was a playmaker known for his range of passing and goalscoring ability and a vital part of the success of the German national team and Dortmund during the mid 90's.
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(Snow assistant manager)
Happy enough with how Fergus' has set up. Terry will be tight to Batistuta with Carvalho picking up the pieces. Villa isn't a winger so Gallas will be picking him up mainly in central areas and should have the pace and man marking ability to deal with him. Ashley Cole has kept more tricky customers than Muller in his back pocket and due to the significant threat of Ronaldinho down that side, Muller should be pinned back for most of the match.

Makelele will no doubt have his hands full with Kaka, leaving Mendieta and Schweinsteiger free to do battle. Good player that Aimar was, he never hit a peak remotely close to Kaka's circa 2007.

At the back we have obviously the better keeper and the more reliable, proven back 4. We should be fit to keep it tight, conceding 1 at most, whilst scoring a couple at least on the break or via a Reina howler.
 
Cech > Reina

Gallas < Thuram
Terry + Carvalho > Ayala + Samuel
Cole > Tarnat

Albelda < Makelele
Mendieta = Schweinsteiger

Ozil = Muller
Kaka > Aimar
Ronaldinho > Villa

Torres < Batistuta

Think we have the better personnel in 6 positions while Fergus would have 3. More telling is that Cech, Cole, Kaka and Ronaldinho were significantly better than their opposite number in their prime.
 
Batistuta will be vital in this game. He was the best striker in the world in between Van Basten and Ronaldo and regularly tested himself against the very best defenders of the last 30 years, namely the serie A defences of the 90's. And even with his relatively smaller club, Foirentina, he has a phenomenal goal scoring record. Far better defences that Carvalho/Terry have failed to keep Batigol and it wont be any different today.

In comparison, Ayala is the best defender in this match up by some distance, and will have a relatively easy time dealing with Torres ( whose 'peak' was more of a 'purple patch' imo). The oppositions main threat is up against Thuram, the best defensive RB of all time, so that works pretty much in my favour, whilst this is what happened when my RW Thomas Muller, last came up against the combination of Cole and Terry, two goals and an assist to go with is motm performance:



Furthermore, I believe I have the stronger midfield, greater goal presence, and the better defensive team stability.
 
Fergus has a great point about Thuram/Ronaldinho.

Whilst Ronaldinho is the star player on the pitch and the biggest match winner, I can't think of a better player than Thuram in the history of the game to try and stop him.
 
Don't think you've the system best suited for getting the best out of Batistuta. Aimar in support who often flattered to decieve and rarely produced anything on any sort of big stage. Out wide theres no real threat from crosses in to the box, with the exception of maybe Tarnat. I cstruggle to think of a better pairing than Terry/Carvalho and a keeper as good as Cech to keep him out.

'Ayala is the best defender in this match up by some distance' - Doesn't really merit a reply. Ridiculous exaggeration. One time voted Europes best defender against Terry's 3.

Torres 'Purple patch' - That is a heck of a long purple patch. 3-4 seasons where he was one of the most feared strikers in the world with one of the best goals per game ratio. His career has dipped since due to a combination of many injuries and a system that doesn't get the best out of him. At his best there is no doubt that he was absolutely world class.

The England v Germany matchup you refer to. I think by that time Cole and Tery were not in their prime years, Terry was certainly starting to slow down. I personally thought Ozil was the star man in that game.
 
Theon said:
Fergus has a great point about Thuram/Ronaldinho.

Whilst Ronaldinho is the star player on the pitch and the biggest match winner, I can't think of a better player than Thuram in the history of the game to try and stop him.
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You might restrict him to an extent, but with geniuses like Ronaldinho or Messi, they are liable to conjure up moments of magic at any single time. Ronaldinho at his best is unstoppable no-matter how good a defender you are. I still think of Thuram as a centre back by the way. I know he played right back for France, due to the brilliance of Desailly and Gallas but the majority of his club career was at centre back was it not?
 
Ayala is the best central defender on the pitch though, doubt many will disagree with that, Thuram the best defender overall probably.

Muller is going to give Cole all sorts of problems, especially as Cole is going to have absolutely no protection either from his flank partner. A typical misconception is that Muller plays on the wing a la Nasri or Carzola, this isn't the case. He can go out wide or cut inside.
 
Theon said:
Fergus has a great point about Thuram/Ronaldinho.

Whilst Ronaldinho is the star player on the pitch and the biggest match winner, I can't think of a better player than Thuram in the history of the game to try and stop him.
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A very good point. Thuram could well get the better of that match-up and with Ronaldinho not tracking back at all, Snow's left hand side could have problems. Cole would have a lot to deal with. Albelda could come across and cover but snow doesn't really want to be out-numbered in midfield. On the other hand, it is Ronaldinho we're talking about here... one of the best in our lifetimes. And Torres is getting a bit under-rated I think. At his peak he was a superb forward. Could definitely see him and Kaka linking up well together.

It's incredibly tight. Not much between the teams at all.
 
Ronaldinho, Kaka and Ozil could all easily interchange positions, so I don't really view it as Thuram vs Ronaldinho. He can drift inside if he's not getting much out of Thuram.
 
I believe we have 8 players (Cech, Terry, Carvalho, Cole, Mendieta, Kaka, Ronaldinho, Torres) who could lay claim to being the best in their position in Europe at one time (ie: their peak). I consider Fergus' to have 5 (Thuram, Ayala, Makelele, Batistuta, Villa).

While it may look a tight matchup initially, when considering these players at their peak we should have the edge. Fergus' may have players with more longevity in some cases but this draft is regarding their peak.
 
Cutch said:
Wherever Villa goes, which won't be left wing.
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You could say the same with Ronaldinho though - this is more responding to kps' point that Ronaldinho might come inside. Thuram would just follow him in the same way as Gallas is following Villa.

If they interchange positions then it will be different, but tbh I wouldn't want to see Kaka out there so it's only really Ozil. Of the three I think Ronaldinho offers you the most out wide because he is such an immense dribbler, he could go both ways, cut in and shoot back out, the question is how well Thuram can stop him.
 
Cutch said:
Cech > Reina

Gallas < Thuram
Terry + Carvalho > Ayala + Samuel
Cole > Tarnat

Albelda < Makelele
Mendieta = Schweinsteiger

Ozil = Muller
Kaka > Aimar
Ronaldinho > Villa

Torres < Batistuta

Think we have the better personnel in 6 positions while Fergus would have 3. More telling is that Cech, Cole, Kaka and Ronaldinho were significantly better than their opposite number in their prime.
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Don't think that is a good way to judge.. I used to do it earlier too.. Just saying one i better than the other is too simplistic... They need to be judged in groups.. Kinda like you did with your CBs.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
Can't see Ronaldinho, Kaka or Ozil helping out much defensively, if at all.
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Yeah, they won't and it will be a huge problem IMO. Only Albelda is a natural defender not in defence and even he will be overrun by the Makelele/Bastian combo IMO.

kps88 said:
Ronaldinho, Kaka and Ozil could all easily interchange positions, so I don't really view it as Thuram vs Ronaldinho. He can drift inside if he's not getting much out of Thuram.
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In theory, of course that could work. In reality however, it's not quite so easy for three players to interchange seamlessly, it requires a good degree of understanding IMO, and I'm not sure those players have that with each other. In comparison, my players are all in thier natural positions, performing thier natural roles. They should be able to hit the ground running whilst the other team tries to work where each player is best placed.

As far as I remember, Ronaldinho and Kaka were never a great partnership, and Ozil and Kaka has never worked together really at Madrid so I'm not entirely convinced they can work well in tandem. Even if they could, I'd be pretty happy to see Kaka and Ozil out wide, being out of position limits them severely IMO, and seeing as I have a pretty solid spine, I wouldn't be too put out by Ronaldinho perhaps being moved to the centre. Makelele and Bastian is a great cm partnership adept at dealing with all types of threats.
 
Cutch said:
The England v Germany matchup you refer to. I think by that time Cole and Tery were not in their prime years, Terry was certainly starting to slow down. I personally thought Ozil was the star man in that game.
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Müller on the right wing is a nightmare for Cole. You're probably right, Cole was slightly past his prime at the world cup, but he was completely clueless how to defend against him. It wasn't a lack of pace or something like that, he just didn't know how to defend against Müller's runs without the ball and was caught out of position time and time again. I agree that your left side is on paper clearly the best wide pairing in this draft. But imo your up against the perfect players to minimize their impact.

I still have no idea what Özil is supposed to do in the game, especially with Gallas behind him? Özil is cut off all his strength in that position and I'm sure Tarnat - probably one of the weakest full backs in the draft - is good enough to take him out of the game.

I really like your defense though - of course, I believe Cole wouldn't look as clueless as he did in 2010 in your team - and counterattacking through Kaka, Ronaldinho and Torres at his prime is :drool: . No idea, how to vote yet.
 
NM said:
Don't think that is a good way to judge.. I used to do it earlier too.. Just saying one i better than the other is too simplistic... They need to be judged in groups.. Kinda like you did with your CBs.
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Agreed. It's a team game, not individuals How they gel is more important.
 
Fergus' son said:
As far as I remember, Ronaldinho and Kaka were never a great partnership
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Brazil's poor 2006 world cup campaign springs to mind. They tried fitting in Ronaldinho, Kaka, Ronaldo and Adriano if I remember. With Ze Roberto and Robinho also in and around the side. Didn't work at all. No tracking back and France dumped them out in the quarters.
 
I don't like Mendieta that deep in midfield.. Could se it being a bit of a problem.. My memory is more of the older Mendieta though..
 
Are the other people involved in the draft allowed to vote?
 
NM said:
Are the other people involved in the draft allowed to vote?
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Yes mate.

Find it strange that people are comparing Villa out wide to Ozil, Villa has enjoyed the best part of his career in that position, winning the euros, the world cup, and every club trophy there is in Spain being ever so effective from there. Plus he's good at playing that position when there is an Argentine goal getter occupying the centre...;). Ozil on the other hand hasn't had many great performances of not out wide as far as I remember...
 
Voted for Fergus. Samuel-Ayala is a great partnership (but please switch them around in the graphic, Samuel on the right side is annoying me), Batistuta is better than Torres and I don't like Gallas at right-back, Ozil on the right or Ronaldinho and Kaka in the same side.
 
NM said:
Highlights the alck of quality wingers IMO.. But both are glaring - so much less effective out wide.
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I would rather play Villa upfront just off Batstuta in all honesty. Ozil for me is an enigma not to mention putting him on the right. Kaka's pace can stretch teams out there though...
 
Don't think Villa and Ozil are a problem. Apart from Sir Alex Ferguson, how many other manager's played with out and out wingers? Especially the last few years. Villa plays there for Barca & Spain, cutting inside to great affect. Yes Ozil is more often played central but he can play on the right in that formation & has freedom to move inside.
 
Fergus' son said:
Yes mate.

Find it strange that people are comparing Villa out wide to Ozil, Villa has enjoyed the best part of his career in that position, winning the euros, the world cup, and every club trophy there is in Spain being ever so effective from there. Plus he's good at playing that position when there is an Argentine goal getter occupying the centre...;). Ozil on the other hand hasn't had many great performances of not out wide as far as I remember...
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Villa's best part of his career was a striker, a prolific one. In the World Cup and Euro's he played upfront with Torres from what i remember, prior to the 4-6-0 days. You're getting nowhere near the best of him playing him wide.
 
Jayvin said:
Voted for Fergus. Samuel-Ayala is a great partnership (but please switch them around in the graphic, Samuel on the right side is annoying me), Batistuta is better than Torres and I don't like Gallas at right-back, Ozil on the right or Ronaldinho and Kaka in the same side.
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Samuel + Ayala is hardly a better pairing than Terry + Carvalho, one which conceded a miserable 15 and 22 goals in entire premier league seasons.

Why would you choose to highlight Ronaldinho, Kaka and Ozil as if having them is some sort of disadvantage?! Why not focus on the likes of Reina, Tarnat, and Aimar who stick out like a sore thumb in comparison to their opposite numbers.
 
Cutch said:
An enigma that scored 15 and assisted 29 last season in all competitions, many from drifting in from the right hand side.
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Doubt it, it's most of the time drifting out wide from the center, so that he draws defenders with him and players like Ronaldo (moving inside), Benzema (dropping deep) with their great movement use the open space he creates. When drifting inside from out wide he isn't really productive , because his movement becomes almost useless. That's what made him brilliant in the world cup game vs England in which - like you imo rightly said - he was the best player on the pitch. His understanding with Müller out wide was incredible and he really needs a player like Müller or Ronaldo with great off the ball movement.

Cutch said:
Why would you choose to highlight Ronaldinho, Kaka and Ozil as if having them is some sort of disadvantage?! Why not focus on the likes of Reina, Tarnat, and Aimar who stick out like a sore thumb in comparison to their opposite numbers.
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Tarnat would be a weak link, if you tried to attack through his side. You're not though, which is incredibly lucky for Fergus'son.
 
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