RAWK Goes into Meltdown 2014/2015 - The "We go again" Edition

RedRover said:
So because singing about victims of various tradgedies is not as bad as what we had in the 70's that makes it alright? Sorry, that makes no sense to me.

Your arguments were predicated on people having the right to "free speech" when in reality all it amounts to is numerous idiots signing about the deaths of fellow human beings (and fellow football fans) simply to get a rise out of another set of idiots doing the same thing in the opposite stand.

That's where we're at here - the "twaddle" is trying to dress it up as some kind of quest for justice by one set of fans seeking to remind another of their "guilt".
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You don't like me linking your censorship of behaviour with the idea of free speech? Ok. Let's bring it back to behaviour. You want to condemn others in line with what you deem acceptable. In and of itself there are obviously extreme behaviours which warrant this. Violence, racism, sexism and perhaps foul language. Yet you want to extend this to particular ways of expressing strong dislike of another group that involve none of these.

I personally don't hate Liverpool or its fans, however their behaviour over the years has generated a strong dislike for people who behave in such distasteful ways. This includes the wonderful contradictions of Munich references, Jft96 and avoiding responsibility for Heysel and anything else.

So you are worried about your family being exposed to these expressions of anger/dislike/taunting? I would be more worried about the racism and sexism where although we have made great advances we still have a long way to go. What is so very bad here? A mention of killing/deaths? Mild obscenity? I wonder if the youngsters are carefully secluded away from the TV when soaps and police procedurals are on. Violent expressions of anger and dislike abound.

The thing is, if you want to dictate or even strongly advise people to restrict their expressions it seems to me you need strong reasons, as we have for sexism. In the context of tragic references I believe taunting someone about their own tragedies is unacceptable, I do not see that taunting them about their own bad behaviour justifies these songs being 'banned'. Maybe I am inured to it. Maybe I'm a sad bastard who rails against violence and sexism and sees other issues as less important.
 
Feedingseagulls said:
You don't like me linking your censorship of behaviour with the idea of free speech? Ok. Let's bring it back to behaviour. You want to condemn others in line with what you deem acceptable. In and of itself there are obviously extreme behaviours which warrant this. Violence, racism, sexism and perhaps foul language. Yet you want to extend this to particular ways of expressing strong dislike of another group that involve none of these.

I personally don't hate Liverpool or its fans, however their behaviour over the years has generated a strong dislike for people who behave in such distasteful ways. This includes the wonderful contradictions of Munich references, Jft96 and avoiding responsibility for Heysel and anything else.

So you are worried about your family being exposed to these expressions of anger/dislike/taunting? I would be more worried about the racism and sexism where although we have made great advances we still have a long way to go. What is so very bad here? A mention of killing/deaths? Mild obscenity? I wonder if the youngsters are carefully secluded away from the TV when soaps and police procedurals are on. Violent expressions of anger and dislike abound.

The thing is, if you want to dictate or even strongly advise people to restrict their expressions it seems to me you need strong reasons, as we have for sexism. In the context of tragic references I believe taunting someone about their own tragedies is unacceptable, I do not see that taunting them about their own bad behaviour justifies these songs being 'banned'. Maybe I am inured to it. Maybe I'm a sad bastard who rails against violence and sexism and sees other issues as less important.
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Wonderful. "There are other, worse things in the world so I don't need to stop being a dickhead about this thing until they're solved first." What a marvelous way to ensure that absolutely nothing is done about anything, ever.

This isn't about your right to remind Liverpool fans of how they behaved at Heysel, this is about incredibly distasteful chanting that uses the tragic deaths of 39 people to get a rise out of Liverpool fans. If you cared about justice for those who lost their lives at Heysel, you'd be doing a lot more than singing a bloody song during two matches in a football season.

The fact that it is sung to the same tune as their very justified "Justice for the 96" chant, the fact that it is sung during just two games a year, and the fact that it is sung by fans of just one club very much suggests that it has absolutely nothing to do with justice, and is nothing more than a vile attempt at angering opposition fans by trying to detract from their very legitimate outrage about a tragedy that caused the deaths of 96 of their supporters.

This isn't a free speech or censorship issue, it's simply about conducting yourself as an adult with some compassion and respect for the dead.
 
PhaseofPlay has got qualifications in shouting at groups of blokes while they kick a ball about.

This enables him to witter on about how the team with the best players and the best most visionary Manager doesn't win.

If you're only going to own 20 CDs, why The La's?
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Faze of Play

Like a spider trapped in a bath tub, Gerrard showed all of the characteristics of a man struggling to find a way out of the never-ending pit of imprisonment that he has allowed himself to fall into. As he steels himself yet again to attempt the near impossible climb up to safety and towards freedom, he reflects on the extent of his own failures and how far he has fallen. He also curses himself for dropping into the trap yet again, and like the spider he cannot understand the concept of slippy surfaces.

"That metaphor doesn't work," Gerrard thinks to himself. But then again, as shown for a second Sunday in as many years; neither does Gerrard.

Maybe he is secretly incredibly religious, and thus deeply offended that he is contractually obligated to play football on what is his Lord's day of rest? Maybe this, combined with Brendan Rodgers - a false idol in Gerrard's eyes - demanding that every player worship the ground he walks on and partake in daily prayer sessions towards the gigantic painting of the Liverpool manager riding a horse shaped Mighty Red, has brought Gerrard to breaking point? Maybe this Sunday was the final chapter in the on-going battle of the religions at Anfield, and Gerrard had finally decided to stand up tall and scream "NO MORE!" against the tyrannical oppression of the Anfield religion known simply as "Brendan's Church of I'm Brilliant"?

We may never know. We will probably never care.
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Hahaha quality.
 
Feedingseagulls said:
You don't like me linking your censorship of behaviour with the idea of free speech? Ok. Let's bring it back to behaviour. You want to condemn others in line with what you deem acceptable. In and of itself there are obviously extreme behaviours which warrant this. Violence, racism, sexism and perhaps foul language. Yet you want to extend this to particular ways of expressing strong dislike of another group that involve none of these.

I personally don't hate Liverpool or its fans, however their behaviour over the years has generated a strong dislike for people who behave in such distasteful ways. This includes the wonderful contradictions of Munich references, Jft96 and avoiding responsibility for Heysel and anything else.

So you are worried about your family being exposed to these expressions of anger/dislike/taunting? I would be more worried about the racism and sexism where although we have made great advances we still have a long way to go. What is so very bad here? A mention of killing/deaths? Mild obscenity? I wonder if the youngsters are carefully secluded away from the TV when soaps and police procedurals are on. Violent expressions of anger and dislike abound.

The thing is, if you want to dictate or even strongly advise people to restrict their expressions it seems to me you need strong reasons, as we have for sexism. In the context of tragic references I believe taunting someone about their own tragedies is unacceptable, I do not see that taunting them about their own bad behaviour justifies these songs being 'banned'. Maybe I am inured to it. Maybe I'm a sad bastard who rails against violence and sexism and sees other issues as less important.
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I have no objection to free speech, where people have a legitimate opinion and understand what it is they are talking about. What I object to is people using the "free speech" argument to try and justify unpleasant behavoir. I see little difference between those unpleasant and obviously offensive things you mention and using the deaths of others to mock rival football fans.

While I dont understand it, people have a right to express a "strong dislike" of rival fans. To me singing about events like this - something anyone of us as match going football fans could be affected by - crosses the line. Free speech in a civilised society doesnt give you carte blanche to say whatever you like whenever you like. Society judges what is within its norms and is justifiable and what isn't. I suspect most people would find this kind of thing deeply offensive if asked.

What you miss is the obvious fact that 99% of those joining in with this kind of thing will actually give no thought to it at all. They are not expressing an opinion about tragic events which a lot of them will know little to nothing about. Its all about mob mentality and I suspect a lot of these blokes would never do this kind of thing in "the real world" where their actions would have consequences to their daily lives. Given that I dont see why people think its alright to behave like that at football.

As regards how "bad" this kind of thing is - lets look at it from this point of view. I take my young son to a game and he hears fans signing about Heysel, or Hillsborough and asks me what its all about. What do I say? - "I know its only a game of football son but we like to sing about when a lot of lads just like me and you went to the cup semi final and a lot of them died horrifically". How does any right thining person not see a problem with that?

At the end of the day you can have whatever opinion you like, as is your perogative. I'm genuinely surpised that anyone can see any justification in using the deaths of innocent people who went to watch a game of football one day and didnt come home, simply to get a rise out of opposition fans over a game of football - which is essentially 22 millionaires who give little to no thought to you or any other fans, kicking a bag of wind about. Life is all about perspective but it seems some people have none.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Faze of Play

Like a spider trapped in a bath tub, Gerrard showed all of the characteristics of a man struggling to find a way out of the never-ending pit of imprisonment that he has allowed himself to fall into. As he steels himself yet again to attempt the near impossible climb up to safety and towards freedom, he reflects on the extent of his own failures and how far he has fallen. He also curses himself for dropping into the trap yet again, and like the spider he cannot understand the concept of slippy surfaces.

"That metaphor doesn't work," Gerrard thinks to himself. But then again, as shown for a second Sunday in as many years; neither does Gerrard.

Maybe he is secretly incredibly religious, and thus deeply offended that he is contractually obligated to play football on what is his Lord's day of rest? Maybe this, combined with Brendan Rodgers - a false idol in Gerrard's eyes - demanding that every player worship the ground he walks on and partake in daily prayer sessions towards the gigantic painting of the Liverpool manager riding a horse shaped Mighty Red, has brought Gerrard to breaking point? Maybe this Sunday was the final chapter in the on-going battle of the religions at Anfield, and Gerrard had finally decided to stand up tall and scream "NO MORE!" against the tyrannical oppression of the Anfield religion known simply as "Brendan's Church of I'm Brilliant"?

We may never know. We will probably never care.
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:lol:
 
Alex99 said:
Wonderful. "There are other, worse things in the world so I don't need to stop being a dickhead about this thing until they're solved first." What a marvelous way to ensure that absolutely nothing is done about anything, ever.

This isn't about your right to remind Liverpool fans of how they behaved at Heysel, this is about incredibly distasteful chanting that uses the tragic deaths of 39 people to get a rise out of Liverpool fans. If you cared about justice for those who lost their lives at Heysel, you'd be doing a lot more than singing a bloody song during two matches in a football season.

The fact that it is sung to the same tune as their very justified "Justice for the 96" chant, the fact that it is sung during just two games a year, and the fact that it is sung by fans of just one club very much suggests that it has absolutely nothing to do with justice, and is nothing more than a vile attempt at angering opposition fans by trying to detract from their very legitimate outrage about a tragedy that caused the deaths of 96 of their supporters.

This isn't a free speech or censorship issue, it's simply about conducting yourself as an adult with some compassion and respect for the dead.
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It is about reminding them of their hypocrisy and our distaste for that.

In your view using the strongest example is debarred because of the tragedy to which it refers, Heysel. We cannot remind them they are always the victims because they expropriated the meaning to be about Hillsborough, once again insisting on their victim status. Shall we then only sing about their footballing triumphs lest we offend their sensibilities as well as yours.
 
RedRover said:
As regards how "bad" this kind of thing is - lets look at it from this point of view. I take my young son to a game and he hears fans signing about Heysel, or Hillsborough and asks me what its all about. What do I say? - "I know its only a game of football son but we like to sing about when a lot of lads just like me and you went to the cup semi final and a lot of them died horrifically". How does any right thining person not see a problem with that?
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In a sane world, Hillsborough would unite us, not divide us. 96 people, mostly working class people, perished on that day and ever since their deaths have been clouded by lies and obfuscation by the police and the government. The scale of the cover up is fecking appalling and were it not for the courageous actions of those who have ceaselessly campaigned for justice, the whole affair would still be buried deep. That's the real crime here and those who perpetrated it have remained in their jobs and now enjoy retirement.
 
RedRover said:
I have no objection to free speech, where people have a legitimate opinion and understand what it is they are talking about. What I object to is people using the "free speech" argument to try and justify unpleasant behavoir. I see little difference between those unpleasant and obviously offensive things you mention and using the deaths of others to mock rival football fans.

While I dont understand it, people have a right to express a "strong dislike" of rival fans. To me singing about events like this - something anyone of us as match going football fans could be affected by - crosses the line. Free speech in a civilised society doesnt give you carte blanche to say whatever you like whenever you like. Society judges what is within its norms and is justifiable and what isn't. I suspect most people would find this kind of thing deeply offensive if asked.

What you miss is the obvious fact that 99% of those joining in with this kind of thing will actually give no thought to it at all. They are not expressing an opinion about tragic events which a lot of them will know little to nothing about. Its all about mob mentality and I suspect a lot of these blokes would never do this kind of thing in "the real world" where their actions would have consequences to their daily lives. Given that I dont see why people think its alright to behave like that at football.

As regards how "bad" this kind of thing is - lets look at it from this point of view. I take my young son to a game and he hears fans signing about Heysel, or Hillsborough and asks me what its all about. What do I say? - "I know its only a game of football son but we like to sing about when a lot of lads just like me and you went to the cup semi final and a lot of them died horrifically". How does any right thining person not see a problem with that?

At the end of the day you can have whatever opinion you like, as is your perogative. I'm genuinely surpised that anyone can see any justification in using the deaths of innocent people who went to watch a game of football one day and didnt come home, simply to get a rise out of opposition fans over a game of football - which is essentially 22 millionaires who give little to no thought to you or any other fans, kicking a bag of wind about. Life is all about perspective but it seems some people have none.
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You describe Hillsborough when the topic was the violence and tragedy of Heysel. It appears the scouse propanganda service has done well.
The song refers to the despicable violent actions of people we do not want associated with football, and the attempts of they and their pals to be absolved of all blame, we do not approve of such behaviour and remind them of it. Is that such a bad story for your son to hear?
Right about Hillsborough itself though.
 
Moriarty said:
In a sane world, Hillsborough would unite us, not divide us. 96 people, mostly working class people, perished on that day and ever since their deaths have been clouded by lies and obfuscation by the police and the government. The scale of the cover up is fecking appalling and were it not for the courageous actions of those who have ceaselessly campaigned for justice, the whole affair would still be buried deep. That's the real crime here and those who perpetrated it have remained in their jobs and now enjoy retirement.
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Agreed. And for many fans including myself the police have been campaigned against. Some painful insights have thankfully improved the lot of football supporters and the negative feedback between hooliganism and enforcement behaviours has been weakened.

And I think tbh that my position on these issues should now be clear. Hillsborough out of bounds. Hypocrisy over Heysel fair game imo because there are not strong enough grounds to ban it.

So let us return to mocking scousers for their delusion and stupidity.
 
Feedingseagulls said:
It is about reminding them of their hypocrisy and our distaste for that.

In your view using the strongest example is debarred because of the tragedy to which it refers, Heysel. We cannot remind them they are always the victims because they expropriated the meaning to be about Hillsborough, once again insisting on their victim status. Shall we then only sing about their footballing triumphs lest we offend their sensibilities as well as yours.
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It's not about reminding them of anything though. It's about using 39 lost lives to score some vile and petty oneupmanship over a rival. As I have repeated, and as you have ignored, if it were about justice for those that died at Heysel, you'd be doing more than chanting for two games a season. Tell me, what do you do to further this apparent drive you have to seek justice for the Juventus fans that lost their lives there? Or is it, as I suspect, that you care more about angering Liverpool fans than 39 people who tragically lost their lives?

We do not need to sing about the tragedies that they have been involved in or their footballing triumphs, and we certainly shouldn't be singing about the former because it's incredibly disrespectful to those that died. We have a lovely middle ground that involves reminding them of Steven Gerrard slipping and costing them the title, of their Liverpool legend handing in a transfer request, of a Uruguayan without many goals for our side scoring the winner against them, and most importantly, of the 20 titles we have won that overshadows the 18 they held over us for so long.
 
Look, probably somewhere in our repertoire of ''great songs'' about the deaths of 135 football spectators there's some kind of point loitering in there. (I've got some fairly fruity views on some terribly wrong inconsistencies, in the midst of the things, meself) but when it's an argument you are not going to win and is barely worth having and when MOST people would strongly disagree, it's probably best just to quietly drop the thing. So we should, I think.
 
Alex99 said:
It's not about reminding them of anything though. It's about using 39 lost lives to score some vile and petty oneupmanship over a rival. As I have repeated, and as you have ignored, if it were about justice for those that died at Heysel, you'd be doing more than chanting for two games a season. Tell me, what do you do to further this apparent drive you have to seek justice for the Juventus fans that lost their lives there? Or is it, as I suspect, that you care more about angering Liverpool fans than 39 people who tragically lost their lives?

We do not need to sing about the tragedies that they have been involved in or their footballing triumphs, and we certainly shouldn't be singing about the former because it's incredibly disrespectful to those that died. We have a lovely middle ground that involves reminding them of Steven Gerrard slipping and costing them the title, of their Liverpool legend handing in a transfer request, of a Uruguayan without many goals for our side scoring the winner against them, and most importantly, of the 20 titles we have won that overshadows the 18 they held over us for so long.
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It may come down to how people experience the songs. If the presence of tragedy means the listener focusses on that maybe they see it as you do. If they always seek linguistic context as I automatically do perhaps they too hear a ringing charge of hypocrisy.

Finished.
 
Alex99 said:
It's not about reminding them of anything though. It's about using 39 lost lives to score some vile and petty oneupmanship over a rival. As I have repeated, and as you have ignored, if it were about justice for those that died at Heysel, you'd be doing more than chanting for two games a season. Tell me, what do you do to further this apparent drive you have to seek justice for the Juventus fans that lost their lives there? Or is it, as I suspect, that you care more about angering Liverpool fans than 39 people who tragically lost their lives?

We do not need to sing about the tragedies that they have been involved in or their footballing triumphs, and we certainly shouldn't be singing about the former because it's incredibly disrespectful to those that died. We have a lovely middle ground that involves reminding them of Steven Gerrard slipping and costing them the title, of their Liverpool legend handing in a transfer request, of a Uruguayan without many goals for our side scoring the winner against them, and most importantly, of the 20 titles we have won that overshadows the 18 they held over us for so long.
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Great post. The chants are pathetic and need to stop. Whatever the intent (and I also find the explanation risible that the chants have some moral purpose by pointing out hypocrisy), they make United fans look like cretins.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Faze of Play

Like a spider trapped in a bath tub, Gerrard showed all of the characteristics of a man struggling to find a way out of the never-ending pit of imprisonment that he has allowed himself to fall into. As he steels himself yet again to attempt the near impossible climb up to safety and towards freedom, he reflects on the extent of his own failures and how far he has fallen. He also curses himself for dropping into the trap yet again, and like the spider he cannot understand the concept of slippy surfaces.

"That metaphor doesn't work," Gerrard thinks to himself. But then again, as shown for a second Sunday in as many years; neither does Gerrard.

Maybe he is secretly incredibly religious, and thus deeply offended that he is contractually obligated to play football on what is his Lord's day of rest? Maybe this, combined with Brendan Rodgers - a false idol in Gerrard's eyes - demanding that every player worship the ground he walks on and partake in daily prayer sessions towards the gigantic painting of the Liverpool manager riding a horse shaped Mighty Red, has brought Gerrard to breaking point? Maybe this Sunday was the final chapter in the on-going battle of the religions at Anfield, and Gerrard had finally decided to stand up tall and scream "NO MORE!" against the tyrannical oppression of the Anfield religion known simply as "Brendan's Church of I'm Brilliant"?

We may never know. We will probably never care.
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Smashing read there, son. YAWN.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Faze of Play

Like a spider trapped in a bath tub, Gerrard showed all of the characteristics of a man struggling to find a way out of the never-ending pit of imprisonment that he has allowed himself to fall into. As he steels himself yet again to attempt the near impossible climb up to safety and towards freedom, he reflects on the extent of his own failures and how far he has fallen. He also curses himself for dropping into the trap yet again, and like the spider he cannot understand the concept of slippy surfaces.

"That metaphor doesn't work," Gerrard thinks to himself. But then again, as shown for a second Sunday in as many years; neither does Gerrard.

Maybe he is secretly incredibly religious, and thus deeply offended that he is contractually obligated to play football on what is his Lord's day of rest? Maybe this, combined with Brendan Rodgers - a false idol in Gerrard's eyes - demanding that every player worship the ground he walks on and partake in daily prayer sessions towards the gigantic painting of the Liverpool manager riding a horse shaped Mighty Red, has brought Gerrard to breaking point? Maybe this Sunday was the final chapter in the on-going battle of the religions at Anfield, and Gerrard had finally decided to stand up tall and scream "NO MORE!" against the tyrannical oppression of the Anfield religion known simply as "Brendan's Church of I'm Brilliant"?

We may never know. We will probably never care.
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:lol:
 
Feedingseagulls said:
It may come down to how people experience the songs. If the presence of tragedy means the listener focusses on that maybe they see it as you do. If they always seek linguistic context as I automatically do perhaps they too hear a ringing charge of hypocrisy.

Finished.
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Again, you've dodged the main point. If the fans that chant "justice for the 39" genuinely cared about seeking justice for the dead, they'd do more than chant a song at Liverpool fans during two football matches a year. What do you, or other fans that chant it actually do to help move towards justice?

I suspect the answer to that is nothing.

You seem content with your reminders of hypocrisy, and care little for the actual victims of the tragedy. I also suspect that the hypocrisy you keep referring to is not so much "well they chant about Munich" but that they dared seek justice for a tragedy that saw 96 Liverpool supporters lose their lives.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Faze of Play

Like a spider trapped in a bath tub, Gerrard showed all of the characteristics of a man struggling to find a way out of the never-ending pit of imprisonment that he has allowed himself to fall into. As he steels himself yet again to attempt the near impossible climb up to safety and towards freedom, he reflects on the extent of his own failures and how far he has fallen. He also curses himself for dropping into the trap yet again, and like the spider he cannot understand the concept of slippy surfaces.

"That metaphor doesn't work," Gerrard thinks to himself. But then again, as shown for a second Sunday in as many years; neither does Gerrard.

Maybe he is secretly incredibly religious, and thus deeply offended that he is contractually obligated to play football on what is his Lord's day of rest? Maybe this, combined with Brendan Rodgers - a false idol in Gerrard's eyes - demanding that every player worship the ground he walks on and partake in daily prayer sessions towards the gigantic painting of the Liverpool manager riding a horse shaped Mighty Red, has brought Gerrard to breaking point? Maybe this Sunday was the final chapter in the on-going battle of the religions at Anfield, and Gerrard had finally decided to stand up tall and scream "NO MORE!" against the tyrannical oppression of the Anfield religion known simply as "Brendan's Church of I'm Brilliant"?

We may never know. We will probably never care.
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This brought a tear or ten to my eye. Cheers for the read, la(d).
 
Moriarty said:
In a sane world, Hillsborough would unite us, not divide us. 96 people, mostly working class people, perished on that day and ever since their deaths have been clouded by lies and obfuscation by the police and the government. The scale of the cover up is fecking appalling and were it not for the courageous actions of those who have ceaselessly campaigned for justice, the whole affair would still be buried deep. That's the real crime here and those who perpetrated it have remained in their jobs and now enjoy retirement.
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Well said.
 
Alex99 said:
Again, you've dodged the main point. If the fans that chant "justice for the 39" genuinely cared about seeking justice for the dead, they'd do more than chant a song at Liverpool fans during two football matches a year. What do you, or other fans that chant it actually do to help move towards justice?

I suspect the answer to that is nothing.

You seem content with your reminders of hypocrisy, and care little for the actual victims of the tragedy. I also suspect that the hypocrisy you keep referring to is not so much "well they chant about Munich" but that they dared seek justice for a tragedy that saw 96 Liverpool supporters lose their lives.
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Nope. I refer you to previous posts.
 
Feedingseagulls said:
You describe Hillsborough when the topic was the violence and tragedy of Heysel. It appears the scouse propanganda service has done well.
The song refers to the despicable violent actions of people we do not want associated with football, and the attempts of they and their pals to be absolved of all blame, we do not approve of such behaviour and remind them of it. Is that such a bad story for your son to hear?
Right about Hillsborough itself though.
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Again you ignore the fact that most of those signing this will have little to no knowledge about what happened, nor will they seek to educate themselves. Your repeated suggestions that the motivation for this is some kind of quest for Justice by United fans is bizarre. Do you really believe that's what the average person engaging in this thinks?

What really irks me with these kind of things is that in the normal course of their daily lives people generally don't behave like this. A good number of ordinarily normal people seem to go to football and leave their brains at home seemingly safe in the knowledge that they can behave like an idiot at the football and get away with it. I suspect few of these people would admit to doing this if asked after the event.

Infact, its a bit like the anonymity of the internet. I'd be interested to know if you'd have the same opinion on whether this kind of thing is acceptable if asked by a work colleague face to face.

As I said, you're entitled to your opinion. I just find your arguments bizarre.
 
Alex99 said:
The previous posts where you also dodged the question, just like you've just done again?
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Where I make it clear that the justice element upon which you focus so strongly and which appears in only one of the songs being discussed is not really my focus at all. That is the behaviour of Liverpool and their hypocrisy.

Btw. I had not knowingly heard of Jft39 as a song until this weekend. Murderers, 3 times etc I have often heard. Wonder if the lyrics have anything interesting in them...
 
RedRover said:
Again you ignore the fact that most of those signing this will have little to no knowledge about what happened, nor will they seek to educate themselves. Your repeated suggestions that the motivation for this is some kind of quest for Justice by United fans is bizarre. Do you really believe that's what the average person engaging in this thinks?

What really irks me with these kind of things is that in the normal course of their daily lives people generally don't behave like this. A good number of ordinarily normal people seem to go to football and leave their brains at home seemingly safe in the knowledge that they can behave like an idiot at the football and get away with it. I suspect few of these people would admit to doing this if asked after the event.

Infact, its a bit like the anonymity of the internet. I'd be interested to know if you'd have the same opinion on whether this kind of thing is acceptable if asked by a work colleague face to face.

As I said, you're entitled to your opinion. I just find your arguments bizarre.
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This was in the context of someone providing a rationale for their son remember.

I agree many actions prob take place on autopilot for many though. People's lack of decent mental processes at most times is stunning.
 
Feedingseagulls said:
Where I make it clear that the justice element upon which you focus so strongly and which appears in only one of the songs being discussed is not really my focus at all. That is the behaviour of Liverpool and their hypocrisy.

Btw. I had not knowingly heard of Jft39 as a song until this weekend. Murderers, 3 times etc I have often heard. Wonder if the lyrics have anything interesting in them...
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Regardless of whether the word 'justice' is mentioned, they all refer to the same tragedy, and are all sung to anger Liverpool fans, not in remembrance or out of respect for the dead.

You keep repeating that you wish to remind Liverpool of their hypocrisy and behaviour, but in doing so you're using 39 lost lives as mere ammunition for a wind-up. It's not tasteful, it's not respectful, and it's certainly not moral, no matter how much claim that the basis is some moral calling that a certain section of the United support feel.

If you genuinely cared about reminding Liverpool fans of their behaviour at Heysel, you'd do more than sing a few detestable songs a couple of times a year. It was a tragedy, and an extremely unfortunate consequence of the intense tribalism and hooligan culture that was rife amongst supporters of many clubs, Manchester United included. To pretend that Liverpool were the only English club that had problematic support is nothing short of rewriting history. In another universe it could have been Manchester United that were playing Juventus that evening, and it could have been our aggressive support that played a part in the deaths of 39 Juventus fans.

English clubs were banned from Europe for a number of years as result. Supporters groups have issued formal apologies, and the club have a memorial plaque outside of the stadium. Major anniversaries are commemorated respectfully. The apologies and acceptance may have come late, but I'd say they've done their bit. Short of finding the exact people responsible for charging the fence, a near impossible task, I'm not sure what else you expect them to do.

Yes, they'll have a vocal minority that deny all responsibility, but we have a vocal minority that revel in reminding them of 96 tragic deaths.

So, tell me, why exactly would a supporter of Manchester United choose to sing a song about Heysel other than to anger Liverpool fans?
 
This thread isn't meant to be a serious topic. It's for quotes like this.
I think Brendan himself has diagnosed Dan with fucuhodgsonubolloxedourseasonefilitis which has a recovery period of just under two weeks. Roy now has the likely role of damaging Harry Kane and therefore ending the season for Spurs. United players very rarely get injured on international duty although often just before.
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Mr Pigeon said:
Faze of Play

Like a spider trapped in a bath tub, Gerrard showed all of the characteristics of a man struggling to find a way out of the never-ending pit of imprisonment that he has allowed himself to fall into. As he steels himself yet again to attempt the near impossible climb up to safety and towards freedom, he reflects on the extent of his own failures and how far he has fallen. He also curses himself for dropping into the trap yet again, and like the spider he cannot understand the concept of slippy surfaces.

"That metaphor doesn't work," Gerrard thinks to himself. But then again, as shown for a second Sunday in as many years; neither does Gerrard.

Maybe he is secretly incredibly religious, and thus deeply offended that he is contractually obligated to play football on what is his Lord's day of rest? Maybe this, combined with Brendan Rodgers - a false idol in Gerrard's eyes - demanding that every player worship the ground he walks on and partake in daily prayer sessions towards the gigantic painting of the Liverpool manager riding a horse shaped Mighty Red, has brought Gerrard to breaking point? Maybe this Sunday was the final chapter in the on-going battle of the religions at Anfield, and Gerrard had finally decided to stand up tall and scream "NO MORE!" against the tyrannical oppression of the Anfield religion known simply as "Brendan's Church of I'm Brilliant"?

We may never know. We will probably never care.
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Brill post Rodg, la, YAWN. :)
 
Stevie, legend dangling limply between his legs, felt the surge of Mersey adrenaline as the crowd roared.Time to make them all pay.
The hated opponents, the false messiah blind to his genius.

We're off. The ball's there, I think, have that you scum ponce. The adulation of the mob rings round the amphitheatre, revelling in the violence. Yes. He still has it. The day is his. His. The full impact of the Liverpool communion surges through him. Only with his followers does he feel whole.

This little twerp dares to challenge me. Me. How dare he? Take that!

A song enters his head unbidden orchestrated to the crowd's roar. His vision clears to an impossible block of red. Has this man lost his senses? This is his God he approaches. This insect cannot mean it.

The unsettled lull penetrates his fogged perception. High-pitched incomprehensible murmurs protest innocence. That there is no hurt. No fault. But soon, fallen, the idol walks slowly accompanied by hubris and envy back over the touchline.
 
If i'm Skrtel, i'd go to the FA and say yes I did stamp on De Gea only because Wayne Rooney kicked out and studded our goal keeper and could have broke his ankle so I was paying them back.
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As expected FA doing nothing to precious Spanish midgets like Herrera and De Gea when both should get 3 game bans.
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For what?

Correct. We didn't win the treble in 2001 without losing to Brondby, PSG, Strasbourg and Celta Vigo before that. And we didn't win the Champions League in 2005 without losing to Leverkeusen and Valencia before that too.
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"Treble" :lol:

Champions league is a pile of shit these days anyway. Feck 4th. Who finished 4th last time we won the title? If you know that without googling it then you're a liar. Who knows and who cares.
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Yeah, who wants CL football anyway:lol::lol::lol:
 
Truedevil said:
"Treble" :lol:
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Revan said:
Cantona called it in a thread. I had my doubts all the time, but with time passing, I am pretty convinced that he isn't a United fan. There is Stockholm syndrome, and there is being like him. Nowadays he doesn't even try to hide his pure hatred for United.
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Stockholm syndrome? :). Is he chained in a dark dungeon under the Kop?
 
Maybe he just has no friends so he pretends to be a United fan so he can tell his stories about his 'United supporting mate'
 
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