[tomaldinho1]

Not winding you up. You’re simply just arguing something adjacent - the point holds no merit in this discussion. Mind that you asked me what Hojlund did wrong and I’ve explained to you many times what he should have done and why - you then randomly started talking about Bruno being right footed and how that wouldn’t have been an optimal chance for him - which, again, is adjacent and not relevant to what Hojlund should have done and the effect it would have had.



Right, so we went from “lie” to whatever the above is.



There isn’t a tactic. I’ve answered your questions multiple times, you went from “you guys are odd” to “use your noggins” to “you’re bias” to multiple failed attempts at gotcha moments - your frustration is rooted and anchored in that.

Hojlund’s movement was poor. We scored due to Garnacho making the most of his only available option and a great finish by Bruno. Hojlund didn’t intentionally facilitate the move, he didn’t even know where Bruno was as evidenced by how he tried to avoid being hit by the shot - and despite a good initial run he should have checked it at minute mark 0:09 and taken one of two options that would have put him in a much easier to find place for Garnacho, all the while creating space for Bruno behind him. Professional footballers are not infallible (young ones especially so) hence the existence of coaching.

I’ve accepted that your opinion on this doesn’t mirror mine, and I find yours to be poor. You seemingly can’t move on, so now it’s just a tired exercise with a random accusation every other two posts or so.

If this is trolling, congrats, you got me.

• You created a hypothetical scenario re the back post pass and then have become confused by it. That is not my problem.
• Incorrect, what you said re where the players are at the moment in time remains demonstrably a lie. Timestamp away, you can't change the fact that Hojlund moving back across goal would potentially impede Bruno more than where he is. Anyone can go read what you wrote, watch the video and see it is a lie.
• I have zero gotcha moments (but I notice you keep using it after I accused you of doing so which makes me think moreso that you were trying to do that), I just want you to accept that the far post run was a valid option. The fact you cannot do that is hilarious.

You jumped on something wanting to criticise and are demonstrably wrong - we literally scored because of it. You seem to only have the take that Hojlund was completely clueless and basically everyone else made up for his poor run. Keep that opinion if you must, argue it until you are red in the face but I cannot take you seriously. Your points are:

• Body position (subjective) in relation to when Bruno shoots (provably false)
• Your 'coaching' (I don't need to say anything here)
• The fact some other people think as you do (as above)

You still will not simply answer the yes or no questions, so there is no good faith on your side. You are just replying in order to not concede. I am happy to continue this discussion but answer the two questions, copied for your ease again here:

Bruno's chance and goal is inarguably better because he can run onto a shot without the ball being contested (yes/no), the reason he has the space to do so is because the only Arsenal player in a realsitic position to challenge him, the covering CB, has no option but to go to Hojlund (yes/no).

 

[TsuWave]

If this is trolling, congrats, you got me.

• You created a hypothetical scenario re the back post pass and then have become confused by it. That is not my problem.

Babble.

Question: What should Hojlund have done?

Answer: Hojlund should have taken one of these two options. This provides Garnacho with more options - Hojlund and the whole back post area for Bruno

Your babble: Bruno is right footed

Good lord.

• Incorrect, what you said re where the players are at the moment in time remains demonstrably a lie. Timestamp away, you can't change the fact that Hojlund moving back across goal would potentially impede Bruno more than where he is. Anyone can go read what you wrote, watch the video and see it is a lie.

Again, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Took you a whole day to see Hojlund drifting to the furthest post and then shifting his body to avoid being hit by Bruno’s shot in a manner that’s evidently against the narrative you tried to paint. Initially it was “lie” because you couldn’t even recognise it in the video, eventually you did and it was “Ah I now understand what you mean”, now we’re back to some other fabricated nonsense. You just didn’t understand something simple.

You still will not simply answer the yes or no questions, so there is no good faith on your side. You are just replying in order to not concede. I am happy to continue this discussion but answer the two questions, copied for your ease again here:

Bruno's chance and goal is inarguably better because he can run onto a shot without the ball being contested (yes/no), the reason he has the space to do so is because the only Arsenal player in a realsitic position to challenge him, the covering CB, has no option but to go to Hojlund (yes/no).

Hojlund’s movement was poor. We scored due to Garnacho making the most of his only available option and a great finish by Bruno. Hojlund didn’t intentionally facilitate the move, he didn’t even know where Bruno was as evidenced by how he tried to avoid being hit by the shot - and despite a good initial run he should have checked it at minute mark 0:09 and taken one of two options that would have put him in a much easier to find place for Garnacho, all the while creating space for Bruno behind him.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Babble.

Question: What should Hojlund have done?

Answer: Hojlund should have taken one of these two options. This provides Garnacho with more options - Hojlund and the whole back post area for Bruno

Your babble: Bruno is right footed

Good lord.



Again, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Took you a whole day to see Hojlund drifting to the furthest post and then shifting his body to avoid being hit by Bruno’s shot in a manner that’s evidently against the narrative you tried to paint. Initially it was “lie” because you couldn’t even recognise it in the video, eventually you did and it was “Ah I now understand what you mean”, now we’re back to some other fabricated nonsense. You just didn’t understand something simple.



Hojlund’s movement was poor. We scored due to Garnacho making the most of his only available option and a great finish by Bruno. Hojlund didn’t intentionally facilitate the move, he didn’t even know where Bruno was as evidenced by how he tried to avoid being hit by the shot - and despite a good initial run he should have checked it at minute mark 0:09 and taken one of two options that would have put him in a much easier to find place for Garnacho, all the while creating space for Bruno behind him.

All this has been answered, if you can't read/process the information, please go back over previous posts.

Answer the questions please. Yes or No to both. Nothing else. If you can't or won't, don't reply.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

Hojlund either left the right movement by not going right or made the right movement by going left. There you are, stand down.

 

[gaffs]

I think it is. When you buy young players, you never know how they turn out. This actually applies not only to young players but to those especially. Which is why it is so important to not overspent there in high pressure situation or to have at least a plan to relieve some of the pressure. I agree with you, Hojlund falls short of expectations unfortunately and I think, we have to do something in terms of striker. I just don't think overspending on a player from a lower league is the way to go. If we don't expect Hojlund to make the step up, let him go to preserve some of the price we paid and re-invest into another striker. I have nothing against it, but some fans on here sound as if we should add another striker to the mix and I think, this wouldn't be a good idea, given that we already have two strikers who are in need for game time.

We spent £70 odd million on him. Sell him at the end of the season and we would be lucky to get half of that.

What would a backup striker cost us? At least £35mil.

I think it would be better to keep him and hope he develops into something.

But I also agree that having Zirkzee, Hojlund and then say Gyökeres would be problematic. 3 into 1 does not go.

 

[marcus agrippa]

He scored a penalty. Otherwise wasnt dangerous at all. Its time we get a ready striker who can score goals.

Zirkzee wasn't dangerous? Did you watch the game?

Twisted up Saliba and Jorginho to release Amad on the counter.

Got a shot off at the edge of the box to bring out a brilliant save from Raya. Holund didn't even manage a shot the entire ninety.

Had a run on the counter and should have played the ball earlier to Amad, who by then had unfortunately strayed offside.

He had a better game than Hojlund.

He changed our game when he came on with Amad. That's just a fact.

Disappointing performance. Team didn't help him launching so many balls vaguely in his direction but the one time he did manage to hold up the ball really stood out as so often he lost possession too easily. Lack of understanding between him and team-mates is a big problem, both inside the penalty area and in the build-up phase.

We weren't launching vague long balls. I find it funny that he always seemed a step behind Saliba. It's almost like they had their timings better than he did. He's always preoccupied by the defender, rather than seizing the initiative by attacking the ball.

It seems to be his main problem he just keeps making the wrong runs and I don't think you can really fix that. Maybe you can but I just think you either have the insight to make the right runs or you don't.

The thing is, though, I've seen him making much better runs before this season. So it's in there somewhere. Loss of confidence? Hiding?

I'm convinced if he was in Havertz place today he would have scored at least 1 and be the hero for them.

Think the theme of this thread is that his movement is unlikely to result in his being in Havertz's position to begin with.

I think Rasmus has much to work on, but there's a lazy narrative here of 'movement' and every time someone tries to show the lack of movement, the example is atrocious. It is annoying to say the least.

The movement thing is valid. Go watch any of our games from when Hojlund and McT were in the same team. I too bought that 'lack of service' line until I started looking at those kind of games closely. McT is a better striker. He has the better instincts and knows where to be!

And a few pages back, I gave you an example from the Liverpool game which you chose to ignore, so ...

 

[The Serpent]

Zirkzee wasn't dangerous? Did you watch the game?

Twisted up Saliba and Jorginho to release Amad on the counter.

Got a shot off at the edge of the box to bring out a brilliant save from Raya. Holund didn't even manage a shot the entire ninety.

Had a run on the counter and should have played the ball earlier to Amad, who by then had unfortunately strayed offside.

He had a better game than Hojlund.

He changed our game when he came on with Amad. That's just a fact.

And the dude has the cheek to be accusing other members of having an agenda

 

[tomaldinho1]

The movement thing is valid. Go watch any of our games from when Hojlund and McT were in the same team. I too bought that 'lack of service' line until I started looking at those kind of games closely. McT is a better striker. He has the better instincts and knows where to be!

And a few pages back, I gave you an example from the Liverpool game which you chose to ignore, so ...

Did I, please put post # here? From what I can see, I replied to you and then you did not respond...I might be wrong, I am asking you to check but I can't see a response.

Might be some egg heading towards your face? Or I will reply when you highlight post #

 

[marcus agrippa]

Did I, please put post # here? From what I can see, I replied to you and then you did not respond...I might be wrong, I am asking you to check but I can't see a response.

Might be some egg heading towards your face? Or I will reply when you highlight post #

Egg? Let's not be childish please. I gave you an instance re: the VVD clearance, and all you did was claim that the snippet was too short to reflect anything, and deflect re: hindsight analysis. I pointed out that the run began well before the action the clip indicated, and that I made the analysis that he should move near post at the time of the play, so no hindsight there.

Look, it's fine that you rate Hojlund. But you can't escape the facts: he doesn't get off enough shots. Even Zirkzee got one off in less time than Hojlund vs Arsenal (he didn't even manage one). Why is that? Could it possibly be because he isn't in the right positions to do that? Could it be that he's too preoccupied by what the defender is doing to take the initiative on the ball? To claim that the 'bad movement' accusation is unjustified when we can see it with our own eyes is laughable frankly. Hell, even Amorim was telling him to curve his runs away from the defender a couple of games ago. And that he takes too many touches. Things we can all literally see.

And as I said, if you like rewatching United games like I do, then watch the ones with both him and McT. It'll put that 'lack of service' line to bed. Was certainly an eyeopener for me.

 

[marcus agrippa]

He's really not. By the eye test he's clearly one of our fastest players (alongside Rashford and Dalot), and from memory last season he said in an interview that he thinks he's the fastest at the club.

The issue is that his movement isn't good enough so he doesn't utilise that speed anywhere near enough. The speed is there though.

I think explosiveness/acceleration to get away from markers is more important. He struggles with that, especially since his game revolves around wrestling. He needs to create separation from his defender and then use his speed. He did it once against Arsenal, so it's possible.

And the dude has the cheek to be accusing other members of having an agenda

It's an attitude I don't understand, re: agendas and player FC. The only dog I got in this fight is United. I don't care about players like that. Do I like some of them? Sure. But the club comes first. Do I want Hojlund to come good? Of course. Do I think he will? No. And I'm stating why we'll probably need to move on. Yet people act like it's personal.

 

[Lyng]

And the dude has the cheek to be accusing other members of having an agenda

your the one accusing people of agendas based on nationality.

 

[Lyng]

Zirkzee wasn't dangerous? Did you watch the game?

Twisted up Saliba and Jorginho to release Amad on the counter.

Got a shot off at the edge of the box to bring out a brilliant save from Raya. Holund didn't even manage a shot the entire ninety.

Had a run on the counter and should have played the ball earlier to Amad, who by then had unfortunately strayed offside.

He had a better game than Hojlund.

He changed our game when he came on with Amad. That's just a fact.



We weren't launching vague long balls. I find it funny that he always seemed a step behind Saliba. It's almost like they had their timings better than he did. He's always preoccupied by the defender, rather than seizing the initiative by attacking the ball.



The thing is, though, I've seen him making much better runs before this season. So it's in there somewhere. Loss of confidence? Hiding?



Think the theme of this thread is that his movement is unlikely to result in his being in Havertz's position to begin with.



The movement thing is valid. Go watch any of our games from when Hojlund and McT were in the same team. I too bought that 'lack of service' line until I started looking at those kind of games closely. McT is a better striker. He has the better instincts and knows where to be!

And a few pages back, I gave you an example from the Liverpool game which you chose to ignore, so ...

Højlund had an awful match so Zirkzee being better was a pretty low bar.

 

[The Serpent]

I think explosiveness/acceleration to get away from markers is more important. He struggles with that, especially since his game revolves around wrestling. He needs to create separation from his defender and then use his speed. He did it once against Arsenal, so it's possible.


It's an attitude I don't understand, re: agendas and player FC. The only dog I got in this fight is United. I don't care about players like that. Do I like some of them? Sure. But the club comes first. Do I want Hojlund to come good? Of course. Do I think he will? No. And I'm stating why we'll probably need to move on. Yet people act like it's personal.

Yep we're on the same page my friend, I actually praised Hojlund for his performance against City, he looked like a striker for once and was doing bits. Then the following game he returned to his usual level. Unfortunately for some this has become Zirkee vs Hojlund battle but it's not even a level playing field considering Zirkee has never been given a run of games, not even been here for a full season, already received stadium abuse and doesn't receive half of the protection and support Hojlund recieves.

I mean there are posters writing full blown final year dissertations on how Hojlund allegedly made a decoy run for Bruno to score even though the guy doesn't even know when to time his own runs to beat the off side trap

 

[tomaldinho1]

Egg? Let's not be childish please. I gave you an instance re: the VVD clearance, and all you did was claim that the snippet was too short to reflect anything, and deflect re: hindsight analysis. I pointed out that the run began well before the action the clip indicated, and that I made the analysis that he should move near post at the time of the play, so no hindsight there.

Look, it's fine that you rate Hojlund. But you can't escape the facts: he doesn't get off enough shots. Even Zirkzee got one off in less time than Hojlund vs Arsenal (he didn't even manage one). Why is that? Could it possibly be because he isn't in the right positions to do that? Could it be that he's too preoccupied by what the defender is doing to take the initiative on the ball? To claim that the 'bad movement' accusation is unjustified when we can see it with our own eyes is laughable frankly. Hell, even Amorim was telling him to curve his runs away from the defender a couple of games ago. And that he takes too many touches. Things we can all literally see.

And as I said, if you like rewatching United games like I do, then watch the ones with both him and McT. It'll put that 'lack of service' line to bed. Was certainly an eyeopener for me.

I personally find accusing people of things they haven't done childish. Call me crazy. No apology?

I rate Hojlund is certain areas - I think his movement is good, his finishing is good and attitude is there. Re Zirkzee getting a shot off, he's coming on against tired players, when Hojlund was subbed on in other games he also looked livelier. They are two very interesting prospects, one much more of a battering ram (Hojlund) and the other a unique mix of size/technique (Zirkzee). As I said to you then if there is a longer clip, I may well change my mind (like why would I care if he made a poor movement or not) I just have never actually seen enough proof it's a thing. I see him make lots of good runs, show for the ball and generally work his CB pair hard throughout a game and then some randomer puts a twitter clip up and says 'look bad movement' and it's literally a clip of him creating space for a goal and it makes me laugh. I can't tell if you are serious with the McT point, he plays a different role and so has completely different challenges to overcome.

For what it's worth, I think he needs to work hard on his touch and mobility, I think he could be leaner which would help him in the air. Same goes for Zirkzee, far too heavy and its visible in how they move.

 

[marcus agrippa]

Yep we're on the same page my friend, I actually praised Hojlund for his performance against City, he looked like a striker for once and was doing bits. Then the following game he returned to his usual level. Unfortunately for some this has become Zirkee vs Hojlund battle but it's not even a level playing field considering Zirkee has never been given a run of games, not even been here for a full season, already received stadium abuse and doesn't receive half of the protection and support Hojlund recieves.

I mean there are posters writing full blown final year dissertations on how Hojlund allegedly made a decoy run for Bruno to score even though the guy doesn't even know when to time his own runs to beat the off side trap

I can only imagine what some of these would be like when we had Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Solskjaer. Different profiles, different ways to hurt the opposition. United benefits, and that's all that matters.

But I honestly don't see what Hojlund brings. I'm more willing to give Zirkzee time given it's his first season.

I personally find accusing people of things they haven't done childish. Call me crazy. No apology?

I rate Hojlund is certain areas - I think his movement is good, his finishing is good and attitude is there. Re Zirkzee getting a shot off, he's coming on against tired players, when Hojlund was subbed on in other games he also looked livelier. They are two very interesting prospects, one much more of a battering ram (Hojlund) and the other a unique mix of size/technique (Zirkzee). As I said to you then if there is a longer clip, I may well change my mind (like why would I care if he made a poor movement or not) I just have never actually seen enough proof it's a thing. I see him make lots of good runs, show for the ball and generally work his CB pair hard throughout a game and then some randomer puts a twitter clip up and says 'look bad movement' and it's literally a clip of him creating space for a goal and it makes me laugh. I can't tell if you are serious with the McT point, he plays a different role and so has completely different challenges to overcome.

For what it's worth, I think he needs to work hard on his touch and mobility, I think he could be leaner which would help him in the air. Same goes for Zirkzee, far too heavy and its visible in how they move.

Honestly don't know what you're on about, but that's cool.

ETH used McT as a second striker when we were chasing games, or don't you remember?

You watch Hojlund against Liverpool, Arsenal and even the veteran Archie Gray of Tottenham and you conclude that he works his markers? Okay, then. Light work, I guess.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Honestly don't know what you're on about, but that's cool.

ETH used McT as a second striker when we were chasing games, or don't you remember?

You watch Hojlund against Liverpool, Arsenal and even the veteran Archie Gray of Tottenham and you conclude that he works his markers? Okay, then. Light work, I guess.

You said:

And a few pages back, I gave you an example from the Liverpool game which you chose to ignore, so ...

Then got a big yolky egg all over your pantheon when you were proved to be making it up.

ETH used him as a SECOND striker, yes, when we started going direct to chase games. His normal position where he scored more goals from was AM. Neither is a CF, nor is McT a CF. It's not the greatest of points this one. Made worse by, if we use last season, Hojlund was our joint top scorer with Bruno, so clearly he did ok?

 

[Denis79]

Kinda hoping he scores one or two vs Southampton, they are leaking goals and Hojlund does ok against weaker teams. This game will be his chance to get some confidence, I hope he takes it.

 

[RopersReturn]

His confidence is completely shot but with extra training, he’ll improve. He’s a big lad so shouldn’t be easily intimidated throwing himself in for crosses and corners.

 

[marcus agrippa]

You said:

Then got a big yolky egg all over your pantheon when you were proved to be making it up.

ETH used him as a SECOND striker, yes, when we started going direct to chase games. His normal position where he scored more goals from was AM. Neither is a CF, nor is McT a CF. It's not the greatest of points this one. Made worse by, if we use last season, Hojlund was our joint top scorer with Bruno, so clearly he did ok?

You honestly think you've proven I've made something up? And what's with the eggs and random mentions of gods and their houses? Make sense!

We are talking about movement. Movement. That specifically, and in the attacking third. Not about goal tally. Please don't move the goalposts. McT highlighted his shortcomings in that area. Last season, Hojlund went through a purple patch where he bagged most of his goals. Thassit. I mean, at some point even ETH realized that it was better to play without him (e.g. the cup final).

Look, I don't care. If he improves, United wins. If he doesn't, he's getting benched or hopefully shipped out so we can get something back before his value depreciates.

 

[RuudTom83]

Needs to score against Southampton to shut a few people up. Europa is back soon as well which is usually a good competition for him.

Get it done Rasmus!

 

[Lyng]

You honestly think you've proven I've made something up? And what's with the eggs and random mentions of gods and their houses? Make sense!

We are talking about movement. Movement. That specifically, and in the attacking third. Not about goal tally. Please don't move the goalposts. McT highlighted his shortcomings in that area. Last season, Hojlund went through a purple patch where he bagged most of his goals. Thassit. I mean, at some point even ETH realized that it was better to play without him (e.g. the cup final).

Look, I don't care. If he improves, United wins. If he doesn't, he's getting benched or hopefully shipped out so we can get something back before his value depreciates.

The McT point has been done to death. The few games where it was only McT he didnt really find those lanes because the opposition was on him.

The only reason goals are not part of your equation is because it suits your narrative. Imagine thinking goals dont matter for a striker.....

I am also not sure this whole Zirkzee vs Højlund debate makes much sense. They are so different. Højlund is much faster and more clinical, while Zirkzee is much better at link up play and a better dribbler, as well as physically better.
The place for both is off the bench. Zirkzee for one of the 10's and Højlund for our new striker which we need.

 

[Longshanks]

He needs to improve and should be dropped for a few weeks IMO with zirkzee given a run in the team.

He isn't good enough and I don't think he ever will be.

 

[Bondi77]

Yesterday, I watched the game with my old man, and he made an interesting point about Hojlund. We tend to compare him to world-class players because, for so many years, we’ve been spoiled with having some of the best strikers in the world. But Hojlund has shown that he isn't destined to become an absolute top-tier player like Haaland, Kane, or Rooney. Instead, he’s more likely to develop into someone on the level of Benteke, Carroll, or Defoe. We need to manage our expectations and stop judging him as though he’s a world-class talent, because he’s not. That said, we still need to bring in another striker to allow him to develop without the added pressure.

Did you watch Defoe play?
If Rasmus ends up being half as good as him then we would be doing well and to put Donkeys like Benteke and Carroll in the same bracket as him is baffling!

 

[Insanity]

He needs to improve and should be dropped for a few weeks IMO with zirkzee given a run in the team.

He isn't good enough and I don't think he ever will be.

Looking more and more that it would be the case. The best he can do for us is to score a few goals that would make one of the middling clubs to make a 40m offer for him.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

The thing is i dont think Zirkzee has to be clinical for us to have a clinical attack.

Garnacho - Zirkzee - Amad
Vs
Mane - Firmnho -Salah
​

Is very similair.

The only issue is if Amorim is willing to change his tactics slightly like Guardiola did to include Haaland instead of a False 9, or Klopp did to include Firminho instead of a clinical striker.

Hojlund however is playing up front by himself with one of the best CAM & a very bright RAM in the league trying to create for him but he gets so little of the ball more because of his poor runs & hold up play because those two are creating chances for the rest of team not so hard.

 

[Lyng]

The thing is i dont think Zirkzee has to be clinical for us to have a clinical attack.

Garnacho - Zirkzee - Amad
Vs
Mane - Firmnho -Salah
​

Is very similair.

The only issue is if Amorim is willing to change his tactics slightly like Guardiola did to include Haaland instead of a False 9, or Klopp did to include Firminho instead of a clinical striker.

Hojlund however is playing up front by himself with one of the best CAM & a very bright RAM in the league trying to create for him but he gets so little of the ball more because of his poor runs & hold up play because those two are creating chances for the rest of team not so hard.

Garnacho is very young and very much not as clinical in front of goal as Mane. Amad is obviously also no way near as much of a goalthreat as Salah, instead he is much more of a creator for others.

We need goals and even if Zirkzee managed to deliver tons of chances to Garnacho and Amad they wouldnt score enough. We need a clinical finisher who can finish off the chances that Bruno and Amad create. Højlunds first touch, age and movement means that he should not be a starter. And Zirkzee is no way near enough of a goal threat to be leading our line either.

 

[Shaw's Shank Redemption]

Garnacho is very young and very much not as clinical in front of goal as Mane. Amad is obviously also no way near as much of a goalthreat as Salah, instead he is much more of a creator for others.

We need goals and even if Zirkzee managed to deliver tons of chances to Garnacho and Amad they wouldnt score enough. We need a clinical finisher who can finish off the chances that Bruno and Amad create. Højlunds first touch, age and movement means that he should not be a starter. And Zirkzee is no way near enough of a goal threat to be leading our line either.

Neither is Hojlund though? He isnt the level of any top striker and he is just as young as the others.

We have seen Hojlund not blending well with both Amad and Garnacho either together or seperately - however we have yet to see Zirkzee given the number of chances to blend in with Garnacho and Amad who can turn in to inverted forwards more than the creators that Hojlund personally needs service from.

I know that all of these players are young and no where near the level of one of Liverpools greatest first xi's - but that doesnt change the fact that our most cohesive front 3 probably doesnt have Hojlund up top right at this moment.

For Hojlund or Gyokeres to work id argue that even Amad needs replacing at RAM sooner rather than later because he isnt creative enough for a striker like Gyokeres and will require Amad or Garnacho to move to wing backs, get a LAM first whilst also targeting more natural WB's etc - which is a hellava lot of work.

The one difference is Gyokeres can make a lot of goals by himself & i think this is the reason some people dont want osihmen.

 

[Denis79]

Did you watch Defoe play?
If Rasmus ends up being half as good as him then we would be doing well and to put Donkeys like Benteke and Carroll in the same bracket as him is baffling!

You're right, comparing him to Carroll might be a bit of a stretch, but Benteke seems to be a fair comparison. He's of a similar standard and represents a solid Premier League striker.

 

[tomaldinho1]

You honestly think you've proven I've made something up? And what's with the eggs and random mentions of gods and their houses? Make sense!

We are talking about movement. Movement. That specifically, and in the attacking third. Not about goal tally. Please don't move the goalposts. McT highlighted his shortcomings in that area. Last season, Hojlund went through a purple patch where he bagged most of his goals. Thassit. I mean, at some point even ETH realized that it was better to play without him (e.g. the cup final).

Look, I don't care. If he improves, United wins. If he doesn't, he's getting benched or hopefully shipped out so we can get something back before his value depreciates.

Just a silly joke given your username, you built the pantheon. But, seriously, you literally accused me of something that was not true. That's not helpful if you actually want to talk about something.

Re McT it's just not a good point. If you want to stand by the fact someone being thrown up top chasing a game, or simply playing in a different position is somehow comparable to a CF, go ahead. I don't think Fellaini has great 'movement' he is just an aggressive, tall, aerial threat. McT is not as tall but he's mobile and also an aerial threat but neither know how to play as a CF.

For clarity, which goals made you think he's got 'great' movement in particular? He scored 7 PL goals last season, they are listed below. Please elaborate.

Brentford (2):

• First goal is a scramble in the box, good touch and finish from an awful clearance.
• Long ball to Maguire nodded back across goal, great header.

Sheffield United:

• Awful ball into his throat area from Bruno but he ends up controlling and finishing it.

Chelsea:

• Rebound off Cucurella from Maguire shot and scores.
• Header from cross which Hojlund literally leaves for him.

Wolves:

• Header from corner.

Villa

• Worldie cross from Dalot, great header back post from McT.

 

[Lyng]

Neither is Hojlund though? He isnt the level of any top striker and he is just as young as the others.

We have seen Hojlund not blending well with both Amad and Garnacho either together or seperately - however we have yet to see Zirkzee given the number of chances to blend in with Garnacho and Amad who can turn in to inverted forwards more than the creators that Hojlund personally needs service from.

I know that all of these players are young and no where near the level of one of Liverpools greatest first xi's - but that doesnt change the fact that our most cohesive front 3 probably doesnt have Hojlund up top right at this moment.

For Hojlund or Gyokeres to work id argue that even Amad needs replacing at RAM sooner rather than later because he isnt creative enough for a striker like Gyokeres and will require Amad or Garnacho to move to wing backs, get a LAM first whilst also targeting more natural WB's etc - which is a hellava lot of work.

The one difference is Gyokeres can make a lot of goals by himself & i think this is the reason some people dont want osihmen.

To the first point, that is what I wrote in my post. Højlunds age and current level means he shouldnt be starting games for us, but rather be understudy to a ready striker, or be loaned out to a different league to learn his craft there.

Given that Amorims best setup has been with a striker like Gyokeres, and that he has been very clear on not wanting to adapt his style to our players but rather vice versa, I just dont see him wanting to change to a system with a false 9.
We have to agree to disagree on Amad as we clearly have a different view on his creative ability.
Gyokeres movement and link up play is much better than Rasmus so I think Amad would automatically get better with him, without having to change tactics.

Garnacho still needs to find his place in the system, but his age means that I am not worried.

 

[Fortitude]

I do get the frustration and disappointment with his game. I don't get the over eagerness to determine what he ever shall be.

For me, the one thing I feel for certain is he's miles off being ready for this kind of gig as the leading striker. But if you were to ask where he'll be in 2-3 years' time or what his final form would be, I haven't a clue.

Truth is, unless you're tracking a special player or have some kind of reason to be following the development of an OK one, you're rarely going to know what a striker with a normal developmental curve looked like when he was putting his game together. If we accept Hojlund is neither prodigious or special in his current or purchased guise and that many others are like that, why would you know what those who burst into life looked like before they... burst into life?

There may be a lot of egg on faces 2-3 years from now. There might not be. Obviously the dilemma for us is we don't have that time to wait. It's a very bizarre predicament and I don't recall a case like it with regards to us. Mostly because we've generally been very good at recruiting forwards and facilitating youngsters and their development into potentially succeeding or usurping those who were initially ahead of them in the pecking order. It's clear as day this case is anomalous and I bet there's been some words behind closed doors about what is to be done about that exactly.

If a £60m+ mature/proven entity comes in, does Hojlund even get to be understudy, or is he sold/loaned? I would actually love to be a fly on the wall at the club in relation to the discussions about what we do with him going into the summer.

 

[Roane]

The biggest problem I see with Hojlund is his worry about what others are doing. Others being opposition players.

Whether he is defending in our box during corners, wrestling with players and not even facing the ball or when we play a long ball to him, he is looking over his shoulder at the defender then crouching, holding and backing into the defender.

What he needs to focus on is his own strengths. A presence in the box, with his height and strength. Face the ball and attack it if it's in your zone. Almost forget about the opposition player. Win the ball.

Similarly when up front look at the ball, forget the guy around you. Win that ball. Use your strength and touch, which he does have when you look at a couple of the goals he scored.

One other thing is his pressing in the opposition half. There is a marked difference to what Amad does (and gets success) and what Rasmus does. Rasmus basically "pretends" to press.

 

[Lynty]

Young striker, still learning his trade who should really only be getting 30mins every week and cup games (same can be said of Garnacho)

 

[Gregawa]

I feel like the amount of leeway Garnacho gets should also be applied to Rasmus. There's clearly a player there.

 

[marcus agrippa]

Just a silly joke given your username, you built the pantheon. But, seriously, you literally accused me of something that was not true. That's not helpful if you actually want to talk about something.

Re McT it's just not a good point. If you want to stand by the fact someone being thrown up top chasing a game, or simply playing in a different position is somehow comparable to a CF, go ahead. I don't think Fellaini has great 'movement' he is just an aggressive, tall, aerial threat. McT is not as tall but he's mobile and also an aerial threat but neither know how to play as a CF.

For clarity, which goals made you think he's got 'great' movement in particular? He scored 7 PL goals last season, they are listed below. Please elaborate.

Brentford (2):

• First goal is a scramble in the box, good touch and finish from an awful clearance.
• Long ball to Maguire nodded back across goal, great header.

Sheffield United:

• Awful ball into his throat area from Bruno but he ends up controlling and finishing it.

Chelsea:

• Rebound off Cucurella from Maguire shot and scores.
• Header from cross which Hojlund literally leaves for him.

Wolves:

• Header from corner.

Villa

• Worldie cross from Dalot, great header back post from McT.

Really?

I simply saw a repeat of your previous waffle: "the clip is too short, if there was a longer clip, then I might change my mind". Though we both know that isn't true, because I've told you exactly how the entire play evolved, which you can actually confirm if you really went looking for it. So please don't try to finesse me with convenient ignorance/some variety of No True Scotsman, then claim you didn't ignore the point.

Re: McT, I said it first in jest then in all seriousness, and I'll do you one better: (I trust these clips are of sufficient length?)



@ timestamps: 1:12 ('Ian Wright position'), 1:28 (near post, in crosser's eyeline), 2:16 (far post, aggressively in ahead of Hojlund), 2:24 (what does Hojlund hope to scavenge from that position, seriously?), 2:47 (ditto!), 2:53 ('Ian Wright position', crosser's eyeline again).

I've only chosen the ones with both on the pitch, and where Hojlund could do more (e.g. I've ignored one corner kick, because Hojlund's probably - stupidly IMO - under instructions to pin the goalkeeper).

(If you hate the McT reference, you will really, really hate what I have to say about Licha's finish vs. Hojlund's from a near-identical position vs. Liverpool. A top striker absolutely laces that like Licha!)

Would love to be proven wrong, but we need someone right now who can hold the ball up, score a decent number of goals, has a good touch, and great movement and aggression to work defenders properly. He just doesn't do that enough. Not sure about Osimhen, but it's no wonder we're still being linked with strikers despite signing two the last two summers and playing a one-striker system.

Aside: assumed Hadrian built the Pantheon. Guess I was mistaken. But let's not derail the thread with that.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Really?

I simply saw a repeat of your previous waffle: "the clip is too short, if there was a longer clip, then I might change my mind". Though we both know that isn't true, because I've told you exactly how the entire play evolved, which you can actually confirm if you really went looking for it. So please don't try to finesse me with convenient ignorance/some variety of No True Scotsman, then claim you didn't ignore the point.

Re: McT, I said it first in jest then in all seriousness, and I'll do you one better: (I trust these clips are of sufficient length?)



@ timestamps: 1:12 ('Ian Wright position'), 1:28 (near post, in crosser's eyeline), 2:16 (far post, aggressively in ahead of Hojlund), 2:24 (what does Hojlund hope to scavenge from that position, seriously?), 2:47 (ditto!), 2:53 ('Ian Wright position', crosser's eyeline again).

I've only chosen the ones with both on the pitch, and where Hojlund could do more (e.g. I've ignored one corner kick, because Hojlund's probably - stupidly IMO - under instructions to pin the goalkeeper).

(If you hate the McT reference, you will really, really hate what I have to say about Licha's finish vs. Hojlund's from a near-identical position vs. Liverpool. A top striker absolutely laces that like Licha!)

Would love to be proven wrong, but we need someone right now who can hold the ball up, score a decent number of goals, has a good touch, and great movement and aggression to work defenders properly. He just doesn't do that enough. Not sure about Osimhen, but it's no wonder we're still being linked with strikers despite signing two the last two summers and playing a one-striker system.

Aside: assumed Hadrian built the Pantheon. Guess I was mistaken. But let's not derail the thread with that.

First para. Yes - my point is I want to see it to then form an opinion, I have no idea who you are so why would I trust how you 'told (me) exactly how the entire play evolved'? I have no idea who the Scotsman is.

Timestamps, ok good. This is stuff we can actually analyse:
1.12 - I'm so lost how you think this shows what you are saying? Both players are making good runs, McT gets a rebound off the keeper.
1.28 - really good goal, again though near vs far, why would you want Hojlund fighting for the same space as McT? Unless you mean he doesn't ever run near post and score, in which case go watch some of his goals last season.
2.16 - turn up your volume, McT shouts for it. Hojlund leaves it. Pretty sure Dalot could also have scored. Seems odd to criticise him for being in the right position?
2.24 - you're genuinely asking what he could scavenge from holding his run and being unmarked on the penalty spot? All the set pieces the players will have set positions/roles anyway.
2.47 - this one, to me, reveals a lack of football experience or a carelessness in how you want to analyse things. Freeze the clip the moment it cuts to the play. Hojlund is being obstructed by two opposition players, one of them even appears to be literally holding him with both hands. The only criticism here is he should probably go down as there is a bit of a trip from behind him. But you watch that clip and ask yourself what he can scavange with no thought to the wider benefits of how having 2 men mark 1 helps the team, or him being fouled. Explain?
2.53 - watch the Coventry highlights of this one, your clip doesn't show it. A CF would never be able to make the run McT makes. Hojlund doesn't even do anything special he just does what he should and pulls both their CBs back with him and McT leaves his marker for dead.

You've specified we're talking about movement and now bring up Licha's goal?? It was a wonderful finish but how on earth are you applying a CB running forwards to the situation a CF would find himself in? I have criticised Hojlund for not putting that chance away, and the one versus Arsenal previously but, to quote you:

We are talking about movement. Movement.

What I don't understand is there seems to be no interest/knowledge of how a CF's job/position would be different to others players, or how a CF would make room by doing really simple things. It would be like me posting a video of Joelinton's goals - a tall, mobile runner who arrives from midfield in the box and scores a good amount of goals from set pieces - and saying 'look, he's got better movement than this CF'. It's just a compete nothing take.

 

[marcus agrippa]

First para. Yes - my point is I want to see it to then form an opinion, I have no idea who you are so why would I trust how you 'told (me) exactly how the entire play evolved'? I have no idea who the Scotsman is.

Timestamps, ok good. This is stuff we can actually analyse:
1.12 - I'm so lost how you think this shows what you are saying? Both players are making good runs, McT gets a rebound off the keeper.
1.28 - really good goal, again though near vs far, why would you want Hojlund fighting for the same space as McT? Unless you mean he doesn't ever run near post and score, in which case go watch some of his goals last season.
2.16 - turn up your volume, McT shouts for it. Hojlund leaves it. Pretty sure Dalot could also have scored. Seems odd to criticise him for being in the right position?
2.24 - you're genuinely asking what he could scavenge from holding his run and being unmarked on the penalty spot? All the set pieces the players will have set positions/roles anyway.
2.47 - this one, to me, reveals a lack of football experience or a carelessness in how you want to analyse things. Freeze the clip the moment it cuts to the play. Hojlund is being obstructed by two opposition players, one of them even appears to be literally holding him with both hands. The only criticism here is he should probably go down as there is a bit of a trip from behind him. But you watch that clip and ask yourself what he can scavange with no thought to the wider benefits of how having 2 men mark 1 helps the team, or him being fouled. Explain?
2.53 - watch the Coventry highlights of this one, your clip doesn't show it. A CF would never be able to make the run McT makes. Hojlund doesn't even do anything special he just does what he should and pulls both their CBs back with him and McT leaves his marker for dead.

You've specified we're talking about movement and now bring up Licha's goal?? It was a wonderful finish but how on earth are you applying a CB running forwards to the situation a CF would find himself in? I have criticised Hojlund for not putting that chance away, and the one versus Arsenal previously but, to quote you:


What I don't understand is there seems to be no interest/knowledge of how a CF's job/position would be different to others players, or how a CF would make room by doing really simple things. It would be like me posting a video of Joelinton's goals - a tall, mobile runner who arrives from midfield in the box and scores a good amount of goals from set pieces - and saying 'look, he's got better movement than this CF'. It's just a compete nothing take.

No True Scotsman is an informal logical fallacy. Feel free to look it up. And don't deflect. I told you what play in what game. It's up to you if you really want to find it. You don't have to take my word for it. Just don't claim ignorance and declare the evidence too nonideal to make other than a positive judgement in your favour.

1:12 is about where you position yourself. I call it the 'Ian Wright' because that's one of the positions he said to take in answer to the question: how come you always seemed to be in the right position to score scruffy goals? Interesting because Hojlund has a knack for not being there, or seeming to be a step behind surrounded by defenders.

1:28 pretty self-evident.

2:16 turn up what volume? All I hear is music, so your claim doesn't fit the evidence. And: what lethal striker is pulling out in that (better!) position anyway? You speak of me 'not knowing a CF's role' , well, that's the job! Get your head on that!

2:24: McT anticipates where the header is likely to land. I mean, look at their respective positions at the instant Maguire heads the ball. Instincts!

2:47: I mean, what are you talking about? 'Being obstructed'? You need to create separation between you and your markers. Look at where the ball is going, look at when Garnacho makes contact, and look where Hojlund is!

2:53: maybe, but the point is that Hojlund is nowhere near posing a threat to those defenders.

The Licha goal was so obviously tongue-in-cheek and a side-quip, or can't you work that out (hint: it's in parenthesis)? He finished it with the conviction that I'd want to see from my striker in that position, that's all.

Sorry, all I see is someone going to great lengths to make excuses for a player who could do so much better, and who has shown he can (see previous clip I posted showing better movement - I imagine it'll be long enough this time!). So he's clearly regressed from what he was. Hope he has people telling him some home-truths, or he's not gonna last long here, and we'll be out of pocket again with more deadwood to shift.

That's me done here.

 

[Brazilian_Ronaldo_9]

We do not have time. Actually time is not on our side. We need someone who will perform yesterday already.

Unfortunately Zirkzee did perform yesterday despite the formers previous form.

 

[The Serpent]

No True Scotsman is an informal logical fallacy. Feel free to look it up. And don't deflect. I told you what play in what game. It's up to you if you really want to find it. You don't have to take my word for it. Just don't claim ignorance and declare the evidence too nonideal to make other than a positive judgement in your favour.

1:12 is about where you position yourself. I call it the 'Ian Wright' because that's one of the positions he said to take in answer to the question: how come you always seemed to be in the right position to score scruffy goals? Interesting because Hojlund has a knack for not being there, or seeming to be a step behind surrounded by defenders.

1:28 pretty self-evident.

2:16 turn up what volume? All I hear is music, so your claim doesn't fit the evidence. And: what lethal striker is pulling out in that (better!) position anyway? You speak of me 'not knowing a CF's role' , well, that's the job! Get your head on that!

2:24: McT anticipates where the header is likely to land. I mean, look at their respective positions at the instant Maguire heads the ball. Instincts!

2:47: I mean, what are you talking about? 'Being obstructed'? You need to create separation between you and your markers. Look at where the ball is going, look at when Garnacho makes contact, and look where Hojlund is!

2:53: maybe, but the point is that Hojlund is nowhere near posing a threat to those defenders.

The Licha goal was so obviously tongue-in-cheek and a side-quip, or can't you work that out (hint: it's in parenthesis)? He finished it with the conviction that I'd want to see from my striker in that position, that's all.

Sorry, all I see is someone going to great lengths to make excuses for a player who could do so much better, and who has shown he can (see previous clip I posted showing better movement - I imagine it'll be long enough this time!). So he's clearly regressed from what he was. Hope he has people telling him some home-truths, or he's not gonna last long here, and we'll be out of pocket again with more deadwood to shift.

That's me done here.

I wouldn't waste your time, just let it play out , it's obvious to anyone who's watched football long enough to know Hojlund is a basic run of the mill striker who lacks any elite qualities. The Hojlund fans are like the Ten Hag supporters, they will dig and look for any small evidence of quality to claim it's evidence of world potential elite quality due to the time, money and emotional energy they invested into the player.

Only when we get a real talented striker in will people realise how much we are being held back in attack by having this guy as our main striker just like now it's only now we have a proper man manager to realise you don't need 3 years to implement a style of play. You don't need to wait until a player turns 25 to know if they have the ingredients to be a world class player

I regularly watch true wonder kid potential talent like Samu, Sesko and Carmada for Milan and I've never read on their supporters forum, reading long winded excuses and praise for imaginary decoy runs or ''occupying defenders'' and them needing a more experienced striker to learn how to control a football.

 

[MiceOnMeth]

To be in a position where a 21 year old prospect is our main striker is such gross mismanagement
€70m pricetag on his shoulder too to go with it the pressure must be immense