Rashford and Martial are a problem

croadyman said:
Tony doesn't play games for me until he shows that he has the hunger to play for this club
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And why does rashford get the free pass, english, playing at bob geldof, (funny thing bout that, its what he ex drug dealing agent also did when he wanted to improve his name and status) as he never tracks back, gives the ball away and waves his arms about ordering people to run, yet he won't, and when he does get the ball half the time he looks for the backwards safe pass.
 
Freak said:
They both have been a problem for years now. The problem we have is we don’t have anyone capable who can challenge them except Cavani. This is why we should go all out and get either Grealish or Sancho or someone. Rashford and Martial should not be without proper competition to their places in the first eleven.

I would go as far as to say Martial should be sold. I’ve had enough of him.
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The last thing we need is a spice boy or another wildly inconsistent youngster.

We need a forward in his prime if we want to win things
 
Falcow said:
Plenty old enough unfortunately. Dont know, I take you point, he has age on his side and I guess Nani had better players around him but Nani was for me a better wide player than Rashford, who is considered more striker than winger and vica versa for Nani so apples and oranges I guess as well.

Yeah he may gone on to have the better career but he needs to show improvement.
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Agree with you in general. I think the difference between nani and rashford is nani qas a genuinely talented technical footballer, who had erratic decision making and workrate. Rashford is one of the worst players in terms of basic ball control, technical consistency, passing , and even other basic skills like heading that ive seen wear the 10 shirt which used to be given to the best technician.

Thanks to his mediocre technical ability he will always be inconsistent as you never know whether the ball will bobble off him or a big touch would run the ball out of play.

Due to his athleticism and decent positioning and the way we set up to allow him to runoff the shoulder he gets many chances, but his composure and finishing is bad. He has a good technical shot but poor finishing in general.

He is just too limited a footballer to be first choice in a top team.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Supremely talented players and when they play well we look superb going forward. But, let’s be honest, they’ve been pretty rubbish so far this season. At the end of the day they are both very inconsistent. So is it any surprise that our attacking football is inconsistent too?

I think a team can carry one “yong and lernin” player up front but we shouldn’t be so reliant on two of them. And not without a really top quality, third attacker - in his prime - up front with them (i.e. someone considerably better than James or Mata)

Are there any other top teams so reliant on young/flaky players in such important positions?

Discuss.
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I don't see them as a problem. Our biggest problem is still that right flank. It makes us attempt to use Martial and Rashford on that flank contributing to their inconsistency.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Marcus Rashford was 22 years old at the start of this season. Think about that for a moment. Then think about where all those players on that list were playing football at the same age. The penny will drop, eventually.
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You can often tell the likely trajectory of a player long before their peak. He’s 22 but he’s has had a lot of top level exposure. Coming though our academy is the only reason why people think he will become top class with age. Deep down we both suspect this site will be full of people saying the same thing when he’s 29 if he’s still at the club then.

“He’ll come good he just needs time “

Martial won’t get that level of protection as he isn’t an academy player. Memories of the Class of 92 means too many fans are afraid of not backing academy players. Which is great but more often than not over the years has led to many ridiculous situations where Cleverley, Welbeck, Richardson, Lingard and many more have been given the exact same treatment Rashford is now despitelooking back it was undeniable for a long timebefore people admitted it that they were, relatively, poor players for this level.

There’s giving people time and there’s refusing to see what’s obvious. With both players there’s really very unlikely to be a sudden improvement based on the fact neither look like a player a couple of improvements away from being beasts. They look like players who struggle far too much far too often with fairly basic stuff.

Writing off young players too soon is bad. So is “let’s not judge them at all until they’re 29” though
 
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Dont start the pair of them together. Rashfords been less crap so he's LW, Martials his understudy for me. Watching the pair of them and there shite effort and half arsed attitude at the same time is sickening. God knows whats going on with Rashford, he used to be right up for it, even if he was out of form, he still put the effort in, but dosnt look like he can be arsed recently.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I don't see them as a problem. Our biggest problem is still that right flank. It makes us attempt to use Martial and Rashford on that flank contributing to their inconsistency.
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so true. If our right wasn’t so redundant, we wouldn’t be forced to attack constantly down the left and subsequently relieve the burden from Rashford/Martial. That said they have both been poor for a while now.

I’m not suggesting Amad is our saviour but I can’t wait to see him on the right. An actual outlet on that side would do wonders for our attacking balance. Not helped however by AWB being awful going forward
 
Pughnichi said:
so true. If our right wasn’t so redundant, we wouldn’t be forced to attack constantly down the left and subsequently relieve the burden from Rashford/Martial. That said they have both been poor for a while now.

I’m not suggesting Amad is our saviour but I can’t wait to see him on the right. An actual outlet on that side would do wonders for our attacking balance. Not helped however by AWB being awful going forward
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Maybe the problem is that Martial is a bit shit?
 
I think that Martial’s attitude problem is a result of everything coming too easy for him at a young age.

Think about it. The lad was transferred for £7m at 16 back in about 2012/2013 which would have been huge money then. The hype would have been insane. It would have been hard for a 16yo not to let that go to his head.

Then he is transferred to Utd for a fee that could reach over £50m at 18. Scores a fantastic goal on his debut against our biggest rivals in-front of the Stretford End. Once again, all just seems to be happening very naturally and easy for him.

Somewhere around the 19/20 mark, it stopped being so easy and he started having to work hard and that’s when I believe his progress stalled. He’s doesn’t want to run or fight or work-hard when the going gets tough.

I say it constantly to myself and to teammates when I am playing football - if you’re having a bad game and your touch is off, claw yourself into the game by working twice as hard.

Win a header. Win a tackle. Close an opponent down and force a mistake. Sprint back. Sprint forward. Block a shot. None of these things require talent or for you to be on top of your game. If you do those things, even if you continue to struggle with the ball at least you will be contributing. Best case, you gain confidence and start playing really well with and without the ball.

Martial doesn’t do any of that. You can tell whether he is going to have a good or a bad game by his body language. Skulking about the pitch. Idle demeanour. Doesn’t sprint, in fact, barely raises a jog. Hold up play weak...and he just gives up.

I think its time for some tough love. I appreciate that in the modern game players are different and its harder to bend them to your will by force. However, look at the difference in Pogba after Ole left him out for a few weeks. The message is clear - we’re Man Utd, you play our way or you don’t play, whoever you are.
 
Cavani coming in has really shown Martial up. IMO. Before that, I’d take his lack of movement in and around the box and him being less than clinical because he’d improved his work rate a bit, was better at holding up the ball and to be fair to him, had a decent return last year. I always thought that his shortcomings didn’t matter because he’d kick on even more the following year. The truth of the matter, after seeing what we’ve been missing with someone who truly puts in a shift, has incredible movement and has real strikers instincts, is that Martial is never going to be that. He can’t/won’t learn what Cavani has, his dribbling skills will always blow hot and cold and it seems his progression/regression cycle is here to stay.

I really like him as a player and I wanted him to be a world beater but there comes a time, and he’s 25 now, where you’ve got to say “this is what he is”. I’d be happy for him to be in the team and squads but I do think we should have an eye on improving on him.

Rashford is a different story IMO. He’s far more influential in our play and defenders are terrified of him. He blows hot and cold, sure, but he’s been messed around positionally even more than Martial has. I actually think he’s the more clínical of the two as well, even though the narrative seems to be the opposite. He’s a bit younger so there’s more of a chance he gains the level of consistency we hope he can.
 
Make Rashford and Martial compete for a place. Hopefully they both improve.

Competition worked for Shaw (Telles), it worked for Pogba (Bruno/VDB), heck it even worked for a while for De Gea (Henderson).

The reason we don't do this is that we don't have a good RW. I don't think Ole can face playing James with Rashford/Martial on the bench.
 
stw2022 said:
You can often tell the likely trajectory of a player long before their peak. He’s 22 but he’s has had a lot of top level exposure. Coming though our academy is the only reason why people think he will become top class with age. Deep down we both suspect this site will be full of people saying the same thing when he’s 29 if he’s still at the club then.

“He’ll come good he just needs time “

Martial won’t get that level of protection as he isn’t an academy player. Memories of the Class of 92 means too many fans are afraid of not backing academy players. Which is great but more often than not over the years has led to many ridiculous situations where Cleverley, Welbeck, Richardson, Lingard and many more have been given the exact same treatment Rashford is now despitelooking back it was undeniable for a long timebefore people admitted it that they were, relatively, poor players for this level.

There’s giving people time and there’s refusing to see what’s obvious. With both players there’s really very unlikely to be a sudden improvement based on the fact neither look like a player a couple of improvements away from being beasts. They look like players who struggle far too much far too often with fairly basic stuff.

Writing off young players too soon is bad. So is “let’s not judge them at all until they’re 29” though
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Even if you never watched Rashford play his goals and assists stats show a trajectory that is perfectly satisfactory. And way better than we ever saw with, say, Welbeck. Obviously, breaking his fecking back halfway through last season isn’t ideal for the development of any young footballer. Hence he should be cut a bit of slack. And that means not lumping him in with a bunch of former players who never came close to his sustained contributions to the team, after a his first rough patch for the team.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I don't see them as a problem. Our biggest problem is still that right flank. It makes us attempt to use Martial and Rashford on that flank contributing to their inconsistency.
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This is what I was thinking soon.

Either Martial's form has effected Greenwood or Greenwood's form has effected Martial.

It's probably a mix of both but I'm not surprised our ST and LW hasnt kicked on this year or looked consistent when our RW isnt looking great either; that's 2/3rds of our front line struggling.

I want Haaland here just like everyone- but I think I'm pretty confident that Haaland playing in the middle of Rashford and Greenwood would be struggling for created chances especially for a striker regarded many to be a poacher. Greenwood being off form would only make it worse. We need to change it up.
 
Ideally, Rashford and Martial should be competing for the LW spot and that's it. Whoever's on form plays. Right now that means Rashford plays, and Martial is benched. None of them should be in discussion for either CF or RW.

In itself, that's the LW sorted with good strength in depth. And as such, they both have a role to play - one starter, one backup. No need to get rid of either.

The rest is about having other options for CF and RW. More viable options for RW also means there's already a backup option for CF in Greenwood. So RW is crucial.
 
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oops, messed up my repl

Wanted to say I disagree his trajectory is satisfactory
 
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Lentwood said:
I think that Martial’s attitude problem is a result of everything coming too easy for him at a young age.

Think about it. The lad was transferred for £7m at 16 back in about 2012/2013 which would have been huge money then. The hype would have been insane. It would have been hard for a 16yo not to let that go to his head.

Then he is transferred to Utd for a fee that could reach over £50m at 18. Scores a fantastic goal on his debut against our biggest rivals in-front of the Stretford End. Once again, all just seems to be happening very naturally and easy for him.

Somewhere around the 19/20 mark, it stopped being so easy and he started having to work hard and that’s when I believe his progress stalled. He’s doesn’t want to run or fight or work-hard when the going gets tough.

I say it constantly to myself and to teammates when I am playing football - if you’re having a bad game and your touch is off, claw yourself into the game by working twice as hard.

Win a header. Win a tackle. Close an opponent down and force a mistake. Sprint back. Sprint forward. Block a shot. None of these things require talent or for you to be on top of your game. If you do those things, even if you continue to struggle with the ball at least you will be contributing. Best case, you gain confidence and start playing really well with and without the ball.

Martial doesn’t do any of that. You can tell whether he is going to have a good or a bad game by his body language. Skulking about the pitch. Idle demeanour. Doesn’t sprint, in fact, barely raises a jog. Hold up play weak...and he just gives up.

I think its time for some tough love. I appreciate that in the modern game players are different and its harder to bend them to your will by force. However, look at the difference in Pogba after Ole left him out for a few weeks. The message is clear - we’re Man Utd, you play our way or you don’t play, whoever you are.
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Tbf, he was never a grafter, our Tony. This should pretty clear by now to anyone concerned. I keep reading people's comments about how Cavani, at 33, runs, tackles and covers the whole pitch like he's got a second pair of lungs in him. He always did that though, it has always been a part of his mindset as a footballer and he has kept his body in good shape so that he can continue doing it. Sometimes, it's just a matter of perspective. You wouldn't ask Berbatov to track back fullbacks and outmuscle the brawny British centre-halves, would you? And even if you wished for it and implored him to do it, your prayers would probably fall on deaf ears. Some footballers, some people in general, are what they are. There's no point berating them for this.

We look at Martial's case like he's some novelty right in front of our eyes when in truth his case is not unusual. He's just another one on that long list of footballers who believe they're just too good to share any of the heavy-lifting. Martial was feeling this way when he was a teenager at Monaco and he forced Ranieri to take him off a game 20 minutes after he had subbed him in. Now, with football at the highest level being a ruthlessly antagonistic environment, this attitude, in various degrees, isn't a negative thing per se. It's just that you have to deliver the goods in order to be given a free pass. I mean, to exaggerate a bit, Messi and Ronaldo rarely give two fecks about their defensive duties but it's well documented that they can carry their respective sides to multiple league titles and CL trophies. At United, Cantona, often enjoyed liberties on and off the pitch but he was a pivotal figure in the team's resurgence. Giggs used to have some prolonged spells of bad form and for the most part of his United career (mainly after Sharpe was shipped out) he never had any serious competition (another thing people claim to be the problem) for his spot on the left. But, overall, he did his part in what is undoubtedly United's best period in history. Evra, just a position behind him at left back, is exactly the same. And that's why the gaffer was hesitant to let them or Scholes or anybody else he valued leave the club.

Now, the grandmaster is retired and the rest of the gang are trying to carbon-copy his methods. Yes, show loyalty to the players who enjoy wearing the shirt. Give more chances and persist on academy players. And, by all means, be very thorough and picky with characters/personalities on whom you spent your transfer budget. But also have in the back of your head that this isn't a blind man's guide on how to make United successful again. It is the result of hard-earned trust -between SAF and his players- which was shaped through friction and the strife to become the best. And it was granted after the club was where it should be and not before. The club made a stupid decision when it offered Martial (and Rashford) their new deals. At this level, you can't reward potential with a top-class player's wages. Either because you're placing too much burden and responsibility on the shoulders of players who can't bear it or because, in the possibility of said players not delivering as you hoped they would, you won't have the cash to fix the problem.

Some people on here complain about Martial constantly starting games for us. I say that Solskjaer is doing the right thing since the club has forced itself to the corner with him. To what degree Solskjaer agreed with the new deal, i don't know. He was the manager when Martial signed his new contract but, allegedly, he also pushed very hard for Haaland. But now, we have to hope that Martial regains at least some semblance of form. Good luck with the tough love treatment but i'm afraid it's a bit too late for that. We handed him a prodigious new deal and made him one of the top earners because he scored 17 league goals, most of which were scored when the whole team was flying and even Matic looked like a world-class holding midfielder again. Martial wasn't ever hard-working and he consistently neglected his defensive duties, he always sulked when facing competition for his place and he always had a nonchalant attitude on the pitch. And judging by our measly tally of 66 goals and the fact that we couldn't create a decent chance to save our lives before the arrival of Bruno, we can presume that he's among the culprits for the lack of chance creation up front. And being his usual self earned him a quarter of a million pounds per week. Why should he change his attitude?

And it's not like he doesn't care. I believe he does care for the club. It's just who he is as a player. The fact that the fans (and perhaps the club going by some tweets) realized that after showering him with money is on us and not on him. So, now cross fingers and hope he rediscovers his finishing skills before the top-four race becomes a struggle.
 
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As a city fan martial does not strike fear into me, cavani does and rashford does because he plays well more often than martial does.
Why doesn't Mata get more minutes? He's a great player, never still and very clever, him and Bruno in advanced positions would be a great combo
 
Freak said:
The spice boy is in his prime and has been much more productive than either Martial or Rashford has.
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He might be the player we need but is he the person we need?

How many breaches of guidelines etc has he made in the last year? Is he really who we want to set a professional example?
 
I appreciate the point that @redevilsadvocate is making. That said, if a player with whatever attitudes and attributes consistently fails to deliver end product, he needs to be benched.

Maybe that benching can be brief. Perhaps a few matches off can light a fire so that when Martial comes on the 76th minute and turns in a worthy performance, he can go back to the starting XI. But we — well, the manager — can’t allow this kind of shocking form to plague the rest of this season and through next season.
 
Lentwood said:
I think that Martial’s attitude problem is a result of everything coming too easy for him at a young age.

Think about it. The lad was transferred for £7m at 16 back in about 2012/2013 which would have been huge money then. The hype would have been insane. It would have been hard for a 16yo not to let that go to his head.

Then he is transferred to Utd for a fee that could reach over £50m at 18. Scores a fantastic goal on his debut against our biggest rivals in-front of the Stretford End. Once again, all just seems to be happening very naturally and easy for him.

Somewhere around the 19/20 mark, it stopped being so easy and he started having to work hard and that’s when I believe his progress stalled. He’s doesn’t want to run or fight or work-hard when the going gets tough.

I say it constantly to myself and to teammates when I am playing football - if you’re having a bad game and your touch is off, claw yourself into the game by working twice as hard.

Win a header. Win a tackle. Close an opponent down and force a mistake. Sprint back. Sprint forward. Block a shot. None of these things require talent or for you to be on top of your game. If you do those things, even if you continue to struggle with the ball at least you will be contributing. Best case, you gain confidence and start playing really well with and without the ball.

Martial doesn’t do any of that. You can tell whether he is going to have a good or a bad game by his body language. Skulking about the pitch. Idle demeanour. Doesn’t sprint, in fact, barely raises a jog. Hold up play weak...and he just gives up.

I think its time for some tough love. I appreciate that in the modern game players are different and its harder to bend them to your will by force. However, look at the difference in Pogba after Ole left him out for a few weeks. The message is clear - we’re Man Utd, you play our way or you don’t play, whoever you are.
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Good post. Maybe this is it. He just doesn't have that fight in him, it seems. Not really sure what can be done.
 
lex talionis said:
I appreciate the point that @redevilsadvocate is making. That said, if a player with whatever attitudes and attributes consistently fails to deliver end product, he needs to be benched.

Maybe that benching can be brief. Perhaps a few matches off can light a fire so that when Martial comes on the 76th minute and turns in a worthy performance, he can go back to the starting XI. But we — well, the manager — can’t allow this kind of shocking form to plague the rest of this season and through next season.
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Just to be clear, i'm not saying that he doesn't deserve the bench. I'm suggesting that we've gone into the season expecting Martial to be able to lead the line and therefore the manager's insistence on him makes sense. At least until next summer when we'll be able to reassess our plan.
 
At the moment Martial would be 3rd choice striker for me behind Cavani and Greenwood.

I think what really appeals about Sancho or whoever coming in on the right is that a right footed winger on the right would stretch the game in a way that doesn’t happen with Greenwood or Mata or potentially Diallo. It’s one thing playing inside forwards on both wings when you have Alexander-Arnold and Robertson delivering. It’s completely different if you have Shaw and AWB who rarely provide quality from the wings (Shaws improvement not withstanding).
 
Both are not very good at attacking the ball when it comes in the box.
 
We need natural wide players. Neither are suited to the wide forward role. You see Shaw’s contribution from left back, getting the ball wide and getting it in or driving at the defence with purpose. This is what the two should do but don’t. Martial just stands and watches Shaw like he’s memorised by his massive arse and Rashford is just in the world of his own where rarely he looks as if he’s even aware he has team mates.

We need specialist wide men and play Cavani and Greenwood though the middle
 
I think Ole knows this himself.

I think we will try to move Martial on in the summer and get a real #9.
 
They both are great players but have a mentality of 10 years old spoiled and pampered kids.
 
Case in point again tonight. So many squandered chances and just not clinical enough.

Moments of brilliance, more so from Rashford (not on about tonight’s game) but I don’t think either can take us back to the title leading the line.
 
Fed up of both of them playing like they're fecking kids. Need to shit or get off the pot. It's no good playing one good game, three bad. We can't afford two passengers.
 
Yep. Time to grow up a bit and take responsibility. Both of them just throwing chances into the bin and looking nonplus in the process.
 
At least Martial was getting involved and making an effort, even if it wasn’t coming off for him. Was far better on the left after Cavani came on.

Rashford on the other hand, disappeared more and more from the game in the 2nd half onwards and was making almost no effort at all, just jogging aimlessly, not supporting his team mates in the press or carrying out any defensive duties upfield.
When he got the ball, more often than not chose to run into a blind alley or just pass it backwards.
Fergy would never have stood for that sort of display and the hairdryer would have blown a fuse.

As many others have said, we’re not going to be challenging for titles with these two.
Neither is good enough.
 
Let them fight it out for ONE place and get a striker and a rightwinger in if Ole doesn't trust Amad.

Incredible that players are allowed such a poor from over such a long period like these two.
 
Martial becoming bit to lazy for me, his movement not what it once was. Doesn't want to run unless it's put at his feet. Another player for me that I would move on in the summer.
 
Heardy said:
Case in point again tonight. So many squandered chances and just not clinical enough.

Moments of brilliance, more so from Rashford (not on about tonight’s game) but I don’t think either can take us back to the title leading the line.
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Yeah, as per the OP, it’s a real problem. Having two players up front in 90% of our games who both regularly stink the place up is incompatible with winning the league.

We can carry Rashford through a dip in form. We can carry Martial through a dip in form. Carrying both of them really fecks us up.
 
Rashford is worth carrying through dodgy form due to the fact he'll still provide something, Martial isn't. I can't be bothered to watch him every week anymore, I'm too tired for it.
 
Someone get Martial some SSRI's.

And Rashford, i don't know, get him some pussy maybe?

They suck the life out of me.

Just hope Mason steers clear of them, maybe it's contagious.
 
Has martial ever played from the right under ole? I know he was shifted there under Jose after Sanchez signed and wasn’t happy about it but can’t recall ole playing him there. Always seems rashford plays there or is moved there to accommodate martial, I think a lot of rashfords game is blocked when coming from the right, granted the same could be said for martial but seems odd we’ve never tried it
 
Judas said:
Rashford is worth carrying through dodgy form due to the fact he'll still provide something, Martial isn't. I can't be bothered to watch him every week anymore, I'm too tired for it.
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Does he? Rashford is miles off at the moment while walking about the pitch (even though people seem to still think it's Martial that's the lazy one). Sure he hits one nice cross every now and then, but is also offsides 5 times a game a dribbles selfishly another 10 times a game.

I know this place reveres Rashford miles more than Martial, but my goodness it's obvious to me which one was worse today
 
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