Maradona
Pele
Messi
Pele
Messi
I don't know what's more of a crime; putting CR7 first, a guy with 3 goals and 2 assists in 21 World Cup and Euros knockout games, or putting Pele last, a guy who bested that tally purely on goals (6) in the knockout rounds of a single World Cup at age 17. If you haven't done the research on Pele, just leave him out.
There’s no doubt some serious football fans in here but I’d love to know how many people have offered a ranking without watching Pele or Maradona play 90 minutes of football
We can still have some favorite and indeed it's better to acually watch them. In fact most fans watch just the ones in his team and in a rare ocassion the big CL, WC, Euro Copa match.
I'm an old fart, the only one I didn't watch live is Pele, but is a player that you still can watch tons of footage and like I always said, we have to respect every huge player in their respective period. I trully think that there is not such written in stone only GOAT, yet still we can have our very own favorites.
Regarding vintage players, I recently had some sort of feeling that Di Stefano has been for varipous reasons quite unfairly "forgotten", of coruse Madrid does its job and keep him more or less alive, but digging in his carreer, he maybe should be more often being named.
Puskas too.
The problem with what you are saying is that with these arguments, the debater is trying to claim that a particular player is better than literally every single other person who has ever played the game professionally. That is a LOT of people. So when you get to that level of argument, everything becomes important, all holes in the resume must be discussed.I'm not trying to be a dick, not even close, and I know that you are a Messi fan (like Joe Miller and others), but come on, stop it with the WC/NT thing.
Even as fans, your are doing it wrong, I always felt that way with people fan of Messi talking about stats in their wars against Cris fans.
If Messi didn't win the WC, if he for some reason never even played a game in the WC, he could still be the favorite for anyone in an all time spectrum.
A very differente thing would be mocking a journo, an influencer that used that sort of arguments, but to each to its own, if someone thinks Cris is the best, sthg that I personally do not share even slightly, so be it, it's his taste, it's not like he is saying Piojo Lopez either.
Talking about Cris International tally or such, seems odd, looks bad and three years ago even with Messi (for me) overall having a better internationally carreer in terms of many great perfomances with no cigar at the end, still was odd. Sometimes shyte happens, sometimes in some scenarios some thing never fully happens, sometiems players do not even play certain competitions, etc...in fact normally it's not just in the particular player shoulders, mostly with this off the charts players that deliver day in day out in their club carreers.
I don't know what's more of a crime; putting CR7 first, a guy with 3 goals and 2 assists in 21 World Cup and Euros knockout games, or putting Pele last, a guy who bested that tally purely on goals (6) in the knockout rounds of a single World Cup at age 17. If you haven't done the research on Pele, just leave him out.
The problem with what you are saying is that with these arguments, the debater is trying to claim that a particular player is better than literally every single other person who has ever played the game professionally. That is a LOT of people. So when you get to that level of argument, everything becomes important, all holes in the resume must be discussed.
How can you say that a person who has never scored or created a goal in the knockout rounds of the biggest competition in football is the greatest player of all time? When there other players who have done basically what CR has done and have also managed to do well in that key competition? That's the point.
You mention Messi, and obviously his case has been helped greatly by his late career success at international level. But you cannot honestly believe that if Messi had ended his career without ever winning a World Cup or ever scoring a goal in the knockout rounds of the World Cup, that people would not continue to bring this up in arguing that he had not surpassed Pele and Maradona. Obviously some would still argue that he had anyway, but it would be a nagging doubt in the minds of even his most ardent advocates. Luckily for him, he put that argument to bed. Ronaldo has not, not even close.
I can remember watching a video compiles all the clips where the greatest managers and greatest players of all time state who they believe to be the greatest. I can't remember who came out on top but Di Stefano got far more votes than a modern football fan would think. He was definitely in the the top 3, which were Messi, Pele and Di Stefano but i can't remember the order.
The thing is, he just doesnt have enough weapons to truly stand alongside maradona messi and pele.I'm not trying to be a dick, not even close, and I know that you are a Messi fan (like Joe Miller and others), but come on, stop it with the WC/NT thing.
Even as fans, your are doing it wrong, I always felt that way with people fan of Messi talking about stats in their wars against Cris fans.
If Messi didn't win the WC, if he for some reason never even played a game in the WC, he could still be the favorite for anyone in an all time spectrum.
A very differente thing would be mocking a journo, an influencer that used that sort of arguments, but to each to its own, if someone thinks Cris is the best, sthg that I personally do not share even slightly, so be it, it's his taste, it's not like he is saying Piojo Lopez either.
Talking about Cris International tally or such, seems odd, looks bad and three years ago even with Messi (for me) overall having a better internationally carreer in terms of many great perfomances with no cigar at the end, still was odd. Sometimes shyte happens, sometimes in some scenarios some thing never fully happens, sometiems players do not even play certain competitions, etc...in fact normally it's not just in the particular player shoulders, mostly with this off the charts players that deliver day in day out in their club carreers.
There’s a lot of footage of Maradona around, less so Pele. Maradona the more you see of him, is probably the ‘best’ if you just want pure ability.There’s no doubt some serious football fans in here but I’d love to know how many people have offered a ranking without watching Pele or Maradona play 90 minutes of football
Please burn this word and never use it againThe thing is, he just doesnt have enough weapons to truly stand alongside maradona messi and pele.
His fans point really only to his goalscoring prowess, longevity, being crutch and can score no matter who he players with, to make the argument that he should stand beside the big 3.
However, other than longevity, his record in the ec/wc simply shows that he is not the primealpha for goalscoring/crutch/no matter his teammates, in the biggest moments (ec/wc). Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Well many here over the weekend had him at number 1Jail
No... On a serious note, a psychiatrist institution. It could be a symptom of psychosis
Suggest another word then? Alphaprime, apex predator? God King?Please burn this word and never use it again
BingoSuggest another word then? Alphaprime, apex predator? God King?
Giving me the WH40k vibes now, but maybe in his head he is indeed the god emperorBingo
The thing is, he just doesnt have enough weapons to truly stand alongside maradona messi and pele.
His fans point really only to his goalscoring prowess, longevity, being crutch and can score no matter who he players with, to make the argument that he should stand beside the big 3.
However, other than longevity, his record in the ec/wc simply shows that he is not the primealpha for goalscoring/crutch/no matter his teammates, in the biggest moments (ec/wc). Live by the sword, die by the sword.
This is very long and you've made a lot of points but bringing up DiStefano doesn't work because he never played at a World Cup due to injury and unfortunate circumstances (changing nations etc.). Had he played at 4 or 5 and done basically nothing (like CR), it would harm his case.People can bring anything to the table, but Messi never needed that, like Di Stefano never need to play a single game in a WC or Cryuff to win it. Indeed for many people is need it, but in a strict football sense, it's silly as fvck.
What I mean it's that timing in life is everything and sometimes with certain off the charts players (geniuses, phenoms) things will happen and sometimes not.
In this particulart case, in many ways it just sends the wrong vibes, gloating about sthg that could have go very wrong given how for instance the final went, it's just silly. Yes he has those Cups and perfomances to boot, great, more in such fashion, but as a whole, he never need them for if someone to have him as his alltime favorite. It just starts some sort of stats, titles discussion that becomes silly. There are tones of arguments to be made in chossing Messi above CR without even touching the WC thing.
At the end of the day, Messi could have slot that one agaisnt Germany in Brazil and that combo would have been the icing of the icing of the cake, yet overall he played better in 2022. Maradona could have made the squad in 1978 easily, having one WC more. Pele could have not be injured in 66, the CBF could have backed up Saldanha and who knows what would have happened with Brazil in the 70 Cup or Zagallo keep being stubborn and not align Tostao with Pele, so many things are just timing or outside the players hands.
Even when extreme CR fans focus too much on stats just do not see that if someone like Erling still scores for fun for another 12 years and trashes every record and beyond, for me he won't be a playwer of the calibre of Cristiano, nor that Cris is the first or only player that scored such a lot on daily basis (some players have ratios than Messi or Cris and for long periods of time too).
The thing it's that when the chats, debates, focus too much on those digs, puns, it juts makes everything go south pretty quickly
This is very long and you've made a lot of points but bringing up DiStefano doesn't work because he never played at a World Cup due to injury and unfortunate circumstances (changing nations etc.). Had he played at 4 or 5 and done basically nothing (like CR), it would harm his case.
All the stuff you said about 'what if this or that happened' is all well and good, but that's the harsh realities of sport. The fact of the matter is, Messi's own countrymen questioned him before he won with Argentina. There's millions of Argentines of a certain age who would never have entertained a debate about Messi v Diego. Now they may still stick with Diego, but they have to have the discussion. That's the difference. For them, it doesn't matter what he did with Barcelona.
They did. Personal opinion? Messi is ahead of everyone. If you put all the off-the-pitch stuff of all of them aside, Messi for meThere’s a lot of footage of Maradona around, less so Pele. Maradona the more you see of him, is probably the ‘best’ if you just want pure ability.
I can see why people pick Ronaldo or Messi dependent on what they prefer/value more.
The truth is in 10 years or so there’ll be people arguing about how they are overrated because they played in teams designed to create space and chances for them and they didn’t do much defensively and they spent their primes in a league were there have generally been 2 dominant teams.
The thing is, he just doesnt have enough weapons to truly stand alongside maradona messi and pele.
His fans point really only to his goalscoring prowess, longevity, being crutch and can score no matter who he players with, to make the argument that he should stand beside the big 3.
However, other than longevity, his record in the ec/wc simply shows that he is not the primealpha for goalscoring/crutch/no matter his teammates, in the biggest moments (ec/wc). Live by the sword, die by the sword.
Ronaldo has played 22 games though, other legends would have killed to have 22 opportunities to play in a World Cup match and to only score 8 goals when Eusebio only had 6 and he scored 9 goals. Cruyff only had 7 games and was player of the tournament. The other Ronaldo scored 15 goals from 19 games. Muller scored 14 from 13. Pele only played 14, but made a difference in almost all of them and scored 12 goals. Romario scored 5 from 8. The list goes on. Ronaldo has the most underwhelming record of them all.This is going to another place than the my original post tried to point out. Anyone can have Messi as favorite and discuss about it without restorting to puns or digs about CR's lack of WC or numbers in that competition. Focusing on that, metioning it first, with so much more and more important stuff to bring to the table will always feel wrong for me and a bit silly. And BTW it feels more wrong in relation to Messi than even in relation to Cris.
Ronaldo has played 22 games though, other legends would have killed to have 22 opportunities to play in a World Cup match and to only score 8 goals when Eusebio only had 6 and he scored 9 goals. Cruyff only had 7 games and was player of the tournament. The other Ronaldo scored 15 goals from 19 games. Muller scored 14 from 13. Pele only played 14, but made a difference in almost all of them and scored 12 goals. Romario scored 5 from 8. The list goes on. Ronaldo has the most underwhelming record of them all.
With all due respect I don’t want to be lumped in with the crazies. If someone has Diego at the top of their list that wouldn’t bother me a jot, he was pretty much the top of mine until Qatar 2022. I’m just not keen on CR7’s cult following or the man himself due to his conduct, that’s all. I’m never going to deny he was a brilliant player who did incredible things. And I love football, love top level football and love watching the best players in the game so it’s the sort of discussion I quite like. But I’m not going to go nuts if someone thinks Diego or Pepe are the greatest, I just don’t think it’s fair to use assists as a mark of a striker being a great playmaker, for the reasons already outlined by myself and a few other boysI'm not trying to be a dick, not even close, and I know that you are a Messi fan (like Joe Miller and others), but come on, stop it with the WC/NT thing.
Even as fans, your are doing it wrong, I always felt that way with people fan of Messi talking about stats in their wars against Cris fans.
If Messi didn't win the WC, if he for some reason never even played a game in the WC, he could still be the favorite for anyone in an all time spectrum.
A very differente thing would be mocking a journo, an influencer that used that sort of arguments, but to each to its own, if someone thinks Cris is the best, sthg that I personally do not share even slightly, so be it, it's his taste, it's not like he is saying Piojo Lopez either.
Talking about Cris International tally or such, seems odd, looks bad and three years ago even with Messi (for me) overall having a better internationally carreer in terms of many great perfomances with no cigar at the end, still was odd. Sometimes shyte happens, sometimes in some scenarios some thing never fully happens, sometiems players do not even play certain competitions, etc...in fact normally it's not just in the particular player shoulders, mostly with this off the charts players that deliver day in day out in their club carreers.
I can remember watching a video compiles all the clips where the greatest managers and greatest players of all time state who they believe to be the greatest. I can't remember who came out on top but Di Stefano got far more votes than a modern football fan would think. He was definitely in the the top 3, which were Messi, Pele and Di Stefano but i can't remember the order.
With all due respect I don’t want to be lumped in with the crazies. If someone has Diego at the top of their list that wouldn’t bother me a jot, he was pretty much the top of mine until Qatar 2022. I’m just not keen on CR7’s cult following or the man himself due to his conduct, that’s all. I’m never going to deny he was a brilliant player who did incredible things. And I love football, love top level football and love watching the best players in the game so it’s the sort of discussion I quite like. But I’m not going to go nuts if someone thinks Diego or Pepe are the greatest, I just don’t think it’s fair to use assists as a mark of a striker being a great playmaker, for the reasons already outlined by myself and a few other boys![]()
My list isThis is going to another place than the my original post tried to point out. Anyone can have Messi as favorite and discuss about it without restorting to puns or digs about CR's lack of WC or numbers in that competition. Focusing on that, metioning it first, with so much more and more important stuff to bring to the table will always feel wrong for me and a bit silly. And BTW it feels more wrong in relation to Messi than even in relation to Cris.
Why is that funny? It's a breakdown of their goal contributions in the biggest matches of their careers when the whole world was watching. You can add context to the stats, but the facts are the facts.
My list is
Pele
Messi
Maradona
Ronaldo
I'm not sure why you keep on bringing up Messi, I don't have him as number one, even though I obviously recognise that he has a very strong case (and he did a crazy amount for Barca).
Why is that funny? It's a breakdown of their goal contributions in the biggest matches of their careers when the whole world was watching. You can add context to the stats, but the facts are the facts.
Sorry mate. I quoted the wrong post. I deleted it.Why is that funny? It's a breakdown of their goal contributions in the biggest matches of their careers when the whole world was watching. You can add context to the stats, but the facts are the facts.
Agree with all this apart from 2nd sentence. I happen to know you were 37 at the time.
66 was a special time. Saw 2x games at OT and went to Lymm to watch Brazil training. Watched Eusebio and Portugal training at City’s training ground in Cheadle, most days of the week. The great man gave me a special momento that i still have to this day. George had just starred in the 1-5 drubbing we gave the previously undefeated Benfica in Lisbon on my birthday. Probably the game that brought world fame to him. A ridiculous talent, certainly in the top 5.