I mean all round in terms of movement, strength, aerial ability....not individalability withtheball at his feet......I did put Messi ahead of him,butI do think people are not crediting Ronaldo enough dueto the theatrics and his second spell and interview hereI'm not old enough nor knowledgeable enough to comment on Maradona and Pele but this...
Does he? Please elaborate.
Rank Maradona, Messi, Pele and C.Ronaldo
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I get what your are saying, yet, for me the thing with Messi it's that people tend to forget is the great variety of roles he has played throught his carreer (he was born as an enganche in Argentina, a dynamic10). And the variety of coaches he has dealt with, (BTW many not that great ones, would love to see him with Klopp or Mou) with lots of different tactical dispositions and mates.
Messi like any historical off the charts Genius, at some point, very soon played of himself as a wild card.
In the very same match he would display himself on either flank, from the middle, from deep, as a false 9, as a second forward etc.
I actually believe that Messi is clearly better than Cris as a footballer and it could be seen in games were both faced each other, no matter what team won, in terms of producing all sort of plays that goes beyond a final ball, a pre assist, goals or assists.
In terms of playing in more congested areas, of facing tactics more focused on him by rival teams, in terms of ability with the ball in passing, dribbling, in terms of vision, team work...lots of strict football sense stuff that even as great as Cristiano was, he didn't had at that level.
Yet I still get that Cristiano as a forward is a complete package, regarding the tools avaiable for him because of his traits. But in terms of "more to his game". Not really for me, in fact what happened to Diego, Pele and Messi it's that they end playing as main man of their teams, playing many roles at the same time and closer to off mid players with wild card "tasks", due to the weight of their own talent.
If we actually analyze these free fellas and play a game of what role they could have been the perfect version of it:
Messi is the perfect little forward a la Romario, lethal if a team just used him there upfront as main receiver.
Pele is the perfect athletic stricker and Diego it's a perfect winger, the thing it's that it would have been a travesty to use them in just that role, so they naturally end playing of themselves. That's way many coaches from Messi talk about him as uncoachable, in a general sense you don't tell them what to do or how to do it, as much you give them tools, enviroments to make them participate more and do their thing.
PD: Also as a side note, his right foot has been the main culprit of many of his greatest goals and this is also pretty much not noticed, he has more right footed goals for instance than some elite goalscorers, he ain't a predominant long shot right footed player, but he'll still have quite a number of them, yet lefties indeed are always lefties.
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One battle with these sorts of rankings is determining exactly what qualifies as being the GOAT.
Greatest ball control? Greatest career?, greatest records?
As time rolls by past players exploits are diminished which is natural as generations dont experience the eras some great players from the past played in. It becomes difficult because all we are left with are videos and the writings from those who lived in those eras. The other problem is that comparing players from different eras can miss the differing training, development, support paths etc that evolved over the decades so past players videos might not seem all that impressive when viewed through a current eras lens. Also the differences in various attributes or abilities are often in reality just tiny tiny margins.
Ultimately it comes down to the fine margins seperating peoples opinions and sometimes that is just down to who a fan likes more than anything else, these legends of the game are in so many ways that cloise together its hard to choose.
Greatest ball control? Greatest career?, greatest records?
As time rolls by past players exploits are diminished which is natural as generations dont experience the eras some great players from the past played in. It becomes difficult because all we are left with are videos and the writings from those who lived in those eras. The other problem is that comparing players from different eras can miss the differing training, development, support paths etc that evolved over the decades so past players videos might not seem all that impressive when viewed through a current eras lens. Also the differences in various attributes or abilities are often in reality just tiny tiny margins.
Ultimately it comes down to the fine margins seperating peoples opinions and sometimes that is just down to who a fan likes more than anything else, these legends of the game are in so many ways that cloise together its hard to choose.
No they dont, I put Messi ahead of him and just said ROnaldo has more to his game (also reinvented himself as astriker) and thats why I feel its closert than the general consensus in my opinion. I dont see the argument here, had a few similar comments in response, maybe"more to his game" not takenin the way wasmeant as again, Messi was above himinmy list.....but I disagree opinion wise with anybody thinks he was better than Maradona
I can't elaborate on it, no. I can only repeat what I'd said in the rest of the post that you didn't quote.
I wasn't saying that Ronaldo 'exceeded' Messi at all. My point was solely that he changed a lot more over the course of his career. Starting as an incredibly light weight winger, more about creating - he is actually in the top 10 all time carerr assists despite people saying he's 'just about the goals'. Messi is #1 at that, so again, not saying he exceeded Messi. Just pointing out from the out and out goal poaching #9 that he ended his career (#1 in that), very powerful in the air, was such a radical transformation from the lightweight, nimble footed right winger he started his career as.
Whereas Messi, as similarly complete genius and footballing great as he also is, remained very much a similar type of player and style throughout - barring the obvious slowing down that all players experience. Yes, he also moved around the pitch like so many attacking players now with mobile strikers who switch positions during games. But there wasn't a huge change in body shape and style of player like with Ronaldo - going from a lightweight right winger to an aerially strong complete #9. That's a very different thing than the many attacking players who just rotate positions during matches.
So not in any way saying who exceeded who, just saying I thought there was more of a transformation and different 'evolutions' of Ronaldo's game than Messi's over the course of their careers. That's not saying who exceeded who. Both absolute greats who are justifiably in the conversation of the best ever players.
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I trully believe that every off the charts and great player that was somehow held as one of the best in their respective period must be held in such regard and respect like one of the many all timers or goat or whataver.
I find it trully silly to try to find a single GOAT.
This of course doesn't take away my very own biased opinion based on my taste and prefferences regarding players.
Yep, that's pretty much exactly the point I was trying to make in my first post on the thread. Though I waffled on for longer and was less succinct.
In terms of pure ability? I never watched Maradona live, but I’ve seen loads of highlights.
Can you tell me what you think Maradona has over Messi ability wise?
Yeah Im with you, we have now had so many amazing players over such a long time that choosing just one doesnt make sense to me but I will have my favourites.
Yep, that's pretty much exactly the point I was trying to make in my first post on the thread. Though I waffled on for longer and was less succinct.
Yet I I have to admitt that I still think that Messi is clearly a better player than Cris
and has more to his game. But I know that many people won't be on my view and the reasons I've posted in relation to that view.
I don’t think it is overblown though, I think anyone who actually watched him would realise he was never and out and out winger because a proper winger wouldn’t be in the box arriving in the box anywhere near enough to score those kinds of goals. He does have a good number of assists, but maybe that’s just a by product of being a guy who’s played up front for the best sides in the world since he was 18 right up to about 38?
I’ve seen Ronaldo’s whole career, I don’t remember a great many impressive assists when he was in his goal scoring prime. They would happen, but I think it was pretty straight forward stuff and like I said a byproduct of being an attacker on great sides. Not defence splitting passes or long dribbles and passes etc. I’m not sure it always has to be people searching for a negative, it’s just true. For example I’m sure his assists will dwarf players like Modric, Xavi, Iniesta and Pirlo, but no one can tell me with a straight face that he was a better playmaker than those guys.
But surely most of those played for top teams throughout most of their careers as well? You talk as if Ronaldo's had some kind of false or unusual advantage that bloats his stats in a way that others haven't. Again, just seems searching for a way to downplay an impressive tally - this time assists. You don't get into the all time top ten assist players by complete accident ffs.
Most of the top playmakers / attacking players have had the chance to play for a long time, at the top end of the pitch, and for good teams who'll be attacking and creating chances. If a player was as selfish and disinterested in setting up teammates as you're trying to imply then there's absolutely no way they'd, by complete accident, assist more goals than almost every other player in the history of the game.
At some point there's got to he an acknowledgement that, despite the narrative, he clearly has, over the course of his career, alsonassisted plenty of goals for team mates as well. For heavens sake, the facts and figures are all there. That's 'just true' as well. It's a tough ask to and dismiss / undermine a player being in the top ten all time assists as just a 'by product' of playing for great teams. Plenty of other players throughout history played for equally great teams as well! How didn't they 'fluke' their way to all those assists?
Well there’s no reasoning with Ronaldo’s cult following anyway that’s for sure. But take the example I said, do you reckon he’s a better playmaker or chance creator than the players I mentioned? These players will also have a ton of “pre-assists” too. The problem with going off numbers on their own is, well numbers tell you Lukaku has been a better player internationally than Ronaldo, you happy to go with that based on the numbers?But surely most of those played for top teams throughout most of their careers as well? You talk as if Ronaldo's had some kind of false or unusual advantage that bloats his stats in a way that others haven't. Again, just seems searching for a way to downplay an impressive tally - this time assists. You don't get into the all time top ten assist players by complete accident ffs.
Most of the top playmakers / attacking players have had the chance to play for a long time, at the top end of the pitch, and for good teams who'll be attacking and creating chances. If a player was as selfish and disinterested in setting up teammates as you're trying to imply then there's absolutely no way they'd, by complete accident, assist more goals than almost every other player in the history of the game.
At some point there's got to he an acknowledgement that, despite the narrative, he clearly has, over the course of his career, alsonassisted plenty of goals for team mates as well. For heavens sake, the facts and figures are all there. That's 'just true' as well. It's a tough ask to and dismiss / undermine a player being in the top ten all time assists as just a 'by product' of playing for great teams. Plenty of other players throughout history played for equally great teams as well! How didn't they 'fluke' their way to all those assists?
Or maybe we’re all just sleeping on something obviously and he’s one of the greatest chance creators the game has seen and for some reason most have just been oblivious to it.
It's funny how you were quick to say "I’m not sure it always has to be people searching for a negative, it’s just true." Yet as soon as 'positive' truths come back that you don't like to hear it's "well there’s no reasoning with Ronaldo’s cult following". The same clearly applies just as much to those at the other end of the extreme. There's no reasoning with such a deep rooted desire to always search for a negative, either.
I don't want to turn this into one of those Messi and Ronaldo threads that I don't bother posting on as it's all about "fanboy" name calling. My points on here from the beginning were all about saying how all these greats are in the conversation and I don't get why people feel the need to try and downplay the exploits of any of the true greats just because they don't like them or want to push a different one as #1.
I think both Messi and Ronaldo are true greats and both in the conversation of the sports best players. I'm not interested in criticising the amazing exploits of either of them, or Maradona, Zidane, Brazilian Ronaldo, etc. Whereas it's coming across that you are eager to downplay Ronaldo's career exploits - a quick glance at your postings shows you do spend time on those Messi and Ronaldo threads making digs about fanboys and Ronaldo cults - so it's not the kind of conversation I was intending to have as from the start I've said I wouldn't 'rank' any of the true greats. I'm just happy to say they're all up there, and it's a stunning achievement from them all.
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Maradona, Messi, Pele, Cristiano
Sorry but I gave you the reasons for my thinking, you chose to ignore them and keep bleating about people having agendas and just wanting to search for negatives. He isn’t viewed as someone who is an elite playmaker, do you ever wonder why?
Like I said, I actually explained my thinking and used examples too, I think I was quite fair. Ironically (if you want to talk about irony) you seemed to be determined to ignore what I presented just to block that out and look at the raw numbers as nothing but some positive proof he’s above those other guys who are considered to be elite level playmakers, which is what his cult following tend to do, sometimes pretty aggressively. But each to their own buddy, you have at it.
I've checked your posting history and I see you spend an awful lot of time on those Messi and Ronaldo threads giving similar types of posts - pro-Messi, anti-Ronaldo (Kane another one you seem to spend a lot of time hating on).
Whereas I hardly ever go on those threads and very seldom post on them. So it's clearly you who has a big desire to debate those players, and with a very strong view on each.
Instead, I came on here initially to say how I'm not bothered about ranking any of the players in the 'greats conversation' as it tends to lead to people starting to downplay the greatness of one's they dislike. You're a perfect example of that, and it's not what I'm interested in.
But each to their own buddy, you have at it, and stick to constantly debating them with your clearly very strongly held views. Just don't try and twist it around onto me when your posting history tells the real story.
You could have saved a lot of time by just saying “I don’t know, I’m not sure how to respond to that”. The fact you went gandering at my posts was a bit desperate but hey ho.
Cheers
I could have saved myself a lot more time if I'd known your post history - and what you've spent much of your time arguing about on here - and so avoided getting into debate with you in the first place. If I wanted that kind of ad nauseum debate, I'd spend as much time as you clearly do on those threads. I really don't.
It's really not about "not sure how to respond to that" and much more "very sure I don't want to get any further involved in that with someone who clearly thrives in having the same discussions and making the same pro and anti points about certain players".
Hopefully we'll leave it there, and you can quickly pick it up again with someone else on those other threads. This thread shouldn't descend into that same tired debate.
That doesn't mean much when Luis Suarez in on that list as no.3, when Lukaku and Haaland had more assists last season (2022-23) than Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Zidane than most seasons.But surely most of those played for top teams throughout most of their careers as well? You talk as if Ronaldo's had some kind of false or unusual advantage that bloats his stats in a way that others haven't. Again, just seems searching for a way to downplay an impressive tally - this time assists. You don't get into the all time top ten assist players by complete accident ffs.
Most of the top playmakers / attacking players have had the chance to play for a long time, at the top end of the pitch, and for good teams who'll be attacking and creating chances. If a player was as selfish and disinterested in setting up teammates as you're trying to imply then there's absolutely no way they'd, by complete accident, assist more goals than almost every other player in the history of the game.
At some point there's got to he an acknowledgement that, despite the narrative, he clearly has, over the course of his career, alsonassisted plenty of goals for team mates as well. For heavens sake, the facts and figures are all there. That's 'just true' as well. It's a tough ask to and dismiss / undermine a player being in the top ten all time assists as just a 'by product' of playing for great teams. Plenty of other players throughout history played for equally great teams as well! How didn't they 'fluke' their way to all those assists?
Haaland had 8 assists in PL in 2023-24 seasons, that matches Ronaldo's best in the 7 seasons hes pent in the PL, surely you won't think they match well in terms of creativity based on their assist numbers.
Iniesta has 162 assists in over 800 games, Modric 131 in around 780 games, Lewandowski 153 in around 770, Suarez 285 again in 780 games.
Joel Miller already gave you a well-known answer, strikers have an inflated number of assists purely their position as the most forward players on the pitch. That means nothing about their playmaking.
Otherwise using your logic reducing playmaking to assists Suarez is a better playmaker than Xavi/ Iniesta/Modric/Kroos/Zidane/Ozil etc. And Haaland/Lukaku were better last year than most these names. and Haaland easily matches Ronaldo as a creator in the PL.
If you are interested in playmaking, there's an award called IFFHS World's Best Playmaker. Below are the winners.
Messi - 5
Xavi - 4
KDB - 3
Modric - 1
Kroos - 1
Zidane - 1
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If ranking just those 4….
Maradona
Messi
Pele
C. Ronaldo
Ranking my actual top 5:
Maradona
Messi
Pele
L. Robaldo
C. Ronaldo
Ranking my most talented top 5:
Maradona
Messi
L. Ronaldo
Ronaldinho
Best
Maradona
Messi
Pele
C. Ronaldo
Ranking my actual top 5:
Maradona
Messi
Pele
L. Robaldo
C. Ronaldo
Ranking my most talented top 5:
Maradona
Messi
L. Ronaldo
Ronaldinho
Best
I am not trying to dismiss Messis achievements. He is a genius player, but Cantona and Shearer has got a point. There are fouls and there are fouls. CR7 & Co. would have been obliterated by guys like Cabrini or Winnie Jones who did most of the dirty stuff in a time with less cameras. Maradona would get spit on or fouled when the ball wasn´t even close to him. Pele scored a lot of his goals against inferior competition and Gerd Müller and Puszkas/di Stefano/Cruyff were playing in three teams that dominated their eras. The Real of the fifties and early sixties was in a league of its own. Ajax steamrolled the football world with Rinus Michels total football and Bayern were just a team of galactics during their run.
Not actually true though. Messi started out as a right winger, cutting inside (sort of like what Yamal does now), then transitioned to a more central false 9, then a classic 10. For Argentina he played sometimes almost like an 8, much deeper. Also his passing and playmaking (which is basically light years ahead of Ronaldo's) developed as he got older.
The contrast is maybe not as stark as CR's switch from box of tricks winger to an 'Inzaghi on steroids' type number 9, but it's not true to say Messi never changed, his game changed a lot.
The strength and balance and just the speed of his feet withthe ball sticking to it. He was kickedpillar to post and surrounded by opposition players, yet you could give him the ball anywhere on the pitch surrounded and he would fins a way out....allow him toturn and it was over.
Of course you could put most of thos attributes to Messi and maybe its partly Messi being in a more dominant club sideandnot as dominant for his country in major finals....but what Maradona and early Brazilian Ronaldo could do to the opposition on there own for me was just better and more magical individually....not tosay it wasnt with Messi
Messi is better than Maradona and Maradona is better than Cristiano Ronaldo. I didn't see Pelè and so I can't judge him.
Assists are a useful stat but that is not how you measure a playmaker. Suarez has more assists than Xavi and Iniesta, does that mean he is a comparable playmaker to them?
When i look up best pieces of play by Maradona, I dont really much difference in him.and Messi's abilities. Maradona has that macho gusto vibe, more tricks and backheels, more flair essentially like Ronaldinho, but Messi goes through defenders with just as great ease, their passing is about equally good. Maradona probably catches the eye more because of his flair, but Messi is more the silent genius who is also ruthlessly effective.
I would say the difference is that Maradona was kind of a bit more artistic with his play, and would do and try things that you wouldn't expect. Messi typically does the same things but the defenders just can never stop him.
1 Messi
2 Pele
3 Maradona
Then the rest...
2 Pele
3 Maradona
Then the rest...
Yeah well was Maradona as good as Ronaldo scoring goals?
Maradona may have been a better playmaker, but Ronaldo is the better finisher.
One players strength is the other players weakness.
That's why Ronaldo is easily the 2nd GOAT over Maradona for me.
Also Maradona hand balled to a world cup & had a steep decline after the age of 31 after the use & holding of cocaine; which is actually illegal.
Never the GOAT for me.
Maradona was scored a lot for a nr. 10 who didn't play in any teams that were truly great at the time. Ronaldo wasn't scoring for fun when he was a traditional 4-4-2 winger.
I'll just respond to this one and then leave it, as I got into a conversation with a zealot (going off their post history) on the topic and I wasn't intending to.
But just to confirm: I never in any way claimed that Ronaldo is a 'playmaker' in the style of Xavi, De Bruyne, etc. Obviously not! I'm fully aware of what a ball playing central midfielder is compared to a winger and a striker for heavens sake.
My original point was always just about that throwaway dismissive line about Ronaldo's game solely being about how many goals he scored and how he's disinterested in setting up teammates as he's obsessed with getting the goal himself, etc.
So I was just pointing out that a player who also has something like the 6th most ever assists must also have played their part in plenty of goals for team mates as well! Yes, attacking players will get assists without being 'playmakers' by virtue of their position on the pitch. But there's been endless amounts of attacking players in history, all with the opportunity of getting plenty of assists. It just seems strange that one in the top 10 for them is the one you constantly hear being specifically labelled as 'selfish, anti-team player, not interested in setting up teammates' etc. You don't hear that about Suarez or Lewandoski or any other of the many strikers who have all had lengthy careers playing up top but accumulated far fewer assists than Ronaldo.
But, obviously, yeah there's a massive difference between the roles of a ball playing playmaker like De Bruyne and Xavi and a winger turned central striker, and no-one is claiming otherwise.
Doesn't matter.
Ronaldo wasn't even a striker and is the greatest goalscorer of all time.
The position means feck all because one is the highest goalscorer of all time whilst not even being a striker.
I mean, Suarez has around 300 IIRC, is that 'far fewer' than Ronaldo?
I don't think anyone in this thread has levelled any of the accusations against CR7 that you are listing here, we're just saying he's not as creative a player as the other 3. Which is true. We're not comparing his creativity to that of Lewandowski.
No he was a wide forward without any defensive duties.
Very difficult rate players at different times like this.
The supports that Ronaldo and Messi get on and off field practically make it a different sport at this stage.
Today a player can get a free kick or penalty if it subjectively looks like a tackle or defensive movement might of impeded them. 40+ years ago, you could have the legs kicked off you and you still wouldn’t get a peno.
Imagine Pele and Maradonna getting the protection on field that modern footballers get? You’d never get the ball off them. Imagine them with the supports for diet, excercise, mental health etc.
Put Ronaldo and Messi into a 1970s match, do you think they’d be dancing around or through defenses? They would on their f**k.
The supports that Ronaldo and Messi get on and off field practically make it a different sport at this stage.
Today a player can get a free kick or penalty if it subjectively looks like a tackle or defensive movement might of impeded them. 40+ years ago, you could have the legs kicked off you and you still wouldn’t get a peno.
Imagine Pele and Maradonna getting the protection on field that modern footballers get? You’d never get the ball off them. Imagine them with the supports for diet, excercise, mental health etc.
Put Ronaldo and Messi into a 1970s match, do you think they’d be dancing around or through defenses? They would on their f**k.
1 Pele
2 Maradona
3 Ronaldo
4 Messi
2 Maradona
3 Ronaldo
4 Messi
Yeah, valid points. Especially about trying to compare players who played in different eras.
One thing I'll add about modern players - yes, they're a lot more protected nowadays with aggressive tackles less accepted. But the flip side is that the players are now much fitter with a lot more doubling up, so there's a lot less space on the pitch.
The pitches are the same size, but with fitter players and more subs allowed (so less tiring and opening up of spaces) then it all means it's harder for dribbling players to find that space, and regular one on one duels, that they had in the older times. So, yeah, it's easier to win free kicks and pens for them, but harder to go on as many eye catching dribbles.
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Maradona loved to party, modern football lifestyle would have done nothing good for him, he would’ve still went on benders and who can blame him, it feels great.
If anything, he would’ve been banned from the game very quickly if he played today.
His personality and mystique is part of his charm.
I won’t pretend to be an expert on 1970’s football but I watched enough to see that most of the defenders back then would’ve been League 1 level today.
Messi was on the back end of some pretty awful tackles in his career, it didn’t stop him, he would’ve made 1970’s defenders look like pub players just like he made modern football greats look like pub players.
Some of the players of that era would’ve been great today as well, don’t get me wrong but I cannot fathom how football fans can think there was anyone even remotely as good at football as Messi.
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