Ralf Rangnick's consultancy role has been scrapped

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kthanksbye said:
Yet. Not saying he will, but there's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't. At least with RR he's spent time with the players and knows a thing or two about the squad.
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But lets say you're Erik ten Hag and you read a document saying Luke Shaw is out of shape, unfit and can't carry out the intensity of play required.

What does ETH do with that? Sell him straight away? Or does he back himself to firstly take a view or improve the player? It's not actually that useful. I can't think of what the revolutionary ideas would be in this appraisal that he can't analyse himself.

Like I said I might have been interested but I don't see a problem with the alternate view.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
ETH is in for a rude awakening if he thinks giving the players a clean slate is the answer to our problems. Every manager before him tried that, and all of them failed.
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I'm not sure that is the case. From the sound of things Bailly, Jones, Tuanzebe, AWB, Martial and Williams are free to leave. The problem is shifting these players on their big wages and because we can't sell them quickly, ETH may as well have a look. He's at least made one decision with letting Henderson leave I guess.
 
kthanksbye said:
Yet. Not saying he will, but there's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't. At least with RR he's spent time with the players and knows a thing or two about the squad.
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Yeah he knows a thing or two about the squad but the squad and everyone within Manchester United know a thing or two about Ralf as well.

Seems like everyone involved was happy to let him go.
 
Abraxas said:
But lets say you're Erik ten Hag and you read a document saying Luke Shaw is out of shape, unfit and can't carry out the intensity of play required.

What does ETH do with that? Sell him straight away? Or does he back himself to firstly take a view or improve the player? It's not actually that useful. I can't think of what the revolutionary ideas would be in this appraisal that he can't analyse himself.

Like I said I might have been interested but I don't see a problem with the alternate view.
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That's a very simplistic way of looking at it, you can tell a lot about a person's character and personality when you spent time with them at their lowest.
It's not difficult to see that Shaw is unfit and out of shape, it's important to know what he's doing about it, how is he responding to the fitness coaches, how much interest is he showing to improve himself.

Everything is a bed of roses with the new manager when he gives everyone a clean slate, the difficult part is when the chips are down, when a few players lose form and confidence, when we go on a run of bad results, when the manager has a go at the player after a game for being shite. or points out their mistakes, or asks them to correct something or drops him for a game or two? How does the player respond to that? does he take it in his stride or does he go into his shell and becomes the player he was last season under RR, lose interest and become unfit and out of shape again?

By the time ETH learns that, we'll be in March, he'll be chasing the 4th spot and will have a Europa quarter to worry about. That's when Shaw shows his real colours.

PS - Used Shaw just as an example here since you mentioned him.
 
Abraxas said:
But lets say you're Erik ten Hag and you read a document saying Luke Shaw is out of shape, unfit and can't carry out the intensity of play required.

What does ETH do with that? Sell him straight away? Or does he back himself to firstly take a view or improve the player? It's not actually that useful. I can't think of what the revolutionary ideas would be in this appraisal that he can't analyse himself.

Like I said I might have been interested but I don't see a problem with the alternate view.
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Pretty much. These kind of things will be known within 48-72 hours. Players are tested when they comeback from holidays and tested again during the preseason, it's a standard practice that allows to understand where players are and how they should be managed athletically during the season, in fact it's not even something that most head coaches will focus on themselves, it's the role of trainers who then create schedules for each players and the team as a whole.

The other issue with Rangnick's viewpoint is that he only met the players in a rough time where moral was already down and the players already affected, positively or negatively by the conditioning and preseason methods of the previous staff. If I was ETH I would care more about what Ole has to say than Rangnick.
 
It was a complete shitshow of a decision to hire a consultant as the interim and then fire him after the season ended. In hindsight and all that I suppose.

Regardless of how good a football person he is, he was an absolute trainwreck as a manager. So many better choices out there who could have got us top 4 and made life easier for our summer transfers.
 
LoneStar said:
It was a complete shitshow of a decision to hire a consultant as the interim and then fire him after the season ended. In hindsight and all that I suppose.

Regardless of how good a football person he is, he was an absolute trainwreck as a manager. So many better choices out there who could have got us top 4 and made life easier for our summer transfers.
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Who was willing to join the club for 6 months and would guarantee top 4?
 
JPRouve said:
By 3-4 windows I think that he meant 2 years. 10 players in 2 years is a bit much.
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Yeah that's what I meant too.

And yeah 10 is probably a bit too much but most clubs probably sign 4-5 players every year between the summer and winter windows so he wasn't making a startling revelation, just stating the obvious but it was framed in a sensationalist way.
 
stevoc said:
Yeah that's what I meant too.

And yeah 10 is probably a bit too much but most clubs probably sign 4-5 players every year between the summer and winter windows so he wasn't making a startling revelation, just stating the obvious but it was framed in a sensationalist way.
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Not 4-5 impactful players. You are more likely to get 1 or 2 impacful players every year and then 3 or 4 youth players and obvious duds.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
ETH is in for a rude awakening if he thinks giving the players a clean slate is the answer to our problems. Every manager before him tried that, and all of them failed.
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What was the alternative?

Take Ralf's big dossier that never existed, line the players up and go along them one by one going reading out their names and what Ralf said about them and then telling them ''You're fired, you're fired, you're fired!''?
 
Zen86 said:
Let's be fair, Rangnick couldn't have done much worse.
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That's not the question. If we are actually fair, we can see why Rangnick was the pick, we wanted ETH or Pochettino neither of them were going to move in early December and none of Valverde, Lopetegui or Garcia were signing a 6 months contract. I don't see who else would guarantee anything and also allow us to get ETH.
 
JPRouve said:
I don't see who else would guarantee anything and also allow us to get ETH.
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Sure but the guy you replied to just said there were better managers out there who could have got top 4 not that there was managers available who would have guaranteed top 4.

You could make an argument for nearly any available manager / coach in world football who could have done a better job in hindsight.
 
JPRouve said:
Pretty much. These kind of things will be known within 48-72 hours. Players are tested when they comeback from holidays and tested again during the preseason, it's a standard practice that allows to understand where players are and how they should be managed athletically during the season, in fact it's not even something that most head coaches will focus on themselves, it's the role of trainers who then create schedules for each players and the team as a whole.

The other issue with Rangnick's viewpoint is that he only met the players in a rough time where moral was already down and the players already affected, positively or negatively by the conditioning and preseason methods of the previous staff. If I was ETH I would care more about what Ole has to say than Rangnick.
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Good point, Solskjaer had the majority of these players for 3 years. He was around them in relative good times as well as the bad times at the end, I suspect he could tell them much more about the players on an individual level than Ralf could.

But Ralf is the man to speak to if Erik wants to be debriefed on the British journalists he will be dealing with. As that's where Rangnick focused most of his attention anyway.
 
JPRouve said:
Not 4-5 impactful players. You are more likely to get 1 or 2 impacful players every year and then 3 or 4 youth players and obvious duds.
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Yeah no argument there but it's the same for every manager at every club.

We could have signed 10 big names this summer and there's a very high chance at least 50-60% wouldn't work out.
 
stevoc said:
Yeah no argument there but it's the same for every manager at every club.

We could have signed 10 big names this summer and there's a very high chance at least 50-60% wouldn't work out.
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Agreed which is why Rangnick's comments felt weird, it was never a sensible point to make when you just suggested that the issue was a lack of quality and quality in depth.
 
JPRouve said:
Agreed which is why Rangnick's comments felt weird, it was never a sensible point to make when you just suggested that the issue was a lack of quality and quality in depth.
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A lot of Rangnick's comments felt weird, probably because he was saying things he thought would protect his reputation.
 
stevoc said:
Yeah no argument there but it's the same for every manager at every club.

We could have signed 10 big names this summer and there's a very high chance at least 50-60% wouldn't work out.
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We have signed a billion worth of talent over 10 years and more than 50-60 didnt work out. 1 window or 10 makes no difference
 
Big Ben Foster said:
ETH is in for a rude awakening if he thinks giving the players a clean slate is the answer to our problems. Every manager before him tried that, and all of them failed.
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The attempts to make it ETH's doing are ridiculous. First of all there's no possible way ETH has powers to terminate RR. RR was hired and reported to the DoF. It's not a role the manager has jurisdiction over without the DoF. Can ETH unilaterally fire fletcher? Im sure everyone knows the answer is no. It would never have been the manager's decision if there was actual intention from the club to go through with it.

If we move to the more likely possibility that he influenced it I could see it happening, but this isnt the same as putting the decision on him. Managers don't like extra layers of decision making above them. Left to managers there wouldn't even be a DoF above them. If you're letting them infuence the structure above them you will have none.

If the club wanted to move on for reasons here or there they need to just say so instead of cultivating badwill around ETH this early.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
ETH is in for a rude awakening if he thinks giving the players a clean slate is the answer to our problems. Every manager before him tried that, and all of them failed.
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agree. His time in Manchester will be very short, if results don't go his way. Expecting completely different performances with the same squad is optimistic to say the least. He has to trust some players, but he won't have much time to decide who he can use and who has to go.
 
JPRouve said:
Who was willing to join the club for 6 months and would guarantee top 4?
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No one can guarantee you top 4. But I bet even Carrick would have got better results out of the squad. Let alone hiring some interim who might have been available. Hell, I bet Ronaldo as a player manager would have done better, only half joking.

There is no way this squad is that bad as the results in the last couple of months have been.
 
JPRouve said:
That's not the question. If we are actually fair, we can see why Rangnick was the pick, we wanted ETH or Pochettino neither of them were going to move in early December and none of Valverde, Lopetegui or Garcia were signing a 6 months contract. I don't see who else would guarantee anything and also allow us to get ETH.
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A lot of this is with the benefit of hindsight of course, but picking a manager who needs a particular set of players for a particular system, who has never managed at this level before, was a terrible pick. There's not really any arguing it, he was a square peg for a round hole who should never have been brought in for a 6 month job.

Nobody could guarantee top 4, but I would bet on a long list of managers who would've done a better job than Ralf.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
ETH is in for a rude awakening if he thinks giving the players a clean slate is the answer to our problems. Every manager before him tried that, and all of them failed.
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Actually every manager enjoyed massive success in the beginning, the problem is that they continued to believe in them and failed in the end.

Ideally, ETH is smart enough to identify the problems, but would still ride the bounce long enough to actually make those changes. No manager is going to walk in and immediately replace the entire XI, that's just fan fantasy.
 
Zen86 said:
A lot of this is with the benefit of hindsight of course, but picking a manager who needs a particular set of players for a particular system, who has never managed at this level before, was a terrible pick. There's not really any arguing it, he was a square peg for a round hole who should never have been brought in for a 6 month job.

Nobody could guarantee top 4, but I would bet on a long list of managers who would've done a better job than Ralf.
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He was the worst appointment we ever made
Why would we get a guy who was retired to be our manager ..
 
LoneStar said:
No one can guarantee you top 4. But I bet even Carrick would have got better results out of the squad. Let alone hiring some interim who might have been available. Hell, I bet Ronaldo as a player manager would have done better, only half joking.

There is no way this squad is that bad as the results in the last couple of months have been.
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I posted it before but we finished exactly where we were supposed to finish, we are as bad as we finished the season, we had a purple patch around December-January and that's about it.

JPRouve said:
We weren't in free fall, United has been very stable this season. From October to the end of the season United has been between the 4th and 8th position every weeks, 10 times 6th, 7 times 7th, 6 times 4th, 4 times 5th and 2 times 8th.
We haven't had any free fall and there is nothing suggesting that we didn't end at the position we deserved.
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UpWithRivers said:
And we do? No?
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It smells of a man who didn’t know what to do with our squad so threw his hands up and basically said sell them all and replace them with players that will cost hundreds of millions of pounds. Then he stands around saying I don’t know why these same players won’t listen or run for me anymore.
Ed Woodward would be proud.
 
kthanksbye said:
That's a very simplistic way of looking at it, you can tell a lot about a person's character and personality when you spent time with them at their lowest.
It's not difficult to see that Shaw is unfit and out of shape, it's important to know what he's doing about it, how is he responding to the fitness coaches, how much interest is he showing to improve himself.

Everything is a bed of roses with the new manager when he gives everyone a clean slate, the difficult part is when the chips are down, when a few players lose form and confidence, when we go on a run of bad results, when the manager has a go at the player after a game for being shite. or points out their mistakes, or asks them to correct something or drops him for a game or two? How does the player respond to that? does he take it in his stride or does he go into his shell and becomes the player he was last season under RR, lose interest and become unfit and out of shape again?

By the time ETH learns that, we'll be in March, he'll be chasing the 4th spot and will have a Europa quarter to worry about. That's when Shaw shows his real colours.

PS - Used Shaw just as an example here since you mentioned him.
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But again, what is the output of what you're saying here? You go into more detail but it's still not clear how the manager is to proceed. He can reason that the player is not responding well because the team as a whole is dysfunctional and the current manager is incompetent. He can believe the report. He can not believe the report. Ultimately it's second hand information.

This is why managers generally come in and say there's a fresh start. They may not actually mean that because they've already analysed performances and decided who to trust. But this is their general M.O because everything else is not seen from their own viewpoint which they trust most. Managers have massive egos. So most of the useful information they already have the ability to attain.

The document isn't that useful in my opinion. That's not to say that some of the stuff wouldn't be correct but most of it isn't comfortably actionable for the manager or really advancing an analysis that he can already make.
 
cyberman said:
It smells of a man who didn’t know what to do with our squad so threw his hands up and basically said sell them all and replace them with players that will cost hundreds of millions of pounds. Then he stands around saying I don’t know why these same players won’t listen or run for me anymore.
Ed Woodward would be proud.
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He said that after we were sht not before. The downing tools and not running began even before he got here. They ran for 20 minutes against palace and that was it. So why do you think he was wondering why they weren't working for him? He already knew - they were sht and couldnt be arsed. And even if he said that. So what? Even if Hitler himself came in and called them all a bunch of wasters so what? That gives you an excuse to down tools? Stop excusing the players. Ralf was sht as a manager but saying the truth is not a reason to bash him.
 
So some laughing with 10 players needed, but accept that we need a striker, RW, 2 CMs, RB, and CB. And would be glad with a new LB. That's 7 players. Incredible.
 
JPRouve said:
I posted it before but we finished exactly where we were supposed to finish, we are as bad as we finished the season, we had a purple patch around December-January and that's about it.
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We might not have had a free fall, but we didn't improve one bit under him. He was brought in to stabilise us and improve things, which he spectacularly failed to do.

I can't think of one player who improved under him either. Most importantly, the football on the pitch was abysmal. Not one match where we performed well for 90 minutes.
 
This nicely timed brief from the club puts the departure of rangnick on ten hag when its not his brief to hire or sack employees, secondly it puts the anti and pro rangnick fans at each others throats whilst the glazers take out millions from the club while penny pinching during transfers after a horrendous season.

This is exactly what the club ie glazers want.
 
VidaRed said:
This nicely timed brief from the club puts the departure of rangnick on ten hag when its not his brief to hire or sack employees, secondly it puts the anti and pro rangnick fans at each others throats whilst the glazers take out millions from the club while penny pinching during transfers after a horrendous season.

This is exactly what the club ie glazers want.
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100%. They do this stuff cos they know we'll fall for it.

Part of me still can't believe that there are multiple Rangnick threads at the top of the CAF right now. Love him or hate him, Ralf stopped being relevant to Man Utd the second he left the club. We may as well be arguing about whether Moyes was given enough time. :rolleyes:

The whole fanbase has been played like a fiddle while our squad gets weaker and our club gets poorer.
 
LoneStar said:
We might not have had a free fall, but we didn't improve one bit under him. He was brought in to stabilise us and improve things, which he spectacularly failed to do.

I can't think of one player who improved under him either. Most importantly, the football on the pitch was abysmal. Not one match where we performed well for 90 minutes.
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We were stable and it's not a given that any player will improve within 6 months, it's not a reasonable timeline for these kind of things, during the season a lot of what teams do is based around recuperation. And objectively he failed because I suspect that the hope wasn't to stabilize us since it's exactly what happened but to improve our record which we didn't do beyond early February.
 
Ahahahah they absolutely hated that RR knew exactly how deep this clubs problems ran and they no longer had a puppet to deflect from it.

Seriously only United could hire a guy who is not fit for purpose as a manager but get rid of him when he is going to be strong in his job, a guy who has links around Europe and is good at negotiations and building a club.

Just ask yourself this, Fletcher or Rangnick? I know who i would rather have, it looked like the club finally had a plan, not to mention he was bang on we all know it, this squad does need "open heart surgery" and that blend of experience and football first mindset behind the scenes.
 
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Greck said:
The attempts to make it ETH's doing are ridiculous. First of all there's no possible way ETH has powers to terminate RR. RR was hired and reported to the DoF. It's not a role the manager has jurisdiction over without the DoF. Can ETH unilaterally fire fletcher? Im sure everyone knows the answer is no. It would never have been the manager's decision if there was actual intention from the club to go through with it.

If we move to the more likely possibility that he influenced it I could see it happening, but this isnt the same as putting the decision on him. Managers don't like extra layers of decision making above them. Left to managers there wouldn't even be a DoF above them. If you're letting them infuence the structure above them you will have none.

If the club wanted to move on for reasons here or there they need to just say so instead of cultivating badwill around ETH this early.
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What bad will? If Ten Hag even slightly influenced Ralf’s complete departure, it makes me respect him even more. Ralf was a complete fraud. He made a poorly functioning team even worse. Good riddance.
 
JPRouve said:
We were stable and it's not a given that any player will improve within 6 months, it's not a reasonable timeline for these kind of things, during the season a lot of what teams do is based around recuperation. And objectively he failed because I suspect that the hope wasn't to stabilize us since it's exactly what happened but to improve our record which we didn't do beyond early February.
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Ralf’s record was worse than Ole’s this season… how is that stabilizing the team? He was the worst manager by win percentage since Frank O’Farrell, 50 years ago.

The reason new managers are brought in mid season is to improve results and climb the table. That’s minimal… if that’s not the case, why hire an interim at all?
 
DSG said:
Ralf’s record was worse than Ole’s this season… how is that stabilizing the team? He was the worst manager by win percentage since Frank O’Farrell, 50 years ago.

The reason new managers are brought in mid season is to improve results and climb the table. That’s minimal… if that’s not the case, why hire an interim at all?
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Because we maintained the same form from October to May. That's as stable as it gets.
 
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