Ralf Rangnick's consultancy role has been scrapped

[peridigm]

Maybe ETH bootlegged his brain and told him to feck off.

 

[Roboc7]

It only looks 'bad' for United because a portion of the fanbase latched on to the idea of his consultancy being mega-important.

If you take a step back and consider whether that was ever important to the club (which evidently is wasn't) this move doesn't really matter. It was only ever a bullshit job created out of thin air to keep an interim manager feeling important.

If that is the logic the club used then it looks even worse. If the consultancy didn’t matter then RR never should have even been under consideration, that was the only reason appointing him made any sense.

We appointed someone who isn’t really a coach/manager, whose tactics/playing style were completely different to Ole and not suited to the players we had. He didn’t have any of the qualities suited to being an interim manager and it was a stupid idea to hire him.

 

[Bondi77]

I think he was speaking the truth and the club didn't like it so they have punted him.
Ralf would not have made the decision here as he seemed upbeat about the future of the club but he was too outspoken for the media people at the club.

 

[gerdm07]

I'm okay with this as RR has really not earned any respect as manager. I just hope ten Hag is the real deal calls the shots.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Rangnick has demonstrated he can build a club from scratch. That's a different skill to developing an already established club and team. With respect to Rangnick, why the hell would ETH want him around pass his initial assessments of the team?

People are acting as if the only hope we have of becoming successful again rested on Ralf Rangnicks role as a consultant working a couple days a month? Give over. It's not that deep. Had he actually got a few results on the pitch the conversation might be different, but he was truly terrible, so why should anyone listen to him in regards to the first team? It's not like he's giving out groundbreaking snippets is it? By in large he said the team is made up of mismatches and some players aren't upto it/wanting to leave. Do we really need a consultant to tell us that? Do we need Ralf Rangnick to tell us the club hasn't been run properly for years and that's trickled onto the field? No, we don't. It's bleeding obvious.

Thanks for the effort Ralf but the truth is, you're not needed. Sure another opinion from a footballing person can only be a good thing, however Ralf fecking Rangnick not being at United is most definitely not the be all and end all.

I think he is needed in the sense that he may have connections/access to unearth some young talented players around the globe, which we may need this summer. He may also be the “voice of truth” which may be refreshing rather than having so many “yes man” up in higher ranks, which may be the part of reasons of our downfall in post Fergie era.

For example he tried to push for Luis Diaz and Julian Alvarez back in winter but the club has blocked the moves. There are also some very promising player linked to us which may have happened this summer should Rangnick still in his role (ie Nkunku, Kone).

 

[Boavista]

It makes sense to scrap the consultancy role. If you read the Athletic's article on everything that went wrong during his short tenure with United, it's abundantly clear that Rangnick made mistakes in the way he handled the team, but also in the way he dealt with the higher ups. But I think more importantly it showed that, even if initially the intention genuinely was to take Rangnick's ideas and acumen in club management and rebuilding into account, his attempts to change things behind the scenes fell on deaf ears or were actively ignored and rebuffed. The hierarchy at United is very entrenched, or rather things had already been set in motion to change things before Rangnick's arrival, so his wrecking ball approach wasn't very welcome.

Probably because United's club management around Murtough and Fletcher among others are also fairly new, so they have their own possibly competent ideas, and Rangnick was never actually given the power to push through his ideas, which might be a good or bad thing depending on who you ask. Either way I imagine all that of that led to frustrations, and presumably Rangnick burnt some bridges there. Not unimaginable given his personality.

Personally I think allowing Rangnick to influence and reform behind the scenes could have been a good idea initially, but appointing him as an interim manager made his consultancy role "authority" dependent on how his stint as caretaker manager goes. And him trying to take on both things at once made him unpopular among players, and presumably among the higher ups, as results were lacking. So while it wasn't doomed from the start necessarily, chances certainly weren't in his favour with the way it was set up and communicated. Him failing to get results on the pitch gave him no leg to stand on to criticise and affect workings behind the scene.

And in comes Erik ten Hag, who's ideas of football are quite different from Rangnick's even if the latter perhaps advocated for him. And Ten Hag certainly doesn't need the distraction of the circus that the last 6 months have caused.

 

[sglowrider]

I think he was speaking the truth and the club didn't like it so they have punted him.
Ralf would not have made the decision here as he seemed upbeat about the future of the club but he was too outspoken for the media people at the club.

Maybe the truth but it was just dumb or immature of Rangnick to make it public.

 

[sglowrider]

It makes sense to scrap the consultancy role. If you read the Athletic's article on everything that went wrong during his short tenure with United, it's abundantly clear that Rangnick made mistakes in the way he handled the team, but also in the way he dealt with the higher ups. But I think more importantly it showed that, even if initially the intention genuinely was to take Rangnick's ideas and acumen in club management and rebuilding into account, his attempts to change things behind the scenes fell on deaf ears or were actively ignored and rebuffed. The hierarchy at United is very entrenched, or rather things had already been set in motion to change things before Rangnick's arrival, so his wrecking ball approach wasn't very welcome.

Probably because United's club management around Murtough and Fletcher among others are also fairly new, so they have their own possibly competent ideas, and Rangnick was never actually given the power to push through his ideas, which might be a good or bad thing depending on who you ask. Either way I imagine all that of that led to frustrations, and presumably Rangnick burnt some bridges there. Not unimaginable given his personality.

Personally I think allowing Rangnick to influence and reform behind the scenes could have been a good idea initially, but appointing him as an interim manager made his consultancy role "authority" dependent on how his stint as caretaker manager goes. And him trying to take on both things at once made him unpopular among players, and presumably among the higher ups, as results were lacking. So while it wasn't doomed from the start necessarily, chances certainly weren't in his favour with the way it was set up and communicated. Him failing to get results on the pitch gave him no leg to stand on to criticise and affect workings behind the scene.

And in comes Erik ten Hag, who's ideas of football are quite different from Rangnick's even if the latter perhaps advocated for him. And Ten Hag certainly doesn't need the distraction of the circus that the last 6 months have caused.

With Ralf's propensity to speak in public without a filter, the United management feared that as a 'consultant' he would be leaking any discussions/internal developments to reporters -- since he has no skin in the game. So the first 6 months' audition was useful -- we found out the strength and weaknesses of the fella without much commitment beyond.

 

[The United]

With Ralf's propensity to speak in public without a filter, the United management feared that as a 'consultant' he would be leaking any discussions/internal developments to reporters -- since he has no skin in the game. So the first 6 months' audition was useful -- we found out the strength and weaknesses of the fella without much commitment beyond.

It also sounded like the likes of AC Milan and Chelsea probably knew about those and decided to go with some other choices. As usual, we were the ones who were always late to the party.

 

[The United]

I think he was speaking the truth and the club didn't like it so they have punted him.
Ralf would not have made the decision here as he seemed upbeat about the future of the club but he was too outspoken for the media people at the club.

I think people need to realize that the truth =/= good or improvement in all circumstances. The new management will make mistakes of their own but whatever the mess we were in with Woodward, they knew not to repeat some of it. What they didn't need was someone they hired to consult them to put the club and themselves into a more toxic environment, which would make their takeover a lot more difficult. Whether these guys will be successful in the long term is anyone's guess and it will only be fair to give them some time.

There are no invaluable or uncovered truths that RR was exposing here.

 

[sglowrider]

It also sounded like the likes of AC Milan and Chelsea probably knew about those and decided to go with some other choices. As usual, we were the ones who were always late to the party.

Tbf. The management had not expected to sack Ole. They probably hoped Carrick would stay but he didn't and only had a small window to hire someone that was available -- and that would be in-line with the changes they were about to implement, post-Woodward.

 

[DSG]

possible? Sure. You’d be shooting in the dark to suit your own reading of the situation though, tbh

Total speculation on my part, agreed. But also not impossible.

 

[The United]

Tbf. The management had not expected to sack Ole. They probably hoped Carrick would stay but he didn't and only had a small window to hire someone that was available -- that would be in-line with the changes they were about to implement, post-Woodward.

I think Carrick left because he didn't want to work with RR. If the club gave him the interim till the end of the season, he would have accepted it. I mean he had nothing to lose but everything to gain with the experience on his CV.

 

[sglowrider]

I think Carrick left because he didn't want to work with RR. If the club gave him the interim till the end of the season, he would have accepted it. I mean he had nothing to lose but everything to gain with the experience on his CV.

It would have made more sense to keep Carrick -- smoother transition. But based on the reports Carrick had promised his family time out/away from footie for a few years now. Bet he is regretting it now -- always easier to find a job when you have a job.

 

[The United]

It would have made more sense to keep Carrick -- smoother transition. But based on the reports Carrick had promised his family time out/away from footie for a few years now. Bet he is regretting it now -- always easier to find a job when you have a job.

I think that Carrick decided to leave after he found out that someone else was coming in as an interim and didn't want to work for yet another manager for a short term. Of course, giving time to family is a good excuse to leave but I would think his family can wait for six months for that kind of break from football.

He answered something like everyone had their own style with how to play football and he had his own just as RR did his when he was asked about that. After hearing that, I thought he would leave, and he did.

 

[sglowrider]

I think that Carrick decided to leave after he found out that someone else was coming in as an interim and didn't want to work for yet another manager for a short term. Of course, giving time to family is a good excuse to leave but I would think his family can wait for six months for that kind of break from football.

He answered something like everyone had their own style with how to play football and he had his own just as RR did his when he was asked about that. After hearing that, I thought he would leave, and he did.

Great points.

 

[city-puma]

I think that Carrick decided to leave after he found out that someone else was coming in as an interim and didn't want to work for yet another manager for a short term. Of course, giving time to family is a good excuse to leave but I would think his family can wait for six months for that kind of break from football.

He answered something like everyone had their own style with how to play football and he had his own just as RR did his when he was asked about that. After hearing that, I thought he would leave, and he did.

I think Carrick was forced out by the media, pundits (many are our former players), and fans. At that time, they were saying Ole left and therefore all his team must also quit, otherwise, they are despicable if they don’t. What could Carrick do in that situation?

 

[The United]

I think Carrick was forced out by the media, pundits (many are our former players), and fans. At that time, they were saying Ole left and therefore all his team must also quit, otherwise, they are despicable if they don’t. What could Carrick do in that situation?

Yeah, that was a bit of a disgrace.

 

[Greck]

Murtough was appointed by Woodward so I don't know why people who hate Woodward so much think Murtough was the one thing he did right. Murtough started as Moyes's sports scientist. People omit this because the deductions that can be drawn don't make him look good. Let it sink in that Moyes, known for his dinosaur methods was working in tandem with a sport scientist known as John Murtough. That's the saviour people are championing.

Alright then let's see what happens. So far it just looks he is carrying on Woodward's legacy of questionable hirings and awful contract renewals. Scrapping the consultancy just means the last 6 months was pointless. We should have just acted on time and gone for someone who actually still managed. Might have even had a better chance at top 4. Unfortunately they didn't sound out candidates because according to Murtough they thought it would be disrespectful to do their due diligence while Ole was still manager.

 

[Hawks2008]

>gets interim manager role
>misses top 4
>refuses to elaborate
> leaves

 

[sglowrider]

Murtough was appointed by Woodward so I don't know why people who hate Woodward so much think Murtough was the one thing he did right. Murtough started as Moyes's sports scientist. People omit this because the deductions that can be drawn don't make him look good. Let it sink in that Moyes, known for his dinosaur methods was working in tandem with a sport scientist known as John Murtough. That's the saviour people are championing.

Alright then let's see what happens. So far it just looks he is carrying on Woodward's legacy of questionable hirings and awful contract renewals. Scrapping the consultancy just means the last 6 months was pointless. We should have just acted on time and gone for someone who actually still managed. Might have even had a better chance at top 4. Unfortunately they didn't sound out candidates because according to Murtough they thought it would be disrespectful to do their due diligence while Ole was still manager.

The thing about analysing management decisions from afar -- we will always be 20/20. But if you are in the middle of the fog, its never that clear cut when there are many issues that we are unaware of that may have played into the decision making process.
There are many examples of management of hiring people internally rather than just bring in people who have no experiences or idea of the internal workings of an organisation. Ralf was from the outside and yet failed spectucularly.

 

[DJ_21]

Tbf, no manager after SAF got authority over decisions. It was why the likes of Jose and RR seemed to talk shite in the press.

You just hope that whoever makes decisions now gets most of them right.

Exactly which is why most of our previous managers failed. There had to be a line between knowing what you can have control of and then leaving some parts for people higher up but the correct people.

 

[MrSingh2002]

Square one and final straw with the Owners.

Last proof needed that they couldn't care less about the club progressing on a and off the pitch.

 

[Greck]

The thing about analysing management decisions from afar -- we will always be 20/20. But if you are in the middle of the fog, its never that clear cut when there are many issues that we are unaware of that may have played into the decision making process.
There are many examples of management of hiring people internally rather than just bring in people who have no experiences or idea of the internal workings of an organisation. Ralf was from the outside and yet failed spectucularly.

Are we also going to apply that hindsight 20/20 and give Woodward the benefit of the doubt on his terrible decisions? These guys are getting paid 6 figures a week and they're still handing out large contracts to struggling staff. They are making mistakes in hindsight, foresight, backsight, sidesight you name it. He could have hired redcafe as consultant and we'd have told him not to renew Phelan, carrick, bruno et al.

Also I'm not really feeling that analogy about Ralf failing. That wasn't really my point but if I was to address it I'd say he failed at a role he wasn't even manning at his old club and that was the whole point of elevating him to a different role. As for internal and external appointments, they can come from anywhere, as long as they aren't compelte asspulls like the ones we see here. We even almost had Rio and Evra as our technical directors.

 

[sglowrider]

Are we also going to apply that hindsight 20/20 and give Woodward the benefit of the doubt on his terrible decisions? These guys are getting paid 6 figures a week and they're still handing out large contracts to struggling staff. They are making mistakes in hindsight, foresight, backsight, sidesight you name it. He could have hired redcafe as consultant and we'd have told him not to renew Phelan, carrick, bruno et al.

Also I'm not really feeling that analogy about Ralf failing. That wasn't really my point but if I was to address it I'd say he failed at a role he wasn't even manning at his old club and that was the whole point of elevating him to a different role. As for internal and external appointments, they can come from anywhere, as long as they aren't compelte asspulls like the ones we see here. We even almost had Rio and Evra as our technical directors.

Its easier to judge Woodward simply because he has a body of work ie the past 9yrs. Plus the higher up the role/position in the organisation the more strategic the objectives are. And with any analysis of strategies, it can only be judged from a long term perspective. And ultimately the buck stops with the CEO.

But with Arnold and Murtogh -- they barely sat down at their respective desks.

The fact that Murtogh was appointed as a DOF suggests that there is a different strategic direction -- a decentralisation of authority ie away from Woodward. I have mentioned before -- the fact that ETH insists that he has the last word on transfers indicated that previous managers didn't have that. Transfers were done by committee and as a result, many flopped/ or were sub-optimal due to the fact that they didn't meet the actual manager's requirements.

Plus the contract extensions were based on protecting the player's value. That's a 1000% Woodward's (financially-minded) perspective. And as a result, previous managers were stuck with players they didn't want or limited in their transfer activities because they were stuck with financial limitations of those less optimal players.

We will wait and see if this shift in direction will work or if the right people are there to ensure that it works.

Regardless of whether it's United but when judging the management of United you have to look at it from a 360 perspective. There are financial limitations and therefore you have to make choices based on knowing what the priorities are. Then there are compromises.
Everyone is banging on about how well Liverpool is being run -- people seem to forget that they were shite or poorly run for nearly 20+ years -- making reactionary decisions, chopping & changing directions, and having managers who have diametrically opposite philosophies -- and the generations of legacy players stuck in their respective squads.

Football is a different animal in terms of management -- you are judged by your customer every 3-4 days in the case of a top club like United. (Most CEOs are judged on a quarterly basis only at worse.)

How do you implement strategic changes when there is that constant pressure if the changes you are trying to implement have a hockey curve characteristics?? (ie it will get worse before it gets better)
You need CEOs/leaders who can withstand the pressures to react and forget their long strategic plans and start to be tactical instead. Woodward to me failed in that aspect -- he went tactical and thus we had lots of diametrically opposing managers and the legacy of their players.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

I think Carrick was forced out by the media, pundits (many are our former players), and fans. At that time, they were saying Ole left and therefore all his team must also quit, otherwise, they are despicable if they don’t. What could Carrick do in that situation?

Same with Kieran McKenna, people were baying for blood and coaches who had done a good job for years were hounded out.

 

[bringbackbebe]

Difficult to estimate what was in the United board's mind when RR was hired?

Scenario 1: The club had informal discussions with ETH who'd agreed to take over at the end of the year. Rangnick was the best stop gap they could get.
This is the most likely scenario since the club approached him with a 6 month contract, and later added the clause for 2 year consultancy.

Scenario 2: Rangnick was hired for his managerial ability & was expected to turn our performances around, with the idea of extending his managerial regime by a few more seasons if successful, like Ole. They got rid of him when this didn't happen.
This is unlikely since Rangnick has no managerial basis to manage a top 10 team. He's tactically as astute as a can of water bottle. Someone like Conte was available if the club wanted to go down this route.

Scenario 3: Rangnick was hired for his insights into scouting talent. United extracted the most out of him during this 6 months and felt he wouldn't contribute anything more going forward. ETH must have reinforced this idea.
This is also a likely scenario.

My guess is it's a mix of 1 & 3.

 

[shamans]

Murtough was appointed by Woodward so I don't know why people who hate Woodward so much think Murtough was the one thing he did right. Murtough started as Moyes's sports scientist. People omit this because the deductions that can be drawn don't make him look good. Let it sink in that Moyes, known for his dinosaur methods was working in tandem with a sport scientist known as John Murtough. That's the saviour people are championing.

Alright then let's see what happens. So far it just looks he is carrying on Woodward's legacy of questionable hirings and awful contract renewals. Scrapping the consultancy just means the last 6 months was pointless. We should have just acted on time and gone for someone who actually still managed. Might have even had a better chance at top 4. Unfortunately they didn't sound out candidates because according to Murtough they thought it would be disrespectful to do their due diligence while Ole was still manager.

You're talking a lot about Moyes and his dinosaur methods (and how silly people are) but why don't you elaborate on these "dinosaur methods"? I have a feeling you don't have a clue.

 

[Amir]

It made sense because we had no other options besides Conte - who seems to be persona non grata among the club's hierarchy.

We literally interviewed five people for the interim manager's role, after Conte had already gone to Spurs and before we chose Rangnick. So we clearly had at least four other options.

 

[Amir]

I imagine they thought Ralf would come in steady the ship, gets the players confidence back and finish 4th. They obviously didn't envisage him failing so badly.

I agree, which makes that appointment a dreadful decision.

 

[Amir]

The problem was that the players onboard all downed tools and actively tried to rock the ship from side-to-side.

Any interim manager would have had problems, imo. The only way we could have avoided it was if we'd hired a permanent manager. But of all the managers available, only Conte was big enough.

I'm struggling to accept the idea that the players would actively ruin their season just because the manager was not a permanent one. At the end of the day, they are paying the price. The ones remaining at United will be missing out on CL football and earn less money. The ones leaving are not as attractive to the market while looking for new club.

Other clubs had interim managers and did well, so I don't believe there's something at United that would not allow that. We were simply in a rot and Rangnick was not the right manager to get us out of it.

 

[sglowrider]

Same with Kieran McKenna, people were baying for blood and coaches who had done a good job for years were hounded out.

People are too reactionary -- fans empowered by social media and at the same time companies have become hyper-sensitive to their reactions.

 

[sglowrider]

I'm struggling to accept the idea that the players would actively ruin their season just because the manager was not a permanent one. At the end of the day, they are paying the price. The ones remaining at United will be missing out on CL football and earn less money. The ones leaving are not as attractive to the market while looking for new club.

Other clubs had interim managers and did well, so I don't believe there's something at United that would not allow that. We were simply in a rot and Rangnick was not the right manager to get us out of it.

I think it only shows that they are over-paid and certainly can live/maintain a luxurious lifestyle even without the CL bonuses. The old days of retired footballers using their life savings to buy a pub are long gone. The man-management part is 50% of the game -- motivating the employees. Just tactics and philosophies don't cut it unless we get to the stage where we have robots replacing the players.

 

[roonster09]

All this "he spoke truth, so club didn't like him" are hilarious takes. It's not like ManUtd is running mafia and Rangnick is some secret detective who discovered some hidden documents and truths ffs. Not sure why everything should be so dramatic.

 

[justsomebloke]

WTF? So what the feck was the point of hiring him then since this is what we really wanted him to do. Not be a coach!

This belief that coaching the team for half a year was really just kind of a prelude to the primary purpose of his hiring, which was his consultancy, is frankly really weird. Neither the club or Rangnick has ever said anything to suggest this, and it would defy basic sense.

 

[sewey89]

Meh. Maybe we’ll not hire managers based on twitter recommendations any more. He was dreadful. His only saving attribute was his honesty. I’m not saying it was his fault, the players weren’t putting any effort in whatsoever, but towards the end, I’m not sure Ralf was either

 

[tenpoless]

RedCafe is split

The posters who are waiting for big changes, looking beyond Ralf's record as intertim: Stupid club, indecisive
Ralf haters: Celebrate good times come on (despite of no good times at the club)

 

[Greck]

You're talking a lot about Moyes and his dinosaur methods (and how silly people are) but why don't you elaborate on these "dinosaur methods"? I have a feeling you don't have a clue.

Hopefully you only talk like a bellend in the mornings. You could have asked for examples and I would have promptly obliged with no drama. Imagine calling someone else clueless while having no frame of reference to the goings on from his tenure and the criticisms around his run-heavy training sessions. One of the more known instances was his handling of RVP, a player who was already struggling for health.

Moyes said Van Persie, who joined the squad in Sydney after missing their defeat in Thailand last weekend, was likely to play only in the second half on Saturday.


“We’ve over-trained him this week to try and build up his fitness,” he said. “We’ve not come with a massive amount in the squad and it’ll mean that everyone will play at some time in the game, well, that’s the plan.”

Overtraining a player in his first week back like he's a car. A practice now discouraged for making players susceptible to soft tissus injuries. Dutch coach would describe it best.

The Dutch fitness specialist Raymond Verheijen has criticised the training methods of David Moyes, who claimed to have "overtrained" Robin van Persie "to build up his fitness". Verheijen, who has been employed with Wales, Barcelona, Chelsea and Manchester City, was unhappy.

Through his Twitter account, he observed that Van Persie had been withdrawn with muscle tightness in his thigh during United's friendly in Japan, inferring it to be a consequence of the fitness work he had done in the preceding days.


"The only way to solve this problem in Jurassic Park is to improve education of these dinosaur coaches, fitness clowns & scientific cowboys," he wrote. "All over the world in preseason you see the pattern overtraining-fatigue-injuries'. Always avoid accumulation of fatigue in pre-season."

 

[AlexiV]

So a man with 30+ years of experience of winning nothing significant at all is a total disaster at managing a huge club. Who would of thought.. Our board that's who and our clueless twitterfanbase.

The only good thing to come out of this is finnaly landing a quality manager who might be our ticket out of this mess. God please do not dissapoint Erik.

 

[Kostov]

He talked too much truth I guess.