Then please keep quite. He played the holding role before Frenkie broke into the team
Based on you never having seen him play there you have that opinion, right...
Ralf Rangnick | ex-interim manager | does anyone rate him?
- Thread starter RonaldoVII
- Start date
- Status
Then please keep quite. He played the holding role before Frenkie broke into the team
Based on you never having seen him play there you have that opinion, right...
Am I on a Ajax Forum? No, a United one where Donny does NOT play in that position.
Comparing Dutch league to PL.... if you think its the same.... you need to keep quiet.
Why dont you have a look at evidence. last 2 seasons there are reasons Donny hasn't played, he isnt good enough.
Clearly you have no idea what instructions are put on Mct and Fred.
in 17/18 - Donny played CM where he got 12 goals the season after 17.
YOu must have 0 football knowledge to think that is a DM.
Frankly, the very fact that he's seen as a good appointment by the media and is getting good writeups already is half the battle for a post-Fergie United manager.
Every manager we've had since Fergie has had question marks surrounding them and a narrative against them from Day 1 (Moyes was lack of trophies, lack of charisma and style of football, LVG was his personality and how long since he'd been at the top of the game, Mourinho was style of football, personality and track record of short, tempestuous reigns, Ole was lack of experience and his prior record). The media narrative about Rangnick has been that it's a great appointment, and in a game where psychology matters that's a big difference before a ball is even kicked. Obviously that'll change if the results don't go the right way, but he'll likely get more leeway than previous managers have if we don't get off to a flier.
Every manager we've had since Fergie has had question marks surrounding them and a narrative against them from Day 1 (Moyes was lack of trophies, lack of charisma and style of football, LVG was his personality and how long since he'd been at the top of the game, Mourinho was style of football, personality and track record of short, tempestuous reigns, Ole was lack of experience and his prior record). The media narrative about Rangnick has been that it's a great appointment, and in a game where psychology matters that's a big difference before a ball is even kicked. Obviously that'll change if the results don't go the right way, but he'll likely get more leeway than previous managers have if we don't get off to a flier.
He played a substantial amount of games as an 8 for Ajax.
We do play with 8s and don't really play with 6s. Rangnick system is based on two 8s and two 10s, that's why Leipzig used the likes of Haidara, Sabitzer or Kampl none of them are DMs. Someone like Laimer can do both, he can play as a DM but generally is used as a defensive 8. The basic philosophy is that any player that isn't a CB is box to box, the team is supposed to transition as fast as possible and everyone is supposed to understand the roles of the players next to them and compensate.
I wouldn't say backpassing would account for good passing. McT is absolutely dreadful at this level in terms of passing, I don't know why people are even trying to debate this. He takes too long on the ball, he rarely makes the right passing decision, most of the time he either sideway
You're contradicting yourself in this post, but regardless. We've seen Donny in the midfield position a few time this season and he has impressed. Furthermore, McTominay isn't a holding midfielder, he is more box to box. A holding midfielder would be someone like Matic. And why shouldn't we say that Donny is better? His work at Ajax trumps ANYTHING McTominay as ever done in a United shirt or any shirt for that mater. Despite being given a zero run of games, he has shown way more than McTominay has as a midfielder. What more do we want from this guy? Nobody is sayng he should be a permanent starter, no questions asked. But he should be given a chance (a run of games) to prove he can do a better job. If he fails, he fails. t's not like we're gonna suffer a lot from missing McTominay in the side. But if he succeeds? Wouldn't the club be far more successful on the pitch? I've said it time and time again that the midfielder is arguably the most important role on the pitch. It's the position that has the most impact. And we're never going to control games with a midfielder like McTominay. I agree, he can be a decent option coming off the bench, but never as a starter at this level.
Is Ten Hag going to continue the style of football that Rangnick is starting to implement though?
Same key concepts at least. During his time at Bayern he was also influenced by Pep and Bayerns philosophy in general. Control and gegenpressing always has been a huge part of Bayern ever since Heynckes in 12/13 season.
Also correct
Donny hasn't played much this season. The reason we play McT, he doesnt get forward, its all about the balance of the team.
Bottom line is, we need better than McTominay in midfield.
I don't think Donny is the answer, we have 6 players going forward in this formation, we don't need our CM to get forward.
Both coaches place emphasis on verticality while playing in a high defensive line. And both coaches expect their players to provide a high level of intensity.
There are subtle differences but I don't believe the difference is that big, because ten Hag's style of play is a hybrid of the traditional Dutch possession game style, combined with a fast transition game style, high intensity with emphasis on verticality between the lines.
The way I see ten Hag, he isn't far from someone like Nagelsmann. Both approaches suit the fundations that Rangnick builds which are a clear understanding of aggressive and high press, tactical flexibility and a high defensive line. Then depending on the players at your disposal you can go with something more or less direct, in a way you can look at the spectrum of approaches from Rangnick to the most possession oriented versions of Dortmund/Liverpool under Klopp or Tuchel. People should keep in mind that Rangnick ideas aren't that restrictive.
McTominay often goes forward, I don't know where you get that. The only good moment he had in his last game was when he was in the box and used a backpassed for Dalot's chance. He's box to box man, he's not holding. I don't know where you get that idea from.
How do you know Donny is the answer or isn't? We've barely seen him play and when he has, especially this season, he has impressed. I mean, this is like saying Sancho shouldn't start because Ole benched him for almost his entire tenure here.
Going forward to the edge of the box does not mean box to box. Donny gets in the box, as seen from his goal against Watford. They are 2 different players.
I suggest you watch Neville's MNF analysis which shows what we require our 2 CM's to do.
Also that is fake, Sancho played more minutes than Donny, so I dont know where you getting that from. Carrick in his 3 games started Sancho every game too but Donny only 1.
Umm, that's precisely what I'm talking about. Go back and rewatch the game. McTominay was IN the box when he made that pass. He's not a holding midfielder. I don't know how else to explain this.
What does Neville's analysis and what we need have to do with anything here?
And finally, Sancho didn't play more minutes. Ole started him in 1-2 games, proceeded to sub him off and then benched him for the entirety of his tenure here this season. Carrick gave him a chance, but I do wonder whether that was because he believed in Sancho or because Greenwood got COVID. By your logic, since the manager didn't believe in Sancho, Sancho shouldn't have any place in the team. It's bonkers. We don't know what Rangnick is gonna do, it's still too early to say. But to discount Donny because the manager hasn't trusted him is absurd. If he gets benched on merit, fair play. I nor anyone here will care one bit about it. But when he is benched despite being absolutely deserving of a run of games this season (based on his few performances he's had), then it doesn't make sense to me. McTominay has absolutely zero credit in the bank to start games. If it's not Donny, play Mejbri in that position, see how this goes. But something has to change because he is not on the level as a starter for United. It's as simple as that.
Its quite funny when people see a player in the box means he is a box to box, then show me 1 instance in a 90 min game.
If Maguire goes in the box once in 90 mins is he a box to box CB?
Also, I am not sure what you are talking about here. Until Ole was sacked Sancho played 655 minutes and Donny 199 minutes. Clearly if you work out the maths, he played 3 times more than Donny, but ofcourse that dont fit your narrative.
You can change things but playing players for the sake of playing them won't help. We need to sign another midfielder.
Anyway, if Donny is as good as you all are saying in that role, Rangnick should be playing him in that position in the coming weeks.
Lets see.
Didn't Rangnick himself post game refer to McFred as "two 6's"
Oh God, why are you taking everything so literally? Of course he was multiple times n the box. I just gave one as an example because you specifically said he never went to the box which is plain wrong.
First, are you counting the Carrick games here? Second, Sancho obviously played more because he is a newer player, but you cannot argue for argument sake that he was a starter. Aside from the initial 2-3 games, he was almost always on the bench. Period. People were even making jokes that now that Donny was going to leave, Sancho was taking his seat on the bench. Now all of a sudden you want to convince everyone here that he was a starter.
Of course we need to sign another midfielder, but that isn't happening until the summer.
He may have but the roles aren't two actual 6s in the sense of holding midfielders. It's one of those numbered positions that varies depending on what someone means and in that conversation Sviken and Romufc clearly mentioned holding midfielders. In Rangnick systems the "6s" aren't* holding midfielders they are what you would traditional consider an 8.
*They can play as actual 6s like Laimer or Demme sometimes did.
Yeah, I think it's different the way 6 is used by UK people and Germans. Tuchel also said Kante is a 6.
We tend to call every midfielder who plays the deepest position in the midfield a 6, no matter if he plays a holding role or has the license to go box to box. Lots of teams use two 6s in that sense, where both are allowed to move forward, but usually not together, as one has to secure the space in behind. So in those setups it changes all the time who is the 6 and who the 8, and we fall back to calling them a 6 per default.
I don't know if it's German as such but depending on people and their football upbringing they will use a different mix of WM/442 nomenclature. In WM an holding midfielder can be a 4 or a 6, in 442 it's a 6. The box to box is 8 or a 10 in WM but only an 8 in 442.
Think I’ll just call him Ralf 
In Tuchel's interview with Rio, he said he plays with 2 6s because of the profile of CMs available. Jorginho and Kante can't be 2 very different CMs if they tried, so I think @stefan92 nailed it. Maybe they call deepest CMs as 6 no matter if they play holding role or with license to bomb forward at times.
Yeah, it makes sense. They don't use the numbers for a role but for an area which makes their use of numbers pointless in a conversation about roles.
Yes because a player can only be judged on what they have done at United and not their whole career, right ok.
Right ok, if we're doing that.
You must also have 0 football knowledge to think McTominay is a DM
Yeah, maybe that's the case. Few use it for a role whole others use it for the zones/areas.
Anyways on the topic in hand, looks like RR wants dynamic CMs who can close down quickly and cover lot of ground.
And can transition the ball forward and play incisive forward passes. This is one of the main differences between Ole and Rangnick, its not only about what they do off the ball
Oh come on Ralfy baby, sign us a midfielder in January, you know you wanna.
We also often hear managers speaking of "6 space" or "10 space" to describe those areas of the pitch.
Yep, just the same thinking as professional coaches in Ole, Carrick, Rangnick.
Here you go: Scott McTominay Scouting Report | FBref.com
As you see, he ranks okay for progressive passes and progressive passing distance. He also has actually a very good pass completion rate (86,9%, 74 percentile). He's not rubbish, he's just not very good. So come off it here - it's hard to discuss McTominays actual shortcomings when we have to focus instead on your insistence on absurdly exaggerating them.
Carrick… ok. And you’re including Rangnick after half a training session. Right ok….
He’s not rubbish, he’s just not very good…. Right ok
Point seems moot. He isnt good enough for us
Are you trying to say you have more knowledge than them? Whatever you think of Ole, there is one thing clear, I would take his football knowledge over yours.
No I am saying his coaches at Ajax probably did
The entire profile tells you that he is not good at all, if you compare it to Fred it's a bloodbath. His passing stats points to an average to below average PL midfielder.
What did you want? For the commentator to say "David Beckham" with an Italian accent?
The hatred for McTominay here is actually ludicrous. He's nowhere near as bad as people seemingly want him to be.
We should be looking for better in the starting XI but he'll be an excellent squad player here for years and I imagine every manager will love him.
We should be looking for better in the starting XI but he'll be an excellent squad player here for years and I imagine every manager will love him.
- Status