You’re going on a bit of a tangent here but the idea that a country with a history of dubious foreign policy can’t call out racism is one of the dumber ideas in a thread full of dumb ideas. Should the English national team have kept quiet about the monkey noises aimed at their black players because of England’s colonial past?
Racism incident in PSG v Istanbul match
- Thread starter Theafonis
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You’re going on a bit of a tangent here but the idea that a country with a history of dubious foreign policy can’t call out racism is one of the dumber ideas in a thread full of dumb ideas. Should the English national team have kept quiet about the monkey noises aimed at their black players because of England’s colonial past?
Asking for elaboration on as bold a statement as "Turkey is one of the most racist countries out there" isn't tantamount to wanting to earn the moral high ground on racism issues.
And nothing that a few chest-beaters do to stoke their support base in times on economic uncertainty can even begin to truly undermine the legacy given to this country by its founder.
The theatricality does bother me. Rio Ferdinand was on the money when he refused to take part in Kick it Out campaigns and spoke out on England having to do their homework before lecturing other countries.
Anyone is free to denounce racism but there are instances when it does sound a bit rich and/or incoherent.
In this instance, credit to Basaksehir for employing a black assistant coach in the first place. Can't think of many out there.
It was the lino all along and the other guy got the whole thing in his face. Amazing.
Not never in any circumstances. My oldest daughter has friends with different skin colours, and of course she mentions that in relevant contexts, and of course it's visible when she draws her friends. We are not raising them to be colourblind: from research I've read, this does not reduce racism, and is in fact counterproductive. (In particular: if you don't notice race, you also can't notice racist behaviour in others.)
I just don't want my kids using race as an identifier. While there are many non-white people in my community, the majority is white, and so we would likely only single out non-white people by their skin colour. That way, we are implicitly confirming their otherness, and I don't want that. To my knowledge, that connects to how racism works from an unconscious bias point of view.
I don't think anybody has said that the word "black" should never be used in any way and I assume @Cheimoon doesn't think that, but when in the context it's used seems unnecessary.
Like if I refer to a Caf poster saying something, "Let's listen to xxx because being black they've experienced it in real life before more than white people", I don't think they'd have a problem, whereas if I said "Let's hear what xxx, the black bloke, has to say." it would be a different story.
I just think lumping everyone of a specific nationality in together, in terms of their morals, is bordering on racism in itself. Turkey may be a country with lots of problematic ideoogies but for all we know the individuals involved are progressive, decent people. As you say, credit where it’s due for hiring a black assistant manager in the first place.
I think what that referee did is wrong, but I always found it far more offensive when people here compare Bale with monkey. It's definitely far worse insult than something like calling Demba Ba a black guy in that situation, but yet for some reason that's completely acceptable here, and in England by the looks of it.
That’s interesting but now how I’d approach it. I want my kids to acknowledge and discuss different ethnicities and help them learn and use the correct language when discussing something potentially sensitive like this. I don’t think ignoring or trying not to mention race when discussing their friends and peers is the best way to deal with it. I could be wrong though. I’m far from an expert and we’re all just muddling along here!
Why does nobody seem to care that somebody from the bench called Romanians gypsies. Why are Istanbul not tweeting about this issue, why is Mbappe not? Genuine question.
If it happened I care and Webo should be sanctioned but the issue is that the journalist that reported it was busy tweeting all night long and came up with that one today.
Because it got completely swept under the rug for the most part, I doubt they even know about it. I wouldn't have known if I wasn't on this thread as I didn't hear it live, it's actually a worse offense than what happened with the Romanian referee.
I know, right! At some point, I thought colourblindness would be a good thing - only to be corrected soon after. I read about racism whenever I come across stuff, but it's hard to know everything - plus insights change anyway. I think the most important thing, though, is to be very conscious and to try and get it right. That's anyway pretty much all you can do, short of becoming a racism specialist yourself. (Only so much time in life!)
I agree that those conversations are super important. We've also had chats about racism, and what it means and what she could do when she sees it. Similar for white privilege. (My youngest is too young for that; and my eldest is also below 10 - so they're not super deep discussions.) But I don't want to stress them out with the subject either, especially since my daughter has lots of non-white friends (to be clear, I'm saying non-white because they have different skin colours; I'm not trying to avoid the word 'black' at all costs), and she shouldn't worry about them unduly or start bothering them with it. Still, I do want her to be conscious of this - especially since she apparently tends to take on leadership roles in class, so she can make a difference. It's a fine balance!
Urgh, so much to consider as a parent.
Clearly people care but my guess is most don't know since that's not what the press have reported about. I and many here have said that it's horrible and whoever said it should be in trouble
In the video that I heard, it's not Webo's voice. Someone said in my country roumanians are gypsies though, I think that it's the one who said, "it's champions league, not Romania."
Yes, yes and yes.
Most people don’t know, but Germany (post WW II) had former nazis serving as chancellor and as a head of a federal state. Lot‘s of nazis had a successful career in the legal sector (many judges and state prosecutors), in the industry (anyone driving a VW?)... unfortunately the cold war got in the way of a proper punishment of a lot of nazis. Helmut Kohl was in my eyes a cold blooded racist - chancellor of Germany for 16 years until 1998. It got better since, there are many positive developments even among conservatives now. But, there is still racism in Germany. Sorry, for sidetracking the thread ;-)
Its very very clear on the video assuming the video isn't doctored which it doesn't seem to be.
This mindest is Critical Race Theory - 101. Sounds like you just finished reading "White Fragility".
But it doesn't sound like Webo, it does sound like the guy that was just next to the fourth referee though and that guy said other weird things. I posted the video but don't know if people can see it, he sounds like a proper weapon.
PS: I'm not saying that Webo didn't, just that in the videos I saw it was someone else.
Thanks.
I did read it, but it's not that helpful in my view. But if you're trying to make a bigger point or have suggestions for how I can do better, I'm always interested.
But if people's primary concern is racism it doesn't matter if it was Webo or not. How are high profile people and associations getting away with this utter hypocrisy, its a disgusting comment and patently offensive
I know, right! At some point, I thought colourblindness would be a good thing - only to be corrected soon after. I read about racism whenever I come across stuff, but it's hard to know everything - plus insights change anyway. I think the most important thing, though, is to be very conscious and to try and get it right. That's anyway pretty much all you can do, short of becoming a racism specialist yourself. (Only so much time in life!)
I agree that those conversations are super important. We've also had chats about racism, and what it means and what she could do when she sees it. Similar for white privilege. (My youngest is too young for that; and my eldest is also below 10 - so they're not super deep discussions.) But I don't want to stress them out with the subject either, especially since my daughter has lots of non-white friends (to be clear, I'm saying non-white because they have different skin colours; I'm not trying to avoid the word 'black' at all costs), and she shouldn't worry about them unduly or start bothering them with it. Still, I do want her to be conscious of this - especially since she apparently tends to take on leadership roles in class, so she can make a difference. It's a fine balance!
Urgh, so much to consider as a parent.
Yeah, it’s tough. I’m optimistic that it won’t be too big a deal for my kids. The best way to avoid being racist is to grow up with an ethnically diverse peer group. And the difference in terms of diversity between Ireland now and my own childhood in the 1980s is enormous. So if I managed to find a way to be a reasonably sensitive and tolerant person I don’t have too many worries about my kids achieving the same.If you read the thread you will realize that it's not people primary concern and that information only came out after most people had already posted. But it's clear that you are trying to create your own outrage.
Atatürk's one demand on his deathbed was that Turkey wouldn't join WWII. Anything I've ever read about it, this included, will forever make me thankful to him for that alone.
Yeah, that too. Diversity will be completely normal for my kids, and 'interracial' couples are also super common (which it wasn't where and when I grew up). They'll probably be better people than me without even trying.
(Well, in this regard. I'm sure I'll claim my moral superiority on most other things when I'm of boomer age. )I think when you say the 'black guy' or something like 'the black one' it makes it impersonal and thus rude if it's an environment you're expected to be more formal and/or educated. You could describe someone as the man/person/gentleman with black skin and that makes it a lot less likely to be interpreted as something derogatory. Anyway I wouldn't qualify anyone for being racist just from those lines but in language and communication there are more variables when you deliver the message like voice tone, attitude, overall demeanor, etc. and like you pointed out it's also varies depending on the country and language.
Anyway this whole thing definitely blew out of proportion and in a case like that where someone gets upset because of you refering to him as the 'black one' I would consider offering a sincere apologize would be more than enough to solve the issue. So it's crazy how everything escalated like it did.
@Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær
Wasn't aware of that part. If it was said like that, I get your point from earlier today.
You've completely lost me and clearly not read any other posts I've made in this thread?
What am I thinking I am right about? That if someone goes into a different cultural setting professionally they should at least have education and respect towards that culture? I would say the same thing to someone going to Poland, Russia, Japan or Romania.
So what's you point against me exactly?
Mostly agree, but it is the official’s business setting. It’s not a Sunday pub league, it’s a multi billion dollar company showcasing its product.
Because you can’t be racist towards people who’s skin color is white. According to society at least.
What a load of shit.
Even if people of different skin colours are telling you that they find it offensive?
Also are you saying Mbappe can't object to racist abuse because PSG has Qatari owners? That's utter drivel even for this thread.
I thought they walked off the pitch yesterday in support of Luka Doncic who got called a “bithc ass white boy” without any sanctions for the player that said it.
What is the actual word the 4th official used?
"Negru" - black colour ,no other context in Romania
Imagine the shock Demba Ba will experience when he finds out the name of that one former Yugoslavian country and the name of that little sea north of Turkey.
Shouldn't there be a "?" in the title.
But than again, why would it matter, the dude will be getting punished anyways, and will probably be called racist for the rest of his life, because he called a black guy, black .
But than again, why would it matter, the dude will be getting punished anyways, and will probably be called racist for the rest of his life, because he called a black guy, black
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